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[Costin_Razvan]

It's called ruthlessness. Cruelty is when you are causing suffering just for the hell of it. I can say Tywin Lannister is ruthless, but he isn't cruel.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 juin 2012 - 01:22 .

[LPPrince]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It's called ruthlessness. Cruelty is when you causing suffering just for the hell of it. I can say Tywin Lannister is ruthless, but he isn't cruel.

This. Cruelty NEVER has to enter the picture.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It's called ruthlessness. Cruelty is when you are causing suffering just for the hell of it. I can say Tywin Lannister is ruthless, but he isn't cruel.

I dont know. The way he treated Tysha when she married Tyrion would fall under cruelty rather than ruthlessness imo, and so does the employing of men like Gregor Clegane or the Brave Companions.

[Costin_Razvan]

Cruelity? Certainly Gregor Clegane is cruel as are the Brave Companions, but Tywin was not someone to enjoy the suffering they brought, it was something he deemed necessary.

As for Tysha. He did not do it to cause suffering to her, nor did he do it just to cause suffering to Tyrion, though it was part of the 'sharp lesson', but to teach him. Tywin could not allow his son to shame his House by marrying a peasant girl!

[Addai]

GodWood wrote...
The quote is merely to show that she's not only just as 'immoral' as Tyrion and Jon, but probably worse then them both. Thought that was pretty obvious.

Considering that I think Jon, Tyrion and Dany are all pretty good people as ASoIaF standards go, your example doesn't prove anything to me.  I don't expect a modern moral mindset of characters in a story like this.  In fact I loathe it when authors impose one.

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai: Regarding the peace the Targaryens provided to the Seven Kingdoms, while I firmly believe a single ruler of Westeros is better then 7 Kingdoms fighting each other one thing is certain: There were bloody wars while the Dragons lives ( The Faith Militant Uprising, The Dance of the Dragons the latter severely weakening them ) and bloody wars once the Dragons died: Dorne and the Blackfyre Rebelions

[Megaton_Hope]

Seems t' me that the IronIslands are particularly poorly equipped to be self-governing.

[Costin_Razvan]

Let's rape, murder and pillage!

[twincast]

So, the second season is over. Blimey.

In the end my problem with the show boils down to me being perfectly capable and reasonable enough to view it as an adaptation of the novels, but unable to divorce myself from the books completely and treat it as mostly okay-ish television on its own terms as I would if I hadn't read the books. In other words, I understand time and budget constraints, but I don't care one iota for them changing and adding stuff for the heck of it because they think they can do better when most of the time they fail spectacularly at it, especially when most of them change characters beyond recognition or at least add up to that. I'm just not looking forward to the episodes anymore. I might be able to forgive more (or rather I would have been less disappointed this season) if D&D's big selling point hadn't been staying faithful to the novels, but as somebody else put it in truth it is no longer based on, but rather merely inspired by ASoIaF by GRRM. The first season had only a few notable changes and almost all of them were reasonable ones, not so with this season.

That "The Night Lands" and especially "The Old Gods and the New" made zero sense as titles for their respective episodes was bad enough, but that ill conceived fixed idea of making this the "season of romance" really hurt the show -- probably most of all, even more than whatever it was they did with/to Qarth/Dany.  Giving Robb a "more interesting" LI ended up eroding the last shreds of respect I had for the character, not to mention that it also factored into the general trend of painting Cat as a ginormous fool. The desire to include early two instances of meaningless sexual teasing robbed viewers of the action and suspense of Jon's journey with Qhorin. Not worth it. What else? A single scene of Renly/Loras (and a botched scene of grieving ), a creepy move on Cat by LF (WTF), a bit of Sam/Gilly that barely counts and a couple of scenes between Tyrion and Shae that mostly fell flat, the latter two being the only ones of all the much touted romance actually in the book. TBH I'm still not sure how they could have arrived at that "season of romance" conclusion to begin with, other than the obvious shallow "This is when our young male leads meet their (first) love interests!", as of all the books ACoK is probably the one with the least of it.

As shocking as the Red Wedding was in the books, I only ever really felt sorry for everyone except Robb. He had it coming, that criminally stupid headdesk-inducing punk. And so I must admit I'm almost gleefully looking forward to show!Robb getting his due after that exceedingly idiotic schmaltzy Trew Wub they had us sit through. But one episode/wedding per season is not worth torturing myself with unsatsifying blandness for ten weeks each the next two years. There's much greatness in ASoS ('though I honestly prefer ACoK, lucky me ), but I simply don't trust the showrunners anymore. <_< And what's with their aversion to any kind of mystery and important history? There's been many a show that showed that there's plenty of people who greedily lap it all up until you jump the shark on it, which given that they don't have to make it up themselves as they go along and/or in a team effort (both of which tend to highten the probability of losing one's way among all the plots and secrets), but have high quality source material by a single writer who's already thought it all through, they'd be nowhere near in risk of.

Whoever the show is made for, it definitely isn't me anymore.

Whoa, the above was meant to be a short post; a mere preamble to the following, really... Anywho, on to the good stuff: The National's take on The Rains of Castamere sounds well enough as a version by tavern patrons or somesuch, but I have yet to find anyone doing a better effort at a proper medieval minstrel take (or any kind of take period, really) on any of the known songs of Westeros than this guy called Ryan Yunck, so I'll pluck him here. Been listening to them several times a day for over a week now.
The Rains of Castamere
The Dornishman's Wife
The Last of the Giants - this one really isn't any bardic, but it's still the best version on YouTube by far.

Edit: Posted here because the renditions of the songs remind me more of the books than the show and because I didn't want to have to dance around the RW.

Modifié par twincast, 06 juin 2012 - 08:39 .

[Nameless one7]

twincast wrote...

The first season had only a few notable changes and almost all of them were reasonable ones, not so with this season.

This is how I feel about Game of Thrones, anyhow I stopped watching it around episode 6 or 7.  I refuse to watch Game of Thrones as it is not nearly as good as the books in my eyes.

[RedArmyShogun]

What Nameless siad.

Speaking of has anyone here, skipped Chapters in the books? Some of the POV's bore me to tears so to speak.

[Nameless one7]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Speaking of has anyone here, skipped Chapters in the books? Some of the POV's bore me to tears so to speak.

Nope, I read them all. Although whenever I hit a new chapter I often find myself either pleased or disappointed when i see who the POV is.

I'm gonna guess dissapointed would be Sansa and Brienne.

[Volus Warlord]

Nameless one7 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Speaking of has anyone here, skipped Chapters in the books? Some of the POV's bore me to tears so to speak.

Nope, I read them all. Although whenever I hit a new chapter I often find myself either pleased or disappointed when i see who the POV is.

I'm gonna guess dissapointed would be Sansa and Brienne.

Lol. Not a bad guess. I don't mind Brienne too much but Sansa is just too helpless to be interesting.

My favorite so far was Davos. I hate Cersei but at least the paranoid egomaniac is interesting. 

[RedArmyShogun]

Yeah I love later on when she flips her ****, and is thrown in church/prison lulz.

[Nameless one7]

Thanks Twincast for that version of Rains of Castamere.

[Nameless one7]

Was anyone here at one point hoping for a Varys or Littlefinger POV Chapter? I really wanted to get into both of their heads.

[Volus Warlord]

Nameless one7 wrote...

Was anyone here at one point hoping for a Varys or Littlefinger POV Chapter? I really wanted to get into both of their heads.

*nods* 
That would be interesting.

I saw they had Melisandre in A Dance of Dragons (which I haven't read yet).. and that would be my other idea. Maybe Edric Storm? Ser Jorah Mormont? 

Hodor for some comic relief?

[Nameless one7]

Volus Warlord wrote...
I saw they had Melisandre in A Dance of Dragons (which I haven't read yet)..

Melisandre's chapter was great.

[GodWood]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
Lol. Not a bad guess. I don't mind Brienne too much but Sansa is just too helpless to be interesting.

Yes indeed. Sansa is exactly who I had in mind.

I don't mind her chapters. Her character is a little dull but in later books she does have lots of interesting things happening around her (Littlefinger)

Nameless one7 wrote...
Was anyone here at one point hoping for a Varys or Littlefinger POV Chapter? I really wanted to get into both of their heads.

LF is one of my top 5 favourite characters but I'd rather he wasn't given a POV chapter.

Keep him an enigma.

[LPPrince]

Hodor POV chapter or whole series is bust.

[GodWood]

Didn't GRRM say he wasn't adding in any new POVs? Or did I imagine that?

[UpDownLeftRight]

[Brockololly]

twincast wrote...
In other words, I understand time and budget constraints, but I don't care one iota for them changing and adding stuff for the heck of it because they think they can do better when most of the time they fail spectacularly at it, especially when most of them change characters beyond recognition or at least add up to that.

Yup, thats basically my issue with the changes made in season 2. Most of the issues I had stemmed from odd alterations to characters/stories like Jon's that weren't more exciting or better than the book, but worse and made for worse TV than what was in the books. And in Jon's case, I don't think it was a matter of budget either.

twincast wrote...
Giving Robb a "more interesting" LI ended up eroding the last shreds of respect I had for the character, not to mention that it also factored into the general trend of painting Cat as a ginormous fool. The desire to include early two instances of meaningless sexual teasing robbed viewers of the action and suspense of Jon's journey with Qhorin. Not worth it. What else? A single scene of Renly/Loras (and a botched scene of grieving ), a creepy move on Cat by LF (WTF), a bit of Sam/Gilly that barely counts and a couple of scenes between Tyrion and Shae that mostly fell flat, the latter two being the only ones of all the much touted romance actually in the book. TBH I'm still not sure how they could have arrived at that "season of romance" conclusion to begin with, other than the obvious shallow "This is when our young male leads meet their (first) love interests!", as of all the books ACoK is probably the one with the least of it.

I think the big problem season 2 had was that it was spread far too thin. They had far too many episodes where it felt like they had some quota to check in on every character even if for one scene and it made the whole thing feel disjointed.

If there is any show HBO and the showrunners should be emulating in terms of creating a complex narrative with tons of characters, its The Wire. Honestly, the Wire is about as close to a giant novel in TV form as you're going to get- it has a massive cast of characters and is demanding of the viewer to keep up. It has characters that come and go for episodes (or even seasons) at a time.

So after seeing how the writers/showrunners tried to add in material or "spice up" material for the likes of Dany or Robb, I'd rather they just stick to the source material. Don't be affraid to have certain characters go absent for a season or a span of episodes if it can mean more focused episodes in the interim.  Sometimes less is more.

Its why I don't care for somebody like Ros. There isn't that much wrong with her in her own right, but just about every scene with her is time that could have been spent maybe having a scene with Arya in Harrenhal or Jon with Qhorin. Instead we get Robb making kissy faces.

I'm slightly hopeful that breaking up ASoS into 2 seasons will help in this regard, but only if they let certain characters drift away (like Osha and Rickon hopefully will) instead of clinging on to everyone, which only makes episodes feel terribly bloated and unfocused. Blackwater was great because it had focus, unlike so many other episodes this season that just cut from one person to another with the feeling that little happened.

twincast wrote...
As shocking as the Red Wedding was in the books, I only ever really felt sorry for everyone except Robb. He had it coming, that criminally stupid headdesk-inducing punk. And so I must admit I'm almost gleefully looking forward to show!Robb getting his due after that exceedingly idiotic schmaltzy Trew Wub they had us sit through. But one episode/wedding per season is not worth torturing myself with unsatsifying blandness for ten weeks each the next two years. There's much greatness in ASoS ('though I honestly prefer ACoK, lucky me ), but I simply don't trust the showrunners anymore.

Yeah, again, as an issue of motivation, TV Robb is a dolt. Book Robb is a love struck kid, who doesn't know any better. He's been wounded in battle, falls for Jeyne after hearing of the news that Bran and Rickon are dead, ends up having sex with her and then out of a sense of honor, marries her. Not smart, but at least understandable. Meanwhile TV Robb marries Talissa....because he is overwhelmed by the power of love? And what makes it worse is you have Cat being forced to play stupid amidst Robb's idiocy. Book Robb gets married while away from Cat, so when he returns, its a done deal and Cat can lecture him all she wants but its done. Meanwhile TV Cat is seemingly made into a dolt by never bringing up the Karstarks going to kill Jaime to throw in Robb's face and allowing Robb to be an oathbreaker to the Freys for some foreign girl? And then the King in the NORTH gets married under the Seven? What?

Ugh...As for the RW, I had been spoiled about it before reading the books, but never knew details beyond who died. So it still came as a tremendous surprise to me, in the actual details of the event and the sheer brutality of it, from Cat's point of view. Robb deserved some comeuppance for effectively spitting in Frey's face, but Cat getting offed the way she did was just cold. And how their bodies were desecrated.... its the brutality of the Red Wedding that makes it so shocking and whether you hate or don't care for Robb, the desecration of their bodies afterwards is the thing that makes it so nasty IMO.

twincast wrote...
And what's with their aversion to any kind of mystery and important history? There's been many a show that showed that there's plenty of people who greedily lap it all up until you jump the shark on it, which given that they don't have to make it up themselves as they go along and/or in a team effort (both of which tend to highten the probability of losing one's way among all the plots and secrets), but have high quality source material by a single writer who's already thought it all through, they'd be nowhere near in risk of.

I wonder if the lack of any backstory is a conscious decision they made. I just wonder what happened to that one scene seen in one of the trailers for season 1, of what looked like Brandon getting murdered with Aerys on the Throne. They clearly had that in at one point and took it out. That seems somewhat detrimental going forward, considering the cool thing with the books is how the narrative unfolding forward is informed by the unveiling of the history in the past.