665 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

BlaznZero wrote...

Honestly, Kaidan not being a bi option surprised me.
Same with Jack. If any people fit the "Option G", they do.

As much as I approve of a Bi-Jack I'm not sure it really makes sense.  Sure,  people will say she was in a threesome,  but,  the details behind it are fuzzy at best...  and one threesome does not a bisexual make.

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

In my opinion, just about all the characters have taken hits on their structure. I don't want anymore damage being done to that structure.

Charatcers change. Characters evolve and develop. In fact, if you ask me, the best stories are when characters show you new and different sides of themselves. In your stories, you can have characters that remain static and unchanged, if you believe that that is the purest form of character expression. And that's fine. But that is not how Bioware rolls.

[BurtonSD]

makenzieshepard wrote...

BurtonSD wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

I really don't care if you like it or not, it relatively 'big' in the gaming world, that's the relevant portion.  Every other site I listed has it haters, my point stands.

No it is not. And using it as an example is the equivalent of using wikipedia as a source for your college research paper.

Check yourself.

I agree on your point, just not on the source you used. Don't get pissy with me.

There is nothing to agree with numbnuts, 1.) it's a -relatively- well traveled gaming site/blog(Notice nothing said about the quality, you're just projecting there).  2.) The fact that you know it and have formed an opinion just proves it. 

1.) A site only useful for laughs as they cannot be taken seriously. Didn't even catch you mentioned IGN as well, lol.
2.) No duh. Someone has to go around to a prevent fools like yourself from running around and using it as credible sources. Way to go brah.

I'm done.

Modifié par BurtonSD, 28 juin 2011 - 04:51 .

[keekee53]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

BlaznZero wrote...

Honestly, Kaidan not being a bi option surprised me.
Same with Jack. If any people fit the "Option G", they do.

As much as I approve of a Bi-Jack I'm not sure it really makes sense.  Sure,  people will say she was in a threesome,  but,  the details behind it are fuzzy at best...  and one threesome does not a bisexual make.

Really?  I am stunned by this comment considering she was at least in a bed with another woman.  I have not heard one comment about Kaidan or Ashely being in bed with the same gender.  People think it makes sense for them to be bisexual.  I am not trying to offend.  I am really surprised.

[BlaznZero]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

BlaznZero wrote...

Honestly, Kaidan not being a bi option surprised me.
Same with Jack. If any people fit the "Option G", they do.

As much as I approve of a Bi-Jack I'm not sure it really makes sense.  Sure,  people will say she was in a threesome,  but,  the details behind it are fuzzy at best...  and one threesome does not a bisexual make.

 True too. 
 However, (God, Don't make me sound judgemental), I personally can see Jack as a possible Bi without the slightest sacrifice of character or original personality. 
 Now, don't kill me one and all. 
 
Problem with Option G is that it is very subjective (which is why Bioware shall be making these decisions).
Someone else can say "Jack would never run both ways! Now GARRUS..."  and I can't logically refute that. Only the original writers can.

Interesting part about Bioware games and this forum. So many perspectives.

Modifié par BlaznZero, 28 juin 2011 - 04:55 .

[Medhia Nox]

I think what Big Bad Wolf is trying to get at is:

Prior to ME 2... nothing is mentioned, at all, about romance concerning Garrus and Tali (correct me if I'm wrong - I don't recall). They're blank slates when it comes to loving "anything".

It can be argued that Kaidan gives an example of a woman the he falls for in "Biotic school" ((though he never mentions anything about love or intimacy)) - plus, his romance with femShep, and some mentions of Liara... etc.

There's no "re-writing" being done to Tali and Garrus. Whereas Kaidan seems to be changing fairly significantly.

Now - I don't completely agree with Wolf... but I can see where he's arguing from, and it's not irrational like "some" forum posters.

((Btw... correct me if I'm off the mark here BBW))

[VirtualStranger]

TexasToast712 wrote...

JESUS CHRIST! 
Trying to reason with a homosexual is like trying to argue with a woman. It just aint gonna go in your favor even if you are right. Iam done with this crap.

I really hope that was some bad sarcasm. Are you seriously trying to convince people that you're not a homophobe? And then you bust out a line like that? The sexism was a nice touch, too. Keep it up, maybe someone will take you seriously if you offend enough people.

Modifié par VirtualStranger, 28 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[Siansonea]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

I played ME2 first. I had NO idea that Tali or Garrus were not romanceable in ME1. When I did play ME1, I was fully expecting to romance them from the beginning, as I heard that you could continue your romance into the next game (from ME1 to ME2). I was surprised when I couldn't.

I'll admit, it kinda didn't make sense at first (concerning the fact that both Garrus and Tali were different amino types). But as I went on, I took it for what it was, as it was in the game and I don't complain about stuff like that, and it grew on me.

So.... the "retcon" of Tali and Garrus' sexualities (because, for all we knew, they weren't interested in a human, because they never stated otherwise) is okay with you because you started the series in the middle, and therefore had a different perspective on their characters?

Why can't you just take Kaidan's bisexuality "for what it is" and not complain about it and let it grow on you?? Changing Kaidan's sexuality is no different than Garrus and Tali suddenly becoming interested in a human.

If you only play ME2, then the sum total of your experience with Kaidan is Horizon. So how is THAT guy a character worth fighting for? Why is THAT guy's sexuality of such concern? If my first intro to Kaidan was ME2, I'd be all, "eff off Elvis, why you hasslin' me bro, Cerberus is the shizzle!" because, well, I wouldn't know that he was 100% right to call Shepard a traitor and that Cerberus was Straight Up Evil. But because I did play ME1, and I know Kaidan, and I know Cerberus, and I know that I don't know everything there is to know about Kaidan or anyone else in the game. I can acknowledge that there's room for BioWare to do things with the character. To me, Kaidan and Miranda are the natural choices for s/s bisexual LIs, because they both play their cards close to the chest. If you think you know who they are, you're probably kidding yourself. Miranda is especially enigmatic. I think I've only seen her mask slip once, on Illium, as Oriana is leaving with her family. Everything else about Miranda, and I mean everything, could be a façade. With Kaidan it's not so much a façade as it is discretion. He gives you information on a need-to-know basis, he's not going to wear his heart or anything else on his sleeve.

Read my post again. I played ME2 first. I did play ME1.

And just what about good ol' Kaidancakes was so compelling for you that this one area is where you want to plug the leaking seive of "character continuity"? Because if that was MY main concern, I'd have a laundry list, and Kaidan's interest in peepees or lack thereof wouldn't be anywhere near the top. I'd start with "Hey Garrus, I thought you were going back to C-Sec?" and work my way down.

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

And Katie brings up a good point, how is letting the Tali/Garrus romance "grow on you" different from letting a Bi-sexual romance "grow on you"?

It's a good thing I'm not arguing retcons, then.

I would honestly love a direct answer to that question. Why did Garrus/Tali's romance "grow on you," and yet you argue so strongly against Kaidan's bisexuality? 

And if you answer is "It's because I played ME2 first," you are missing the point. From the perspective of ME1, there is no reason why Tali and Garrus should find Shepard (or any human) sexually attractive. And yet this is acceptable to you. Why not bisexual Kaidan?

If a new player started the series at ME3 and said, "Oh, I didn't realize that Kaidan wasn't bisexual in the earlier games, but it grew on me so I don't see it as a retcon," you'd probably be quick to point out their skewed perspective.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 28 juin 2011 - 04:55 .

[AngelicMachinery]

keekee53 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

BlaznZero wrote...

Honestly, Kaidan not being a bi option surprised me.
Same with Jack. If any people fit the "Option G", they do.

As much as I approve of a Bi-Jack I'm not sure it really makes sense.  Sure,  people will say she was in a threesome,  but,  the details behind it are fuzzy at best...  and one threesome does not a bisexual make.

Really?  I am stunned by this comment considering she was at least in a bed with another woman.  I have not heard one comment about Kaidan or Ashely being in bed with the same gender.  People think it makes sense for them to be bisexual.  I am not trying to offend.  I am really surprised.

There are a few reasons one it seems that the relationship was horribly unhealthy and she was simply attempting to please the individuals involved because she believed she found a place with them.  Secondly, there was the girl's club comment which...  as I was hoping for a F/F relationship I took it to mean she swings for the other team.  Lastly,  well...  one can have a threesome with relatively little contact with one of the participants.  The others are in my opinion more vague.

I'll be pleased as hell if I'm proven wrong,  but,  as is things seem rather obvious to me.  While oddly enough the others appear more ambigious.

[shepskisaac]

Medhia Nox wrote...
There's no "re-writing" being done to Tali and Garrus. Whereas Kaidan seems to be changing fairly significantly.

Changing in what? The man-loving side of his bisexuality doesn't change his past crush for Rahna or liking Asaris. Bisexual people like both genders. If I like pizza, it doesn't change anything in my liking for cheeseburgers.

[Darthnemesis2]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Again, I'll ask why Kaidan's interest in manShep "takes away" from the "established structure" of the story, but Tali and Garrus' sudden interest in Shepard after he/she dies does not.

I played ME2 first. I had NO idea that Tali or Garrus were not romanceable in ME1. When I did play ME1, I was fully expecting to romance them from the beginning, as I heard that you could continue your romance into the next game (from ME1 to ME2). I was surprised when I couldn't.

I'll admit, it kinda didn't make sense at first (concerning the fact that both Garrus and Tali were different amino types). But as I went on, I took it for what it was, as it was in the game and I don't complain about stuff like that, and it grew on me.

So.... the "retcon" of Tali and Garrus' sexualities (because, for all we knew, they weren't interested in a human, because they never stated otherwise) is okay with you because you started the series in the middle, and therefore had a different perspective on their characters?

Why can't you just take Kaidan's bisexuality "for what it is" and not complain about it and let it grow on you?? Changing Kaidan's sexuality is no different than Garrus and Tali suddenly becoming interested in a human.

*DING DING DING* WE HAVE A WINNER!! 


You can't argue retcons/continuity issues if you started the series from the middle, dude. 
And Katie brings up a good point, how is letting the Tali/Garrus romance "grow on you" different from letting a Bi-sexual romance "grow on you"?

It's a good thing I'm not arguing retcons, then.

Ah, excellent. I missed a few pages, I thought you were one of them. 

Anyway, still doesn't answer the other part. (how is letting the Tali/Garrus romance "grow on you" different from letting a Bi-sexual romance "grow on you"?) 

[Inquisitor Recon]

VirtualStranger wrote...
I really hope that was some bad sarcasm. Are you seriously trying to convince people that you're not a homophobe? And then you bust out a line like that? The sexism was a nice touch, too. Keep it up, maybe someone will take you seriously if you offend enough people.

TexasToast is right you know, you're fanatics, it's as simple as that. You can't be reasoned with, you aren't interested in compromise, you dismiss anybody who doesn't cave to your demands as "homophobes", even if a character had a "straight" sign around their neck you would say "their sexuality isn't established", you think Bioware owes you gay content, and you're downright obsessed with these romances in a video game.

[Medhia Nox]

@IsaacShep - I'm just trying to see things from all points of view here my friend. I can see where it would appear Kaidan would be changing... it's a matter of perspective.

He could be gay and still "like" Rahna - he only ever says that she was beautiful and that they were close.

My point wasn't to affirm either side.

=====

@ReconTeam - shaddup homophobe! 

Oh man, I just proved your point...

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 juin 2011 - 05:00 .

[Darthnemesis2]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

And Katie brings up a good point, how is letting the Tali/Garrus romance "grow on you" different from letting a Bi-sexual romance "grow on you"?

It's a good thing I'm not arguing retcons, then.

I would honestly love a direct answer to that question. Why did Garrus/Tali's romance "grow on you," and yet you argue so strongly against Kaidan's bisexuality? 

And if you answer is "It's because I played ME2 first," you are missing the point. From the perspective of ME1, there is no reason why Tali and Garrus should find Shepard (or any human) sexually attractive. And yet this is acceptable to you. Why not bisexual Kaidan?

If a new player started the series at ME3 and said, "Oh, I didn't realize that Kaidan wasn't bisexual in the earlier games, but it grew on me so I don't see it as a retcon," you'd probably be quick to point out their skewed perspective.

Because I took it as what it was. No point in complaining about an already in-game feature. Also, Tali has human characteristics, so it wasn't that hard too see. Garrus on the other hand....

Okay... so again... how is this different? It's already in the game (s/s content, if not specifically Kaidan). Can you not just take it as "was it is"? I'm not trying to being snide, I'm genuinely curious as to the difference.

[Siansonea]

ReconTeam wrote...

VirtualStranger wrote...
I really hope that was some bad sarcasm. Are you seriously trying to convince people that you're not a homophobe? And then you bust out a line like that? The sexism was a nice touch, too. Keep it up, maybe someone will take you seriously if you offend enough people.

TexasToast is right you know, you're fanatics, it's as simple as that. You can't be reasoned with, you aren't interested in compromise, you dismiss anybody who doesn't cave to your demands as "homophobes", even if a character had a "straight" sign around their neck you would say "their sexuality isn't established", you think Bioware owes you gay content, and you're downright obsessed with these romances in a video game.

And you, doggedly dogging our every step, are somehow NOT a fanatic? Hmmmmmm?

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...


Because I took it as what it was. No point in complaining about an already in-game feature. Also, Tali has human characteristics, so it wasn't that hard too see. Garrus on the other hand....

Hypothedical situation: Bioware announces Kaidan's bisexuality.  It's going to be in the game no matter how much you cry and scream. Do you "accept it for what it is" or do you moan and complain that Kaidan's character has taken a hit to its "structure"?

The way I see it, if you're going to moan about Kaidan's sexuality even though you can't change it, you should also be moaning about Garrus and Tali, because that was a major "blow" to the "structure" of Garrus and Tali's characters. It doesn't matter if you didn't realize that they weren't always romance-options; your current knowlege that they were "changed" to be romance-options should have you complaining. But you're not because the idea "grew on you." Using your own logic, Kaidan's bisexuality should "grow on you," too, because it's something out of your control.

But if you still say, "No, Kaidan's change in sexuality will never 'grow on me' because it's inherently different than Garrus and Tali's change in sexuality," I'm going to accuse you of having a drop of homophobia again, because the only difference between Kaidan and Garrus/Tali is that Garrus and Tali were changed to be heterosexual. And if heterosexual "retcons" are okay with you but homosexual "retcons" are not... Yeah, that's homophobia.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 28 juin 2011 - 05:16 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Siansonea II wrote...
And you, doggedly dogging our every step, are somehow NOT a fanatic? Hmmmmmm?

I merely state the truth of the matter, but think of me however you like.

[Siansonea]

Personally, I found Shepard's relationship with Tali to be squick-inducing on a couple of levels. She pretty much admits to crushing on Shepard for a long time, and she just lost her father AND got exiled from her entire people, and she's willing to risk DEATH to have the sexytimes with a gross hairy human. Might the girl be a bit fragile emotionally? Might it be the better part of valor to NOT indulge her impulse to sex up Shepard?