1269 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Mondo47 wrote...
My question - how does this sit with you the reader? Does it still feel like fantasy, or more a retelling of medieval history? Is Martin's universe richer or poorer for it? How does the complete unflinching nature of it all leave you? China Meiville has described the slavish attachment to Tolkien-like worlds as "a wen on the arse of fantasy" - would you agree or disagree when looking at the world of Ice & Fire?

I'm a Tolkien fan and always will be.  Why people go on about Tolkien being too great an influence I'll never understand.  He drew on the Eddas and Celtic mythology, with some ancient Britain in the mix, and much fantasy is rooted in the same place, so is it any surprise that there would be familiar themes?  It's not like he invented dwarves and elves.  If those authors or critics don't like it, then they should write their own epics set in a different universe and stop nattering about "slavish attachments."  Pfeh.

GRRM cites Tolkien as a big influence for ASoIaF, too.  He says it's his template for how to construct a long epic, and he likes Tolkien.  So there's that.  It's undoubtedly richer for it.  I don't consider his approach more "mature"- explicit sex and violence is not mature- it's just different in that he wants you to see, smell and feel even the gruesome details.

The series has been light on the supernatural and mythology up until this book.  It often does read like a historical fiction novel rather than fantasy.  A Dance With Dragons has more of the high fantasy and horror elements.  He's pulling back the curtain a little on the mysteries of that universe.  I have mixed feelings about that.  I thought he did it really well- there's nothing I've disliked about his mythology- but I hope he leaves some of the mysteries alone.

[Mondo47]

Pacifien wrote...

While I'd classify it as fantasy, it actually doesn't feel like fantasy to me at first. I'd describe it as a medieval-period story simply because that helps someone identify the setting of the story easier than describing it as a fantasy. They'll grasp the idea of knights in armor, bloody battles, and political intrigue in conditions ripe for the bubonic plague.

If I told them it was a fantasy, I have no idea how they'd take it. Perhaps they feel all fantasy must be Dungeons and Dragons, which to me captures the stereotype of the genre better than to say Tolkienesque. Elves are lithe, dwarves are drunks, goblins are monstrous, and there be dragons. Very stereotypical fantasy elements. If someone went into reading A Game of Thrones with that expectation, how disappointed they would be. The novels don't cater toward focusing and reveling in such fantasy.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for why I read the first book in a weekend and immediately went out and bought the second. I loved LotR when I read it in my early teens, and my uncle gave me a copy of Raymond E Feist's Magician for a birthday and I loved that too. Still do - some nights, only Kulgan, Fantus and Pug can make me relax. I would argue that D&D would never have stoked those symbolic fires in the fantasy races without Tolkien lighting the wick good and proper, but to find a world with no tall fair people who are nifty with bows, or short bearded alcoholics that like a good scrap... it felt very new to me. Vital. Innovative. Fresh. Other authors have done it, sure, but Martin was the first for me. And you never forget your first

I love also that he writes women well; he captures the full spectrum of female capacity, character and spirit... fantasy in my experience at least seems to relegate women to princesses in towers, imperious queens, or scheming witches and b*tches. Second fiddles to guide heroes or get rescued. I doubt many writers would have written Brienne as unappealing physically (by typical standards at least), or Cersei as f*cking repellant between the ears (by anyone's standards) - and it's the realism of those two characters I've come to adore. Most of his characters in fact, while some are packing masses of negative traits, I want to hug or slug most of them, and I love I feel so invested in them that they really do make me happy or angry to experience their victories and defeats - probably moreso than in any other series I've read...

How I squealed with delight when Viserys finally got his crown

[Pacifien]

Mondo47 wrote...
I love also that he writes women well; he captures the full spectrum of female capacity, character and spirit... fantasy in my experience at least seems to relegate women to princesses in towers, imperious queens, or scheming witches and b*tches. Second fiddles to guide heroes or get rescued.

Part of why I initially disliked Sansa in the first novel was because she appeared to be written with this stereotype in mind, and I could only see GRRM writing her that way simply to kill her off and say "sucks to be you, princess!" Instead, he seems to be writing a girl who starts off with dreams of heroes and rescue and, instead of being punished left and right for her naitivity, is actually growing out of it. As in growing up. I like that.

Mondo47 wrote...
How I squealed with delight when Viserys finally got his crown

I wonder if a dragon's tail is whip-like enough to flay a Bolton?

[Mondo47]

I felt the same to begin with, but now I don't know... by the third book I was starting to think "Oh, what horrible indignity is the poor kid going to be put through now?" I've got to a point where I just want it to stop. I get it already, George - you don't like bratty kids!

Modifié par Mondo47, 21 juillet 2011 - 07:06 .

[Pacifien]

Any horrible indignities GRRM can put any character through seems to be permanently trumped by Reek. Oh yes, there I go practically daring the universe to make GRRM prove me wrong.

[Maria13]

It feels like fantasy to me. The type of fantasy I can tolerate. Game of Thrones begins with zombies up north and ends with dragons down south. In between the powerful, the haves and sometimes the have nots are playing lethal games with each other...

I personally can't stand Tolkien I find his prose leaden, his plotting suspect and his characterization too black and white.

[Addai]

I think one distinction that can be made is that Tolkien reads like medieval literature (Nibelungenlied, Song of Roland etc.) and not like a modern novel, whether of fantasy or historical fiction. A medieval epic will pause for a description of a landscape, feast or clothing; it will pause for a verse or historical anecdote; the characters are meant to be more archetypes than fully-fleshed characters. Tolkien did not set out to write novels. The fact that The Hobbit and to a lesser extent LoTR read like novels is, I think, because editors told him to write it that way and fans responded.

In that respect I do think GRRM shows inspiration from Tolkien. He's not afraid to pause and elaborate on a feast or tell a side story. His world has deep history, and that is much a part of the present story. On that note I'll say I loved getting more bits about Valyria, the Free Cities, and Rhaegar! 

Modifié par Addai67, 21 juillet 2011 - 08:01 .

[LTD]

Spoilers for Dance.



Finished my dance, liked it well enough.

Theon's chapters were very  powerful. Terrible reading. In a good way!  What a wretched creature he was. His "My name is Theon. You have to remember your name." was easily the best and most satisfying closing any of the POV chars got....
...Which isn't saying a whole lot considering how little any of the major characters/storylines  advanced.  I love the world Ser GRMM has created and really don't mind much when he decides to stop by the road to stomp flowers for 1800 pages, rather than pushing onwards with the story. Had I been waiting for 5+++ years rather than just one, surely I'd be climbing the(m) wall(s) though. But yas, I read Dance  in utter fanboy mode rather than bitterly  searching for flaws, thusly really enjoyed it.  Only place I found unbearably slow and  still was Meereen.

Since...uhhh, prologue of the 1st book, it has been  pretty well established SoIaF isn't anything one could call low fantasy.Still, it is undeniable the supernatural elements are playing increasingly growing part and are surrounding and effecting increasing amount of main characters. It does grim things to some of the cliffhangers. Like Jon's. Surely " Nobody" actually thinks he is dead? I'm guessing  " Everybody" believes he either gets simply resurrected on spot by Melissandre or at the very least wargs about happily as Ghost til Brann does some crazy voodoo biz.  There's too much magic around to make it feel like a " life or death??" situation. Instead, it feels irritating,unfulfilling and unnecessary way to end his story(for this book) It's like having a five year long commercial break in James Bond flick right  in middle of a scene where  Mr Bond is  falling from plane. Everybody knows he has a parachute in his shoe,nobody is biting  his/her finger nails.

Speaking of Wargs, at forums of Westeros.org, somebody noted how in all likelyhood Robb ended up in Grey Wind after/during being killed.Hadn't thought of this before. Must be irritating to die few times during same wedding.

Reek, Reek that rhymes with not a goddamned thing happens in Meereen during this entire book..eek.

Modifié par LTD, 22 juillet 2011 - 05:37 .

[Addai]

LTD wrote...
Reek, Reek that rhymes with not a goddamned thing happens in Meereen during this entire book.

Brain leak. 

I ended up liking Dany's story line by the end, but it did feel like it was dragging.  And I thought if I saw "Daario, Daario" one more time, I was going to gag.  Then again, she is a teenage girl and is supposed to be annoying.

No, I don't think Jon is dead.  The parallel to Varamyr Sixskins is too strong.  Over at westeros.org, people are saying he's Azor Ahai, and after a brief vacation in Ghost's body will be reborn in another.  It seems plausible to me.  Mel needs to wake up and smell the coffee.  Anyone else think Stannis is going to end up roasted on his own petard?  (edit- though I'm more worried about Shireen )

Modifié par Addai67, 22 juillet 2011 - 05:57 .

[LTD]

Addai67 wrote...

  Anyone else think Stannis is going to end up roasted on his own petard?  (edit- though I'm more worried about Shireen )

I'm hoping/thinking  bastard's letter (hahah, what a letter it was) is just Boltons falling to some sort of a ruse somehow  related to the feign siege set up by Umbers. That combined with pissed off Manderlys host finally getting some " alone time" with Freys sound like a potential mix.

...On the other hand, it feels entirely possible Stannis is currently enjoying some Bolton  hospitalities yas. It also feels entirely possible  GRMM actually was bastard enough to kill Stannis without letting readers even" see" it..   Is a good cliffhanger, that one.  Luckily we have better part of a decade to speculate.

Modifié par LTD, 22 juillet 2011 - 06:19 .

[Addai]

Aww, don't say that. Must think positively!

Lord Manderly's arc was maybe my favorite. OMFG. The fat guy has balls of iron. I also loved the description of the Merman hall, and Davos writing to his wife and kids got me all verklemmt.

[Addai]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

As for Quentyn, yeah, I could move on. But I think it's a legitimate concern. When the series started, Martin didn't use so many POVs to set up the atmosphere. Now it's starting to get a little out of hand. The fans back at the ASOIAF forums were even talking about this prior to ADWD's release.

The story's definitely getting bigger, but GRRM seems aware, especially with all his public comments about worrying that he'll be able to wrap it up.

Nosing through westeros.org, I see people are putting Quentyn down to fulfilling Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy of "when the sun sets in the east," and Dany's final chapter in general as pointing to those prophesies being fulfilled and Drogo coming back to her.  By that I'm guessing it will mean that the khalasar comes back to the fold.

[Tasmen]

Addai67 wrote...


Nosing through westeros.org, I see people are putting Quentyn down to fulfilling Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy of "when the sun sets in the east," and Dany's final chapter in general as pointing to those prophesies being fulfilled and Drogo coming back to her.  By that I'm guessing it will mean that the khalasar comes back to the fold.

That is exactly how I took it... the Khalasar coming back into the fold..  Back to where she started.

As to Jon being dead or not, I don't know.  I don't think his story is over.  He could come back in Ghost.  He could come back as someone else.  OR he could be healed from death like dear old mom.  The power of  red priest did give her life after all.

I just hope we don't have to wait forever and a day to find out.

[Addai]

Tasmen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


Nosing through westeros.org, I see people are putting Quentyn down to fulfilling Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy of "when the sun sets in the east," and Dany's final chapter in general as pointing to those prophesies being fulfilled and Drogo coming back to her.  By that I'm guessing it will mean that the khalasar comes back to the fold.

That is exactly how I took it... the Khalasar coming back into the fold..  Back to where she started.

Yes, and I think Drogon is the stallion that mounts the world.  I never thought of it before, but his name.... Drogon.  That's either complete coincidence, or Martin has been hitting us upside the head the whole time.  He's the son that Dany and Drogo brought forth together.

I am glad the dragons are free, and are showing that if they have food they won't hunt humans unless threatened.  Important for Dany, I think.  Pretty sure Victarion is bringing her the spelled horn that will help her control them.  She can ride Drogon, Aegon can ride Viserion, and Tyrion can ride Rhaegal.  Poifect! 

I just can't get over Manderly's pies.  :devil:<3   At westeros.org someone was showing an apron they had made of trollface Manderly holding a spatula and saying "You want Freys with that?"  AHAHAHAAA

Modifié par Addai67, 24 juillet 2011 - 02:40 .

[Brockololly]

Still reading and taking it relatively slow, but I've been reading a bunch today and am up to about page 550 in the hardcover.

Just chiming in to say Holy Crap with respect to Reek/Theon. I mean, damn. I just can't help but see him as a Gollum like creature now. At the end of ACoK I hated his guts for everything he did. I still don't like him for that, but damn he is a pitiable, pathetic creature now. Did Ramsay like, castrate him too!?

If the show ever gets to Reek/Theon that will be something else. I mean, damn, Ramsay Bolton has to be one of the most twisted characters in the books, likely up there with Aerys Targaryn. 

Modifié par Brockololly, 24 juillet 2011 - 08:37 .

[Addai]

I haven't read Harry Potter- explain please.

[twincast]

Brockololly wrote...

Did Ramsay like, castrate him too!?

It's heavily implied two or three times, so the magic 8 ball says yes.

[SarEnyaDor]

Where was it heavily implied? All that you're not a man, you're a dog, you're just Reek crap? I don't think he castrated him literally, just mentally. I think he would have listed that in his loss column when he was discussing how many fingers and toes he lost... think that would have trumped his pinkie toe in the listing.

[Brockololly]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Where was it heavily implied? All that you're not a man, you're a dog, you're just Reek crap? I don't think he castrated him literally, just mentally. I think he would have listed that in his loss column when he was discussing how many fingers and toes he lost... think that would have trumped his pinkie toe in the listing.

Page 499 of the hardcover is where it dawned on me- when Ramsay instructs Reek to "prep" his bride:

Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me."

For a moment he did not understand. "I... do you mean... m'lord, I have no...I..."

"With you mouth," Lord Ramsay said.

It could be he didn't mentally list off that Ramsay castrated or otherwise mutilated him down below when listing off his missing fingers/toes just cause its something he doesn't want to think about; that he's just totally blocking that out.


And Ramsay reminds me of Zaroff in The Most Dangerous Game, what with his proclivities towards hunting humans for sport....creepy...

Modifié par Brockololly, 25 juillet 2011 - 01:53 .

[Addai]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Where was it heavily implied? All that you're not a man, you're a dog, you're just Reek crap? I don't think he castrated him literally, just mentally. I think he would have listed that in his loss column when he was discussing how many fingers and toes he lost... think that would have trumped his pinkie toe in the listing.

Besides the wedding night bit, there's a point where Theon is listing off the things that got cut off and he says "and that other thing."

Best theory I've heard so far as to what happened is.... please don't look unless you're willing to delve into the mind of Ramsay Snow...


Ramsay flayed the skin and Theon begged him to cut it off.

Right.    So, anyone want to discuss some of the other mysteries of the book?

- Who is Septa Lemore?
- Who's the Harpy?
- Is Aegon the real deal?
- Could Tyrion be a Targaryen bastard?

Modifié par Addai67, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:39 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
Ramsay flayed the skin and Theon begged him to cut it off.

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh
:sick::sick::sick:

*runs away in horror to finish the book*

[Addai]

Yeah, that pretty much sums up the Reek chapters. I'll add that I don't think it's a "definite," just a maybe. There is also the theory that "the other thing" was his manhood in a general way, and that Ramsay might have raped him. He calls him "my Reek" and is very possessive, etc. Yeah, I hope Martin is cooking up something good for Ramsay and Roose both.

Something else to discuss... the implications of what we now know of skinchanging. Any animal mention becomes more significant with that, like the black cat that's mentioned in the Red Keep, and Mormont's crow.

[LTD]

Something else to discuss... the implications of what we now know of skinchanging. Any animal mention becomes more significant with that, like the black cat that's mentioned in the Red Keep, and Mormont's crow.

According to my gut,thisbig ol cat is the same one that once belonged to Rhaegar's children. I'm also guessing it is just a neat detail though,without any warging business or some such.

Modifié par LTD, 25 juillet 2011 - 05:27 .