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[Mercannis]

LPPrince wrote...

Tyrion's the good bad guy. Or the bad good guy. Your choice.

Definite boss.

I just started reading book II :  A Clash of Kings and i have to say that the dialogue between Cersei and Tyrion is some of the best ive read in years. Made me laugh numerous times, really glad the wife picked the box set up for me now.

[LPPrince]

Mercannis wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Tyrion's the good bad guy. Or the bad good guy. Your choice.

Definite boss.

I just started reading book II :  A Clash of Kings and i have to say that the dialogue between Cersei and Tyrion is some of the best ive read in years. Made me laugh numerous times, really glad the wife picked the box set up for me now.

It gets better.

[Volus Warlord]

LPPrince wrote...

Mercannis wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Tyrion's the good bad guy. Or the bad good guy. Your choice.

Definite boss.

I just started reading book II :  A Clash of Kings and i have to say that the dialogue between Cersei and Tyrion is some of the best ive read in years. Made me laugh numerous times, really glad the wife picked the box set up for me now.

It gets better.

Yes it does. The rivalries in that family are ridiculous. 

[LPPrince]

Tyrion would be my bro for life, I'm tellin you.

[Volus Warlord]

LPPrince wrote...

Tyrion would be my bro for life, I'm tellin you.

Why's that? He's a capable, but I'd never dare trust him.

[LPPrince]

You can trust the untrustworthy to be untrustworthy.

Plus, Tyrion actually DOES have honor. A sense of it, at least.

[Volus Warlord]

LPPrince wrote...

You can trust the untrustworthy to be untrustworthy.

Plus, Tyrion actually DOES have honor. A sense of it, at least.

How much is his sense of honor worth if it is dedicated to Shae and her like?

[LPPrince]

He dun goofed.

[Volus Warlord]

LPPrince wrote...

He dun goofed.

Lol indeed. He's smart, he's cunning, he's manipulative, but he has his area of weakness: HOOKERS! Lol. Tragic flaw?

[LPPrince]

Every man thinks with his penor at least once.

[Volus Warlord]

LPPrince wrote...

Every man thinks with his penor at least once.

Lol true. Very true. But it bites him so hard.

Cersei tries to use them as leverage to control Tyrion.

I couldn't get over what Shae said during his trial. 

And Tywin hates him for it. Well, among other things.

[LPPrince]

Like Tywin and Shae matter anymore.

[Volus Warlord]

LPPrince wrote...

Like Tywin and Shae matter anymore.

True.. but vices rarely cease to be destructive, even if the old damage seems null.

But, Tyrion is one of my more favored characters. 

[LPPrince]

Tyrion is one of everyone's favorite characters.

If not, you're reading the books wrong. Likely upside down.

[Megaton_Hope]

Volus Warlord wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

You can trust the untrustworthy to be untrustworthy.

Plus, Tyrion actually DOES have honor. A sense of it, at least.

How much is his sense of honor worth if it is dedicated to Shae and her like?

You mean, prostitutes? I don't really see the argument. He hasn't treated any prostitutes dishonorably that I've seen. I mean, yes, he does look in some odd places for affection, but with his family (and his looks, which are described unfavorably), that's not surprising.

[GodWood]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
You mean, prostitutes? I don't really see the argument. He hasn't treated any prostitutes dishonorably that I've seen.

Read ADWD.

[Addai]

I'm scratching my head- what does he do to prostitutes in ADWD that's dishonorable? I think Tyrion is about the most genuinely good guy in the ASoIaF universe.

[GodWood]

Addai67 wrote...
I'm scratching my head- what does he do to prostitutes in ADWD that's dishonorable?

Early on in the book when he's raging about Cersei and Shae and takes it out on a prostitute.

My memory is fuzzy but I think he only verbally abused her/threatened her.
 

I think Tyrion is about the most genuinely good guy in the ASoIaF universe.

The guy who participated in the pack rape of his first wife?

Trust me, I think he's a fun character but he's hardly the saint so many people like to paint him as.

[Seagloom]

I never saw Tyrion as a good guy. He just seems better compared to darker characters. He was perfectly willing to protect a king as cruel as Joffrey out of kinship. He tried assassination and trickery to break Jaime out of imprisonment. He killed his father purely out of rage. I can forgive Tyrion strangling Shae since she screwed him over spectacularly. (Unintentional double entendre! Five points! ) The most Tywin was guilty of in their relationship was impressively bad parenting. It's not like Tyrion cared deeply about his father employing monsters such as Gregor Clegane, or his army raping and pillaging the countryside to fuel the war effort against House Stark.

I think Tyrion gets a pass because he is snarky, cunning, and has done just enough nice things for some characters while opposing others that are hated such as Cersei. While Tyrion may avoid being a complete monster, he is only slightly less grey than Jaime by estimation.

Modifié par Seagloom, 03 juin 2012 - 09:08 .

[Addai]

I never said he was a saint- those don't exist in ASoIaF, and neither do perfect situations such as that with Joffrey. Like all the characters he has his demons. But he's as close to a good guy as it comes in the series, along with Jon.

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

Tyrion would be my bro for life, I'm tellin you.

Though he might backstab you.

That's the trouble with the lawless neutral type....

[Tirigon]

Seagloom wrote...

While Tyrion may avoid being a complete monster, he is only slightly less grey than Jaime by estimation.

I wouldnt call that a problem, seeing how Jaime is one of the good (or at least better) guys himself.


I just loved Jaime's character development. In "A Game of Thrones" he seems to be a monster comparable to the likes of Clegane, but during his captivity with Brienne he proved to be one of the few honorable, true knights.

[Megaton_Hope]

Seagloom wrote...
I think Tyrion gets a pass because he is snarky, cunning, and has done just enough nice things for some characters while opposing others that are hated such as Cersei. While Tyrion may avoid being a complete monster, he is only slightly less grey than Jaime by estimation.

Maybe I haven't read far enough to know his redeeming qualities (since I'm only on the beginning of the second book at the moment), but I'd call Tyrion the grey one, while Jaime's more an outright villain.

I mean, Jaime pushes a child out of a tower. Not to mention he killed the old king seemingly just to avoid having to execute his father. Heroic Jaime would have acted to protect the good people of King's Landing, but Tywin's men were massacring them at the time after entering the city by treachery.

Nothin' Tyrion actually does in Book 1 seems particularly villainous to me. Littlefinger makes an accusation to Catelyn that is apparently untrue. (All signs presently point to Joffrey.) Tyrion winds up making common cause with some shady characters, but he's always backed up against a wall at the time. There IS that fixation on "ladies of the evening," but even that seems basically benign. Certainly he was genuinely fond of Shae until, spoilers tell me, she had him thrown into a dungeon to rot for a murder he didn't commit.

Other than that, all he's really guilty of is loyalty to his horrible, horrible family.

[Seagloom]

@Addai

Jon lost a lot of my respect when he exchanged one baby for another to give to Melisandre instead of denying her that outright. In all honesty, I think Dany tops them both by a fair margin. At least to the point I've read. I still haven't started ADwD, and only picked up some spoilers there. That said, I wasn't rebutting your earlier post before so much as speaking to the room. I got from your first post that you consider Tyrion good in ASoIaF terms. However, there are a lot of people that seem to think Tyrion is heroic--period.

@Tirigon - Jaime pushed a child out a window with the intention of killing him. I'm sorry, but nothing he's done since erases that. His decisions are nearly always selfishly motivated. He is virtually devoid of empathy for almost everyone outside his immediate family as well. The only thing that keeps Jaime from being a complete villain is he doesn't make others suffer for kicks the way Joffrey did.

When I compare Tyrion to Jaime, it is nowhere near a compliment. Although Tyrion is easily the better person.

@Megaton_Hope

Note that everything I brought up about Tyrion took place in ACoK and ASoS. In AGoT he was largely a victim of others' plots as you stated. Although he did desire to take vengeance on House Arryn after his imprisonment there. For someone that earlier used the King's justice to shield himself, he was more than willing to ignore it himself if it meant they would suffer. The only reason it never went anywhere was because Robb's army marched and he was sent off to King's Landing.

I'm sorry but the loyalty to his family thing is a biggie for me. Knowing Joffrey's character and being aware of how Robert died and just shrugging his shoulders at it? That's pretty unsympathetic to me. I'm not saying Tyrion is on Jaime's level, but I find it very hard to see him as "good". Ned Stark he isn't.

Modifié par Seagloom, 03 juin 2012 - 12:52 .

[RedArmyShogun]

I'ld say he's more like a Good Chaotic really.

Spoilers




He provides men to the Nights Watch, He while attempting to teach Joff sees when that doesn't work, poisons him. Attempts a number of times to get Sansa away from his folks, it was his suggestion to send Ned's remains back home. Purges the City Watch of corruption at the top at least. Convinced Aegon he doesn't need to beg his sister for help, Seeks her out to attempt to advisor her to most likely help her Cousin out.

He's like Varys, he has the "greater good" in mind. But he's by no means lawful, and his Father while a black mark, the man did lots of evil, treated his kids poorly for the most part, had a bit of a love hate thing going on with Tyrion, Even in his thoughts at least Tyrion often rebeled at his fathers ideas and actions.

Then just when his fatherr starts to respect him, after he saves the city, proves an able adminstrator, his father goes "good job now bugger off Imp" Then when Jaime gets free even in his apathy, the father makes it worse and out right tells Tyrion, all he did will never matter, doesn't matter, he'll never hold Casterly Rock, or anything of importants. After doing what numerous Generals have failed, and two hands died attempting.

And to top it off his dear ole brother goes "Oh yeah Your Wife we all took turns raping, she wasn't a **** at all, Dad just didn't like her because she was a peasant." After havign that thrown in his face for years, effecting his manner of living, and breaking his first and likely only true source of love (till Dances of Dragons at least) to have it found out "lol We Troll'n You hate'n."

How could you not want to put a bolt into your father? He doesn't love you, doesn't respect you, will leave you nothing, strips you of your allies and friends, and oh yes didn't like your wife so made a huge fake story about her, and had alot of men take turns raping her. Only an Evil man would have shrugged and not put a bolt into him.

Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 03 juin 2012 - 12:52 .