Seagloom wrote...
Their house will probably fall into decline the way it had before Tywin took charge.
King Tommen will have a glorious reign, ruling alongside Ser Pounce, Boots and Lady Whiskers!
A Song of Ice and Fire book discussion (spoilers)
Débuté par
Addai
, juin 27 2011 05:29
#776
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 02:39
Brockololly
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King Tommen will have a glorious reign, ruling alongside Ser Pounce, Boots and Lady Whiskers!
Retour en haut
#777
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 03:02
Seagloom
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Volus Warlord wrote...
Tyrion could be a capable leader, and Jaime is developing along those lines as well.
"Losing" Tywin and Cersei may set them back some, but they still have capable cards to play.
Jaime isn't leadership material, full stop. The most I can see him accomplishing is preventing a total collapse of house Lannister. And for all Tyrion's intellect and ambition, he will always be a dwarf and will never completely shake the reputation of being a kingslayer and kinslayer. It doesn't matter if Dany takes the Iron Throne and decides to install him as lord of Casterly Rock. People who hate Tyrion for who and what he is will continue to do so. Look at how few acknolwedged his contributions in defending King's Landing before and after Blackwater.
Tommen is probably the best chance House Lannister has; assuming he grows up into an intelligent and respected lord.
Modifié par Seagloom, 10 juin 2012 - 03:06 .
#778
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 03:57
RedArmyShogun
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Who knows maybe the new found Dragon Prince will take him under his wing. On the other hand I'm doubting Dany will sit on the Iron Throne. Far more likely she'll aid her cousin.
#779
Posté 13 juin 2012 - 11:17
Megaton_Hope
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Okay, I'm about halfway through book two. I can see why a person might be less warmly disposed toward Tyrion now. He does have reasons, I suppose, but tightening the screws on King's Landing is, if not villainous, at least not a very nice thing to do. I mean, people are starving, he's highly placed in the hierarchy, and he figures the best way to handle the situation is clamping down on the smallfolk?
Seems to me, he really should have tried persuading Cersei and Joffrey to share some of their largesse, so as to avoid the riots.
Seems to me, he really should have tried persuading Cersei and Joffrey to share some of their largesse, so as to avoid the riots.
#780
Posté 13 juin 2012 - 12:40
RedArmyShogun
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As its said later in the same book If you give the small folk this, soon they will demand that. Appeasement would have worked baddly in such an event, and Good ole Jof wanted to kill hundreds of them, I'm sure he's open to sharing, nevermind Cersei who in later pov's you'll see just what she thinks of those around her.
Plus when an Army is coming down on you, unlike in the movies it actully takes time to close and fortify a city. You have to also remember the city was filled past capacity and the ability to feed its self, who is more important the refugee rable that will turn on you as soon as the walls fall for favor? Or the Garrison?
Shorched Earth was being thrown all around at the time, people fleed to Kings Landing which was reading for a siege. Even IF you could hand out all the food or "share" as you say, what happens when that runs out? Or if Tywin had not been able to come and a 100 day Seige was on hand? Nothing good happens in those, nightmares really.
The only thing the bleeding heart leader would have gotten from the small folk is a bleeding heart pulled from his chest and feasted on by the masses once the acustomed rations ran out. Even in the same and later books, canniblism is hinted at taking place.
Plus when an Army is coming down on you, unlike in the movies it actully takes time to close and fortify a city. You have to also remember the city was filled past capacity and the ability to feed its self, who is more important the refugee rable that will turn on you as soon as the walls fall for favor? Or the Garrison?
Shorched Earth was being thrown all around at the time, people fleed to Kings Landing which was reading for a siege. Even IF you could hand out all the food or "share" as you say, what happens when that runs out? Or if Tywin had not been able to come and a 100 day Seige was on hand? Nothing good happens in those, nightmares really.
The only thing the bleeding heart leader would have gotten from the small folk is a bleeding heart pulled from his chest and feasted on by the masses once the acustomed rations ran out. Even in the same and later books, canniblism is hinted at taking place.
#781
Posté 13 juin 2012 - 03:32
Seagloom
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All that is besides the point. Making tough leadership decisions does not absolve one of their moral failings. Justifiable action may be smarter in the long run, but that does not necessarily make it noble.
#782
Posté 13 juin 2012 - 04:44
Megaton_Hope
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While sharing is obviously not on Joffrey's mind (what with the feasts and processions, there's clearly nothing at all on Joffrey's mind), Cersei could more easily be brought around to a more pragmatic approach, and she's the one in real power. That "rabble" is what will end your siege, if what they get from the king and his council is hunger and rigidly enforced curfews. Wouldn't be too surprised if opening the gates to the Starks came to seem more rewarding than bearing with hardship for good ol' Joffrey's sake.
ALSO. WTF, Stannis. WTF.
ALSO. WTF, Stannis. WTF.
#783
Posté 13 juin 2012 - 10:02
LPPrince
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#784
Posté 13 juin 2012 - 10:14
Nameless one7
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Anyone know who Joffrey is based off of historically?
#785
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 11:34
Megaton_Hope
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I would guess Louis XVI, although that's just because he was incredibly unpopular and incompetent.
#786
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 12:43
RedArmyShogun
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Hmm, don't get me wrong, Joff was a monster, his mother is a deranged paranoid uber feminist (after fathers death) and Tyrion was more concerned with the defense of the city, though he had the good of the people in mind its as he often remarked, he was the only thing standing between them and death and yet every bad thing was his doing.
The small folk were idiots, and just as when Tywin rolled in, they would support whoever was leading reguardless, in fact they did not trust them at all. In fact a consipircy was launched, most of them thanks to "good King Joffery" got killed and antlers nailed to em and thrown over the wall. Any thoughts of rebelion the small folks had would have went away. Or at least been cowed.
Also there were times they DID try and kill them, though in fairness normally from Joffery's stupidity. I can't say I would be jumping to feed those that tried to kill me, or my son. And I think both of you are forgetting a key factor. No Food was being sent to open the gates for. It was the Tyrells who brought in food with them when the siege was lifted. And people have lived under such before. WW2 was the most recent example.
The bulk of the food was given to the Armies, as well frankly Soldiers ARE more important in a war than the welfair of the citizenry. In fact durning that war pretty much every power in it, the civil population lived on bare substence level intakes. Which once more in fairness is more than what the people of Kings Landing got.
But if its a show of character or bad luck I can't say. All I know is thousands more will die from hunger.
On the one hand, everyones Army went around burning everyone elses fields, farms, and farmers, the Crown is broke, five people.. by the end 3 say to be king, soon back up to four if not five, Winter is coming, and the city is filled twice past its capacity, to the point serving on the Wall is a better fate.
Of course imo it did not pardon the wedding feast, or Tyrions endless burning of the fishery districts even after the battle. In place a smaller wedding as suggested by the Imp would have been better. And handing food out ment for the much larger and pointless affair would have gave good will to the commoners, something Joffery and the Queen Mother both lacked, and which in the former no man cared short of a reward for the imps head, and in the later case they want her head.
Mind you I don't approve but in a War situation sacrifices must be made. Something we have collectively today have forgotten as no war has been so bad. But the simple fact of the matter is you can't feed people what you don't have. Which while the crown never lacked I question if it could feed half a million people. Mind you while I would have kept my stocks high, all that wheat that was evidently on hand to make that huge pie and other things for the feast, I would have orderd baked into bread and handed out to the commoners in the name of the King, which I think Tyrion did proposse only to be shot down. Some of the vast horde ment for "royal living" should have been spread around, but not to ever dip into the garrisons stocks.
And While I agree in burning/tearing down the fishery district that first time, I would have made a system of random ink markings on a select number of fishers, and let them out of the walls to bring in food. Anyman that came back without the mark or of a face not known to the guards gets his throat opend right then and there. If the Fishermen are out when the attack happens, thats just too bad.
As to Kings I would Say the last Rominov. Incompetent, unpopular, and prone to use force to any situation, quick to deflate as well when stood up to without an Army at his back.
The small folk were idiots, and just as when Tywin rolled in, they would support whoever was leading reguardless, in fact they did not trust them at all. In fact a consipircy was launched, most of them thanks to "good King Joffery" got killed and antlers nailed to em and thrown over the wall. Any thoughts of rebelion the small folks had would have went away. Or at least been cowed.
Also there were times they DID try and kill them, though in fairness normally from Joffery's stupidity. I can't say I would be jumping to feed those that tried to kill me, or my son. And I think both of you are forgetting a key factor. No Food was being sent to open the gates for. It was the Tyrells who brought in food with them when the siege was lifted. And people have lived under such before. WW2 was the most recent example.
The bulk of the food was given to the Armies, as well frankly Soldiers ARE more important in a war than the welfair of the citizenry. In fact durning that war pretty much every power in it, the civil population lived on bare substence level intakes. Which once more in fairness is more than what the people of Kings Landing got.
But if its a show of character or bad luck I can't say. All I know is thousands more will die from hunger.
On the one hand, everyones Army went around burning everyone elses fields, farms, and farmers, the Crown is broke, five people.. by the end 3 say to be king, soon back up to four if not five, Winter is coming, and the city is filled twice past its capacity, to the point serving on the Wall is a better fate.
Of course imo it did not pardon the wedding feast, or Tyrions endless burning of the fishery districts even after the battle. In place a smaller wedding as suggested by the Imp would have been better. And handing food out ment for the much larger and pointless affair would have gave good will to the commoners, something Joffery and the Queen Mother both lacked, and which in the former no man cared short of a reward for the imps head, and in the later case they want her head.
Mind you I don't approve but in a War situation sacrifices must be made. Something we have collectively today have forgotten as no war has been so bad. But the simple fact of the matter is you can't feed people what you don't have. Which while the crown never lacked I question if it could feed half a million people. Mind you while I would have kept my stocks high, all that wheat that was evidently on hand to make that huge pie and other things for the feast, I would have orderd baked into bread and handed out to the commoners in the name of the King, which I think Tyrion did proposse only to be shot down. Some of the vast horde ment for "royal living" should have been spread around, but not to ever dip into the garrisons stocks.
And While I agree in burning/tearing down the fishery district that first time, I would have made a system of random ink markings on a select number of fishers, and let them out of the walls to bring in food. Anyman that came back without the mark or of a face not known to the guards gets his throat opend right then and there. If the Fishermen are out when the attack happens, thats just too bad.
As to Kings I would Say the last Rominov. Incompetent, unpopular, and prone to use force to any situation, quick to deflate as well when stood up to without an Army at his back.
Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 14 juin 2012 - 12:47 .
#787
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 02:38
Megaton_Hope
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This I don't think is accurate. There is some of this happening, but more from the IronIslands folks (who could care less about the mainland), Stannis (who could care less about traitors) or the Lannisters (who only care about winning). Robb and Renly seem particularly aware that after their victory they might have to rule those same people. We've also seen the preparations made to last the winter from the Stark side; Cersei and Joffrey don't seem aware that this is going to have to happen.Confess-A-Bear wrote...
On the one hand, everyones Army went around burning everyone elses fields, farms, and farmers,
Seems t' me that the optimal approach from King's Landing would be to send ships to trade for supplies, both to feed their hungry and angry population for the present and to prepare for the future. King's Landing is naturally ideally situated on the Blackwater Bay for ship traffic, and there are whole other continents more or less uninvolved in the civil war. The obstacle there is in blockade by Stannis and Salladhor Saan, but blockades can be broken. Your city guard and hired swords being outnumbered a thousand to one by desperate peasants can't without supplies.
#788
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 02:51
RedArmyShogun
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Minus they needed all the ships they had which weren't many for a Navy. And no not all blockades can be broken. Not if you have less ships then the enemy, which they did. And While the Wolf might not have, Renly didn't live long enough, Robs men that didn't bend the knee went on to do such, and the Lannisters, well...yeah.
And you assume the Peasents will actively fight.
In every War ever the bulk of the population might mummble and grumble, or even praise you, but they never do march. Its always one small percent versus another small percent. The Majority try and stay alive. But a mute point as the trade ships arn't there and in the age of sail well short of the cover of darkness and small ships meaning less supplies, you won't make too much of a dent.
On the other hand it may take days or WEEKS to sail that distance. In the end its useless as you don't have to break the blockade once, but twice. And then once more the next day. Its not a wise use of ships, its not enough supplies, its only a feel good measure for people who won't act in your defense anyways reguardless of what you do. The Age of sail made travel problematic plus at that time the seas were getting more stormy, so for every five ships you send out at best two might come back. Sooner or later none.
If you worry on the commoners loyality enough to send the bulk of your fleet out on the CHANCE of getting food, you might as well set the peasent districts like Flea bottom on fire while they are asleep. And then close the gates to anymore.
Not Ethical maybe, but hey, if you want to be a shinning knight thats fine. Makes you a brighter target . The common people never are, never will, and never have been happy or loyal.
They key to war isn't loyalty, love, Ethical rules, or tactics.
Its Logistics. I need X amount of Ships, yet I have y amount of ships. I have too few ships. At the same time My Food Supply is stocked for only X amount, when I have Y. I can spread it out, or I can keep it to plan. The sad fact is those people were walking Dead. They died as soon as they came into the City. I have no hate for them. And if I had enough food I would pass it out in mass. However I Don't. I have to work with what I have. Its like triage, if I have limited medical supplies, the people that are going to die...I can't spare pain killers on them. I want too, but I can't, the best I can give them is a fast death. Its horrible, but if you can't face that music, then be ready to be rememberd as a great man. And to lose.
And you assume the Peasents will actively fight.
In every War ever the bulk of the population might mummble and grumble, or even praise you, but they never do march. Its always one small percent versus another small percent. The Majority try and stay alive. But a mute point as the trade ships arn't there and in the age of sail well short of the cover of darkness and small ships meaning less supplies, you won't make too much of a dent.
On the other hand it may take days or WEEKS to sail that distance. In the end its useless as you don't have to break the blockade once, but twice. And then once more the next day. Its not a wise use of ships, its not enough supplies, its only a feel good measure for people who won't act in your defense anyways reguardless of what you do. The Age of sail made travel problematic plus at that time the seas were getting more stormy, so for every five ships you send out at best two might come back. Sooner or later none.
If you worry on the commoners loyality enough to send the bulk of your fleet out on the CHANCE of getting food, you might as well set the peasent districts like Flea bottom on fire while they are asleep. And then close the gates to anymore.
Not Ethical maybe, but hey, if you want to be a shinning knight thats fine. Makes you a brighter target . The common people never are, never will, and never have been happy or loyal.
They key to war isn't loyalty, love, Ethical rules, or tactics.
Its Logistics. I need X amount of Ships, yet I have y amount of ships. I have too few ships. At the same time My Food Supply is stocked for only X amount, when I have Y. I can spread it out, or I can keep it to plan. The sad fact is those people were walking Dead. They died as soon as they came into the City. I have no hate for them. And if I had enough food I would pass it out in mass. However I Don't. I have to work with what I have. Its like triage, if I have limited medical supplies, the people that are going to die...I can't spare pain killers on them. I want too, but I can't, the best I can give them is a fast death. Its horrible, but if you can't face that music, then be ready to be rememberd as a great man. And to lose.
Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 14 juin 2012 - 02:59 .
#789
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 02:56
Addai
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I would give that to Myrcella, actually.Seagloom wrote...
Tommen is probably the best chance House Lannister has; assuming he grows up into an intelligent and respected lord.
#790
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 03:04
Volus Warlord
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Addai67 wrote...
I would give that to Myrcella, actually.Seagloom wrote...
Tommen is probably the best chance House Lannister has; assuming he grows up into an intelligent and respected lord.
Yeah.. that's a decent point..
Tommen was raised to be Cersei's little yes man for her power trip. Myrcella.. not so much.
Given, Tommen is only eight, so there is a chance to undo the damage done by Cersei's shortsightedness and tunnel vision, but who's gonna be the mentor?
#791
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 03:08
RedArmyShogun
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I suspect Aegon will still win the War with his Cousin's (Dany) help honestly. Tommen might be taken up in mentorship to run Casterly Rock, I doubt he'll sit on the throne though I mean his mothers "crimes" are known to the 7. Or rather the new high sept.
So no way he'll keep the throne, unless as a puppet. And Stannis, well face it, no one likes him, and no Lannister of Note is left that isn't either in prision, dead, a hopeless case, or went over to the Dragons. The Over Glorified Crazy Viking King with a Ship of Mutes? Not a F'n chance, he's insane.
So no way he'll keep the throne, unless as a puppet. And Stannis, well face it, no one likes him, and no Lannister of Note is left that isn't either in prision, dead, a hopeless case, or went over to the Dragons. The Over Glorified Crazy Viking King with a Ship of Mutes? Not a F'n chance, he's insane.
Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 14 juin 2012 - 03:10 .
#792
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 03:09
LPPrince
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Volus Warlord wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
I would give that to Myrcella, actually.Seagloom wrote...
Tommen is probably the best chance House Lannister has; assuming he grows up into an intelligent and respected lord.
Yeah.. that's a decent point..
Tommen was raised to be Cersei's little yes man for her power trip. Myrcella.. not so much.
Given, Tommen is only eight, so there is a chance to undo the damage done by Cersei's shortsightedness and tunnel vision, but who's gonna be the mentor?
Margaery Tyrell?
#793
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 03:10
LPPrince
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Confess-A-Bear wrote...
I suspect Aegon will still win the War with his Cousin's (Dany) help honestly.
Also my guess. Just seems like what's going to happen. Hell, even Tyrion's on board.
#794
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 03:22
RedArmyShogun
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What would be neat is to see how Stannis reacts when he learns of it.
I mean he always screams on how he has the better claim, well what do you know, here is the guy that was in line to be king till your brother led his half baked overthrow. So if the whole deal isn't him wantting it, so much as "having" to take it, then here's one with better connection to it than him. So he by his own logic has to back him. Minus he's full of crap more likely that not.
On that note though is what if Davos finds the Last Stark? I mean you still have Stansa, but knowing Little Finger once Aegon starts pushing down with his Armies, he'll jump ship with her to him, but well face it Roose and the Frey's are screwed, slowly but surely, its just the whole Stark Line could be wiped out.
The other two, well I doubt one will come back over the wall, and the other, she likes being an assassin.
I mean he always screams on how he has the better claim, well what do you know, here is the guy that was in line to be king till your brother led his half baked overthrow. So if the whole deal isn't him wantting it, so much as "having" to take it, then here's one with better connection to it than him. So he by his own logic has to back him. Minus he's full of crap more likely that not.
On that note though is what if Davos finds the Last Stark? I mean you still have Stansa, but knowing Little Finger once Aegon starts pushing down with his Armies, he'll jump ship with her to him, but well face it Roose and the Frey's are screwed, slowly but surely, its just the whole Stark Line could be wiped out.
The other two, well I doubt one will come back over the wall, and the other, she likes being an assassin.
Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 14 juin 2012 - 03:22 .
#795
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 04:44
Megaton_Hope
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Drop the word march from your vocabulary for a minute.Confess-A-Bear wrote...
And you assume the Peasents will actively fight.
In every War ever the bulk of the population might mummble and grumble, or even praise you, but they never do march.
In the book I'm readin' now, Tyrion, Cersei, Joffrey and some other folks at one point get mobbed by unarmed peasants. Despite the armed retinue, they are basically helpless, and were lucky to escape with their lives. Not because there's anything particularly special about those peasants, it wasn't an organized attack or a planned uprising. There were just a lot of them, and they were pissed off.
That is the high wire act that the nobility is dealing with here. If you want to hold a city like King's Landing, you want the help of the ordinary people. You want your head on a pike while King Stannis marches into the gates, you starve and bully them.
'Far as the blockade, I was more thinking of running it (as we'll recall Davos used to do professionally) than actually fighting it. Pentos and Myr aren't far off; it shouldn't be too incredibly difficult to enlist aid, since the profit margin is astronomical with prices being so high in Westeros.
No I don't, I've got ravens.On the other hand it may take days or WEEKS to sail that distance. In the end its useless as you don't have to break the blockade once, but twice.
#796
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 04:53
RedArmyShogun
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Minus the fact you know nothing on War it seems. I would like to see your thoughts after your done with that book.
Given what happens. The Small folk didn't matter at all. Also Birds can be shot down, and Stannis had more and faster ships, but you go play the white knight.
Given what happens. The Small folk didn't matter at all. Also Birds can be shot down, and Stannis had more and faster ships, but you go play the white knight.
Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 14 juin 2012 - 04:54 .
#797
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 05:36
Megaton_Hope
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War, pft. I'm talking about statecraft. If you don't hold what you've got it does you no good taking more.
#798
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 05:38
RedArmyShogun
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Its as I said, they'll be mad, but they won't do crap. Countless examples of it. Only when a clear winner is in the open will they jump. Always has been that way. None of those people minus a handful did crap to help Stannis till the end. Some gold cloaks killed commanders, some people tried to open a gate. When Tywin and the Tyrells came it? Crickets.
Well minus they praised all the people whos throats they were set to slit. Then even after the tyrells and such helped them they are ready to do it again in later books. Just how it is. Loyalty is ficle. Statescraft is a fancy name for Bull ****. Keep just enough of your end of the deal, and they'll keep there end. You go down, don't expect the nation to jump in after you.
Well minus they praised all the people whos throats they were set to slit. Then even after the tyrells and such helped them they are ready to do it again in later books. Just how it is. Loyalty is ficle. Statescraft is a fancy name for Bull ****. Keep just enough of your end of the deal, and they'll keep there end. You go down, don't expect the nation to jump in after you.
Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 14 juin 2012 - 05:40 .
#799
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 06:03
GodWood
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It's more likely that Aegon is the prophesied "Mummer's Dragon" or at least Daenerys will think he is the Mummer's Dragon.LPPrince wrote...
Also my guess. Just seems like what's going to happen. Hell, even Tyrion's on board.Confess-A-Bear wrote...
I suspect Aegon will still win the War with his Cousin's (Dany) help honestly.
Either way I don't see them working together.
#800
Posté 14 juin 2012 - 06:43
Seagloom
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Addai67 wrote...
I would give that to Myrcella, actually.
I disqualified Myrcella due to her sex. Unless the feudal system Westeros runs on changes or something happens to Tommen in the interim, she cannot inherit lordship of House Lannister. Cersei had limited power outside what she could wield through her children despite being a dowager queen. Dany can buck the system somewhat because hey, dragons. Myrcella not so much.
Modifié par Seagloom, 14 juin 2012 - 06:45 .
