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A Song of Ice and Fire book discussion (spoilers)


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#1126
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A spider in the garden, man. A spider in every garden.

Varys may have bold terms like "order" and "the good of the realm" close to his heart, but good men will die under his watch (or knife) for that "greater good" to avoid the complications he knows (or at least believes he knows) will otherwise arise.

GRRM shies away from most major fantasy tropes, but order v. chaos is written all over that one.

 

Order v Chaos should be fundamental to anything political. Social stability brings prosperity; why would any character want chaos in ASOIAF? All the lords want their piece of cake, but no one is having cake when the person next to you has already eaten it, and is threatening everybody else to give theirs up.

 

Order v Chaos comes up plenty of times in literature. It's hardly something overused when the context demands it. GRR Martin does make it a point to be subtle though. It's not like their ulterior motives revolves around bringing peace for the sake of peace. They want order for prosperity and control; lords and land. Conflict isn't going to do anything for anybody until someone wins the game.



#1127
CrimsonN7

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Highlight of the show will be Stannis charging and kicking wilding ass.

 

Well, anything with Stannis the f*cking Mannis is gonna be a highlight anyway.

Fighting the real threat aye, winter is coming. Giants, mammoths and wildlings oh my. Seeing him joining forces with the crows to take the fight to Mance will be sweet.



#1128
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Will be interesting to see if Tyrion will manage to track Daenerys down and whether Varys is planning on placing a Targaryen on a throne as it is implied he was, along with planning ahead for Joffrey & Tywin's assassinations.



#1129
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Well, folks, Jeyne Westerling will appear in The Winds of Winter prologue (although she will not be the prologue POV herself):

 

http://www.westeros....Winter_Prologue



#1130
legion999

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Well, folks, Jeyne Westerling will appear in The Winds of Winter prologue (although she will not be the prologue POV herself):

 

http://www.westeros....Winter_Prologue

 

Huh, I wonder if we'll have another maester as a PoV then, since the prologue isn't in the North.



#1131
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If she's pregnant...

 

Well, that'll mean the Starks aren't really the misfortunate ones at all. As of now, the Lannisters are having a reeeeaaaaly bad time.

 

Still, it'll provide an opportunity for Stannis if he grabs it and takes control of the heir of Winterfell, however, it's also a huge blow to his claim on the North.

 

Knowing Stannis it would go the latter. He can't pull the strings, it's not like him. HE has to be king because it's HIS right, there's no 'regent' or 'hand' only 'king.'



#1132
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If she's pregnant...

Well, that'll mean the Starks aren't really the misfortunate ones at all. As of now, the Lannisters are having a reeeeaaaaly bad time.

Er, wasn't it revealed in AFFC that her mother gave her moon tea or something behind her back so she couldn't get pregnant?

#1133
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Er, wasn't it revealed in AFFC that her mother gave her moon tea or something behind her back so she couldn't get pregnant?

 

Is Moon Tea 100% guaranteed though?

 

If so...

 

I need to get me some of that.



#1134
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Big rant of mine over Daenerys. I don't hate her or particularly dislike her, but I think she needs a big dose of reality and to be knocked off her high horse:

 

A lot of the frustration and resistance to Dany is actually resistance to the idea that her ultimate success is being sold (by Martin [possibly misleadingly on his part], by her fans, what have you) as inevitable. I for one highly dislike the idea of anyone being on an unswerving, inevitable path to ultimate glory because 1. it undermines the urgency of the story, because "well we all know what's going to happen" and 2. it puts Dany's story arc in the hands of some kind of — unearned, unappreciated — godlike power. It doesn't matter how much Dany screws up, how stupidly she behaves, how much cruel and unusual punishment she dishes out, how many enemies she makes or how many deaths she's responsible for, because in the end none of it will matter. The "higher powers" will take care of everything, and she's just along for the ride. That just leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

I think there's a distinction between "liking" Dany as a person and "liking" what GRRM is doing with her character from a literary standpoint. Since AGOT, we've been looking at Dany solely through her eyes, relying on her personal likeability (comparatively) and the reactions of those around her (Jorah, Barristan, etc.) to "push" our views of her one way or the other, while seeing all of this in a cultural milieu that heavily prejudices the reader in favor of Dany (and those that follow her) and against pretty much everyone else she encounters in Essos. It's not until ADWD that we really start to realize how incredibly one-sided this whole narrative has been from the start, how heavily GRRM has been utilizing the "unreliable narrator" to mold Dany's arc, how many things we can read into her thoughts and actions that weren't always readily apparent in earlier books.
On the one hand, ADWD is the time when I most disliked Dany as a person. But on the other hand, ADWD also highlighted and clarified a number of the rather brilliant literary devices GRRM has actually been using all along with this character, and it casts a really fascinating light both on her previous actions and on the road ahead.

 

Basically, ADWD is the book that made me want to smack Dany for being terrible but hug GRRM for making her terrible in such a fascinating way.

Dany never actually was a "super competent girl genius". That's the whole point---she looked incredibly competent in the first three books simply because all of her adversaries were supremely incompetent. The tactics that seemed so brilliant at first---cheating the Astapori out of an Unsullied army and then slaughtering the Astapori nobility, "Dracarys!", freeing all the slaves so as to deprive the slavers of their armies---were "brilliant" only in the short term. ADWD is merely the point at which the inevitable consequences of Dany's actions finally started catching up with her: she now has a rather well-deserved reputation for treachery, so her word is mud and nobody believes she genuinely wants peace; setting an emissary's tokar on fire just added to her terrible reputation, cause really, what kind of person attacks an envoy?; and the same actions that allowed her to neutralize the slave armies of Astapor and Yunkai led to a situation where she's stuck with tens of thousands of useless hangers-on whom she cannot feed or protect from disease; etc., etc.

All of our other POVs are centered in Westeros, so we got multiple viewpoints on characters and groups of characters. With Dany, we spent the first three (and most of the fifth) books only seeing events from her perspective, so of course she was going to be portrayed in a positive light. But if we look at Dany's entire arc with a critical eye, certain discrepancies pop up even at the very beginning: for example, was she really as well-integrated into the Dothraki, and as well-respected by them, as she believed? Were her "great military victories" in Slaver's Bay a result of her natural military cunning, as Dany and her hangers-on believed, or were they the result of incompetent adversaries coupled with Dany's own appalling lack of foresight and judgment, as ADWD seems to show? Is being a Targaryen the answer to Dany's problems, or is it the root of those problems? Is Dany really "a dragon", as she desperately wants to believe, or is she merely an ordinary person who performed a magic ritual and started buying into her idiot brother's delusions?

She needs some real advisors, not Ser Jorah 'I'm in love with you and hate the Starks because they banished me for slavery' Mormont and Ser Barristan 'I have to help you win because all my life I've been so craven and foolish about everything and now you're my meal ticket' Selmy. As well, she really needs to start personally coming to terms with her flaws (which are on Joffrey/Aerys levels of bad) and definitely start paying for them more.

Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys, etc. have all done some truly spectacularly idiotic things, things which either led to their downfall or seem poised to lead to their downfall in the future. The idea that they've been portrayed as naturally "smarter" than Dany seems bizarre. Dany has never been taught how to rule, has never had a mentor to teach her to rule (the only advisor she ever had who ruled anything in his life was Jorah, whom she sent away right before declaring herself Queen of Meereen), and she hasn't even had the opportunity of watching another ruler (save Drogo, who wasn't exactly a good role model here). She's trying to rule a city when she 1) has never ruled anything in her life, 2) was never taught how to rule anything in her life, 3) has nobody around her who's ever ruled anything in their lives, and 4) has a superiority complex that's been consistently fed and ennabled by literally everyone around her.

The whole point is that anyone who was raised in exile by a delusional narcissist, who was never taught how to rule or play any political game, who believes her gut reaction is always the correct reaction because nobody ever calls her on her BS, and who surrounds herself with yes-men whose goals aren't always in line with hers, isn't just naturally going to succeed in ruling anything. She's not learning from her mistakes, not because she's somehow naturally stupid, but because she has nobody around her who's willing or able to point out those mistakes. If she had people like Donal Noye, Aemon Targaryen, LC Jeor Mormont, Mance Rayder, even freaking Ygritte---people to smack her down when she needed it---I doubt she'd be in the situation she's now in. But a major reason why she doesn't have these kinds of people is because you can't consider yourself the uber-special "blood of the dragon" and be willing to get smacked down by non-dragons.

She lost all right to the Iron Throne when she left it (even as an infant). Dany has perhaps unknowingly settled her own case in this regard, based on a plea she heard in Meereen. A woman whose family had been killed when Dany sacked the city had to flee her house and take shelter with her brother. After she left, the house was turned into a brothel. Dany refused to give the house back to her because she lost the rights to it when she left it. Based on Dany's logic, she lost the rights to Westeros when her family left it. But the rules she sets for others don't apply to her, apparently. Because dragons.

Dany thinks she'll be the savior of Westeros. But why would any readers ever believe she's correct in that assumption? Because that's the role someone in her position would take in a traditional cliche fantasy novel? Because beauty = goodness in this series? Because dragons have anywhere been portrayed as saviors, rather than as purveyers of destruction? Because GRRM has actually shown Dany having a good grasp on the principles of justice (nope), because GRRM has portrayed her as a keen political operator (uh, no), or because GRRM has given her troops that have been well-seasoned in the same conditions, military-wise and weather-wise, that they'll face in Westeros (nope)?

This is what I mean when I say I admire the literary techniques GRRM has used in crafting this character. We only ever see her from her own POV---imagine if we only saw Cersei's journey since AGOT through her POV. Nothing from the Starks, Tyrion, Davos, Jaime, or anyone else in Westeros---if everything in Westeros had been filtered through Cersei's POV from the beginning, I suspect Cersei'd look a hell of a lot better to readers than she does now. Dany believes she's a beautiful, wise, blessed, righteous, and eternally put-upon Queen. But a closer reading points us in very different directions. Dany can be seen as a stubborn, imperious, delusional child with uncontrollable WMDs and a messiah complex. She believes she has superhuman abilities that she objectively does not possess. She's superficial, naive, paranoid, vicious, and impulsive. She doesn't have the cultural knowledge, political skills, or military acumen that would point to "inevitable" success in Westeros, and she doesn't have the tools, ability, or time to compensate for that lack. And we only know this about her through a close reading of her chapters. If we believe Dany herself, she's wonderful. But the point is that we're not supposed to blindly accept what our unreliable narrator tells us about how awesome and superhuman and clever she is.

 

We've spent four books watching her try---and fail---to fulfill the role of savior. I think it's becoming more and more obvious that GRRM hasn't been selling Dany's success as inevitable. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think if we actually look at everything Dany's done, GRRM appears to have been painstakingly outlining exactly why she's going to fail in conquering and ruling Westeros. In fact, sort of why she's not a player in the Game of Thrones, and why she's not a heroine, but a budding villainess.

Personally, I think she'll end up either dead, humiliated in Essos (but with a new lease on life where she doesn't have to be a queen or a conqueror, which should be good, considering the people of Essos are likely going to want to destroy her), or as the hot consort of whoever actually wins the Game of Thrones. If she's truly fortunate I suppose, she might end up with a reinstated House back on Dragonstone, though that would require Stannis being killed, and we can't have that. Granted, I highly suspect that whatever's left of Westeros will just be a wasteland overrun with Others and Wights.



#1135
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Personally, I think she'll end up either dead, humiliated in Essos (but with a new lease on life where she doesn't have to be a queen or a conqueror, which should be good, considering the people of Essos are likely going to want to destroy her), or as the hot consort of whoever actually wins the Game of Thrones. If she's truly fortunate I suppose, she might end up with a reinstated House back on Dragonstone, though that would require Stannis being killed, and we can't have that. Granted, I highly suspect that whatever's left of Westeros will just be a wasteland overrun with Others and Wights.

Daenerys is most certainly, IMO, going to stop the Others. She's very much the hero of prophecy of that world - but people confuse that with the hero of prophecy of fantasy novels, and forget that ASOIAF is in a lot of ways a deconstruction. She's not going to get her perfect marriage, eternal love, utopian kingdom, etc. But she does have dragons, she does fit a prophecy about a savior, and she's had a number of visions centered around that destiny. 

 

It's like how she saved Drogo, though. He was alive, but not really living. Much the same way, she'll save westeros, but she won't be the stereotypical savior. 


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#1136
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http://www.cnn.com/2...hrones-america/

The comparison of Tywin Lannister in this article with Dick Cheney is spot on. lol

#1137
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Daenerys is most certainly, IMO, going to stop the Others. She's very much the hero of prophecy of that world - but people confuse that with the hero of prophecy of fantasy novels, and forget that ASOIAF is in a lot of ways a deconstruction. She's not going to get her perfect marriage, eternal love, utopian kingdom, etc. But she does have dragons, she does fit a prophecy about a savior, and she's had a number of visions centered around that destiny. 

 

It's like how she saved Drogo, though. He was alive, but not really living. Much the same way, she'll save westeros, but she won't be the stereotypical savior. 

 

I disagree completely, and I highlighted why I did already, but I'll repeat the relevant parts for you:

 

A lot of the frustration and resistance to Dany is actually resistance to the idea that her ultimate success is being sold (by Martin [possibly misleadingly on his part], by her fans, what have you) as inevitable. I for one highly dislike the idea of anyone being on an unswerving, inevitable path to ultimate glory because 1. it undermines the urgency of the story, because "well we all know what's going to happen" and 2. it puts Dany's story arc in the hands of some kind of — unearned, unappreciated — godlike power. It doesn't matter how much Dany screws up, how stupidly she behaves, how much cruel and unusual punishment she dishes out, how many enemies she makes or how many deaths she's responsible for, because in the end none of it will matter. The "higher powers" will take care of everything, and she's just along for the ride. That just leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

 

Dany thinks she'll be the savior of Westeros. But why would any readers ever believe she's correct in that assumption? Because that's the role someone in her position would take in a traditional cliche fantasy novel? Because beauty = goodness in this series? Because dragons have anywhere been portrayed as saviors, rather than as purveyers of destruction? Because GRRM has actually shown Dany having a good grasp on the principles of justice (nope), because GRRM has portrayed her as a keen political operator (uh, no), or because GRRM has given her troops that have been well-seasoned in the same conditions, military-wise and weather-wise, that they'll face in Westeros (nope)?

 

We've spent four books watching her try---and fail---to fulfill the role of savior. I think it's becoming more and more obvious that GRRM hasn't been selling Dany's success as inevitable. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think if we actually look at everything Dany's done, GRRM appears to have been painstakingly outlining exactly why she's going to fail in conquering and ruling Westeros. In fact, why she's not a player in the Game of Thrones, and why she's not a heroine, but a budding villainess.

 

Seriously man, if anyone is going to end up the winner or on top, it's the Others. Jon and Stannis are the only people trying to actually do something about the others in the entire realm. And Littlefinger and Varys are the only ones actively preparing for Daenerys.

 

Not to mention, Daenerys is so completely out of touch with Westeros and the reality of the past and present. She thinks she has some claim to place she's never been too and relies solely on a heavily fictionalized and skewed story of the past created by her insane brother who was eight-years old at the time, the story being that her family was the most beautiful, just, loved, and generally awesome family ever, and that all the people who rebelled were insanely jealous of her family so they tried to kill them all. It's the kind of story you tell a 5 year old. Dany, despite acknowledging that her brother was a moron and completely nuts, still believes in this and utterly refuses to have anyone tell her otherwise. Barristan tries, but she's not receptive to hearing about it, and even then he's an ass-kisser to an extent (like Ser Jorah) who's relying on her more as a meal ticket. She has a horrible sense of entitlement, thinking that the throne of a country that ousted her family via popular revolt is hers by birthright despite never setting foot in said country and being completely oblivious (and intentionally so) to the politics and culture of the country, thinking that the people of Westeros have been waiting for nearly 17 years for the return of the righteous and beautiful Queen Daenerys, Aegon the Conqueror reborn. Most of them don't even know she's alive, nor do they care. 

 

Plus, she blew off the Martell's, the only family in Westeros willing to actually help her win the Iron Throne (and who has a full, fresh army from staying out of the wars), who are probably turning on to fAegon to support his bid (if he turns out to be real) instead. She's not very good at making wise decisions. Hell, the only reason I see anyone supporting her is because they think she's hot. 

 

There's no way this is going to come anywhere close to what you think. As I said, I think the best case scenario for her is that she will end up as Jon's consort (if R+L=J is true). 


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#1138
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http://www.cnn.com/2...hrones-america/

The comparison of Tywin Lannister in this article with Dick Cheney is spot on. lol

 

Eh.... That thing insulted god-tier Tywin by comparing him to Dick Cheney.



#1139
Captain Obvious

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Daenerys is most certainly, IMO, going to stop the Others. She's very much the hero of prophecy of that world - but people confuse that with the hero of prophecy of fantasy novels, and forget that ASOIAF is in a lot of ways a deconstruction. She's not going to get her perfect marriage, eternal love, utopian kingdom, etc. But she does have dragons, she does fit a prophecy about a savior, and she's had a number of visions centered around that destiny. 

 

It's like how she saved Drogo, though. He was alive, but not really living. Much the same way, she'll save westeros, but she won't be the stereotypical savior. 

lol There's nothing stating that she's "the hero of prophecy." In fact, there's nothing stating that the prophecy is indeed real. 



#1140
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"There will be plenty of deaths, plenty of deaths, including some viewpoint characters."



#1141
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I hope that means there's going to be a big war. Hasn't really been a good one yet. 



#1142
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I hope that means there's going to be a big war. Hasn't really been a good one yet. 

Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords not good enough?


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#1143
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"There will be plenty of deaths, plenty of deaths, including some viewpoint characters."

I'm placing my bet on Areo Hotah, aka "The Human Camera".

#1144
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Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords not good enough?

I was thinking more white walker invasion. About time it happened anyway. 



#1145
Treacherous J Slither

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I disagree completely, and I highlighted why I did already, but I'll repeat the relevant parts for you:

 

A lot of the frustration and resistance to Dany is actually resistance to the idea that her ultimate success is being sold (by Martin [possibly misleadingly on his part], by her fans, what have you) as inevitable. I for one highly dislike the idea of anyone being on an unswerving, inevitable path to ultimate glory because 1. it undermines the urgency of the story, because "well we all know what's going to happen" and 2. it puts Dany's story arc in the hands of some kind of — unearned, unappreciated — godlike power. It doesn't matter how much Dany screws up, how stupidly she behaves, how much cruel and unusual punishment she dishes out, how many enemies she makes or how many deaths she's responsible for, because in the end none of it will matter. The "higher powers" will take care of everything, and she's just along for the ride. That just leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

 

Dany thinks she'll be the savior of Westeros. But why would any readers ever believe she's correct in that assumption? Because that's the role someone in her position would take in a traditional cliche fantasy novel? Because beauty = goodness in this series? Because dragons have anywhere been portrayed as saviors, rather than as purveyers of destruction? Because GRRM has actually shown Dany having a good grasp on the principles of justice (nope), because GRRM has portrayed her as a keen political operator (uh, no), or because GRRM has given her troops that have been well-seasoned in the same conditions, military-wise and weather-wise, that they'll face in Westeros (nope)?

 

We've spent four books watching her try---and fail---to fulfill the role of savior. I think it's becoming more and more obvious that GRRM hasn't been selling Dany's success as inevitable. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think if we actually look at everything Dany's done, GRRM appears to have been painstakingly outlining exactly why she's going to fail in conquering and ruling Westeros. In fact, why she's not a player in the Game of Thrones, and why she's not a heroine, but a budding villainess.

 

Seriously man, if anyone is going to end up the winner or on top, it's the Others. Jon and Stannis are the only people trying to actually do something about the others in the entire realm. And Littlefinger and Varys are the only ones actively preparing for Daenerys.

 

Not to mention, Daenerys is so completely out of touch with Westeros and the reality of the past and present. She thinks she has some claim to place she's never been too and relies solely on a heavily fictionalized and skewed story of the past created by her insane brother who was eight-years old at the time, the story being that her family was the most beautiful, just, loved, and generally awesome family ever, and that all the people who rebelled were insanely jealous of her family so they tried to kill them all. It's the kind of story you tell a 5 year old. Dany, despite acknowledging that her brother was a moron and completely nuts, still believes in this and utterly refuses to have anyone tell her otherwise. Barristan tries, but she's not receptive to hearing about it, and even then he's an ass-kisser to an extent (like Ser Jorah) who's relying on her more as a meal ticket. She has a horrible sense of entitlement, thinking that the throne of a country that ousted her family via popular revolt is hers by birthright despite never setting foot in said country and being completely oblivious (and intentionally so) to the politics and culture of the country, thinking that the people of Westeros have been waiting for nearly 17 years for the return of the righteous and beautiful Queen Daenerys, Aegon the Conqueror reborn. Most of them don't even know she's alive, nor do they care. 

 

Plus, she blew off the Martell's, the only family in Westeros willing to actually help her win the Iron Throne (and who has a full, fresh army from staying out of the wars), who are probably turning on to fAegon to support his bid (if he turns out to be real) instead. She's not very good at making wise decisions. Hell, the only reason I see anyone supporting her is because they think she's hot. 

 

There's no way this is going to come anywhere close to what you think. As I said, I think the best case scenario for her is that she will end up as Jon's consort (if R+L=J is true). 

 

Dany isn't some fairy tale hero. She's hot and she has dragons and an army and currently rules a city state. She is a warlord plain and simple. She may tell herself all kinds of things and other characters tell her all kinds of things as well but we as readers see what's actually going on. She is planning on conquering Westeros by force not diplomacy and she is gathering the means to do so. She has a destiny but she must take an active role in it. If someone is swinging a sword at her she must fight back. She can't just stand there and expect her assailant to be felled by some omnipotent force. It is only her destiny if she survives to see it through.

 

She wouldn't have come as far as she had if she didn't take up the role her brother and others were screaming in her face. Probably would have died in the desert with her pedo husband. I like her character but I don't delude myself into thinking she's a good person or anything. I can like a character without liking the kind of person they are. She has done a lot of things that I would never do if I were in her shoes but some of these things have lead to her survival where I would have probably made matters worse or even gotten myself killed.

 

I believe she is the messiah and her army will defeat the Others and save Westeros. She may not end up on the Iron Throne and she may not even live to see the end of the battle but I believe A Song Of Ice And Fire is about her army clashing with and hopefully defeating the Others.



#1146
Steelcan

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Dany probably won't leave Essos



#1147
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Dany isn't some fairy tale hero. She's hot and she has dragons and an army and currently rules a city state. She is a warlord plain and simple. She may tell herself all kinds of things and other characters tell her all kinds of things as well but we as readers see what's actually going on. She is planning on conquering Westeros by force not diplomacy and she is gathering the means to do so. She has a destiny but she must take an active role in it. If someone is swinging a sword at her she must fight back. She can't just stand there and expect her assailant to be felled by some omnipotent force. It is only her destiny if she survives to see it through.

 

She wouldn't have come as far as she had if she didn't take up the role her brother and others were screaming in her face. Probably would have died in the desert with her pedo husband. I like her character but I don't delude myself into thinking she's a good person or anything. I can like a character without liking the kind of person they are. She has done a lot of things that I would never do if I were in her shoes but some of these things have lead to her survival where I would have probably made matters worse or even gotten myself killed.

 

I believe she is the messiah and her army will defeat the Others and save Westeros. She may not end up on the Iron Throne and she may not even live to see the end of the battle but I believe A Song Of Ice And Fire is about her army clashing with and hopefully defeating the Others.

lol Doesn't matter if she is or isn't a "fairy-tale hero." She's a bland character and she isn't a hero AT ALL. She has the blood of children on her hands. She's a person that dishes out "collective punishment", basically that everyone of one particular group must suffer for the same crime. She's an inept ruler who distabilized a region that was in relative peace until she came along. There is nothing saying that she's Azor Ahai or anything like that. For all we know, the Azor Ahai myth could be just a bunch of bullshit. But let's say it turns out to be true. Well, guess what? She still has blood on her hands, blood she could have avoided and that's that. Unfortunately, she refuses to accept that. 


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#1148
Treacherous J Slither

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lol Doesn't matter if she is or isn't a "fairy-tale hero." She's a bland character and she isn't a hero AT ALL. She has the blood of children on her hands. She's a person that dishes out "collective punishment", basically that everyone of one particular group must suffer for the same crime. She's an inept ruler who distabilized a region that was in relative peace until she came along. There is nothing saying that she's Azor Ahai or anything like that. For all we know, the Azor Ahai myth could be just a bunch of bullshit. But let's say it turns out to be true. Well, guess what? She still has blood on her hands, blood she could have avoided and that's that. Unfortunately, she refuses to accept that. 

 

Why did you quote my post? It doesn't seem as if you've argued against anything that i've said...



#1149
Malanek

Malanek
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Er, wasn't it revealed in AFFC that her mother gave her moon tea or something behind her back so she couldn't get pregnant?

Firstly it may not have worked, secondly her mother would say or do anything to advance, protect and ingratiate her family. If Jeyne was pregnant, her mother would not admit it. There is also a theory that who Jaime saw wasn't even Jeyne. The description from his PoV is completely different than from Catelyns PoV, which led people to believe Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish and the person Jaime saw was actually her sister. GRRM did downplay this description issue as a mistake on his part but I still think it is an awesome theory.



#1150
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
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Danny is a mook who i hope ends up with her head on a pike outside the red keep.

 

Her mouth forever in a gaped jut as if proclaiming:

 

"where are my dragons?!"