1269 réponses à ce sujet

[Seagloom]

It is possible they insinuated it and I was too dense to notice. That they did something together was definitely implied. I took it less as a sex ritual than something involving blood, however. Given that within chapters of Renly's death Varys tells Tyrion the story of how his genitals were severed for a ritual, it felt like an intentional parallel.

Then we have the whole sacrificing Edric Storm thing, and Mirri Maz Duur's "only death may pay for life" words to Dany.

Stannis was haggard the morning after Renly's death. If memory serves, Davos monologues that he looks as if he aged overnight.

I can accept sex was a part of it, if that is truly where GRRM intended it to go. The allusions still point to those rituals needing more than just a roll in the hay, though. Assuming sex was the only catalyst, it still does not justify Stannis sleeping with Melisandre in Dragonstone. She will not be birthing any shadow babies for awhile yet. Stannis would not have sex with her for the fun of it.

Also, I used the term sleeping together to avoid being crass(ter).

Modifié par Seagloom, 03 avril 2012 - 09:57 .

[Addai]

Dammit, I couldn't help but look when I saw you guys chatting over here. lol

I'm gonna pretend I didn't read it all but I will say that I had always assumed Stannis and Mel were having sex. I thought it was fairly plain in ADWD. It's one of the interesting things about Stannis' character. He is such a straight shooter, but Mel turns him into a cultist and fetishist. So I think that's pretty consistent.

Also I agree that they're burning bridges, but GRRM already flagged that fact by saying the guy whose tongue got ripped out by Drogo in season 1 is alive in the books and will have a role in The Winds of Winter. My guess is, he'll be in the khalasar that Dany meets at the end of ADWD. Since a greyscale plague is foreshadowed in ADWD, I had assumed Shireen would come into play there. I also was always worried about her ending up in Mel's fires. :/ Or now, possibly killed by wildlings. Obviously D & D think they probably won't get that far so if they do, they'll cross those bridges when they come to them.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 avril 2012 - 12:30 .

[Seagloom]

Well, since I haven't read ADWD yet, I only have the other books to go by. If I were to further narrow it to ACoK, I totally didn't get that impression reading it.

Modifié par Seagloom, 03 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
Also I agree that they're burning bridges, but GRRM already flagged that fact by saying the guy who's tongue got ripped out by Drogo in season 1 is alive in the books and will have a role in The Winds of Winter. My guess is, he'll be in the khalasar that Dany meets at the end of ADWD. Since a greyscale plague is foreshadowed in ADWD, I had assumed Shireen would come into play there. I also was always worried about her ending up in Mel's fires. :/ Or now, possibly killed by wildlings. Obviously D & D think they probably won't get that far so if they do, they'll cross those bridges when they come to them.

Yeah, I guess thats a reality of TV in that they probably can't keep all of the minor characters around. Thats why Shagga was recast in the first episode. I guess they could have it so Stannis' wife has greyscale? Seeing as Mel says she's "sickly"...probably a stretch. 

And as for the Butterfly Effect taking hold in changing up characters and events from the books, I'm still really thinking that D&D are really only planning on getting through A Storm of Swords and the RW. Thats their big goal and anything after that, they'll take as they go if they get to it.

Seagloom wrote...

Well, since I haven't read ADWD yet, I only have the other books to go by. If I were to further narrow it to
ACoK, I totally didn't get that impression reading it. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

WHAT!? Read it!

But as I recall, there is a point in ADWD where Mel makes mention of her bed being cold since Stannis left.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 avril 2012 - 10:46 .

[addiction21]

I am trying to find but to no luck. It was a interview with Martin between the first and second seasons. He mentions that some plot lines would be moved around to fit in better and some characters will have a lesser role or larger role depending.
It might of been the same one he also mentioned that he provided the producers his overall thoughts on the ending and its arch. "Just incase he is not around to finish the story"

This is going to bother the hell out of me. It was one of those late night roaming the internet things.

I should prolly just shut up. I keep books and their T.V. Movie adaptations seperate in my head anyway.

Modifié par addiction21, 03 avril 2012 - 11:11 .

[TJPags]

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

BTW, did anyone catch the identity of the
first lord that was talking to Bran? I want to say it was supposed to
be Rickard Karstark, but didn't catch a name, just a reference to
Torren's Tower?

I didn't catch it either, but was Karstark campaigning with Robb at the point?

Yes, he was (in the books) . . .but since nobody with Robb has been identified in the show, I was thinking maybe this was their way of introducing Karstark/dealing with the betrayal aspect from Dance.

Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Via Twitter, people who've been to press screenings are confirming that Stannis is said to be childless in the TV series.  So no Shireen and no Patchface. 

*****SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 2****








SO DON'T LOOK IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS








LIKE REALLY, DON'T LOOK



Yup, having just watched episode 2, Mel tells Stannis that his wife is sickly and hasn't given him any sons, just stillborns and death. So seemingly no Shireen.I don't know why they couldn't have just mentioned a sickly daughter. They just seem like they're potentially burning bridges this way, unless they know from GRRM that Shireen isn't important in the last 2 books. I don't know how that really will work out though since in ADwD it seemed like she had some role to play what with the grayscale and all that. As I remember, was it Mel that had some prophecy or vision of some "pale rider" or something, that kind of foreshadowed plague? Maybe I'm just imagining that.

Then you have other stuff thats different from the books, like them basically confirming that Joffrey ordered the bastards killed, the whole Asha reveal kind of going a bit too far (and not as awesome as the book), Bronn taking over for Janos Slynt as commander of the gold cloaks, Craster catching Jon spying the Others taking away a baby, Rakharo's head getting chopped off, Stannis and Mel doing it on the Painted table, no Vaes Tolorro...

They're more or less hitting the main plot points, but there really is no subtlety or buildup in some of these scenes. And I think its hurting their characterizations, even just on their own and not comparing them to the book. I really think they botched the Asha (or "Yara") reveal as an example of this. Theon gets off the boat, next thing you know Asha walks up to him and they're off on the horse to Pyke with Theon going all in and Asha not even objecting like she did in the books. Meh... I'm not sold on her actor at all (especially visually) and thats kind of a major bummer considering Asha is one of my favorites from the books<_<

I just - - I didn't want to read this.  But I did.  I skipped it at first, but was drawn back by the later discussion.

So, Stannis and Mel getting it on . . . Joffrey orders the bastards killed, not sure how they change Asha (well, I can guess, and if so . . . ugh) . . . Bronn takes over the Gold Cloaks?????  Craster catches Jon watching the Others take away a son?????  Rakharo dies????? 

Okay, I am REALLY seriously disappointed.  Some of these are simply blatant statements of what was hinted at but never clear in the books.  But some of this is significantly plot altering, IMO.  Bronn taking over the Gold Cloaks could have a major effect on his relationship with Tyrion - or should.  Craster, Jon and the Others . . .if I recall right, we don't SEE any of the Others post-book one prologue - they remain mysterious.  The whole Craster son thing is implied, but could easily have been interpreted as simply leaving them out to die.  And Rakharo?  Given how Dany feels about anyone dying, or letting ANYONE down . . . .wow, just wow.

I'm not happy here.  I am very not happy.

Modifié par TJPags, 03 avril 2012 - 11:55 .

[AxisEvolve]

Brockololly wrote...  Yup, having just watched episode 2, Mel tells Stannis that his wife is sickly and hasn't given him any sons, just stillborns and death. So seemingly no Shireen.I don't know why they couldn't have just mentioned a sickly daughter.

I thought I saw her on the beach during the first episode? As Stannis walked away after the ceremony he signaled a smallish looking female to come with him. I don't have a picture, but it's there.

I'm doubting that she wouldn't be included in the show. You're right about her part seeming to grow at the end of ADWD. I think Asha was disturbed by her or something? (Someone) acted like she was straight up contagious from what I remember. 

Brockololly wrote...   the whole Asha reveal kind of going a bit too far (and not as awesome as the book)

 
Agreed, in the book it was funny. In that episode it was just weird. I'm hoping the badass side of... Yara? emerges soon. 

Brockololly wrote...  
Craster catching Jon spying the Others taking away a baby 

 
This is what really bothered me. It was just... corny. I can't believe they really went down the cliche "guy secretly following someone and turns around to have the person he is following knock him unconscious" route.. I don't see the point to it, but we'll find out soon I guess. 

[TJPags]

AxisEvolve wrote...

Brockololly wrote...  Yup, having just watched episode 2, Mel tells Stannis that his wife is sickly and hasn't given him any sons, just stillborns and death. So seemingly no Shireen.I don't know why they couldn't have just mentioned a sickly daughter.

I thought I saw her on the beach during the first episode? As Stannis walked away after the ceremony he signaled a smallish looking female to come with him. I don't have a picture, but it's there.

I'm doubting that she wouldn't be included in the show. You're right about her part seeming to grow at the end of ADWD. I think Asha was disturbed by her or something? (Someone) acted like she was straight up contagious from what I remember. 

It was Val, if I remember right.

[Seagloom]

Brockololly wrote...

WHAT!? Read it!

But as I recall, there is a point in ADWD where Mel makes mention of her bed being cold since Stannis left.

I was rereading the other books when school started up again and textbooks occupied that time. At this rate I doubt I will get to it before July. W00t! Anniversary read!  I already spoiled myself rotten on most of it though; so no big.

[Seagloom]

Something just occurred to me. Does Doreah die in the next episode? At least I think that's her name. The handmaid that taught Dany the oh so mysterious secrets of staying on top and maintaining eye contact during sex. She croaks in ACoK during Dany's desert journey.

It wouldn't surprise me if the showrunners' intent is to keep Doreah alive. Maybe they think Rakharo dying makes for better drama.

Modifié par Seagloom, 04 avril 2012 - 12:49 .

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...
Okay, I am REALLY seriously disappointed.  Some of these are simply blatant statements of what was hinted at but never clear in the books.  But some of this is significantly plot altering, IMO.  Bronn taking over the Gold Cloaks could have a major effect on his relationship with Tyrion - or should.  Craster, Jon and the Others . . .if I recall right, we don't SEE any of the Others post-book one prologue - they remain mysterious.  The whole Craster son thing is implied, but could easily have been interpreted as simply leaving them out to die.  And Rakharo?  Given how Dany feels about anyone dying, or letting ANYONE down . . . .wow, just wow.

I'm not happy here.  I am very not happy.

Granted, I still think it was a good episode so long as you can accept the show as the show and the books the books. But yeah...the show seems to be not so much changing major plot points, but sort of the characterization of certain characters and the details surrounding events. I think its just cemented now that anything only hinted at in the show will be shown in black and white on the show.

I just kind of worry that the books are indirectly spoiled since the absence of certain more minor characters maybe means Dave and Dan know how things end up and are cutting based on that knowledge of what GRRM has told them about the big picture.

AxisEvolve wrote...
This is what really bothered me. It was just... corny. I can't believe they really went down the cliche "guy secretly following someone and turns around to have the person he is following knock him unconscious" route.. I don't see the point to it, but we'll find out soon I guess.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure in the books what Craster does with the babies is known but sort of something people just don't talk about to stay in his good graces. But now in the show, Craster clearly knows that Jon knows, so how does that turn out? Cause the Night's Watch still have to come back to Craster's in A Storm of Swords.

Seagloom wrote...

Something just occurred to me. Does  Doreah die in the next episode? At least I think that's her name. The  handmaid that thought Dany the oh so mysterious secrets of staying on  top and maintaining eye contact during sex. She croaks in ACoK during  Dany's desert journey.

It wouldn't surprise me if the  showrunners' intent is to keep Doreah alive and replacing her death with Rakharo's to balance the scales.

I think you're right and that wouldn't surprise me if they kept her alive.

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 avril 2012 - 12:47 .

[AxisEvolve]

Brockololly  wrote...
Yeah, I'm pretty sure in the books what Craster does with the babies is known but sort of something people just don't talk about to stay in his good graces. But now in the show, Craster clearly knows that Jon knows, so how does that turn out? Cause the Night's Watch still have to come back to Craster's in A Storm of Swords.

 
I believe Jon confronts Commander Mormont with the knowledge at least once in the book. I thought the end with Jon was just going to turn out to be a big dream. 

Even with all Craster's daughters, it seems a bit too convenient that one of them just happened to give birth to a boy during the few days the Night's Watch is staying there... Riiight, after the revelation with Gilly and Sam. I don't like using the word "contrived", but it seems like it was. 

Also, I'm not sure why they cut the convo with Craster recognizing him as a Stark. It seems like it would have worked better than "look how pretty he is!".

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 04 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[Addai]

AxisEvolve wrote...

Brockololly wrote...  Yup, having just watched episode 2, Mel tells Stannis that his wife is sickly and hasn't given him any sons, just stillborns and death. So seemingly no Shireen.I don't know why they couldn't have just mentioned a sickly daughter.

I thought I saw her on the beach during the first episode? As Stannis walked away after the ceremony he signaled a smallish looking female to come with him. I don't have a picture, but it's there.

It was an adult woman.   It's this woman standing next to him.  After he does the sword thing, he gestures to her and she follows him.  I'm guessing this is meant to be Selyse.





It was Val, the wildling princess, who was bothered by Shireen in ADWD.  She calls her an "unclean child" and says she should have been killed.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 avril 2012 - 06:43 .

[AxisEvolve]

Ah, I see. That was the scene I was referring to. She is a bit shorter than him. I figured they may have bumped her age up like a lot of the other children.

Val, yep that was it. I kind of wish Jon took Stannis' offer and settled down with her. It's what I would have done. I guess there's still a chance that might happen, assuming Jon isn't....... ya know. 

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 04 avril 2012 - 02:12 .

[Brockololly]

Another thing I noticed...did they get rid of the Greatjon? Or at least the actor that played him from last season? I noticed a guy that sort of resembled him sitting at the table with Robb and Theon and Rodrick when giving the peace terms, but I don't think that was actually him?

I just want to see all of the Northern lords together, seeing as Roose has a role this year.

[AxisEvolve]

 ^ I hope not.




The Iron Islands look quite nice. 

[Addai]

Greatjon is listed in season 2 cast, and I haven't heard anything about him being canned, so he's probably off on errands or something.

[AxisEvolve]

 He better be back ^

Also, Ghost looks incredible this season. Is it strange that a Direwolf is one of my favorite characters?




I don't think ADWD is as bad as people say it is. It has more "side story" chapters than the first three. But I was patient with it because I know it's just a buildup to the last two. The Theon chapters were great. 

I enjoyed every other POV except for Arya's and Bran's. I just think they're a bit too far-fetched. I felt a strong disconnect with them because there was just too much damn magic going on. Hopefully they adjust that on the show (if they ever get to far). 

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 04 avril 2012 - 08:37 .

[Seagloom]

AxisEvolve wrote...

I don't think ADWD is as bad as people say it is. It has more "side story" chapters than the first three. But I was patient with it because I know it's just a buildup to the last two. The Theon chapters were great.

I enjoyed every other POV except for Arya's and Bran's. I just think they're a bit too far-fetched. I felt a strong disconnect with them because there was just too much damn magic going on. Hopefully they adjust that on the show (if they ever get to far).

I love the magic elements, personally. There is a sense of discovery and wonder to them missing from most fantasy stories where magic is exhaustively explained. The idea that this world as we see it actually developed after both a possible magically influenced catastrophe and zombie apocalypse is interesting. While I do not want to see magic front and center in this story, I enjoy that elements of it keep creeping in.

Modifié par Seagloom, 04 avril 2012 - 07:48 .

[AxisEvolve]

See, the fantasy elements have never been a huge selling point for me. My main interest is the characters and their interactions. I don't really have a "Lost" type wonder or the locations or their origins. Maybe I'm supposed to but I don't.

Early on I came to think that (most of) the magic could be explained. When they were talking about the doom of Valyria I automatically assumed that it wasn't "angry gods" but that a large volcano probably just erupted there.

There are magical elements that I have NO idea how they will handle in the show. The Bran GodsWood stuff beyond the wall? Yeah that seems possible. But the giants? Aria face shifting? I don't envy the challenge ahead of them. I'm just of the opinion that these things could have been left out without any negative effect on the story.

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 04 avril 2012 - 08:46 .

[Seagloom]

The face shifting should come up this season with Jaqen H'ghar. The giants should too with Jon's warging. They did take a lighter touch with Bran's dreams in season one, but I get the feeling that had more to do with budget limitations and their episode count.

For me, the fantasy elements are huge. I expect strong character development in any long running story; be it fantasy, science fiction, mystery or horror. What drew me to A Game of Thrones was its trappings. I wanted to read a story with kings and queens, knights, nobles, battles, twists and turns. More so since great fantasy stories are not altogether common.

Modifié par Seagloom, 04 avril 2012 - 09:06 .

[HoonDing]

Somebody remind me - why does Melisandre consider that dull codger Stannis to be the Azhor Azhai (sp?)?

[Addai]

Because he was born on Dragonstone, primarily? I think that's the only reason. Poor Mel, such a smart lady but such a dolt when the answer is staring her in the face. "I ask to see Azor Ahai but I keep seeing you, Jon." HELLO

About the fantasy stuff, I was very leery of it at first, but ADWD brought me around. I loved the stuff with the children of the forest and the weirwoods. A lot is still left to be explained, but I'm okay if GRRM leaves some mystery about certain things. I hope he does.

[twincast]

Addai67 wrote...

Because he was born on Dragonstone, primarily? I think that's the only reason. Poor Mel, such a smart lady but such a dolt when the answer is staring her in the face. "I ask to see Azor Ahai but I keep seeing you, Jon." HELLO

Erm, he wasn't, actually. I think her reasoning goes something like: The prophecy must mean the stone dragons of Dragonstone. -> Stannis is lord of Dragonstone when she arrives/has visions that tell her to look for Azor Ahai reborn, so he has to be the real deal. It's really incredibly weak, but that's what delusion does to people. And with her having convinced herself that she (incredibly easily) managed to recreate Lightbringer she's so deep in her fantasy that she ignores early evidence for Dany and recent evidence for Jon entirely without even noticing she does so.

[AxisEvolve]

Seagloom wrote...
The face shifting should come up this season with Jaqen H'ghar. The giants should too with Jon's warging. They did take a lighter touch with Bran's dreams in season one, but I get the feeling that had more to do with budget limitations and their episode count.

Yeah, you're right. But the Arya thing is a bit different. I thought the explanation on how face-swapping works was kinda eh.... basically Texas Chainsaw style. I still don't really get how that works, but I'm ok with that. 

Addai67 wrote...
About the fantasy stuff, I was very leery of it at first, but ADWD brought me around. I loved the stuff with the children of the forest and the weirwoods. A lot is still left to be explained, but I'm okay if GRRM leaves some mystery about certain things. I hope he does.

 
Trying to explain all of the mysteries is the worst thing a story can do, in my opinion. Nothing is better than what the individual's mind comes up with. When shows go off trying to answer things that really should never be answered in the first place, it ends up really killing the imagination. Obviously, some things need to be explained. But I believe there should be some questions left unanswered. 


EDIT: I just realized that a lot of my posts in here are complaining. I should point out that I do love the books. Apart from my minor criticisms, I'm a huge fan of everything else. 

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 04 avril 2012 - 10:50 .