665 réponses à ce sujet

[Zebron is reaL]

Mr.House wrote...

octoberfire wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Can there ever be a mature, civil discussion on this subject? I would like for there to be one.

That went out the window when people started freaking out about optional content.

Nah some how the optional content forces people to do it.

Optional content is mandatory.

[Bocks]

Estelindis wrote...

Bocks, I didn't mention Garrus at all in the post you quoted.  I spoke solely about a possible new character for ME3, who would be designed as a same-same love interest from the beginning.  In terms of just that character, why not have them try to initiate a romance?  It's no more intrusive than the various LIs of opposite sex flirting with a Shepard that the player is roleplaying as not interested in the opposite sex.

If we must talk about Garrus, though, I think he's actually the least likely to start flirting with a Shepard of either gender.  Having played female Shepard, I found his romance entirely avoidable (which was good, as I wanted to avoid it and remain faithful to Kaidan).  If I wanted to take things further, it was entirely my choice to try and flirt with him.  I expect that would hold true of any possible future romance between Garrus and male Shepard: it would be invisible to those not interested in it.  Now, some other previously-established characters might take it upon themselves to flirt.  Would you object to it as strongly as you would in the case of Garrus?

I'm fine with a new character coming onto Shepard because at that point they're still characters that aren't clear to us.

As for the other characters, unless they have a past of bisexuality that can clearly be evidenced, then yes. Otherwise, it has to be Shepard who asks them since we have no idea who is actually bi on the ship.

[Estelindis]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Here's a legitimate post from me:

In all seriousness though, (this post is in response to the highly defensive s/s supporters), why do you act like lesbians and homosexuals have never been included in a game before?

I think that's a bit of a strawman argument.  It's not like people who ask for heterosexual romances in Bioware games are claiming that they've never been included in a game before; they enjoyed the existing ones and thus want more in future games.  Why wouldn't the same be true of those looking for same-sex romances?

Bocks wrote...

I'm fine with a new character coming onto Shepard because at that point they're still characters that aren't clear to us.

As for the other characters, unless they have a past of bisexuality that can clearly be evidenced, then yes. Otherwise, it has to be Shepard who asks them since we have no idea who is actually bi on the ship.

Thank you for clarifying that.

However, in terms of ME1/2 LIs, while there might not be evidence for their bisexuality, one could also say that there's no evidence against it.  Against their homosexuality, there certainly is - but not bisexuality, surely?  Perhaps their bisexuality could come forward as part of new character development.  Alternatively, it could be treated variably depending on whether or not Shepard already has a LI from ME1 or 2.  If Shep was celibate in both games, then an existing character who wasn't previously available for same-sex romance could bring up the possibility.  On the other hand, if Shepard has already had romance with the opposite sex (even if the LI subsequently died, e.g. at Virmire or during the suicide mission), it would be up to him to initiate things.

Modifié par Estelindis, 28 juin 2011 - 02:56 .

[VirtualStranger]

Bocks wrote...

The problem is that some people DONT WANT to see gay content in any way, shape or form. They don't want Garrus to come onto them, because by now most people who play ManShep see Garrus as Shepard's bro. You can't make them unhappy just to please a part of the fanbase that wants to see the gay content. If it's a new character and his personality allows him to be brave enough to come onto Shepard, then that's absolutely FINE. However, for long-term characters like Garrus, some people just don't want to see gay content related to him in any way shape or form. hence, it should be Shepard to initiate the relationship.

The point comes down to this: If there's an option for Shepard to be gay, that's fine by me. But I do NOT want to see gay content in my playthrough of ME3 at all. I do NOT want to see Garrus coming onto me. I'd be fine with James or someone new doing it, but not somebody that has been on the team already. Otherwise, Shepard would have to initiate the romance.

The main problem is that opponents of s/s romances for existing characters,and the rest of the game in general, is the obvious double standards.

You say that old characters becoming bisexual LI will somehow irrevocably change into something they weren't before, yet you seem to ignore that real people do this all the time.

Tell me, what's the difference between someone becoming a bi LI, and automatically cooling heat sinks becoming disposable heatsinks that need to be swapped out?

You claim to not want to ever be forced to see gay content if you dont want to, but you fail to see how it is for gay players to be forced to see straight content that they don't want to. (which they already are, all the time, everywhere they go) Why you don't wan't to see it, I have no Idea. You have a "I'm fine with gay people in the game, but I don't want to see it" attitude, which is very insulting.

You are a victim of heterosexual privilidge and you don't realize it. You have been conditioned by society to only think of bigotry and discrimination in the terms of blatant rudeness, when most of the time it is much more subtle than that. "Priviledge" refers to the way society confers power from one group to another. You have lived with that priviledge all throughout your life, so you find it impossible to put yourself in the position of those who haven't.

To fix that, I'd start by reading this: http://www.cs.earlha...htprivilege.htm

EDIT: Double Post

Modifié par VirtualStranger, 28 juin 2011 - 02:56 .

[keekee53]

Yeah, so I brought this up before and it was shut down. I am going to do it again. Add a freaking preference option in the game so people can choose what they wish to see. If someone does not want to be subject to same sex romance they do not have to and vice versa. It seems like a simple solution that will make everyone happy. The voice actors are going to record both if they were bisexual anyways so no money lost.

[Rinji the Bearded]

keekee53 wrote...

Yeah, so I brought this up before and it was shut down. I am going to do it again. Add a freaking preference option in the game so people can choose what they wish to see. If someone does not want to be subject to same sex romance they do not have to and vice versa. It seems like a simple solution that will make everyone happy. The voice actors are going to record both if they were bisexual anyways so no money lost.

Except it's a giant insult to the writers.

[shepskisaac]

IsaacShep wrote...

Bocks wrote...
The character of Garrus or Kaidan or Jacob or whoever has already been pretty much solidified at this point in the Mass Effect series. Suddenly having them come onto you would be strange. Why wouldn't they have expressed these feelings beforehand?

With Kaidan it's very simple why he didn't tell anything to Shepard. He thinks Shepoard is straight. It's already part of the story. He admits to FemShep that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara) and he also makes it clear he wouldn't bother flirting/pursuing FemShep in the first place had he knew that. He assumes the same thing about ManShep since they're the same character and it's confirmed when he says to Shepard that he thinks Shep would've liked Rahna. With the obvious gender difference between ManShep and FemShep, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since a straight woman likes men. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, thus Kaidan won't pursue him. The explanation is already there in the very first game of the franchise - ME1.

Not only it's pure logic, but goes along with Kaidan's character. He's a person who doesn't like to force himself on anybody. He repeats several times during flirting with FemShep that if FemShep thinks he's out of line, she should just say one word and he will stop. If FemShep turns him down, he apologizes and says he won't repeat (flirting) again/he misread her intentions etc and he never goes back to flirting, even though we obviously know he still likes FemShep (it's not like people erase their crush on someone immediately after being turned down). So since he thinks ManShep is straight, it would not only be logical he wouldn't force himself onto him but also go very well with Kaidan's character, personality, culture and the way he approaches people.

It's so tacky to quote myself but I don't want Bocks to miss is so

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[Siansonea]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Can there ever be a mature, civil discussion on this subject? I would like for there to be one.

At the risk of casting pearls before swine, why don't you enlighten the rest of us with your wisdom on the subject, in a mature, civil way, and lead by example? I may have missed previous attempts at this, I have not read this thread in its entirety, but by all means repost any nuggets of wisdom you've put forward that have been lost in the kerfuffle so far.

Here's a legitimate post from me:

In all seriousness though, (this post is in response to the highly defensive s/s supporters), why do you act like lesbians and homosexuals have never been included in a game before?

Let me say this as well, I don't oppose s/s romance in general, I oppose making current LIs (either all, some, or even one) bi.

Is anyone acting as though lesbians and homosexual have never been included in a game before? I haven't gotten that impression, but again, I haven't been taking the thread seriously for the most part (it's really, really, hard to, to be honest). And you know what? I think it's perfectly fine to oppose making current LIs bisexual. Some of my friends are against it. I'm even against it in some cases (Ashley, Jack) and fully support it in other cases (Kaidan, Miranda). I think an all-bisexual squad is not an ideal solution, but I also support other people's right to feel differently, to respectfully disagree with me. I personally dislike all non-asari alien romances. I would never pursue romance with Tali, Garrus or Thane. It just seems completely beyond the pale. But the fact that those options exist takes nothing away from my gaming experience, in fact, I'd say their existence adds MORE meaning to my choices. My selecting another choice, I affirm that character's identity further, and differentiate him or her from my other characters. And the fact that I select Ashley over Tali, Miranda, Liara, AND Jack has a lot more weight than if I select Ashley over Liara. Ashley is chosen because she's Ashley, not because she's the human girl. Does that make sense? The same would be true of a s/s option. Your Shepard's decision to pursue a straight romance is enhanced by his ability to NOT select a s/s romance. Right now he's straight because he hasn't had a choice. Once he has a choice, he can REALLY be straight.

[Rinji the Bearded]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Well, whenever someone brings up a counter argument, the s/s supporters come down hard on them.

I think there's a word for that.

You're pretty much asking for it, bro.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 28 juin 2011 - 03:02 .

[Sunnie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

 It seems that some people are always saying "gays have been left out since ME1" and sometimes put it in a way that gays always are left out, yet I could name some games that have homosexuality in it.

But gay men HAVE been left out. They have had no romance options, zero, zip, nada. And what do other games outside of the ME series have to do with the statement, I would assume "since ME1" would be referring to the ME series only.

[keekee53]

RinjiRenee wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Yeah, so I brought this up before and it was shut down. I am going to do it again. Add a freaking preference option in the game so people can choose what they wish to see. If someone does not want to be subject to same sex romance they do not have to and vice versa. It seems like a simple solution that will make everyone happy. The voice actors are going to record both if they were bisexual anyways so no money lost.

Except it's a giant insult to the writers.

It is an insult to me to present the character one way and then change it later.

[keekee53]

mrsph wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Yeah, so I brought this up before and it was shut down. I am going to do it again. Add a freaking preference option in the game so people can choose what they wish to see. If someone does not want to be subject to same sex romance they do not have to and vice versa. It seems like a simple solution that will make everyone happy. The voice actors are going to record both if they were bisexual anyways so no money lost.

This is already in the game.

It's called not doing it.

*cough cough* Anders...from my understanding he hit on you regardless.

[Rinji the Bearded]

keekee53 wrote...

It is an insult to me to present the character one way and then change it later.

They're not your characters, dude.

[shepskisaac]

George Lucas insulted me when he revealed Vader is Luke's father.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 juin 2011 - 03:05 .

[Eternal Dust]

keekee53 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Yeah, so I brought this up before and it was shut down. I am going to do it again. Add a freaking preference option in the game so people can choose what they wish to see. If someone does not want to be subject to same sex romance they do not have to and vice versa. It seems like a simple solution that will make everyone happy. The voice actors are going to record both if they were bisexual anyways so no money lost.

This is already in the game.

It's called not doing it.

*cough cough* Anders...from my understanding he hit on you regardless.

No. He hit on people too daft to realize that the <3 meant INITIATING RELATIONSHIP. I guess it must be in big gay letters next time.

[Siansonea]

keekee53 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Yeah, so I brought this up before and it was shut down. I am going to do it again. Add a freaking preference option in the game so people can choose what they wish to see. If someone does not want to be subject to same sex romance they do not have to and vice versa. It seems like a simple solution that will make everyone happy. The voice actors are going to record both if they were bisexual anyways so no money lost.

Except it's a giant insult to the writers.

It is an insult to me to present the character one way and then change it later.

Well, if by making thousands of other players happy, BioWare has to "insult" you in the process, I'd say it's a small price to pay. I was "insulted" when Tali and Garrus were made romanceable in ME2. After all, none of MY Shepards were going to bump uglies with dextro-chiral ALIENS. EWWWWWW! But I can get glad in the same pants I get mad in when I have to, and that's what I did. When those options arose, I picked the "how about no" options. Easy breezy. And hey, hordes of other players got something they really, really wanted. So yay Tali and Garrus romances, yay other happy players.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 28 juin 2011 - 03:08 .

[keekee53]

RinjiRenee wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

It is an insult to me to present the character one way and then change it later.

They're not your characters, dude.

Ahh we can go back and forth on this, but I will let your childish picture speak for itself.

[Destroy Raiden_]

You can't make both sides happy

end game results LI were portrayed as hetro but s/s supporters want to find any excuse even going so far as to say BW owes them for not allowing them to romance so and so for 1 - 3 games or they were holding it back for same sexed shep to justify those previously portrayed hetro to become s/s options for 3.

Those apposed to past LI changing to s/s options want what the game established through character development or to hold true these characters end game slept with opposite sexed shep and stopped speaking to same sexed shep.

The only happy option the anti s/s crowd will be happy with is brand new characters are s/s options for 3. And all past LI to remain hetro.

While the only thing s/s supporters will be happy with is everybody from the past two games plus the new characters for 3 be s/s options



As another poster put it

[quote]

the "gay until proven straight" argument allows for no one to be heterosexual, not even someone who lives their entire life having never had sex with a person of the same gender, because they must have simply repressed a bisexuality that is evident by the fact that it was never refuted, which cannot be done.
[quote/]

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 28 juin 2011 - 03:12 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

keekee53 wrote...

Ahh we can go back and forth on this, but I will let your childish picture speak for itself.

It does, that's the thing.