1269 réponses à ce sujet

[Nameless one7]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Having just finished reading the books, all I can say is... wow. Why haven't I read this earlier?!

Edit: It shows that DA:O was trying to be this, though it's a shame they moved away from that.

Your not the only one who didn't read this as early as they should of, I saw the HBO preview and read all the books, now I need to read the short stories on A song of fire and ice.

[AxisEvolve]

Addai67 wrote...

With the TV show you might be surprised at how many people show up to an appearance. He gets them in the thousands now.

I have no idea why people criticize him- he's the most laid back guy and very good to his fanbase. Complaints about him being fat? Screw them. With "fans" like that who needs enemies.

From my experience partaking in literature related discussions, I've found it's mostly people (elitists) who dislike science fiction/fantasy books in general that have a serious beef with him. ASOIAF is just the most popular lately so a lot of the times it appears "cooler" to go after them, but it's mostly a scapegoat for the genre. People who read fantasy may not all like him, but they are mostly polite about it. I'd say a lot of people that critize him don't even try and claim that his books are terrible, just that they aren't as good as people say. Because everyone knows the guy is talented.

[Brockololly]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Having just finished reading the books, all I can say is... wow. Why haven't I read this earlier?!

Edit: It shows that DA:O was trying to be this, though it's a shame they moved away from that.

Yeah, I only read the A Game of Thrones early last year before the HBO series started, then read the rest last summer.

They really are fantastic books though and you can definitely see parallels in some of the things in Origins to Song of Ice and Fire. I really wish BioWare would have tried to stay in the more grounded fantasy type of setting than whatever they ended up doing with DA. Seems like both series are basically going the same route, what with more magic entering their respective worlds, but GRRM has done a much better job in the sense that he took the time to establish an interesting world without the supernatural stuff in your face but with good characters and plots.

[Addai]

AxisEvolve wrote...
From my experience partaking in literature related discussions, I've found it's mostly people (elitists) who dislike science fiction/fantasy books in general that have a serious beef with him. ASOIAF is just the most popular lately so a lot of the times it appears "cooler" to go after them, but it's mostly a scapegoat for the genre. People who read fantasy may not all like him, but they are mostly polite about it. I'd say a lot of people that critize him don't even try and claim that his books are terrible, just that they aren't as good as people say. Because everyone knows the guy is talented.

Oh yeah, those people came out of the woodwork for the TV series, too.  Like the infamous "I don't know any woman who would watch this" review.

But GRRM has this certain contingent of... how shall I put it....  very serious fans who express their appreciation for his work by lambasting him and saying that he's a traitor to the characters and other such drivel.  They devote whole hours of their life to creating websites for this purpose.  All because they "love" the series.

[TJPags]

AxisEvolve wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

With the TV show you might be surprised at how many people show up to an appearance. He gets them in the thousands now.

I have no idea why people criticize him- he's the most laid back guy and very good to his fanbase. Complaints about him being fat? Screw them. With "fans" like that who needs enemies.

From my experience partaking in literature related discussions, I've found it's mostly people (elitists) who dislike science fiction/fantasy books in general that have a serious beef with him. ASOIAF is just the most popular lately so a lot of the times it appears "cooler" to go after them, but it's mostly a scapegoat for the genre. People who read fantasy may not all like him, but they are mostly polite about it. I'd say a lot of people that critize him don't even try and claim that his books are terrible, just that they aren't as good as people say. Because everyone knows the guy is talented.

The man is certainly a talented writer.  His books are really some of the best I've read.  Ever.

My only complaint - and personally, I think it's actually the biggest complaint most fans have with him - is that he takes an inordinate amount of time to write each book.  Did you realize that Game of Thrones was originally published in 1996?  That's going on 16 years, with 5 books . . .and much of that time has been taken up with the last 2.

That's really my only serious complaint with him.  Yes, I can complain half-heartedly that his recent books seem to going a bit magic heavy (something that IMO was much less prevelant in earlier books) and things like that, but my main complaint is that, for a man who's profession is "writer", he takes forever to write.

[AxisEvolve]

TJPags wrote...
The man is certainly a talented writer.  His books are really some of the best I've read.  Ever.

My only complaint - and personally, I think it's actually the biggest complaint most fans have with him - is that he takes an inordinate amount of time to write each book.  Did you realize that Game of Thrones was originally published in 1996?  That's going on 16 years, with 5 books . . .and much of that time has been taken up with the last 2.

That's really my only serious complaint with him.  Yes, I can complain half-heartedly that his recent books seem to going a bit magic heavy (something that IMO was much less prevelant in earlier books) and things like that, but my main complaint is that, for a man who's profession is "writer", he takes forever to write.

Haha, I agree.

But I'd rather wait for an epic book than have him rush them.. It seems I enjoyed the last two more than most people did. But they certainly could have been much better.

However I think Winds of Winter will be incredible... He's no longer adding any more major characters so stuff is finally going to go down.

[Maria13]

Seeing the first ep of season 2 tomorrow here in the UK...

I've been thinking (always dangerous!). Why would they diverge from the books and portray Shae as they did? You know, witty, cultured, possibly NOT poor...

Methinks it's because they're setting her up as Tywin's agent to spy on Tyrion... Tywin telling Tyrry not to take her to King's Landing was reverse psychology, of course... And when Tyrry discovers she's been in cahoots with daddy all along... Well, that may be a good justification for her murder...

[Maria13]

GodWood wrote...

jcainhaze wrote...
Oh God I so hope Littlefinger dies a horrible death.

He's one of my faves personally.

He knows how the game is played and he's a pro at playing it. Also I quite like his love story.

Single-handedly instigating a massive civil war, resulting in the suffering and death of millions, just so he could get the husband of his childhood sweetheart disinherited, banished, and (most importantly) get their marriage invalidated so he could then pick her up on the rebound after having gathered enough power and wealth on the side to make a socially acceptable marriage proposal to a Noblewoman of her status.

It's so romantic ... in a twisted sort of way.

One of mine, too.

I'm team Littlefinger!

But I don't quite share the romantic view you express.  I think he's fallen into the trap of loving the game and all the plotting forgetting what his objective was in the first place... Sooner or later he may have to choose between Sansa or power and that will be an interesting challenge... Or he'll manage to change Sansa into a player and she'll defeat him (you know, the Nimue Merlin thing), or he'll stop loving her once she loses her innocence...

[Nameless one7]

Maria13 wrote...

Seeing the first ep of season 2 tomorrow here in the UK...

I've been thinking (always dangerous!). Why would they diverge from the books and portray Shae as they did? You know, witty, cultured, possibly NOT poor...

Methinks it's because they're setting her up as Tywin's agent to spy on Tyrion... Tywin telling Tyrry not to take her to King's Landing was reverse psychology, of course... And when Tyrry discovers she's been in cahoots with daddy all along... Well, that may be a good justification for her murder...

I think you may be right about Shae..

[Brockololly]

Maria13 wrote...

Seeing the first ep of season 2 tomorrow here in the UK...

I've been thinking (always dangerous!). Why would they diverge from the books and portray Shae as they did? You know, witty, cultured, possibly NOT poor...

Methinks it's because they're setting her up as Tywin's agent to spy on Tyrion... Tywin telling Tyrry not to take her to King's Landing was reverse psychology, of course... And when Tyrry discovers she's been in cahoots with daddy all along... Well, that may be a good justification for her murder...

Could be... I was rewatching Season 1 this past week and remembered how I didn't like how they portrayed Shae in the show. I don't really understand why they bother making her all mysterious unless they're going to give her a bigger role.

I'm guessing that'll be an annoyance of mine going forward too, seeing as they seem to be altering some characters from the books. Like how Jeyne (at least this is what I read as a rumor) isn't Jeyne Westerling but is from Volantis? What purpose does that serve? Or how it seems they're making Margaery more of an outward political schemer than she is in the books....

I guess its just best to keep thinking of the show as the Cliff Notes version of the books and to keep in mind that its an adpatation.

[TJPags]

Maria13 wrote...

Seeing the first ep of season 2 tomorrow here in the UK...

I've been thinking (always dangerous!). Why would they diverge from the books and portray Shae as they did? You know, witty, cultured, possibly NOT poor...

Methinks it's because they're setting her up as Tywin's agent to spy on Tyrion... Tywin telling Tyrry not to take her to King's Landing was reverse psychology, of course... And when Tyrry discovers she's been in cahoots with daddy all along... Well, that may be a good justification for her murder...

Agreed.  This, and several other similar things, are my major complaint with the show. 

The books are great (my complaints about how long they take notwithstanding).  The show is great.

But I guess, as Brock mentioned, I have to remember it's an adaptation, not a true show telling the books.

She is clearly different than in the books . . .much more obvious a schemer.  Makes me wonder if Bronn is in cahoots with her and Tywin, a thought I didn't have in the books until much later.

Melisandre came across much more heartless in her scene with Crassen than she did in the books (IMO).  Joffrey is more obviously out of control, even with his mother (I had the impression in the books he was generally more considerate of her).

They seem to be going for a more blatant approach on this show than the books.  I suppose it may be necessary for TV, to hook people, keep the big ratings, etc . . . it's just somewhat disappointing.

[Maria13]

Thanks for sharing!

I don't mind it really... TV, films, novels they have different structural set-ups and codas...

I am more than impressed by how they've done so far.

Roll on 9:00 pm tonight!

[Addai]

Ok let's use this thread for discussion of the TV series that would be spoilerific for those who are just watching the TV show.

THIS IS A SPOILER WARNING FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T FINISHED THE BOOKS.


I have a question on how we see things developing in season 2 versus A Clash of Kings. Mainly I'm wondering how they are going to account for there being no Meera and Jojen Reed (*pause to mourn their absence*). Osha is being set up as the one who knows about Bran's green dreams. So are they going to have Rickon and Bran together with Osha and Hodor going north??

[AxisEvolve]

Addai67 wrote...
I have a question on how we see things developing in season 2 versus A Clash of Kings. Mainly I'm wondering how they are going to account for there being no Meera and Jojen Reed (*pause to mourn their absence*). Osha is being set up as the one who knows about Bran's green dreams. So are they going to have Rickon and Bran together with Osha and Hodor going north??

I have no idea. But this really bothers me.. 

It's implied at the end of ADWD that something important is going to happen with Jojen Reed. I'm thinking that if he isn't going to be on the show then GRRM might just kill him off or something stupid. 

There are a lot of things that need to be fixed in the last two books but I think it's a bit early to be scrapping important characters. 

Also, didn't the "green dreams" introduction not happen until a later book? I don't recall anything about it being in A Clash of Kings. It seems like it is happening too soon. But I haven't read the book in a long time. 

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 02 avril 2012 - 08:57 .

[Addai]

Jojen starts talking to Bran about his dreams in Winterfell, early in A Clash of Kings.

I wonder if they're just not worried about it because they assume they'll figure out what to do about ADWD if they ever get there.

edit- I'm going to be optimistic here and guess that they are going to have Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor all heading to the marshlands first, and in season 3 they will introduce the Reeds and have Rickon and Bran split up at that point.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 avril 2012 - 09:24 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...

Ok let's use this thread for discussion of the TV series that would be spoilerific for those who are just watching the TV show.

THIS IS A SPOILER WARNING FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T FINISHED THE BOOKS.


I have a question on how we see things developing in season 2 versus A Clash of Kings. Mainly I'm wondering how they are going to account for there being no Meera and Jojen Reed (*pause to mourn their absence*). Osha is being set up as the one who knows about Bran's green dreams. So are they going to have Rickon and Bran together with Osha and Hodor going north??

Thats a good question. I guess a lot comes down to how they end this season- do they end it with Winterfell being burned or do they hold off until next season for that? Some of the interviews with David and Dan give the impression they might be holding off introducing some characters like that until next year.

I guess you could have Osha, Bran, Rickon and Hodor leave and start south or north for one reason or another, and along the way run into Meera and Jojen as they're late to Winterfell? I can't see just Bran and Hodor going up to the Wall alone...that wouldn't make for terribly compelling TV:

Bran: So whats up Hodor?
Hodor: Hodor? Hodor hodor!
Bran: Oh, yes, I've been warging more often now
Hodor Hodor Hodor Hodor

And then if they ever get to A Dance with Dragons, Rickon and Osha need to be off on Skagos, so they have split up eventually.

I think it comes down to how far ahead they're thinking and thats the tricky thing with the show- you can cut people out in the short term in some of these instances, but you're probably going to need to introduce them sooner or later or else the story will become very different from the books.

Another reason I'm wondering how much we'll get of Winterfell is the fact that I don't think they casted Ramsay or Reek, have they?

[Addai]

Well I'm assuming Reek will be Alfie Allen in makeup. He tweeted that people had told him he gets a bigger role in future books... OMG, he has no clue. lololol

I do not recall a Ramsay casting, no. They might show Roose orchestrating the besiegers' betrayal?

Via Twitter, people who've been to press screenings are confirming that Stannis is said to be childless in the TV series.  So no Shireen and no Patchface. 

Modifié par Addai67, 02 avril 2012 - 10:11 .

[sheppard7]

Addai67 wrote...

Well I'm assuming Reek will be Alfie Allen in makeup. He tweeted that people had told him he gets a bigger role in future books... OMG, he has no clue. lololol

I do not recall a Ramsay casting, no. They might show Roose orchestrating the besiegers' betrayal?

Via Twitter, people who've been to press screenings are confirming that Stannis is said to be childless in the TV series.  So no Shireen and no Patchface. 

Maybe the person told Alfie "book" and he thought the person said it plural. lol

Edit: But if the show was 100% to the books, then Richard Madden wouldn't be seen much in Season 2 since Robb was basically unseen for most of the book.

Modifié par sheppard7, 02 avril 2012 - 11:55 .

[TJPags]

Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Ok let's use this thread for discussion of the TV series that would be spoilerific for those who are just watching the TV show.

THIS IS A SPOILER WARNING FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T FINISHED THE BOOKS.


I have a question on how we see things developing in season 2 versus A Clash of Kings. Mainly I'm wondering how they are going to account for there being no Meera and Jojen Reed (*pause to mourn their absence*). Osha is being set up as the one who knows about Bran's green dreams. So are they going to have Rickon and Bran together with Osha and Hodor going north??

Thats a good question. I guess a lot comes down to how they end this season- do they end it with Winterfell being burned or do they hold off until next season for that? Some of the interviews with David and Dan give the impression they might be holding off introducing some characters like that until next year.

I guess you could have Osha, Bran, Rickon and Hodor leave and start south or north for one reason or another, and along the way run into Meera and Jojen as they're late to Winterfell? I can't see just Bran and Hodor going up to the Wall alone...that wouldn't make for terribly compelling TV:

Bran: So whats up Hodor?
Hodor: Hodor? Hodor hodor!
Bran: Oh, yes, I've been warging more often now
Hodor Hodor Hodor Hodor

And then if they ever get to A Dance with Dragons, Rickon and Osha need to be off on Skagos, so they have split up eventually.

I think it comes down to how far ahead they're thinking and thats the tricky thing with the show- you can cut people out in the short term in some of these instances, but you're probably going to need to introduce them sooner or later or else the story will become very different from the books.

Another reason I'm wondering how much we'll get of Winterfell is the fact that I don't think they casted Ramsay or Reek, have they?

Good question, and interesting answer.  It does cause problems.

Jojen and Meera (I didn't realize they hadn't been cast at all - such a shame) play a role in Bran's story - a big role (Jojen more than Meera).  Doing it with Osha - not sure it's going to work.  We're going from "I know about these things, I have such dreams myself" to "yes, I've heard about this".  Not as powerful, IMO.  Also, of course, the practical - do Rikkon and Bran not split?  Do they introduce someone else, or let a minor character who dies survive to go with Rikkon while Osha goes with Bran?  And why would the Children accept Osha?

Plus, there are other mysteries involving the Reeds - they provide info regarding Jon's parentage, and may know the truth (whatever that is ).  Where do we get this from in the show?

I know they also cast a few of the Northern Lords, such as Ramsay, but the late intro of them . . . will that take away from the entire northern storyline?  Will the Karstarks play as large a role in later events, will Manderley?

I know shows must be different from books - internal thoughts from books don't work on film - but too many changes concern me.  Greatly.

[TJPags]

BTW, did anyone catch the identity of the first lord that was talking to Bran? I want to say it was supposed to be Rickard Karstark, but didn't catch a name, just a reference to Torren's Tower?

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...

BTW, did anyone catch the identity of the
first lord that was talking to Bran? I want to say it was supposed to
be Rickard Karstark, but didn't catch a name, just a reference to
Torren's Tower?

I didn't catch it either, but was Karstark campaigning with Robb at the point?

Addai67 wrote...
Via Twitter, people who've been to press screenings are confirming that Stannis is said to be childless in the TV series.  So no Shireen and no Patchface. 

*****SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 2****








SO DON'T LOOK IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS








LIKE REALLY, DON'T LOOK



Yup, having just watched episode 2, Mel tells Stannis that his wife is sickly and hasn't given him any sons, just stillborns and death. So seemingly no Shireen.I don't know why they couldn't have just mentioned a sickly daughter. They just seem like they're potentially burning bridges this way, unless they know from GRRM that Shireen isn't important in the last 2 books. I don't know how that really will work out though since in ADwD it seemed like she had some role to play what with the grayscale and all that. As I remember, was it Mel that had some prophecy or vision of some "pale rider" or something, that kind of foreshadowed plague? Maybe I'm just imagining that.

Then you have other stuff thats different from the books, like them basically confirming that Joffrey ordered the bastards killed, the whole Asha reveal kind of going a bit too far (and not as awesome as the book), Bronn taking over for Janos Slynt as commander of the gold cloaks, Craster catching Jon spying the Others taking away a baby, Rakharo's head getting chopped off, Stannis and Mel doing it on the Painted table, no Vaes Tolorro...

They're more or less hitting the main plot points, but there really is no subtlety or buildup in some of these scenes. And I think its hurting their characterizations, even just on their own and not comparing them to the book. I really think they botched the Asha (or "Yara") reveal as an example of this. Theon gets off the boat, next thing you know Asha walks up to him and they're off on the horse to Pyke with Theon going all in and Asha not even objecting like she did in the books. Meh... I'm not sold on her actor at all (especially visually) and thats kind of a major bummer considering Asha is one of my favorites from the books<_<

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 avril 2012 - 09:15 .

[Seagloom]

Excuse me. I need to step away a minute and scream.

...
...
...

Okay, I got it out of my system. Seriously, that is bullcrap. Stannis and Melisandre sleeping together is a harsh blow to his characterization. This is a man who epitomizes rigidity and adherence to duty. He would *not* cheat on his wife no more than he could accept Renly as king. Total and utter bullcrap.

The other stuff is just annoying. I like Rakharo on the show. I even thought to myself during the premiere how he may be the only Dothraki I like. And they kill him. -.-

The Joffrey thing makes no sense. I can only see that as extension of his spat with Cersei in the previous episode. They are going out of their way to humanize Cersei despite all the crap she is responsible for. It makes me wonder if we will ever get the conversation between her and Tyrion when she confesses to her role in Robert's demise.

Bronn replacing Slynt instead of Ironhand... meh. I don't think it makes sense considering why Tyrion promoted Ironhand to the post, but it doesn't bother me much.

The Craster and Jon thing is lame. I guess they wanted to give my favorite ice zombies more face time, and it was easier to build tension between Craster and Jon that way.

Seriously though, Stannis sexing Melisandre? Grrragh!

[Nameless one7]

Seagloom wrote...

Excuse me. I need to step away a minute and scream.

...
...
...

Okay, I got it out of my system. Seriously, that is bullcrap. Stannis and Melisandre sleeping together is a harsh blow to his characterization. This is a man who epitomizes rigidity and adherence to duty. He would *not* cheat on his wife no more than he could accept Renly as king. Total and utter bullcrap.

The other stuff is just annoying. I like Rakharo on the show. I even thought to myself during the premiere how he may be the only Dothraki I like. And they kill him. -.-

The Joffrey thing makes no sense. I can only see that as extension of his spat with Cersei in the previous episode. They are going out of their way to humanize Cersei despite all the crap she is responsible for. It makes me wonder if we will ever get the conversation between her and Tyrion when she confesses to her role in Robert's demise.

Bronn replacing Slynt instead of Ironhand... meh. I don't think it makes sense considering why Tyrion promoted Ironhand to the post, but it doesn't bother me much.

The Craster and Jon thing is lame. I guess they wanted to give my favorite ice zombies more face time, and it was easier to build tension between Craster and Jon that way.

Seriously though, Stannis sexing Melisandre? Grrragh!

I understand where your coming from.  Sometimes I just don't understand why they make some of those changes from the books.

[Seagloom]

I can live with most of these changes. I don't like them, but I can bear them. The Melisandre and Stannis thing, though? No. Just no. I had a long moment there when I considered saying to hell with the program and forgetting it existed. Even if I could believe Melisandre is capable of doing that to manipulate someone, it just doesn't feel like her style. And then the Stannis perspective...

You know what? I need to stop thinking about this and go play a game.

Modifié par Seagloom, 03 avril 2012 - 09:29 .

[Brockololly]

Seagloom wrote...
Okay, I got it out of my system. Seriously, that is bullcrap. Stannis and Melisandre sleeping together is a harsh blow to his characterization. This is a man who epitomizes rigidity and adherence to duty. He would *not* cheat on his wife no more than he could accept Renly as king. Total and utter bullcrap.

Well, they're not really sleeping together they just go at it right on the Painted table. But wasn't that basically insinuated in the books? Having sex? Its been a while since I read A Clash of Kings, but isn't that how Mel makes the shadowbabies? But not unlike how the books kept Loras and Renly's relationship subtle while the show has them slurping each other, subtlety doesn't exist on the show.

Seagloom wrote...
The Joffrey thing makes no sense. I can only see that as extension of his spat with Cersei in the previous episode. They are going out of their way to humanize Cersei despite all the crap she is responsible for. It makes me wonder if we will ever get the conversation between her and Tyrion when she confesses to her role in Robert's demise.

Tyrion brings it up when talking to Cersei, as he thinks she ordered the killings and her subsequent silence makes him realize Joffrey ordered them.

Seagloom wrote...
The Craster and Jon thing is lame. I guess they wanted to give my favorite ice zombies more face time, and it was easier to build tension between Craster and Jon that way.

Yeah, this scene just feels very "Its the end of the episode and we need a cliffhanger!" With Jon seeing the Other take the baby only to turn around and have Craster knock him out. Eh...again, I get that its TV so they need to show more than tell, but the characterization of some of these characters feels a bit hollow, especially since most of these characters only get about one scene per episode.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 avril 2012 - 09:32 .