378 réponses à ce sujet

[JustHonest]

Do you guys what's going on? The game is going into "**** hitting the fan" and there is going to be alot of dialog, but the universe is going to die. So there has to be some understanding to where the talking would take a seat so to speak, and not that talking is bad or does it need to be gone. it's going to be there in its amazingness, but the time hours and hours and hours of talking is come to a close its time to fight....

[I-am-Biwinning]

So has everyone forgotten that THIS THREAD WAS NOT MADE TO COMPARE ME1 AND ME2. We have plenty of threads that have gone on for hundreds of pages droning on about the same arguments for that. Yes ME1 was cluttered with unnecessary elements, and yes ME2 went too far by removing those elements without adding a refined version of them. We already have confirmed that Mass Effect 3 has corrected the mistakes of ME1 rather then removing those flawed elements like they did in ME2. Why is this thread not dead yet? People here seem to love making grand assumptions riddled with logical fallacies. Baseless, impertinent nitpicking of other member's posts appears to be just as popular. Could we perhaps focus on the topic? People need to read page 5, and hopefully after that you will actually look at the confirmed features.

[Phaedon]

Undertone wrote...
People act so high and mighty. Everyone has stereotypes, you have stereotypes. So please cut the act and don't pretend you don't. 

You defend someone who claims that stereotypes are based on reality by saying that "everyone has stereotypes?"

I for one don't yell "Criminal!" every time I see an ethnic minority on the street, and I demand for no one else to do so as well.

[Terror_K]

Someone With Mass wrote...

No exploration in ME2? Then what do you call the side missions with the crashed ships or the Prothean beacons?

Or is exploration = driving aimlessly on the same generic deserted planet in the Mako for fifteen minutes to find stuff marked out on the map that you don't really need beyond the XP you get for finding them?

Exploration = The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.

So ME2 had quite a lot of exploration once you think about it.

Exploration doesn't really work when you're led down a completely linear "A to B" path with no deviation though.

[Gunderic]

Phaedon wrote...

I won't even go start picking apart every single argument in this thread.

I think that the topic itself is not worthy of being anything that looked down upon.

I just have this to say:
ME2 had loot and it did have an inventory.

What it didn't have was randomized loot: Guns, upgrades, research, minerals, armour parts etc.

And it also didn't have a centralized inventory:
Weapon Selection component ------> Weapon Selection Screen
Upgrades -----> Lab Terminal
??? -----> Other Upgrades
Squad Armour micromanagement -----> ???

If you'd like to refer to the odd ammo supply/credit-leaking minigame as "loot" then, sure...

[squee365]

Undertone wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

No exploration in ME2? Then what do you call the side missions with the crashed ships or the Prothean beacons?

Or is exploration = driving aimlessly on the same generic deserted planet in the Mako for fifteen minutes to find stuff marked out on the map that you don't really need beyond the XP you get for finding them?

Exploration = The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.

So ME2 had quite of exploration once you think about it.

I don't think you and I have the same concept of exploration in mind. I don't cound loading another generic level and walking through it for few mins as exploration.

ME1's levels we're pretty generic too. Esspecially anything that involved driving the mako ->landing in a base ->shoot stuff ->leave.

[littlezack]

Undertone wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

No exploration in ME2? Then what do you call the side missions with the crashed ships or the Prothean beacons?

Or is exploration = driving aimlessly on the same generic deserted planet in the Mako for fifteen minutes to find stuff marked out on the map that you don't really need beyond the XP you get for finding them?

Exploration = The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.

So ME2 had quite of exploration once you think about it.

I don't think you and I have the same concept of exploration in mind. I don't cound loading another generic level and walking through it for few mins as exploration.

I don't count loading another generic level and driving through for a few minutes as exploration.

And heck, you think the levels in ME2 are generic? The levels in ME1 are basically all the same thing with crates moved around. Which is, oddly enough, something people complained a lot about with DA2, but hail in ME1.

[Massadonious1]

It certainly doesn't work when you're plopped down on a Sim City terrain tile and given a set number of pre-established plot points, either.

[Phaedon]

Terror_K wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

No exploration in ME2? Then what do you call the side missions with the crashed ships or the Prothean beacons?

Or is exploration = driving aimlessly on the same generic deserted planet in the Mako for fifteen minutes to find stuff marked out on the map that you don't really need beyond the XP you get for finding them?

Exploration = The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.

So ME2 had quite a lot of exploration once you think about it.

Exploration doesn't really work when you're led down a completely linear "A to B" path with no deviation though.

Tell that to me when I am switching from Lancer I to Lancer II or any other AR because it has a few more damage points.

Not when I decide which weapon in ME2 is better for my build and style of play.

[Phaedon]

Gunderic wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

I won't even go start picking apart every single argument in this thread.

I think that the topic itself is not worthy of being anything that looked down upon.

I just have this to say:
ME2 had loot and it did have an inventory.

What it didn't have was randomized loot: Guns, upgrades, research, minerals, armour parts etc.

And it also didn't have a centralized inventory:
Weapon Selection component ------> Weapon Selection Screen
Upgrades -----> Lab Terminal
??? -----> Other Upgrades
Squad Armour micromanagement -----> ???

If you'd like to refer to the odd ammo supply/credit-leaking minigame as "loot" then, sure...

Thank you. I forgot the credits.

ME2 has:

• Guns
• Upgrades
• Research
• Minerals
• Credits
• Armour parts

as loot, as opposed to:

• Guns
• Armour sets

[Undertone]

Phaedon wrote...

Undertone wrote...
People act so high and mighty. Everyone has stereotypes, you have stereotypes. So please cut the act and don't pretend you don't. 

You defend someone who claims that stereotypes are based on reality by saying that "everyone has stereotypes?"

I for one don't yell "Criminal!" every time I see an ethnic minority on the street, and I demand for no one else to do so as well.

Thinking and yelling it are two different things. Stereotypes are part of our psychology just as much as rasism is. There's concious and sub-conscious rasism and natural alignment towards that which is similar and alienation to that which is different.

Blame it on how we are wired but it's simply natural.

[littlezack]

Terror_K wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

No exploration in ME2? Then what do you call the side missions with the crashed ships or the Prothean beacons?

Or is exploration = driving aimlessly on the same generic deserted planet in the Mako for fifteen minutes to find stuff marked out on the map that you don't really need beyond the XP you get for finding them?

Exploration = The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.

So ME2 had quite a lot of exploration once you think about it.

Exploration doesn't really work when you're led down a completely linear "A to B" path with no deviation though.

ME1 did the same thing

You land on the planet. You find the stuff marked on the map. That's it. You're not going to find anything if you just drive around, really. You'r e not going to stumble on something groundbreaking. You travel from point A to point B.

ME2 just cuts out the middleman - instead of driving to the enemy base, you land or go right in.

[Someone With Mass]

Undertone wrote...

I don't think you and I have the same concept of exploration in mind. I don't cound loading another generic level and walking through it for few mins as exploration.

At least ME2 gave the player a reason to walk on the unstable crashed ship and shut down rogue VIs. To learn what happened.

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

Undertone wrote...
People act so high and mighty. Everyone has stereotypes, you have stereotypes. So please cut the act and don't pretend you don't. 

You defend someone who claims that stereotypes are based on reality by saying that "everyone has stereotypes?"

I for one don't yell "Criminal!" every time I see an ethnic minority on the street, and I demand for no one else to do so as well.

To be fair, I think you grabbed the wrong end of the point I was trying to make. I also wonder whether you read the whole post (particularly the last paragraph) or just stopped there because you were so disgusted by the comment.

The gaming industry as a whole is acting deliberately like the stereotype exists. BioWare themselves have been guilty of it lately (Dragon Age 2 is pretty much a direct result of it). If you're going to be disgusted at anybody for believing in this concept, be disgusted at the game developers of today who are making almost all their products with this in mind.

[Il Divo]

Undertone wrote...

Since a bunch of you gave me the same/similar comment I'll reply to all of you with this one.

The inventory promoted exploration (ops another thing taken out of ME1) and going out of your way or out of the main story to look and maybe find something cool hidden somewhere. Provided choice what to give your squad and what equipment to use. Had merchants, going through different items, searching for weapon treaties on the planets and so on.


The only thing bad about it was that you had to remove items you don't need one by one or you didn't have an option to immediately destroy items below a certain class without you bothering. That's it. 

Which would be a great point if the exploration element were well done. They weren't. They were as terrible as the inventory. Mass Effect 1 had no exploration. Every generic base was pointed out right from the start, and everything not identified was useless (Asari Matriarch Writings, Turian Medallions). 

The inventory as implemented did not encourage exploration. If you want exploration, play a TES game. They're designed for it. ME was not. 

In ME2 there's no such thing as exploration and no such thing as inventory. Go to Omega buy everything from the trade guy and he doesn't sell anything new. What's the point of ever returning to Omega again? Yada yada, I can keep going on about but honestly I think I'm wasting my breath.

I never returned to a single hub world in ME1 to pick up more items. I already had too many. Frankly, as implemented I picked up more items in ME1 than I ever did in KotOR. For a hybrid, that's not a good thing.

As for the Mako, same thing - with very few adjustments it would have been fixed.
 

And the Mako was also terribly implemented. 

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 juin 2011 - 01:51 .

[luzburg]

well in the end the only thing i care about is how the story plays out, and the game seems okay from the demos to comfirmed featured

[Phaedon]

Undertone wrote...
Thinking and yelling it are two different things. Stereotypes are part of our psychology just as much as rasism is. There's concious and sub-conscious rasism and natural alignment towards that which is similar and alienation to that which is different. 

Blame it on how we are wired but it's simply natural.

Stereotypes are what leads to racism.

I'll never attack anyone for having a human weakness, but I'll sure as hell demand an apology if someone claims that stereotypes are based on reality or that someone defends that person.

I bet that there will be -if there aren't already- new stereotypes for my ethnicity in 5 or 10 years. I'd like to think that they don't define me as a personality.

Modifié par Phaedon, 28 juin 2011 - 01:50 .

[Phaedon]

Terror_K wrote...
To be fair, I think you grabbed the wrong end of the point I was trying to make. I also wonder whether you read the whole post (particularly the last paragraph) or just stopped there because you were so disgusted by the comment.

The gaming industry as a whole is acting deliberately like the stereotype exists. BioWare themselves have been guilty of it lately (Dragon Age 2 is pretty much a direct result of it). If you're going to be disgusted at anybody for believing in this concept, be disgusted at the game developers of today who are making almost all their products with this in mind.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with streamlining as a concept.

What you may dislike is the way some parts of a game are streamlined. 

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

Tell that to me when I am switching from Lancer I to Lancer II or any other AR because it has a few more damage points.

Not when I decide which weapon in ME2 is better for my build and style of play.

Uh-huh. And this has what to do with planet exploration, exactly?

littlezack wrote...

ME1 did the same thing

You land on the planet. You find the stuff marked on the map. That's it. You're not going to find anything if you just drive around, really. You'r e not going to stumble on something groundbreaking. You travel from point A to point B.

ME2 just cuts out the middleman - instead of driving to the enemy base, you land or go right in.

Aside from the fact that not everything was marked on the map in ME1 (and that if the stuff that was wasn't then you'd likely complain about it more because you'd spend even more time driving around), by saying that ME2 "cuts out the middleman" you've basically said "ME2 cuts out the exploration" directly. In ME2 it's just "Arrive" as opposed to work your way there.

In either case, I was talking more about the planets themselves: ME1's open-world, sandbox areas that are large and/or have multiple routes compared to ME2's small, linear A to B paths with almost no variation.

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with streamlining as a concept.

What you may dislike is the way some parts of a game are streamlined. 

Streamling is a very good concept. The problem is that most of the time when a game developer says "streamlining" they actually mean "dumbing down" in most cases. Just because one uses the term, doesn't mean one is truly adhering to it. And, like anything, one can go too far.

Streamlining is supposed to be the process of taking what exists and making it simpler, more accessible and easier to use while retaining as much of its functionality and depth as possible. Culling and neutering systems is not streamlining; it's oversimplification and dumbing down.

The fact is, the gaming industry as a whole isn't actually trying to streamline their games and retain their depth at all: they're trying to appeal to as big an audience as possible and lower the bar to appeal to as many as possible. The entertainment industry as a whole is doing it in fact. Everything is becoming this samey brown mush these days because it's no longer about entertaining and appealing to different people with different things, but about making money and appealing to as many people as possible with the same thing.

Modifié par Terror_K, 28 juin 2011 - 02:00 .

[Rockworm503]

Undertone wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Undertone wrote...

I've argued my points countless times only to get the same responce - "too complex, redundant, glad it's taken out" or something of that regard. As I said to the previous guy - removing something doesn't equal to fixing it.

If the "feature" is bad enough, removing it is a perfectly viable option of fixing the game, especially if the feature doesn't add anything extra to the experience. 

Since a bunch of you gave me the same/similar comment I'll reply to all of you with this one.

The inventory promoted exploration (ops another thing taken out of ME1) and going out of your way or out of the main story to look and maybe find something cool hidden somewhere. Provided choice what to give your squad and what equipment to use. Had merchants, going through different items, searching for weapon treaties on the planets and so on.

The only thing bad about it was that you had to remove items you don't need one by one or you didn't have an option to immediately destroy items below a certain class without you bothering. That's it.

In ME2 there's no such thing as exploration and no such thing as inventory. Go to Omega buy everything from the trade guy and he doesn't sell anything new. What's the point of ever returning to Omega again? Yada yada, I can keep going on about but honestly I think I'm wasting my breath.

As for the Mako, same thing - with very few adjustments it would have been fixed.

Honestly it's the same crap as ME3 being the best place for new players to start. Really? You said the same thing about ME2 and I lol-ed back then but now I lol-ed even harder.

Yup it promoted exploration for about 2 minutes before you realize that exploring for the mere possiblity for maybe better stats on a gun and horrible mako gameplay and the same building on every planet over and over again.  Then it did the exact oposite.

[Someone With Mass]

Terror_K wrote...
Exploration doesn't really work when you're led down a completely linear "A to B" path with no deviation though.

Yes it does. 

Exploration is also about discovery. Take for example the abandoned mine in ME2 we know little about, but we're getting unusual readings from the planet.

So then we'll go down there, and we'll explore the site in order to find out what happened.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 28 juin 2011 - 01:59 .

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

Aside from the fact that not everything was marked on the map in ME1 (and that if the stuff that was wasn't then you'd likely complain about it more because you'd spend even more time driving around), by saying that ME2 "cuts out the middleman" you've basically said "ME2 cuts out the exploration" directly. In ME2 it's just "Arrive" as opposed to work your way there.

In either case, I was talking more about the planets themselves: ME1's open-world, sandbox areas that are large and/or have multiple routes compared to ME2's small, linear A to B paths with almost no variation.

Me1s UNCs were crap: apart from the initial frisson of excitement at seeing a fresh skybox, literally most had a group of pirates on them and some mineral patches. that's it. ME2 might have lacked the open scale, but at least you had a tenfold increase in detail and uniqueness, all it really needed was more open areas (something overlord somewhat addressed). personally i believe BW should just ditch the vehicles and have on-foot exploration after landing close to a target, allowing for some openness and exploration, whilst keeping ME2-levels of detail in the environments themselves. proper vegetation rendering etc that came with thelast engine update should help a lot in this regard (overlord had awful 2d grass).

[littlezack]

Terror_K wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Tell that to me when I am switching from Lancer I to Lancer II or any other AR because it has a few more damage points.

Not when I decide which weapon in ME2 is better for my build and style of play.

Uh-huh. And this has what to do with planet exploration, exactly?

littlezack wrote...

ME1 did the same thing

You land on the planet. You find the stuff marked on the map. That's it. You're not going to find anything if you just drive around, really. You'r e not going to stumble on something groundbreaking. You travel from point A to point B.

ME2 just cuts out the middleman - instead of driving to the enemy base, you land or go right in.

Aside from the fact that not everything was marked on the map in ME1 (and that if the stuff that was wasn't then you'd likely complain about it more because you'd spend even more time driving around), by saying that ME2 "cuts out the middleman" you've basically said "ME2 cuts out the exploration" directly. In ME2 it's just "Arrive" as opposed to work your way there.

In either case, I was talking more about the planets themselves: ME1's open-world, sandbox areas that are large and/or have multiple routes compared to ME2's small, linear A to B paths with almost no variation.

A sandbox is only as interesting as the toys inside. An empty sandbox is a very boring thing. If you drove around a lot, you might find some minerals, but really, nothing of any great interest.. Just like if you roam around a bit in the levels of ME2, you'll probably find extra minerals and upgrades off the beaten path.  More than likely, you'd just find nothng.

In either case, it's not real exploration. Each planet you could land only really has one point of interest, and it's cleary mapped. ME1 just creates the illusion of exploration, and it's a weak illusion at that..

Modifié par littlezack, 28 juin 2011 - 02:03 .

[Gunderic]

Phaedon wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

I won't even go start picking apart every single argument in this thread.

I think that the topic itself is not worthy of being anything that looked down upon.

I just have this to say:
ME2 had loot and it did have an inventory.

What it didn't have was randomized loot: Guns, upgrades, research, minerals, armour parts etc.

And it also didn't have a centralized inventory:
Weapon Selection component ------> Weapon Selection Screen
Upgrades -----> Lab Terminal
??? -----> Other Upgrades
Squad Armour micromanagement -----> ???

If you'd like to refer to the odd ammo supply/credit-leaking minigame as "loot" then, sure...

Thank you. I forgot the credits.

ME2 has:

• Guns
• Upgrades
• Research
• Minerals
• Credits
• Armour parts

as loot, as opposed to:

• Guns
• Armour sets

That's...  not even close to a full list for Mass Effect 1.

Modifié par Gunderic, 28 juin 2011 - 02:02 .