665 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

TexasToast712 wrote...
I never stated I hated DAII. I loved it. Iam just stating the one of the many reasons why most people consider it a major flop

Which you know is a duper dumb reason with all the technical, design & gameplay problems DA2 had. So why should you, me, BW and everyone else submit to threats and complaints from people who dislike games for dumb reasons?

[bleetman]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

You may argue that people may reveal that they like others of the same sex in real life. This is not real life, so not all of the rules apply.

I wouldn't presume to say which rules do or do not apply on behalf of the folk who actually created the characters and backsetting to begin with, myself.

Modifié par bleetman, 28 juin 2011 - 04:02 .

[Medhia Nox]

@TexasToast: I happen to be a very reasonable homosexual. What would you like to converse about?

[Sherbet Lemon]

lazuli wrote...

Yeah.  Wasn't Gaider fairly widely praised for slamming the homophobic backlash on the forums?  I don't suppose we have any numbers or anything, but I will certainly agree that the bisexual love interests were not what was wrong with DA2.

Yeah.  A facebook friend who I'm fairly certain doesn't play Dragon Age linked to a website praising Gaider's responses in that one awful thread.  Some of his friends responded in kind and were considering playing the game.  I'm pretty sure the website wasn't a gamer website either.

But this is off-topic. 

*goes back to lurking*

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

But how, exactly, does changing Kaidan's sexuality less "believable" than changing Tali and Garrus' attraction to Shepard? Why exactly would you view Kaidan's attraction to manShep a "retcon," even though to actually "retcon" anything, it would have to contradict something? How would bisexuality make Kaidan less "believable" as a character in a work of fiction?

I forgot to answer that part. Sorry about that.

"Characters in a work of fiction", as you put it, are not real. Though they are not real, and the writers want to give the characters a sense of realism, so they have to have a sort of structure, which in turn is part of believability. The structure is made of many factors, and since Mass Effect has romances (which sexuality is a part of), sexuality is one of them. You may argue that people may reveal that they like others of the same sex in real life. This is not real life, so not all of the rules apply. Characters should be established from the beginning, when it comes to romances. Not having Kaidan be bi in the beginning, but making him bi in ME3 takes away from that establishment, which in turn takes away from the structure.

In your stories, your characters sexualities can be established in stone at the beginning of the story. That's how you believe romances "should" happen. But it is not how they have to happen. Characters in fiction can exhibit a "change" in sexuality and do so with believability, and even with respect for the established canon. This can be explained in a number of ways ("I didn't want to broadcast my sexuality," "I've never thought about another man this way," etc) and even if those ways do not completely satisfy you, they are still valid explanations.

Again, I'll ask why Kaidan's interest in manShep "takes away" from the "established structure" of the story, but Tali and Garrus' sudden interest in Shepard after he/she dies does not.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 28 juin 2011 - 04:08 .

[Medhia Nox]

I used to lurk... until the cops got smart.

[Maugrim]

Village Idiot wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Yeah.  Wasn't Gaider fairly widely praised for slamming the homophobic backlash on the forums?  I don't suppose we have any numbers or anything, but I will certainly agree that the bisexual love interests were not what was wrong with DA2.

Yeah.  A facebook friend who I'm fairly certain doesn't play Dragon Age linked to a website praising Gaider's responses in that one awful thread.  Some of his friends responded in kind and were considering playing the game.  I'm pretty sure the website wasn't a gamer website either.

But this is off-topic. 

*goes back to lurking*

Considering basically nothing that happens get covered on these forums, yeah it was widely covered within gaming media.  I saw articiles at numerous blogs, Kotaku, The Escapist, IGN, The Guardian's online website just to name a few.  All of it positive.

[BurtonSD]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Yeah.  Wasn't Gaider fairly widely praised for slamming the homophobic backlash on the forums?  I don't suppose we have any numbers or anything, but I will certainly agree that the bisexual love interests were not what was wrong with DA2.

Yeah.  A facebook friend who I'm fairly certain doesn't play Dragon Age linked to a website praising Gaider's responses in that one awful thread.  Some of his friends responded in kind and were considering playing the game.  I'm pretty sure the website wasn't a gamer website either.

But this is off-topic. 

*goes back to lurking*

Considering basically nothing that happens get covered on these forums, yeah it was widely covered within gaming media.  I saw articiles at numerous blogs, Kotaku, The Escapist, IGN, The Guardian's online website just to name a few.  All of it positive.

Please don't use Kotaku as an example.

[Maugrim]

BurtonSD wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Yeah.  Wasn't Gaider fairly widely praised for slamming the homophobic backlash on the forums?  I don't suppose we have any numbers or anything, but I will certainly agree that the bisexual love interests were not what was wrong with DA2.

Yeah.  A facebook friend who I'm fairly certain doesn't play Dragon Age linked to a website praising Gaider's responses in that one awful thread.  Some of his friends responded in kind and were considering playing the game.  I'm pretty sure the website wasn't a gamer website either.

But this is off-topic. 

*goes back to lurking*

Considering basically nothing that happens get covered on these forums, yeah it was widely covered within gaming media.  I saw articiles at numerous blogs, Kotaku, The Escapist, IGN, The Guardian's online website just to name a few.  All of it positive.

Please don't use Kotaku as an example.

I really don't care if you like it or not, it relatively 'big' in the gaming world, that's the relevant portion.  Every other site I listed has it haters, my point stands.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 28 juin 2011 - 04:20 .

[BlaznZero]

Am I a man hypocrite?

Damn right, I am!

(P.S. Everybody Bi interest was not MOST of what was wrong with DA2)

And the poster that put the alphabet options: I'd take "G"

Modifié par BlaznZero, 28 juin 2011 - 04:22 .

[Sin of Leet]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Yeah.  Wasn't Gaider fairly widely praised for slamming the homophobic backlash on the forums?  I don't suppose we have any numbers or anything, but I will certainly agree that the bisexual love interests were not what was wrong with DA2.

Yeah.  A facebook friend who I'm fairly certain doesn't play Dragon Age linked to a website praising Gaider's responses in that one awful thread.  Some of his friends responded in kind and were considering playing the game.  I'm pretty sure the website wasn't a gamer website either.

But this is off-topic. 

*goes back to lurking*

Considering basically nothing that happens get covered on these forums, yeah it was widely covered within gaming media.  I saw articiles at numerous blogs, Kotaku, The Escapist, IGN, The Guardian's online website just to name a few.  All of it positive.

You mentioned IGN, and are trying to use it as a credible source. Your argument is now moot.

[falconlord5]

Sin of Leet wrote...


You mentioned IGN, and are trying to use it as a credible source. Your argument is now moot.

How? Just 'cause you don't like IGN, doesn't mean they aren't credible.

[BurtonSD]

makenzieshepard wrote...

I really don't care if you like it or not, it relatively 'big' in the gaming world, that's the relevant portion.  Every other site I listed has it haters, my point stands.

No it is not. And using it as an example is the equivalent of using wikipedia as a source for your college research paper.

Check yourself.

I agree on your point, just not on the source you used. Don't get pissy with me.

Modifié par BurtonSD, 28 juin 2011 - 04:28 .

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Again, I'll ask why Kaidan's interest in manShep "takes away" from the "established structure" of the story, but Tali and Garrus' sudden interest in Shepard after he/she dies does not.

I played ME2 first. I had NO idea that Tali or Garrus were not romanceable in ME1. When I did play ME1, I was fully expecting to romance them from the beginning, as I heard that you could continue your romance into the next game (from ME1 to ME2). I was surprised when I couldn't.

I'll admit, it kinda didn't make sense at first (concerning the fact that both Garrus and Tali were different amino types). But as I went on, I took it for what it was, as it was in the game and I don't complain about stuff like that, and it grew on me.

So.... the "retcon" of Tali and Garrus' sexualities (because, for all we knew, they weren't interested in a human, because they never stated otherwise) is okay with you because you started the series in the middle, and therefore had a different perspective on their characters?

Why can't you just take Kaidan's bisexuality "for what it is" and not complain about it and let it grow on you?? Changing Kaidan's sexuality is no different than Garrus and Tali suddenly becoming interested in a human.

[Maugrim]

BurtonSD wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

I really don't care if you like it or not, it relatively 'big' in the gaming world, that's the relevant portion.  Every other site I listed has it haters, my point stands.

No it is not. And using it as an example is the equivalent of using wikipedia as a source for your college research paper.

Check yourself.

I agree on your point, just not on the source you used. Don't get pissy with me.

There is nothing to agree with numbnuts, it's a -relatively- well traveled gaming site/blog(Notice nothing said about the quality, you're just projecting there).  The fact that you know it and have formed an opinion just proves it. 

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 28 juin 2011 - 04:34 .

[megski]

Maybe this point has been made, but why would anyone care in the first place? Isn't one of the best parts about these games the choice to be in a relationship? If a same sex relationship makes you uncomfortable, you don't have to be in one. I really don't think that bioware is going to force relationships on people, if they d,o that is another problem within the RPG realm entirely.

Don't hurt me, I'm a newb! x:

[Sin of Leet]

falconlord5 wrote...

Sin of Leet wrote...


You mentioned IGN, and are trying to use it as a credible source. Your argument is now moot.

How? Just 'cause you don't like IGN, doesn't mean they aren't credible.

Oh please, any game without Call of Duty in its name and is an FPS gets a bad rating. Good Christ, the reviewer for Duke Nukem Forever didn't even admitted that he didn' t even finish the game. Saying IGN is credible is like saying that Fox News is a good place to get a political analysis.

[shepskisaac]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
Why can't you just take Kaidan's bisexuality "for what it is" and not complain about it and let it grow on you?? Changing Kaidan's sexuality is no different than Garrus and Tali suddenly becoming interested in a human.

And the best part is that' both things are what BW wanted to do with Kaidan & Tali in the first place, but didn't due to time constraints in Kaidan's case and uncertainty how would the players respond to a romance with a weird alien in Tali's case. From BW's perspective, they might always been bisexual (Kaidan) and having a crush on Shep (Tali) and BW was just waiting for second chance to implement the side of their characters they didn't manage to do in ME1.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 juin 2011 - 04:35 .

[Darthnemesis2]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Again, I'll ask why Kaidan's interest in manShep "takes away" from the "established structure" of the story, but Tali and Garrus' sudden interest in Shepard after he/she dies does not.

I played ME2 first. I had NO idea that Tali or Garrus were not romanceable in ME1. When I did play ME1, I was fully expecting to romance them from the beginning, as I heard that you could continue your romance into the next game (from ME1 to ME2). I was surprised when I couldn't.

I'll admit, it kinda didn't make sense at first (concerning the fact that both Garrus and Tali were different amino types). But as I went on, I took it for what it was, as it was in the game and I don't complain about stuff like that, and it grew on me.

So.... the "retcon" of Tali and Garrus' sexualities (because, for all we knew, they weren't interested in a human, because they never stated otherwise) is okay with you because you started the series in the middle, and therefore had a different perspective on their characters?

Why can't you just take Kaidan's bisexuality "for what it is" and not complain about it and let it grow on you?? Changing Kaidan's sexuality is no different than Garrus and Tali suddenly becoming interested in a human.

*DING DING DING* WE HAVE A WINNER!! 


You can't argue retcons/continuity issues if you started the series from the middle, dude. 
And Katie brings up a good point, how is letting the Tali/Garrus romance "grow on you" different from letting a Bi-sexual romance "grow on you"?

[Siansonea]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Again, I'll ask why Kaidan's interest in manShep "takes away" from the "established structure" of the story, but Tali and Garrus' sudden interest in Shepard after he/she dies does not.

I played ME2 first. I had NO idea that Tali or Garrus were not romanceable in ME1. When I did play ME1, I was fully expecting to romance them from the beginning, as I heard that you could continue your romance into the next game (from ME1 to ME2). I was surprised when I couldn't.

I'll admit, it kinda didn't make sense at first (concerning the fact that both Garrus and Tali were different amino types). But as I went on, I took it for what it was, as it was in the game and I don't complain about stuff like that, and it grew on me.

So.... the "retcon" of Tali and Garrus' sexualities (because, for all we knew, they weren't interested in a human, because they never stated otherwise) is okay with you because you started the series in the middle, and therefore had a different perspective on their characters?

Why can't you just take Kaidan's bisexuality "for what it is" and not complain about it and let it grow on you?? Changing Kaidan's sexuality is no different than Garrus and Tali suddenly becoming interested in a human.

If you only play ME2, then the sum total of your experience with Kaidan is Horizon. So how is THAT guy a character worth fighting for? Why is THAT guy's sexuality of such concern? If my first intro to Kaidan was ME2, I'd be all, "eff off Elvis, why you hasslin' me bro, Cerberus is the shizzle!" because, well, I wouldn't know that he was 100% right to call Shepard a traitor and that Cerberus was Straight Up Evil. But because I did play ME1, and I know Kaidan, and I know Cerberus, and I know that I don't know everything there is to know about Kaidan or anyone else in the game. I can acknowledge that there's room for BioWare to do things with the character. To me, Kaidan and Miranda are the natural choices for s/s bisexual LIs, because they both play their cards close to the chest. If you think you know who they are, you're probably kidding yourself. Miranda is especially enigmatic. I think I've only seen her mask slip once, on Illium, as Oriana is leaving with her family. Everything else about Miranda, and I mean everything, could be a façade. With Kaidan it's not so much a façade as it is discretion. He gives you information on a need-to-know basis, he's not going to wear his heart or anything else on his sleeve.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 28 juin 2011 - 04:40 .

[BlaznZero]

Honestly, Kaidan not being a bi option surprised me.
Same with Jack. If any people fit the "Option G", they do.