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[Maria13]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

 The Meereen plot was the weakest part of the book. There was so much build-up to the battle and actual Westeros characters meeting Dany that I felt disappointed in the end. There wasn't a climax. That, and George really could have trim some of the chapters. 

It's still better than A Feast for Crows.

Also, anyone else notice the impending Greyscale plague that's going to hit Westeros? 

Agreed on the Meereen chapters. Saw a parallell between Dany and Jon struggling with the inherent difficulties of leadership attempting to civilize things a bit and meeting so much resistence.

For all their unpleasantness the Reek chapters were outstanding as were the prologue AND the epilogue.

@Addai agreed Mance and spearwives awesome!!!

Yes. There's always been death, then we've had war and famine. Plague's turn now.

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
Dany's chapters.. I'm having a hard time with them.

Yeah, for me, as of about page ~300, Dany's chapters are the only thing dragging the book, everything else is great, especially everything in the North.

It is known.

[Eski.Moe]

Dany's development could have been in a much more concise way. I just point to aGoT. She goes through a lot and it shows. We don't need to be privy to each of her days whereas in this one, she just hangs about Meeren. Maybe this is the Meerenese Knot that GRRM mentioned?
I still believe what happened could have been condensed and have been better for it.

[SarEnyaDor]

Dany's earlier chapters were slower... especially since I was waiting for Bran or Arya or Sansa (which never happened grrr!) but her last chapter wasn't bad. I'm going to go and look it up in GoT (or maybe wiki it) but I think the Khal she meets at the end was the same Ko which was super hateful to her and took off first. Also, I suspect that it was more than just her moon blood. But I loved all the Tyrion chapters and I found it interesting how Val reacted to Stannis's little girl's condition. I can not believe we didn't hear anything about Sam and Oldtown. I want to know more about the Maester vs Magic plot, dammit.

[Addai]

Okay, Dany's story just got a lot more interesting. 

[Fallstar]

 EPIC SPOILERS READ ON AT YOUR PERIL

Do not read unless you have finished the book.









NO SERIOUSLY! Stop NOW!








FINAL WARNING






I don't think Jon  is actually dead. I think that him "not even feeling the fourth blade" can be read two ways
a) He's actually dead
he's no longer conscious in that body

IMO he warged into Ghost. Although that would totally be ripping off Robin Hobb's assassin books, I still think it's a possibility. It also fits that prophecy of Azor Azai, with his wounds smoking and all. I also vaguely remember it being mentioned in previous books that Jon would be both the 998th commander of the wall and the 1000th. He was the 998th, gets betrayed by someone else who becomes the 999th commmander, then he rises as Azor Azai to become the 1000th commander again.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 19 juillet 2011 - 05:13 .

[SarEnyaDor]

To make us sad... or to be the plot device to get the other two dragons set loose *and* make us sad.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 19 juillet 2011 - 05:39 .

[Pacifien]

Capt. Obvious wrote...
And having the Dornish alliance fail. Thing is, I don't think George needed a POV for the character. We could have learned everything we needed to know from Baristan's POV. 

I've told people before that I didn't think Storm of Swords was all the greatest because I felt that GRRM was falling into the trap of more is better.

Now, forums such as these thrive on the concept of the more you know, the better the world is. I mean, it's a place to analyze the biological differences of species in Mass Effect or ponder the history of the Chantry for Dragon Age in a manner that far exceeds the amount of thought that was originally put into it. So for people who dig such depth, GRRM is their golden boy who will make sure you know just how many turnips made it into that trencher and what kind of **** comes out when you die. Among other things such as exactly how someone like Prince Quentyn makes it from point A to B to C to D to E. People are going to find that interesting. You really get to delve into the whys of a character. Regardless of whether you need to or not.

And did we need to know Quentyn Martell? His tale makes a nice short story within this larger story, but I'd say it wasn't necessary. Capt. Obvious is right in that the critical aspect of Quentyn's story could be told through the observations of both Dany and Barristan Selmy. And everything we didn't see could be left to our imaginations.

[Eski.Moe]

Yeah, Quentyn could have been handled through other POVs and achieved the same effect. I mean, if he'd been introduced in an earlier book then maybe I'd care more of the eventual outcome but like has been said, he seems to be a plot device. Yeah, he's a nice guy and it's a shame that he got roasted but he was just bland and was just an example of unnecessary fluff that the book was pretty full of. Still, I know the middle act is to set up the grand finale so I hope the pace picks up.
Theon's chapters were probably the hardest for me to read but very, very interesting. Gave a lot of info. I also did not pick up the Frey Pie until it was pointed out, haha.

[In Exile]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Another thing that bothers me: what was the point of Prince Quentyn? We followed his chapters only for him to die. What made him so important?

He freed the dragons.

And I bet it will be one reason why the Martells will side with Aegon against Daenerys.  

[In Exile]

Pacifien wrote...
And did we need to know Quentyn Martell? His tale makes a nice short story within this larger story, but I'd say it wasn't necessary. Capt. Obvious is right in that the critical aspect of Quentyn's story could be told through the observations of both Dany and Barristan Selmy. And everything we didn't see could be left to our imaginations.

This is what killed AFfC, too. 

Though I put my money on ADwD really having refered to a conflict between Aegon & Daenerys, just like the previous dance of dragons. Though we don't know if that'll come to pass now, with so many books to go and it not being 2035 yet. 

[twincast]

Yeah, I gotta agree, his was an important part in the plot*, but nothing in that needed him to be a POV. Mind, it only bothers me a bit because I would have liked a couple more AFfC POV chapters.

*Telling Dany of the marriage pact with Dorne, freeing the dragons (which needed to be chained and nearly killed), being the sun that rises in the west and sets in the east and getting Selmy to promise Pentos to the Tattered Prince.

Modifié par twincast, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:07 .

[KenKenpachi]

Hmm, just finished and got to say, the last parts of the book were a pain to read, given how boring some of it was. But I find myself wonderding if Stannis is really Dead or not, Dany girls fate, and the fate of the nigh****ch. I mean They just killed Jon, and I'll wager the Wildinglings at the least, who outnumber them by a huge number won't take that kindly. And given its Winter, a Civil War on the Wall may very well allow the "others" to cross over.

[Addai]

I finished last night *rubs bleary eyes* and I'm not disappointed with any of the story lines. Selmy and Kevan, I love those old guys, and they gave us some Rhaegar glimpses. Quentyn's story was sad, and makes Papa Martell's story sadder, too. I don't foresee Aegon and Daenerys clashing, though. It wasn't her fault that Quentyn died. The two Targaryens will have to work together, assuming both of them survive and continue to win victories.

Lots of cliffhangers, oh my. How long til book six?!

[Addai]

Pacifien wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...
And having the Dornish alliance fail. Thing is, I don't think George needed a POV for the character. We could have learned everything we needed to know from Baristan's POV. 

I've told people before that I didn't think Storm of Swords was all the greatest because I felt that GRRM was falling into the trap of more is better.

Now, forums such as these thrive on the concept of the more you know, the better the world is. I mean, it's a place to analyze the biological differences of species in Mass Effect or ponder the history of the Chantry for Dragon Age in a manner that far exceeds the amount of thought that was originally put into it. So for people who dig such depth, GRRM is their golden boy who will make sure you know just how many turnips made it into that trencher and what kind of **** comes out when you die. Among other things such as exactly how someone like Prince Quentyn makes it from point A to B to C to D to E. People are going to find that interesting. You really get to delve into the whys of a character. Regardless of whether you need to or not.

Well, Mr. Cynical. lol  I am that kind of reader, and how he's proceeding is fine by me.  "Need to" is a matter of opinion.  And I've seen recent statements by GRRM that he writes for atmosphere and not just for main plot.  So, I guess you can either get used to it or read something else and wait for the TV show/ movie to come out.

Why are people so hung up on Quentyn's story?  He had, what, three POV chapters?  We hardly followed him as closely as Tyrion or Jon.  If you're that worried by page count- like I said- save yourself some aggravation and move on.

[KenKenpachi]

Hmm I liked the book overall just some of it didn't flow as the earlier works did. In any case I hope it won't be several years till the next book.

[Pacifien]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add the disclaimer that I like reading the books. My critique was not meant to convey that I think GRRM's writing and his story were horrible so much as to say it is not perfect.

[Maria13]

@ Addai yeah, Kevan always in Tywin's shadow but he nearly pulled the kingdoms together by himself... He was doing too well, as Varys says.

[Mondo47]

I have little to say other than I love Brienne the Blue Knight and in my best hysterical voice "Leave Sansa alone!"

Actually, I do have something to ask, though more of a general question regarding this kind of treatment of the fantasy genre - fantasy does have a kind of prototypical nature when it comes to contemporary writing in the field; almost everything nods to Tolkien and other peers of his generation be it in representation of elves, dwarves, gobins, trolls, etc. and worlds tend to be fairly rich and well-founded in magic (even if it is still something mysterious and wonderful to the common folk in these worlds). And while there is war, duplicity, murder and romance, the majority of the time it is kept shrouded and veneered enough to shield the reader from the worst brutality of medieval warfare or the base explicitness of sexual relationships or even sexual violence. Martin and a few other writers have taken a more mature stance with the genre, and left us with worlds that lack our familiar little people from under the mountains or streaming-haired bowmen from the deep forests or even a fireball or two to lob around.

My question - how does this sit with you the reader? Does it still feel like fantasy, or more a retelling of medieval history? Is Martin's universe richer or poorer for it? How does the complete unflinching nature of it all leave you? China Meiville has described the slavish attachment to Tolkien-like worlds as "a wen on the arse of fantasy" - would you agree or disagree when looking at the world of Ice & Fire?

[KenKenpachi]

Honestly it reminds me more of the Conan Style Fantasy, which I tend to prefer. I find it to be better than the works of Tolkien, but thats a matter of my own tastes. Though I wouldn't mind if Elfs and such were in it, but its no nevermind. I think its the Style of how its wrote, for example, even though its more Fantasy Heavy I enjoy the War of the Dwarves book.

[Pacifien]

Mondo47 wrote...
My question - how does this sit with you the reader? Does it still feel like fantasy, or more a retelling of medieval history?

While I'd classify it as fantasy, it actually doesn't feel like fantasy to me at first. I'd describe it as a medieval-period story simply because that helps someone identify the setting of the story easier than describing it as a fantasy. They'll grasp the idea of knights in armor, bloody battles, and political intrigue in conditions ripe for the bubonic plague.

If I told them it was a fantasy, I have no idea how they'd take it. Perhaps they feel all fantasy must be Dungeons and Dragons, which to me captures the stereotype of the genre better than to say Tolkienesque. Elves are lithe, dwarves are drunks, goblins are monstrous, and there be dragons. Very stereotypical fantasy elements. If someone went into reading A Game of Thrones with that expectation, how disappointed they would be. The novels don't cater toward focusing and reveling in such fantasy.

The fifth book, however, is pretty fantastic. Dany's dragons are acting like dragons. The Children of the Forest are acting like a fantasy race. People are doing what can only be described as magic. There was always hints that the world was like this, but GRRM has only recently started to show it.

Pity he then had to say that world was slowly dying. The rise of mankind ruins everything!