665 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinji the Bearded]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

I didn't play ME1 first. I played ME2 first.

1) Yes, I had an issue with Liara.

2) I DEFINITELY had an issue with Cerberus.

3) I dont remember that about Tali.

4) I don't get what you mean about Legion and the heretics.

So the writers do things you don't necessarily agree with?  Stunning.

[Medhia Nox]

3) Tali's loyalty quest is about how she's sending back functioning "parts" of Geth. When we're told in ME 1 that this is next to impossible because the Geth self-destruct.

4) And the Geth are nothing more than "orks in metal bodies" in ME 1. They've got no noticeable agenda other than "serve Reapers, destroy organics".

Then suddenly - the Geth are split into two factions, one Heretic, the other "the good guys you can now empathize with". So - they are doing exactly what you don't want to happen to Kaidan. They're going against how they were originally presented.

====

Again, I have no agenda... I don't care if Kaidan is gay, straight, or a transvestite.

You seem far more reasonable than some of the people that agree with you - and I was wondering how you felt about these parts of the story that seem completely altered much as you would see Kaidan altered were he made "bisexual".

[goofyomnivore]

Every romance should be initiated by the player character. No matter sexual preference. If BioWare gets down the first part of the romance(no ninjamancing or being a complete ass to that character). I don't think this will be an issue at all.

I've always wondered what would happen, if they wrote a strictly gay character. Such as a stunning female lead, whom only prefers women. I can't imagine all the damaged male egos demanding blood on these forums for why she is immune to their "woo-ing".

[Siansonea]

Yeah, if this was a discussion about general World Of Suck moments in the ME2 game, I'd have a field day. I'm working for...CERBERUS?! The people who freakin' KILLED Admiral Kahoku?!!! The people who freakin' TORTURED Corporal Toombs?!!!! And I can't even say NO???!!!!! GAH!!!!!!!!

So yeah, the "hey Garrus, wanna reach some of my flexibility?" come-on was easy for me to overlook. Kind of small potatoes by comparison. I tend to think ManShep making eyes at a dude would be similarly easy to overlook for folks that ain't into that. It's certainly better than WORKING FOR CERBERUS OMG ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME I CAN'T EVEN...

[Whatever42]

Listen, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to let you start romances that you missed in ME1 and ME2 so that likely means no "retconning" or discovering buried sexualities or whatever you want to call it. It seems far more likely that they will introduce a new romance, simply because its easier to do. This is a debate over hypotheticals.

These kind of debates surprise me really. I figure people would be more interested in figuring out how to convince Bioware not to make their romances suck so much by having a dozen people trying to get into your pants.

[mesmerizedish]

Why are people upset about Liara taking a level in badass? That was the best example of character development Mass Effect presented me with. Heaven forbid BioWare should make a character bearable.

[Whatever42]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, if this was a discussion about general World Of Suck moments in the ME2 game, I'd have a field day. I'm working for...CERBERUS?! The people who freakin' KILLED Admiral Kahoku?!!! The people who freakin' TORTURED Corporal Toombs?!!!! And I can't even say NO???!!!!! GAH!!!!!!!!

So yeah, the "hey Garrus, wanna reach some of my flexibility?" come-on was easy for me to overlook. Kind of small potatoes by comparison. I tend to think ManShep making eyes at a dude would be similarly easy to overlook for folks that ain't into that. It's certainly better than WORKING FOR CERBERUS OMG ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME I CAN'T EVEN...

Hey, you got to screw with Cerberus even while working for them, which had to be great fun. I know my Renegade adored hanging up on the Council in ME1.

[Medhia Nox]

@ishmaeltheforsaken - I don't have a problem with it. I'm just using it as an example of extreme character change. (I do hate Liara, but I despite all asari except Samara - it has nothing to do with the topic at hand)

@strive: I agree, people would have a coronary if a character they liked totally refused them on the ground of being written "solely gay".

@Whatever: I absolutely agree with this. The "romances" in these games need to make a huge literary leap before I even care about which gay character's dialogue tree I want to "get into".

As a note - I think too many peopel are projecting their aggrivation onto The Big Bad Wolf. He seems like a totally reasonable person trying to express his opinions. There are far worse offenders who "seem" actually homophobic. Give the poor guy some room to speak his mind.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 juin 2011 - 03:36 .

[AngelicMachinery]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Why are people upset about Liara taking a level in badass? That was the best example of character development Mass Effect presented me with. Heaven forbid BioWare should make a character bearable.

People lost their cute little blue cuddle bunny(It's okay Tali took her place)...  I prefer Liara's change myself she's hardened a bit,  She's seen the biggest crisis in 50,000 years, potentially was involved in the death of her own lover, someone she loved dies,  she lost the Drell.  There is no way someone would come out of this full of school girl charm and love hearts.

[Estelindis]

IsaacShep wrote...

George Lucas insulted me when he revealed Vader is Luke's father.

Well, I don't know about that, but changing who Leia ends up with (Han) vs. who she was originally intended to end up with (Luke) was definitely a very successful and appropriate retcon!  It's not always a bad word; it can be done well.

Modifié par Estelindis, 28 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[shepskisaac]

strive wrote...

Every romance should be initiated by the player character. No matter sexual preference. If BioWare gets down the first part of the romance(no ninjamancing or being a complete ass to that character). I don't think this will be an issue at all.

I've always wondered what would happen, if they wrote a strictly gay character. Such as a stunning female lead, whom only prefers women. I can't imagine all the damaged male egos demanding blood on these forums for why she is immune to their "woo-ing".

They've already did that actually. Juhani in KOTOR was only for female romance. Then again, it was a tiny romance anyway and romances in KOTOR weren't anywhere as big as in ME in general so no complaining. No to mention the fact it was a lesbian romance and let's be honest, that's not what straight guys always complain about.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 juin 2011 - 03:39 .

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

I admit, the Tali and Garrus romance was fan service. But I played ME2 first and did not know they weren't romanceable in ME1, until I played it.

But since that's in the game, there's nothing to say about that, is there?

And making characters less believable doesn't just apply to their sexuality.

But how, exactly, does changing Kaidan's sexuality less "believable" than changing Tali and Garrus' attraction to Shepard? Why exactly would you view Kaidan's attraction to manShep a "retcon," even though to actually "retcon" anything, it would have to contradict something? How would bisexuality make Kaidan less "believable" as a character in a work of fiction?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

You can't make everyone happy.

Side A: Wants all LIs to be available regardless of PC gender.
Side B: Wants LIs to have their own orientation that doesn't necessarily spin 'due PC'.
Side C: Against s/s altogether.
Side D: Thinks romances should have at least one LI for all preferences, and they shouldn't 'cross-class'.
Side E: Ok with s/s so long as such LIs are not up front about liking the PC's.
Side F: Ok with s/s so long as the LI gives absolutely no hint of homosexuality unless the PC specifically takes the initiative to let them out of the cupboard.
Side G: Ok with any sort of romance (or none) so long as it's in character and expressed according to the character's personality (be that open or reserved), and remains so.

I'd list myself in B and G. And since those choices will conflict with others shown, and many are mutually exclusive, chances are someone won't be happy no matter what Bioware does.

Ever.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 28 juin 2011 - 03:38 .

[jlb524]

IsaacShep wrote...

They've already did that actually. Juhani in KOTR was only for female romance. Then again, it was a tiny romance anyway and romances in KOTR weren't anywhere as big as in ME in general so no complaining. No to mention the fact it was a lesbian romance and let's be honest, that's not what straight guys always complain about.

If Bastila was a lesbian, I'm sure a few straight guys would have complained.

AngelicMachinery wrote...
There is no way someone would come out of this full of school girl charm and love hearts.

Modifié par jlb524, 28 juin 2011 - 03:39 .

[jt_boi]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Why are people upset about Liara taking a level in badass? That was the best example of character development Mass Effect presented me with. Heaven forbid BioWare should make a character bearable.

People lost their cute little blue cuddle bunny(It's okay Tali took her place)...  I prefer Liara's change myself she's hardened a bit,  She's seen the biggest crisis in 50,000 years, potentially was involved in the death of her own lover, someone she loved dies,  she lost the Drell.  There is no way someone would come out of this full of school girl charm and love hearts.

I agree.  I really enjoyed Liara's character arc thus far, and I think that when you consider all that she's been through it is a believable transformation.  I especially like how she became (is becoming?) a touch more like her mother.  

[spirosz]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Why are people upset about Liara taking a level in badass? That was the best example of character development Mass Effect presented me with. Heaven forbid BioWare should make a character bearable.

People lost their cute little blue cuddle bunny(It's okay Tali took her place)...  I prefer Liara's change myself she's hardened a bit,  She's seen the biggest crisis in 50,000 years, potentially was involved in the death of her own lover, someone she loved dies,  she lost the Drell.  There is no way someone would come out of this full of school girl charm and love hearts.

Exactly how I felt, especially for what she was involved in, work wise. 

[Siansonea]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, if this was a discussion about general World Of Suck moments in the ME2 game, I'd have a field day. I'm working for...CERBERUS?! The people who freakin' KILLED Admiral Kahoku?!!! The people who freakin' TORTURED Corporal Toombs?!!!! And I can't even say NO???!!!!! GAH!!!!!!!!

So yeah, the "hey Garrus, wanna reach some of my flexibility?" come-on was easy for me to overlook. Kind of small potatoes by comparison. I tend to think ManShep making eyes at a dude would be similarly easy to overlook for folks that ain't into that. It's certainly better than WORKING FOR CERBERUS OMG ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME I CAN'T EVEN...

Hey, you got to screw with Cerberus even while working for them, which had to be great fun. I know my Renegade adored hanging up on the Council in ME1.

The thing is though, for a Paragon Shepard to just jump on the Cerberus train without exhausting every other option FIRST—that I found even harder to believe than the completely artificial died-and-came-back-to-life-to-reset-the-skill-trees-and-retcon-thermal-clips stupidity. I mean REALLY FOR REALZ. Cerberus. My choirboy Vanguard is just going to go "if what you say is true, I'd consider helping you" without first hitting brick walls with the Council, the Alliance, and almost everyone else he could talk to? I don't think so. Not my Paragon. Not unless Miranda was lying about that control chip.

[BurtonSD]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

This is the song that never ends
It goes on and on, my friends
Some people starting singing it not knowing what it was
And they'll just keep on singing it forever just because
This is the song that never ends
It goes on and on, my friends...

So perfect for this topic. It really is.

[jbblue05]

mrsph wrote...

Mostly because Liara's character development is unrealistic, not to mention it was in a crappy comic no one read.

This

Benezia dies and Liara takes it in stride.

Shepard dies and Liara won't accept Shepard is dead.

Naive socially awkward scientist is hell-bent on revenge against the SB and won't stop until she rescues Feron

Not to mention you can be rude to Liara and a total douche to her and she still loves you

[TexasToast712]

 This is gonna go down 2 ways for Bioware.

1. They man up and announce that only new characters are being established as Bi and the flamewars and hate threads die down.

or 

2. They announce they are turning everyone Bi DAII style and the forum erupts into flames and ME3 blows up in their faces. 

Which is why Iam going to kick back and do this.

[Rinji the Bearded]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 This is gonna go down 2 ways for Bioware.

1. They man up and announce that only new characters are being established as Bi and the flamewars and hate threads die down.

or 

2. They announce they are turning everyone Bi DAII style and the forum erupts into flames and ME3 blows up in their faces. 

Which is why Iam going to kick back and do this.

I'm pretty sure ME3 won't blow up in their faces because a bunch of sphinctersorrowful forum visitors.

Romances are a small part of the game, brah.