220 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

mauro2222 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

jtav wrote...

Certain individuals.. Not every individual. I'm thoroughly disenchanted with humanity in general ME and will always choose to benefit aliens over them and not sacrifice any more than required by the plot to save them.

Your premise for RPing against the interests of your own species, and, by proxy, against your own interests, is simply not a reasonable expectation as an option for Shepard.

I'm going to go ahead a guess that you've never served in the military. People that share your attitude do not typically join the military, much less prove to be a motivated enough soldier to qualify for special forces training. I am not speaking from ignorance; I have served and even the most cynical sailors I dealt with would find your stated possition repugnant.

Shepard is a special forces soldier, which means that besides raw talent and intelligence, he or she is also an extremely motivated individual. You can choose what that motivation is, within reason. You can say that Shepard is motivated by patriotic zeal for the Alliance and is 100% in support of the government. You can say that Shepard could care less about the Alliance other than it is all that stands between humanity and extinction or slavery. You can even play that Shepard just loves killing stuff.

However, your stated motivation is that of a self-loathing individual who wishes destruction of the only major force protecting his species, and therefore he wishes the destruction of himself. If you have delusions of joining an alien society, that is exactly what they are: delusions. You will always be human, no matter what, and you will never be able to truely assimilate into the culture of another species as an equal.

The only justification that you could really make for RPing Shepard this way is if you want to say that Shepard broke somewhere along the line and is now essentially mentally ill. Also, the Alliance really hasn't done anything that really justifies the kind of antipathy you've expressed, other than the fact that it is actually doing its job by advancing human interests.

What the... My own interests are not the same as the interests of my species, my own interests are not the same as the interests of my country. Alliance is a goverment, if it is removed, is removed, nobody dies, the fleets will remain intact. If shepard wants to save the galaxy because is patriotic, then he is the most stupid person.

You may desagree with your government or... your species. The will to destroy its nature. That's what is wrong.

I want to destroy humans, even though I am.
I want to destroy the women even though I am.
I want to kill homosexuals, even if I am.
I want to destroy the blacks even though I am.
I want to kill the mice even though I am.

You know better now if we simplify things ? That is wrong and that's hardly accords with a special forces soldier who claims to make the individual the center of attention.

I never implied that I wanted to kill someone.

But his response was towards someone who previously thought this. Not necessarily those who disagree with the alliance, the government or even his species.

[CaptainZaysh]

As long people are uneducated and have fear of change, yes.

Wrong.

There will always be poverty as long as what everybody wants adds up to more than there is.

There's a whole science dedicated to understanding this. It's called "economics" and you should check it out before declaring that poverty can be ended if only people would listen to you.

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

As long people are uneducated and have fear of change, yes.

Wrong.

There will always be poverty as long as what everybody wants adds up to more than there is.

There's a whole science dedicated to understanding this. It's called "economics" and you should check it out before declaring that poverty can be ended if only people would listen to you.

Emm, "There will always be poverty as long as what everybody wants adds up to more than there is" problem, education.

There's a whole science dedicated to understanding this. It's called
"economics" and you should check it out before declaring that poverty
can be ended if only people would listen to you.

I dont know if I should laugh or something xD. I am omnipotent, listen to me mortals, ´cause the truth only comes from my mouth. Please mortal, explain the relation of what I wrote with that thing.

[Hedera]

 My input on this subject:

BioWare will most likely not allow us to intentionally destroy our entire race.  We will probably be allowed to allow the Alliance to suffer heavy casualties to save the galaxy, but I have a feeling ignoring humanity will be either impossible plotwise or be a CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE.

Further, I may not agree with OP's intentions, but I respect that they have them.  This is their prerogative.  

However, due to the massive discussion flamewar this topic has become, I am inclined to think this may be a very clever troll.  If so, it was brilliantly orchestrated.

If not, I will put forth this opinion:  OP may be confusing their own motivations and feelings about humanity with what is offered about Shepard, thus the disconnect between a former N7 marine and what amounts to a massive cynic, who would not have made it as far as Humanity's first Spectre, and would more logically have joined some splinter group of like-minded individuals.  Establishment-hating cynics make poor soldiers.

[atheelogos]

jtav wrote...

You're assuming I think humanity in ME is worth saving. I'll be actively seeking out the "Earth gets destroyed" ending.

If we lose then the Reapers win. They don't want to kill us off. They want to make us into Reapers.

[SandTrout]

mauro2222 wrote...

Emm, "There will always be poverty as long as what everybody wants adds up to more than there is" problem, education.

There's a whole science dedicated to understanding this. It's called
"economics" and you should check it out before declaring that poverty
can be ended if only people would listen to you.

I dont know if I should laugh or something xD. I am omnipotent, listen to me mortals, ´cause the truth only comes from my mouth. Please mortal, explain the relation of what I wrote with that thing.

What you wrote stated that there is a way for poverty to be eradicated even though the entire concept of poverty is a state which is held relative to others within your society.

In modern western civilization, 'poverty' includes people whos living conditions are better than the middle class 100 years ago, let alone 1000 years ago. They are still considered as living in poverty because their living standards are significantly less than the generally accepted standard for that society.

Therefor, the only way to get rid of poverty is to make sure that everyone has the same stuff as everyone else. The practice of this concept is called 'Communism'. When it has been tried, communism has, at best, resulted economic stagnation, and, at worst, the most corrupt and brutal regimes in existence and economic collapse.

All economies that to not attempt enforced economic equality (and some that do) result in non-equal distribution of wealth, with many people not having everything that they want. This is historically the healthiest form of economy, with even those that fall bellow the poverty line typically having better living conditions than communist based economies of similar circumstance.

What you are expressing, by claiming that poverty is not eliminated because of a fear of change and lack of education, has been proven largely invalid by history, especially considering the most prosperous and educated nations in history typically still had a small portion of their population which could be considered as living in poverty at the time.

Note that poverty is not good thing in and of itself, but rather, the act of attempting to eliminate poverty across the board typically is more destructive than allowing a certain ammount of poverty to persist.

[PrinceLionheart]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

With what?

A new government.

To paraphrase a certain Templar from Dragon Age "Only a fool would fight over who owns a hut while it burns to the ground." Attempting to restructure, or "get revenge" on an entire army is pretty illogical when you should be more concerned about the impending Reaper Threat.

So really, my response to this thread is "Get the #&$@ over it.."

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 29 juin 2011 - 01:59 .

[vader da slayer]

to anyone wanting to change out an entire governmental system because of corruption I have a news flash for you. the new government you set up will be just as corrupt within a few years. corruption happens as long as the ability to make money off of something and lawyers exists. the object is to try a keep corruption down as much as possible, making the objective complete irradication of it is unobtainable.

[HTTP 404]

vader da slayer wrote...

to anyone wanting to change out an entire governmental system because of corruption I have a news flash for you. the new government you set up will be just as corrupt within a few years. corruption happens as long as the ability to make money off of something and lawyers exists. the object is to try a keep corruption down as much as possible, making the objective complete irradication of it is unobtainable.

Im glad someone said this, I was about to say something to this effect.  If OP wants the alliance gone, will the replacing military entity really be any different?

[TheMarshal]

cgrimm54 wrote...

If not, I will put forth this opinion:  OP may be confusing their own motivations and feelings about humanity with what is offered about Shepard, thus the disconnect between a former N7 marine and what amounts to a massive cynic, who would not have made it as far as Humanity's first Spectre, and would more logically have joined some splinter group of like-minded individuals.  Establishment-hating cynics make poor soldiers.

I think you're mistaking two things.  The first is that a Shepard who has these feelings of disdain for the Alliance has always had these feelings.  And the second is that the Alliance is wholly unresponsible for Shepard having these feelings.

The Alliance put forth Shepard as a Spectre candidate for one reason and one reason only: Because s/he is a well-known badass, who either:

• Became famous because they were the only survivor of a Thresher Maw attack that killed 50 other soldiers.
• Became famous when they single-handedly fought off a batarian force.
• Became famous for their ruthless ability to get the job done.

Shepard is a person of unsurpassed skill, and the Alliance wanted to ride his/her coattails as long as they could.  Which, as it turns out, only lasted until s/he started embarrassing them.  So much for putting all of their faith and support in the first human Spectre.  Until, of course, it turned out that s/he was right, and there WAS in fact a nigh-unstoppable invasion of the Citadel planned.  Then they throw his/her face on the cover of every recruitment poster available.  This amazing person represents humanity!  Join now!!

Well, that of course only lasted until Shepard was killed in action.  Then it was decided that s/he wasn't quite marketable enough as-is, so they kept the name (and of course the recognition) and replaced his/her visage with something that would drive up numbers again.

And so on and so forth.  Respect has to be earned, and it's not a one-way street.  Shepard has gotten the job done time and time again.  So far all the Alliance has proven is that they're willing to sell out their own to advance their own interests.

[XDMMX]

Modifié par XDMMX, 29 juin 2011 - 03:09 .

[Zubie]

TheMarshal wrote...

The first is that a Shepard who has these feelings of disdain for the Alliance has always had these feelings.

So why would this Shepard enlist with the Alliance in the first place then

[XDMMX]

jtav wrote...

You're assuming I think humanity in ME is worth saving. I'll be actively seeking out the "Earth gets destroyed" ending.

Talk like that, is what makes Cerberus start to sound like a good idea!

[TheMarshal]

easygame88 wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

The first is that a Shepard who has these feelings of disdain for the Alliance has always had these feelings.

So why would this Shepard enlist with the Alliance in the first place then

You're misreading the quote.  The idea that Shepard has always had these feelings of disdain for the Alliance is something that I suggested was a mistake.  I assumed that any Shepard who joined the Alliance at least had a passing interest in being Alliance at one point or another, and that the bad blood s/he feels presently is a direct result of the actions of the Alliance against Shepard.

[Raiil]

easygame88 wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

The first is that a Shepard who has these feelings of disdain for the Alliance has always had these feelings.

So why would this Shepard enlist with the Alliance in the first place then

Spacer Shep is just joining the family business
Colonist Shep was rescued by them
Earth Born Shep was looking to escape a s--t situation and the military has, historically and in fiction, been a good out 

And given the political machinations Shepard is pushed through- regardless of whether you think they're for the better or not- it's quite easy to play as a severely disillusioned Shepard. My own canon Shep was very gung-ho in the first game, not so pro-Alliance by about halfway through the second game. While I'm not going to go as far as catapaulting them to their death with some tinned evil laughter, I'm also actively not going to do anything that puts them back on top. 


Depending on your play style, you may think that a different race (probably the asari or the salarians) are a better bet for galactic stability in the long run. Maybe what the Alliance needs to be the big dog is a price you're not willing to pay. Maybe you've got tunnel vision and the only think you're focused on is keeping your ass- and the collective backsides of your crew- in one piece. Maybe you're just off your rocker. But there are reasons to not be pro-Alliance, and they're no more or less legit than any for-humanity viewpoint.

[sevach]

Given the chance, i'll say some nasty things about the Alliance on the trial.
But not much else.

[SandTrout]

TheMarshal wrote...

-snip-

Your premise is flawed because a Shepard that you described would not have joined the military of a government he despised, much less be motivated enough to join the special forces branch.

Also, what the OP is talking about goes beyond even a dislike for the government structure of the Alliance. He has implied that he does not think that humanity as a species is worth saving. As a member of that species, he is in effect condemning himself as well. This shows self-loathing tendencies that would rule out the idea of joining the military even more certainly than a simple disdain for the government that runs it.

[SandTrout]

Depending on your play style, you may think that a different race (probably the asari or the salarians) are a better bet for galactic stability in the long run. Maybe what the Alliance needs to be the big dog is a price you're not willing to pay. Maybe you've got tunnel vision and the only think you're focused on is keeping your ass- and the collective backsides of your crew- in one piece. Maybe you're just off your rocker. But there are reasons to not be pro-Alliance, and they're no more or less legit than any for-humanity viewpoint.

Yes, there are reasons to not necessarily support the Alliance, but that is not the topic of discussion. The OP expressed a malicious intent to actively work towards the destruction of its fleets and facilities, as well as humanity in general. He has not expressed an intent to aid any species in particular, only the destruction of the Systems Alliance.

This is a key distinction in the discussion, and why it would make no sense within the context of the game unless Shepard has gone insane.

[Wolfborn Son]

mauro2222 wrote...

Emm, "There will always be poverty as long as what everybody wants adds up to more than there is" problem, education.

OOC: All the education in the world doesn't stop an ***hole from being an ***hole, and so-long as we have them in this world we will always have poverty, injustice, and war.  Exploitation happens because people are immoral, not poorly informed.   Do you think the Bernie Madoffs of the world will really change their tune the moment they hear about the wonders of socailism?

IC: The Alliance hasn't done anything to deal with poverty.  Nor has any other system.

[TheMarshal]

SandTrout wrote...

Your premise is flawed because a Shepard that you described would not have joined the military of a government he despised, much less be motivated enough to join the special forces branch.

Also, what the OP is talking about goes beyond even a dislike for the government structure of the Alliance. He has implied that he does not think that humanity as a species is worth saving. As a member of that species, he is in effect condemning himself as well. This shows self-loathing tendencies that would rule out the idea of joining the military even more certainly than a simple disdain for the government that runs it.

Again, please read the whole quote.

I think you're mistaking two things.  The first is that a Shepard who has these feelings of disdain for the Alliance has always had these feelings.  And the second is that the Alliance is wholly unresponsible for Shepard having these feelings.

Those two things that I listed are mistakes in the reasoning of the person that I was talking to earlier had.  They are false, as I went on to discuss.

As for the OP's motivations, you are again falsely assuming that these feelings of disdain for one's own government/people have always been present.  And I again suggest that it is not the case at all.  We've seen very little in the way of selfless acts from either the Alliance or humanity in general.  Save for a scant few instances, all we've seen in both games is greed, torture, revenge, deceit, xenophobia and the like.  And you're telling me that a people who waste their abilities on such horrible things are worth pledging your undying loyalty to?

[Zubie]

TheMarshal wrote...

You're misreading the quote.  The idea that Shepard has always had these feelings of disdain for the Alliance is something that I suggested was a mistake.  I assumed that any Shepard who joined the Alliance at least had a passing interest in being Alliance at one point or another, and that the bad blood s/he feels presently is a direct result of the actions of the Alliance against Shepard.

I suppose my Shepard is simply more understanding of the actions of the Alliance and why he doesn't take it so personally.

[Zubie]

TheMarshal wrote...

Save for a scant few instances, all we've seen in both games is greed, torture, revenge, deceit, xenophobia and the like.  And you're telling me that a people who waste their abilities on such horrible things are worth pledging your undying loyalty to?

Oh, here I thought we were talking about the Alliance, not Cerberus.

[AngelicMachinery]

jtav wrote...

You're assuming I think humanity in ME is worth saving. I'll be actively seeking out the "Earth gets destroyed" ending.

Are you like...  fourteen?

[jtav]

Let me rephrase: why should I lift a finger for people who have repeatedly used me to do their dirty work and then disown me as soon as it's expedient to do so?

As for humanity: no I don't think they're worth saving because of the way the story is written. It feels like everyone but Shepard and co. is a jerk, a fool, or helpless. I the player don't get a sense that these characters are worth fighting for. We need more Kate Bowmans and fewer Delans.

[jlb524]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

jtav wrote...

You're assuming I think humanity in ME is worth saving. I'll be actively seeking out the "Earth gets destroyed" ending.

Are you like...  fourteen?

What?

I think it could be an interesting subversion.