1269 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

I'm working my way through A Feast for Crows right now for the first time. I know its considered the weakest entry by many but (I'm only about 300 pages in) it is nice how you get some new perspectives on other areas of Westeros like Dorne. That said, since its basically half of a book it suffers from lacking the other main character POV's like Dany, Jon and Tyrion. 

AFFC is basically hit or miss depending on whether you care about a commoner's perspective (and so Brienne becomes interesting) and how much just expanding the lore is your cup of tea. IMO.

The big thig is that AFFC essentially has very few 'old' POVs, and characters like Jaime and Sam are not neccesarily fan favourites.

And don't get me started on the terrible character derailment of Cersei.

Theory Spoilers:

Catspaw wrote...
So far, I've read Arya, Nedd, and am halfway
through Bran. The Tower of Joy makes so much more sense this way. I've
finally jumped on the bandwagon of R+L=J

Ned danced around Jon so much and the wording was so careful I think R+L = J has to be it. He thought about his children.... and only listed Arya, Robb, Sansa and Bran? Eddard Stark wouldn't think of Jon as any less his son, unless...

I don't think Jon gets a happy ending - I just think he's the cog that turns the wheels moreso than Daenerys.

Still, GRRM sort of makes it up as he goes, so who knows?

Modifié par In Exile, 01 juillet 2011 - 06:13 .

[wizardryforever]

Yeah, I found A Feast for Crows to be rather tedious at times.  Brienne's storyline was very hit and miss, alternating between interesting and very boring.  Not too fond of Jaime as a POV character, though he is vaguely interesting on the whole, and he certainly has changed since his first appearance throwing Bran out the window.  I did find Samwell's chapters and Sansa/Alayne's chapters to be quite interesting however, since they seemed to indicate large events on the horizon.

But the biggest thing was the lack of Jon, Tyrion, and Daenerys.  When I first read it I was pissed.  At least GRRM had the decency to put a disclaimer in the back of the book explaining himself.

[HoonDing]

In Exile wrote...

Still, GRRM sort of makes it up as he goes, so who knows?

It's equally plausible, perhaps even more so, for Jon to be the son of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne.

[KenKenpachi]

wizardryforever wrote...

Yeah, I found A Feast for Crows to be rather tedious at times.  Brienne's storyline was very hit and miss, alternating between interesting and very boring.  Not too fond of Jaime as a POV character, though he is vaguely interesting on the whole, and he certainly has changed since his first appearance throwing Bran out the window.  I did find Samwell's chapters and Sansa/Alayne's chapters to be quite interesting however, since they seemed to indicate large events on the horizon.

But the biggest thing was the lack of Jon, Tyrion, and Daenerys.  When I first read it I was pissed.  At least GRRM had the decency to put a disclaimer in the back of the book explaining himself.

Pretty much this. I have to say overall I didn't like A Feast for Crows, very much. A great many of the new people in it just "blah" to me, I don't care, though, was nice seeing the queen **** getting what she has coming. All the others (books) I have and I'm pre-ordering the next book today, wonder when the last two will come out.

[sympathy4saren]

I never heard of this before, or of George R. R. Martin. I'm not a big reader, although I've read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings four times and several other novels.

I'm going to check this out. I already looked into it and its extremely compelling. I'm a stickler for good writing in novels, and Martin looks like he's able to give great characterization.

I'm also attracted to the mature themes and atmosphere apparently present.

What book should I start with?

[Addai]

sympathy4saren wrote...
What book should I start with?

A Game of Thrones is the first book in the series.  They build on one another, so you should start with that one.

[Addai]

virumor wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Still, GRRM sort of makes it up as he goes, so who knows?

It's equally plausible, perhaps even more so, for Jon to be the son of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne.

It's possible, but it's not nearly as beautiful and heartbreaking- it's not as good a story.  So I think Ashara Dayne is a foil for R+L=J.  Ashara adds pathos if you consider the possibility that she killed herself due to Ned's deception about where the baby really came from.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 juillet 2011 - 04:16 .

[LTD]

I've been listening through all four SoIaF audio books while at work over last 2 months or so. It isn't possible to praise the reader of first three, Roy Dotrice, enough.  I haven't listened that many audiobooks and thusly the sheer volume of uhmerhm, ivolvement he pours in each of the major characters is something I have never heard in audio books before. He certainly isn't shy to act the feck out of each and every major part. Feast for crows is read by someone who is far more..conservative and subtle, bores the hell out of me the lad does:l

Has GRRM ever spoken fondly of H.P Lovecraft? Surely the whole  Drowned God-biz has a Cthulhu mythos tribute of sorts wrapped within?

Modifié par LTD, 01 juillet 2011 - 04:29 .

[Seagloom]

Addai67 wrote...

It's possible, but it's not nearly as beautiful and heartbreaking- it's not as good a story.

That's totally subjective, though. Maybe that possibility makes for a more seamlessly flowing story by certain readers' measures, but not all of us. The way I see it, it would make for an overall weaker tale with a tighter, but less compelling subplot. It feels way too high fantasy meets harlequin romance for my tastes.

Modifié par Seagloom, 01 juillet 2011 - 04:29 .

[Addai]

Seagloom wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It's possible, but it's not nearly as beautiful and heartbreaking- it's not as good a story.

That's totally subjective, though. Maybe that possibility makes for a more seamlessly flowing story by certain readers' measures, but not all of us. The way I see it, it would make for an overall weaker tale with a tighter, but less compelling subplot. It feels way too high fantasy meets harlequin romance for my tastes.

It's subjective, of course.  It is not Harlequin romance, however.  Medieval courtly, yes, but ASoIaF is so bleak and gloomy, I particularly love those aspects of romantic myth that he's allowed in.  If the dark forces get to have blood magic interfering with events, there ought to be room for a little breath of Greek/ medieval tragedy here or there, and the high fantasy typos that Valyria represents.

The story we're talking about is so terribly f'ed up.  Rhaegar is married, his wife is home getting raped and killed and watching their children be killed, in part because of what he did.  The consequences for Lyanna, Ned and Ned's family are so dark.  You can't call that Harlequin at all, nor Tolkien.  It does echo medieval romances, where lovers start and end doomed.

[Wereparrot]

I recently finished A Game of Thrones, having previously dived headlong into A Clash of Kings and getting so confused that I gave up less than 200 pages in. I'm glad I read Thrones, and will go back to Kings and then through the series, although I'm not rushing because A Dance With Dragons won't come out in paperback for a good six months to a year. I'm thinking that maybe the Dragon Age devs got the idea for blood magic from this book?

People have described it as 'dark' fantasy but I'm finding it hard to work out why. I suppose it will get 'darker' as the series goes on, but as of my current progress through the series it doesn't seem very dark; the Others only seem as dark as the nature of the orcs or the Nazgul: that is, corrupted beings whose corrupter is a greater evil. I dunno, maybe the term 'dark' fantasy is over-used.

[Addai]

I've most often heard to the series referred to as low fantasy, i.e. magic and the supernatural are not foremost and not a part of most people's everyday experience in the world. I would certainly call them dark in the sense that tragedy is around every corner and there are no white hats.

[Seagloom]

@Addai67 - I am specifically referring to the speculation that Lyanna fled with Rhaegar voluntarily and had a tryst that eventually led to Jon's birth. I simply find the idea Lyanna was swept away by Rhaegar's gestures and joined him in a whirlwind romance exceedingly cliché. The bleakness you mentioned following those events highlights just how displaced the idea feels.

I cannot help see it as dull, by the numbers writing typical of high fantasy. I threw in the harlequin bit to thumb my nose at the love at first sight aspect.

Modifié par Seagloom, 01 juillet 2011 - 09:53 .

[Seagloom]

Wereparrot wrote...

I recently finished A Game of Thrones, having previously dived headlong into A Clash of Kings and getting so confused that I gave up less than 200 pages in. I'm glad I read Thrones, and will go back to Kings and then through the series, although I'm not rushing because A Dance With Dragons won't come out in paperback for a good six months to a year. I'm thinking that maybe the Dragon Age devs got the idea for blood magic from this book?

People have described it as 'dark' fantasy but I'm finding it hard to work out why. I suppose it will get 'darker' as the series goes on, but as of my current progress through the series it doesn't seem very dark; the Others only seem as dark as the nature of the orcs or the Nazgul: that is, corrupted beings whose corrupter is a greater evil. I dunno, maybe the term 'dark' fantasy is over-used.

Addai covered basic reasons the series is often classified as dark fantasy. There are characters people think are protagonists such as Ned that get killed. Almost everyone suffers deeply, and in some cases, without respite. The worst vagaries of human evil are also frequently put on display. Callous murder, betrayal, social and econimic inequality, racism, slavery, you name it. Westeros is not a nice place to live. Everyone has to grow up fast and stability only endures for as long as a ruler is able to enforce it. The backstory of the Targaryens is a good example of how precarious established order in Westeros can be.

There is also that bit about the story basically taking place in a post apocalyptic world. Personally, I find the Others creepy as hell. That aversion is primarily based on Old Nan's tale to Bran about how screwed Westeros was during the Long Night ages ago.

I would not claim ASoIaF is the darkest story ever told, though. If you want a more straight up dark fantasy story check out something like "The Black Company".

As for ASoIaF and DAO, I believe it was David Gaider that wrote they were inspired by the series. The first time I played DAO I drew an instant parallel between the Grey Wardens, darkspawn, Alistair, and the Night's Watch, Others, and Jon Snow. A superficial comparison perhaps, but it was hard not to make them at the time.

Modifié par Seagloom, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:09 .

[Addai]

Seagloom wrote...

@Addai67 - I am specifically referring to the speculation that Lyanna fled with Rhaegar voluntarily and had a tryst that eventually led to Jon's birth. I simply find the idea Lyanna was swept away by Rhaegar's gestures and joined him in a whirlwind romance exceedingly cliché. The bleakness you mentioned following those events highlights just how displaced the idea feels.

I cannot help see it as dull, by the numbers writing typical of high fantasy. I threw in the harlequin bit to thumb my nose at the love at first sight aspect.

I don't think Lyanna was just swept off her feet.  She didn't like Robert Baratheon and was about to be forced to marry him.  Who is powerful enough to save her from that situation?  No one, as it turns out, but a Targaryen might get away with it, so a rebellious "wolf blooded" young woman decides to take a chance on being able to make her own choice.  The consequences are terrible, but I still find it beautiful, not only in Rhaegar and Lyanna's brief attempt to find personal happiness but in the love of a brother for a sister that he would sacrifice what he most holds dear- his honor- over and over again for her sake and for the sake of her innocent child.

Ned just having fathered a bastard, and Catelyn being bitter at him for what he actually did, is a much more pedestrian version of events IMO.  If she was bitter at him for what he had to do because of a promise to his sister and to protect the child, lying to his best friend (and more importantly for Ned, his liege lord) and everyone else in the process... that's far more tangled and compelling, to me.

Edit:  I'll admit that I'm not as enamored of Robb's story, even though it's basically the same thing.  It's probably just because I like Rhaegar and Lyanna more than Robb and what's her name. 

Modifié par Addai67, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:47 .

[Maria13]

Seagloom wrote...

@Addai67 - I am specifically referring to the speculation that Lyanna fled with Rhaegar voluntarily and had a tryst that eventually led to Jon's birth. I simply find the idea Lyanna was swept away by Rhaegar's gestures and joined him in a whirlwind romance exceedingly cliché. The bleakness you mentioned following those events highlights just how displaced the idea feels.

I cannot help see it as dull, by the numbers writing typical of high fantasy. I threw in the harlequin bit to thumb my nose at the love at first sight aspect.

Do you believe in love at first sight?
Yeah, I'm certain it happens all the time...
What do you see when you turn of the light?
I dunno but I know it's mine...

Not a Harlequin or Mills and Boon type of person... But love at first sight does happen when the stars are right... Or sumthing...

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think Lyanna was just swept off her feet.  She didn't like Robert Baratheon and was about to be forced to marry him.  Who is powerful enough to save her from that situation?  No one, as it turns out, but a Targaryen might get away with it, so a rebellious "wolf blooded" young woman decides to take a chance on being able to make her own choice.  The consequences are terrible, but I still find it beautiful, not only in Rhaegar and Lyanna's brief attempt to find personal happiness but in the love of a brother for a sister that he would sacrifice what he most holds dear- his honor- over and over again for her sake and for the sake of her innocent child.

Ned just having fathered a bastard, and Catelyn being bitter at him for what he really did, is a much more pedestrian version of events IMO.  If she was bitter at him for what he had to do because of a promise to his sister and to protect the child, lying to his best friend (and more importantly for Ned, his liege lord) and everyone else in the process... that's far more tangled and compelling, to me.

I am with you on this. I also think it foreshadows Ned's self-abasement before his execution. Family and the safety of his loved ones and the vulnerable (think about the stand he makes against killing Dany) comes before honour and as Jon says, "He'll do what is right."

[Seagloom]

@Addai

I might agree if Ned was still alive when that came to light. As it stands, the old Catelyn is gone and Ned is dead. What family Jon was emotionally attached to is out of his reach or dead too. Any chance for this to really pay off is long past.

What bothers me more than the reality of what transpired between Rhaegar and Lyanna is it turns Jon into too much of a special snowflake like Dany. I do not want to see a hackneyed ending to his story; happy or sad. One of the reasons I can still root for Jon is that other than benefiting from being raised in a lord's keep, he is an everyman sort of character. Whatever wisdom and success Jon has earned so far was done the hard way. Granted, he does seem to have some plot armor, but unlike Dany and Tyrion, Jon had nothing particularly special going for him other than sheer determination.

Even if I concede that it makes for a more interesting background, and I can sorta see how it does after reading your post, I really dislike where it might take the only characters it can meaningfully affect. The rest I might come around on. Maybe. XD

[Wereparrot]

Seagloom wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

I recently finished A Game of Thrones, having previously dived headlong into A Clash of Kings and getting so confused that I gave up less than 200 pages in. I'm glad I read Thrones, and will go back to Kings and then through the series, although I'm not rushing because A Dance With Dragons won't come out in paperback for a good six months to a year. I'm thinking that maybe the Dragon Age devs got the idea for blood magic from this book?

People have described it as 'dark' fantasy but I'm finding it hard to work out why. I suppose it will get 'darker' as the series goes on, but as of my current progress through the series it doesn't seem very dark; the Others only seem as dark as the nature of the orcs or the Nazgul: that is, corrupted beings whose corrupter is a greater evil. I dunno, maybe the term 'dark' fantasy is over-used.

Addai covered basic reasons the series is often classified as dark fantasy. There are characters people think are protagonists such as Ned that get killed. Almost everyone suffers deeply, and in some cases, without respite. The worst vagaries of human evil are also frequently put on display. Callous murder, betrayal, social and econimic inequality, racism, slavery, you name it. Westeros is not a nice place to live. Everyone has to grow up fast and stability only endures for as long as a ruler is able to enforce it. The backstory of the Targaryens is a good example of how precarious established order in Westeros can be.

I guess it's just that I wouldn't describe such thinks as dark. Gritty, yes, but my understanding of 'dark' has a lot more to do with horror elements than human corruption. 

As for ASoIaF and DAO, I believe it was David Gaider that wrote they were inspired by the series. The first time I played DAO I drew an instant parallel between the Grey Wardens, darkspawn, Alistair, and the Night's Watch, Others, and Jon Snow. A superficial comparison perhaps, but it was hard not to make them at the time.

I instantly made the parallel between the Grey Wardens and the Night's Watch aswell, who in turn are possibly (I'm guessing) based loosely on the Knights Templar.

[Seagloom]

Maria13 wrote...

[Do you believe in love at first sight?
Yeah, I'm certain it happens all the time...
What do you see when you turn of the light?
I dunno but I know it's mine...

Not a Harlequin or Mills and Boon type of person... But love at first sight does happen when the stars are right... Or sumthing...

No. After having felt true love once... definitely no. I would elaborate on why I think that is, but that story is too personal to gab about on a game forum.

[Wereparrot]

Messed up.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:05 .

[wizardryforever]

Seagloom wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

I recently finished A Game of Thrones, having previously dived headlong into A Clash of Kings and getting so confused that I gave up less than 200 pages in. I'm glad I read Thrones, and will go back to Kings and then through the series, although I'm not rushing because A Dance With Dragons won't come out in paperback for a good six months to a year. I'm thinking that maybe the Dragon Age devs got the idea for blood magic from this book?

People have described it as 'dark' fantasy but I'm finding it hard to work out why. I suppose it will get 'darker' as the series goes on, but as of my current progress through the series it doesn't seem very dark; the Others only seem as dark as the nature of the orcs or the Nazgul: that is, corrupted beings whose corrupter is a greater evil. I dunno, maybe the term 'dark' fantasy is over-used.

Addai covered basic reasons the series is often classified as dark fantasy. There are characters people think are protagonists such as Ned that get killed. Almost everyone suffers deeply, and in some cases, without respite. The worst vagaries of human evil are also frequently put on display. Callous murder, betrayal, social and econimic inequality, racism, slavery, you name it. Westeros is not a nice place to live. Everyone has to grow up fast and stability only endures for as long as a ruler is able to enforce it. The backstory of the Targaryens is a good example of how precarious established order in Westeros can be.

There is also that bit about the story basically taking place in a post apocalyptic world. Personally, I find the Others creepy as hell. That aversion is primarily based on Old Nan's tale to Bran about how screwed Westeros was during the Long Night ages ago.

Don't forget about the Free Cities and the other lands beyond the sea.  Things are definitely not better there, despite the claims to the contrary by those in-universe.  Daenerys' whole storyline, as well as Arya's in AFfC seems to indicate that the "dark" aspects of the story are not unique to Westeros.  Unless you were referring to the world and not the continent.  Does the planet have a different name?

[Addai]

Seagloom wrote...

@Addai

I might agree if Ned was still alive when that came to light. As it stands, the old Catelyn is gone and Ned is dead. What family Jon was emotionally attached to is out of his reach or dead too. Any chance for this to really pay off is long past.

But the themes echo.  One of the things the series does well is to show how one act of mercy or vengeance can have far-reaching ripple effects.  Ned sacrifices his honor in order to protect Jon's life, and because of this, a bit of Valyria is on the Wall just when it's needed.  His commitment to do so is influenced by his revulsion at the Lannisters' killing of Rhaegar's children, which is also what sets Dorne on a path to support a Targaryen return.  Robert Baratheon's decision to kill a pregnant Daenerys is what teaches her that she either has to win or die.  Now we see Jon setting up a rather heartless deception in order to spare the life of Mance Rayder's child, and I wonder what sort of consequences that is going to have?

What bothers me more than the reality of what transpired between Rhaegar and Lyanna is it turns Jon into too much of a special snowflake like Dany. I do not want to see a hackneyed ending to his story; happy or sad. One of the reasons I can still root for Jon is that other than benefiting from being raised in a lord's keep, he is an everyman sort of character. Whatever wisdom and success Jon has earned so far was done the hard way. Granted, he does seem to have some plot armor, but unlike Dany and Tyrion, Jon had nothing particularly special going for him other than sheer determination.

Jon being left alone to fend for himself is one of the things that drives him, though.  It's part of the pathos of the story for me.

I'm actually preparing myself, though, for Jon to die and Mance Rayder to become the POV character at the Wall.  We know that anything can happen and no one's safe.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 juillet 2011 - 12:07 .

[Seagloom]

wizardryforever wrote...

Don't forget about the Free Cities and the other lands beyond the sea.  Things are definitely not better there, despite the claims to the contrary by those in-universe.  Daenerys' whole storyline, as well as Arya's in AFfC seems to indicate that the "dark" aspects of the story are not unique to Westeros.  Unless you were referring to the world and not the continent.  Does the planet have a different name?

Yeah, I was referring to the world. I just got lazy and used Westeros since I have no idea what it's named. I agree, ect ect.

Addai67 wrote...

Now we see Jon setting up a rather heartless deception in order to spare the life of Mance Rayder's child, and I wonder what sort of consequences that is going to have?

I expect it will come back to bite him or Melisandre in the ass. Possibly both. It was sad to see Jon harden his heart by degrees over the course of his stories. And yes, I can see how events have rippling effects. The whole story is built on the consequencs of his peoples' actions. This is just a cause of my being wary because of the direction a particular ripple is emanating. I plan to stick with this series until its end. I just fret over where it might be headed like any invested fan. XD

If GRRM does kill off Jon to replace him with Mance Rayder, that will shock a lot of people. It would be sad, but totally worth it in a sadistic way.

Modifié par Seagloom, 02 juillet 2011 - 12:37 .

[BigEvil]

If GRRM did that I'd be fine with it. Jon's a good character and all, but from the brief appearances of Mance Rayder I find him very interesting. I think he has a kind of puckish quality to him. I'm also hoping to see more from Tormund.