665 réponses à ce sujet

[ScotGaymer]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Don't post here anymore than, if you tell me I don't listen, but you won't even respond to my questions. Don't want to spend time discussing with me? Okay, don't post again.

Seriously do you even read what you type?

Ive been telling you to do that for the last 3 posts. Jeez.

I only responded to you specifically (as I was responding to the OP in the same post) to say that I didnt want to get into it. A sentiment you have required me to repeat for several posts.

Methinks someone just HAS to get the last word in no matter what.

[Zkyire]

FitScotGaymer wrote...


I completely dont agree.

On the grounds that certain characters demonstrate a certain shall we say sexual flexibility in both ME1 and ME2 (specifically Kaidan flirting with ManShep in ME1 and "losing you was like losing an arm" thing in ME2; and Jack having explicitly said she has BEEN WITH GIRLS before). Therefore it would not be massively out of the realm of possibility to have these characters "come out" as it were as admirers of the amazing Shepard in the same fashion as Tali and Garrus (though I hope they arent horrendous). is what they are.

She says she was young, vulnerable and fell in with the wrong people that took advantage of her (also it was a threesome).

But explicitly states that she is not into women.

[VirtualStranger]

[quote]Bocks wrote...

[quote]VirtualStranger wrote...

The main problem is that opponents of s/s romances for existing characters,and the rest of the game in general, is the obvious double standards.

You say that old characters becoming bisexual LI will somehow irrevocably change into something they weren't before, yet you seem to ignore that real people do this all the time.[/quote]
Ok, first off, this isn't real life. It's a game.[/quote]
That's what some pro-s/s people were saying when people were complaining about all bi LIs being "unrealistic." make up your mind.

[quote]Secondly, I said this is true IF THE WRITERS handle it badly, which I have my belief that they will.[/quote]
Then why complain about the old LIs being bi? It seems to me like you should be campaining for the writing not to suck, instead.

[quote]Tell me, what's the difference between someone becoming a bi LI, and automatically cooling heat sinks becoming disposable heatsinks that need to be swapped out?[quote]One is a gameplay mechanic and a borderline retcon while the other is a dialogue option.[/quote][/quote]
That still does not explain what the difference is.

[quote]You claim to not want to ever be forced to see gay content if you dont want to, but you fail to see how it is for gay players to be forced to see straight content that they don't want to. (which they already are, all the time, everywhere they go) Why you don't wan't to see it, I have no Idea. You have a "I'm fine with gay people in the game, but I don't want to see it" attitude, which is very insulting.

[quote]That's because homosexuality is a minority in the world, as hard as it may be to accept.[/quote][/quote]When has that ever been an acceptable justification for anything?

[quote]And it's insulting that I want to play the game without homosexual content for old characters? I HAVE to see this content? Well, I'd be fine with James Vega coming onto me, but not other, established characters. In those instances, it's Shepard who must activate the content, not the npc.[/quote]So why do you deserve to be exempt from being forced to see content that contradicts your preferences, but gay people aren't afforded that same exemption? I don't see you complainig about the asari consort, Shiala, Gianna Parasini and Harkin. What about Ashley and Liara, where not only do they initiate the romantic interaction with you just for being nice to them, but you can accidentally be forced into their romances? What about Jacob, who femShep is forced to flirt with if they want to even talk to him? What about Tali, who starts making akward advances even though you've shown no interest in her? How about when Aria goes "you should find a nice woman to keep you company" and you're given no opportunity to correct her on it?

[quote]
[quote]You are a victim of heterosexual privilidge and you don't realize it. You have been conditioned by society to only think of bigotry and discrimination in the terms of blatant rudeness, when most of the time it is much more subtle than that. "Priviledge" refers to the way society confers power from one group to another. You have lived with that priviledge all throughout your life, so you find it impossible to put yourself in the position of those who haven't.

To fix that, I'd start by reading this: http://www.cs.earlha...htprivilege.htm[/quote]
I don't even know what this is. Apparently, if I have different opinions, I must fix my life.[/quote]
I never said that, only that you need a better sense of perspective.

[quote]EDIT: Actually, you know what? I've got more to say to this. You're accusing me of being anti-gay? Seriously?[/quote]
No. Only that you won't see things from their point of view.

[quote]I've seen the worst kinds of discrimination in my life, against friends and enemies. I've grown up in a family that completely supports the human rights of people with homosexual preference. I've gone to gay marches with my friends and I've heard gay people speak about how they just want to be allowed to do whatever they want with their lives. I fully support gay marriage.[/quote]
1st: Stop being so melodramatic.

2nd: So? Experiencing discrimination first-hand is not a magic "get out of prejudice free" card. The rampant homophobia in the black community is evidence of that.

Supporting gay people doesn't mean you understand their viewpoint.

[quote]I fully support gay people. However, I don't want THEIR lifestyle in MY life.[/quote]
Homosexuality is a lifestyle now? I'm sorry, but I can't hear this line without imagining it coming out of the mouth of some republican governer from Mississippi. That is their rhetoric, after all.

Regardless of the false notion that homosexuality is somehow a "lifestyle," What gives you the right to never have to be confronted with something that is a fact of life? Gay people don't seem to have that right.

[quote]I am a straight male, ok? I am certain I would feel uncomfortable with gay content, because it's not something I want to see in my playthrough.[/quote]
And why do you find it uncomfortable? And why do you have a right to not be made "uncomfortabe"? I'm sure a lot of gay people find being forced to see straight content in their game "uncomfortable" yet they deal with it anyway. Why can't you? Mind you, straight content shows up EVERYWHERE, yet you're complaining about one little conversation that let's you let them know that you're not interested.

You don't even want to have to see it? not participate in it, mind you, but just see it. Don't you think that's a little demanding? Why would having a character turn out to be bisexual completely change your perspective on them? It's not like anyone is FORCING you to romance them.

[quote]Don't you dare assume for one moment that I do not support gay people just because I refuse to have gay content, something YOU are pushing for, in MY playthrough.[/quote]
No one has said anything about you being forced to participate in a s/s romance in your game.

Did you even read that link? I thought it would help you gain some insight. Maybe I thought it would help you realize that what you're complaining about (being confronted with someone else's sexual preference) is an everyday occurance for gay people. That maybe they have far more of a reason to complain than you do.

And that, my friend, is one of the many wonderful priviledges being straight has bestowed upon you.

Modifié par VirtualStranger, 28 juin 2011 - 01:46 .

[MACharlie1]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...


I completely dont agree.

On the grounds that certain characters demonstrate a certain shall we say sexual flexibility in both ME1 and ME2 (specifically Kaidan flirting with ManShep in ME1 and "losing you was like losing an arm" thing in ME2; and Jack having explicitly said she has BEEN WITH GIRLS before). Therefore it would not be massively out of the realm of possibility to have these characters "come out" as it were as admirers of the amazing Shepard in the same fashion as Tali and Garrus (though I hope they arent horrendous). is what they are.

She says she was young, vulnerable and fell in with the wrong people that took advantage of her (also it was a threesome).

But explicitly states that she is not into women.

Girls club =/= sex. 
Girls club   =  gossiping and painting toenails. 

Would you ever refer to a gentlemens club as sex between men? 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 28 juin 2011 - 01:09 .

[ScotGaymer]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...


I completely dont agree.

On the grounds that certain characters demonstrate a certain shall we say sexual flexibility in both ME1 and ME2 (specifically Kaidan flirting with ManShep in ME1 and "losing you was like losing an arm" thing in ME2; and Jack having explicitly said she has BEEN WITH GIRLS before). Therefore it would not be massively out of the realm of possibility to have these characters "come out" as it were as admirers of the amazing Shepard in the same fashion as Tali and Garrus (though I hope they arent horrendous). is what they are.

She says she was young, vulnerable and fell in with the wrong people that took advantage of her (also it was a threesome).

But explicitly states that she is not into women.

Ah see I didn't take it as her saying that.

To me it seemed more like she wasnt saying she was a girly girl who was into "true love" and all that; and wasnt particularily interested in that sort of thing with FemShep.
It took it as a knock back to FemShep as a function of Jack's disinterest more than her saying shes "straight".

Perspective matters a lot I guess lol.

[Zkyire]

MACharlie1 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...


I completely dont agree.

On the grounds that certain characters demonstrate a certain shall we say sexual flexibility in both ME1 and ME2 (specifically Kaidan flirting with ManShep in ME1 and "losing you was like losing an arm" thing in ME2; and Jack having explicitly said she has BEEN WITH GIRLS before). Therefore it would not be massively out of the realm of possibility to have these characters "come out" as it were as admirers of the amazing Shepard in the same fashion as Tali and Garrus (though I hope they arent horrendous). is what they are.

She says she was young, vulnerable and fell in with the wrong people that took advantage of her (also it was a threesome).

But explicitly states that she is not into women.

Girls club =/= sex. 
Girls club   =  gossiping and painting toenails. 

Would you ever refer to a gentlemens club as sex between men? 

Ugh.

If MaleShep comes onto Jack; she's all for it.

If FemShep comes onto Jack, she says she's not interested in women.

How much more clear do you need it to be?

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 28 juin 2011 - 01:14 .

[Ghost Warrior]

FitScotGaymer wrote...


Seriously do you even read what you type?

Ive been telling you to do that for the last 3 posts. Jeez.

I only responded to you specifically (as I was responding to the OP in the same post) to say that I didnt want to get into it. A sentiment you have required me to repeat for several posts.

Methinks someone just HAS to get the last word in no matter what.

You say you don't want to talk about it,yet you keep doing it again and again,but without giving any explanation. Just tell us what exactly was offensive that he said and get it over with.

[MACharlie1]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...


I completely dont agree.

On the grounds that certain characters demonstrate a certain shall we say sexual flexibility in both ME1 and ME2 (specifically Kaidan flirting with ManShep in ME1 and "losing you was like losing an arm" thing in ME2; and Jack having explicitly said she has BEEN WITH GIRLS before). Therefore it would not be massively out of the realm of possibility to have these characters "come out" as it were as admirers of the amazing Shepard in the same fashion as Tali and Garrus (though I hope they arent horrendous). is what they are.

She says she was young, vulnerable and fell in with the wrong people that took advantage of her (also it was a threesome).

But explicitly states that she is not into women.

Girls club =/= sex. 
Girls club   =  gossiping and painting toenails. 

Would you ever refer to a gentlemens club as sex between men? 

Ugh.

If MaleShep comes onto Jack; she's all for it.

If FemShep comes onto Jack, she says she's not interested in women.

How much more clear do you need it to be?

FemShep never comes onto Jack. What line are you talking about? 

[Bocks]

[quote]FitScotGaymer wrote...

I completely dont agree.


[/quote]

What? Why not? This is the best possible way to make both sides happy. Homosexuals get their beloved s/s romances and heterosexuals never have to see them if they don't want to! Why is this such a problem for you?

[/quote]
On the grounds that certain characters demonstrate a certain shall we say sexual flexibility in both ME1 and ME2 (specifically Kaidan flirting with ManShep in ME1 and "losing you was like losing an arm" thing in ME2; and Jack having explicitly said she has BEEN WITH GIRLS before). Therefore it would not be massively out of the realm of possibility to have these characters "come out" as it were as admirers of the amazing Shepard in the same fashion as Tali and Garrus (though I hope they arent horrendous).
[/quote]

Jack I may understand, since she said it herself that she had had sexual experiences with other women. Kaidan never flirted with Shepard in my save file. I don't know where you're getting it from. He never explicitly states that he is bisexual at all. Point is this: as long as the characters openly said that they were bisexual or gay, than that may be used as an excuse for coming onto Shepard, but otherwise it's just annoying to see a character I previously thought to be exclusively heterosexual turn into bisexuals.

[quote]

In anwer to your "some people dont want gay content" I can only say these people come in two flavours.

One: People who arent a fan of romances at all and would prefer the game to be "Gen" to borrow a FanFiction term. These people tend to think its a bit stupid to waste so much time on something that they view as frivilous; and given how bad the ME2 romances were (in general) I cant say that I blame them.
Two: Homophobic people who can't get past the "ick" factor of SS; whether they admit it or not this is what they are.

[/quote]

Three: People who want s/s romances as long as the player is the one to decide he or she wants to initiate the content.

I fall into that category. If you see things in Black and White, I can't help you.

[quote]
If you dont consider your self in either category but are still against gay content in the game (which wouldnt take away content for you but only add content "for us") then you are both a hypocrite. And possibly a
troll. And you still come under the second category.
You are either not homophobic and able to accept diversity and difference, accept that everyone deserves to want to be represented, to see themselves reflected in their hobbies; or you are not. There is no middle way on this.
[/quote]

Ugh, how many times do I have to say this? IT IS TOO LATE IN THE SERIES FOR OLD CHARACTERS TO COME ONTO SHEPARD. You are not the only people who have a voice, ok? People don't want to see Garrus come onto Shepard. If s/s romances have to exist with old characters, they have to exist exclusively to Shepard initiating the content. That way people who are offended by homosexual romance don't EVER have to see that content, but people who are FOR homosexual romance can choose to pursue it. Mass Effect is a game of choices, not a game that forces a choice.

[quote]
In accordance with Category One here. Some people don't want Straight Content either; people who dont like romances in games, and people who find breedermancing a bit ick (which is just as prejudice and unfair and
wrong as the flip side).
Perhaps BW should just strip the whole lot out to avoid offending prejudice idiots everywhere then? Perhaps they should cut all black characters and all ethnic content from the game too so they dont offend the KKK?
[/quote]

If you seriously believe this is the same thing as race or skin colour, I cannot help you. Your belief is too firmly rooted on the fact that "If you don't want to see gay content, you're a homophobe!".

[Rinji the Bearded]

Gay content is being added whether people want it or no, we just don't know what that content is yet. What are we arguing about again?

[Roachbugg]

whether its chicken or sea bass for dinner.

[Russalka]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Gay content is being added whether people want it or no, we just don't know what that content is yet. What are we arguing about again?

Who looks the hottest in the nude, and deciding by that who we want to be the gay person.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Roachbugg wrote...

whether its chicken or sea bass for dinner.

Well I want chicken, but I'm completely open for sea bass as an optional dish for those who don't like chicken.

[Massadonious1]

I think we already decided on King Zeel.

[ipgd]

Russalka wrote...

Who looks the hottest in the nude, and deciding by that who we want to be the gay person.

I would not be opposed to a reveal that Miranda really has a schlong. I mean, she's infertile, right?

ME2 Shepards who romanced her were just open minded.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Massadonious1 wrote...

I think we already decided on King Zeel.

I look hotter than King Zeel in the nude, what.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 28 juin 2011 - 01:44 .

[ScotGaymer]

@Bocks.

I am sorry you dont understand where I am coming from.

I explained why i dont agree with you in the subsequent paragraph so it makes little sense to respond to that particular sentence seperately as if I hadn't.
Additionally you are not against gay content, are you? So I wasnt really including you in the Against Gay Content crowd since you patently arent.

Although if you arent against gay content why are you complaining about it exactly? That is the only thing that i dont follow about your posts.

I get why you dont went Kaidan/Jack/Whoever to be made bisexual because you feel it would be a retcon and you feel all those characters are established straight.
I dont agree because nowhere did any of them say they were straight at any point, even Jack's version is up for interpretation because depending on your perspective and how you took it really changes what it means.

To me it definately seemed like Kaidan was subtly flirting with MaleShep in ME1 during many occassions; as I said to someone else clearly perspective matters in these things.

We should be careful about talking about our own perspective and viewpoint as hard cold facts; which they arent.

I never said people who dont want gay content are homophobic. I said they generally come under two categories; and the vast majority of gamers are in the first category.
I am sorry if I seemed like I was dismissing everyone as a homophobe.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 28 juin 2011 - 01:49 .

[ElitePinecone]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Gay content is being added whether people want it or no, we just don't know what that content is yet. What are we arguing about again?

I've actually forgotten what this thread is, what we're arguing about and all of the 24 pages I just read. 

[Bocks]

VirtualStranger wrote...

Then why complain about the old LIs being bi? It seems to me like you should be campaining for the writing not to suck, instead.

Because their characters have already been established. i've said this a thousand times.

When has that ever been an acceptable justification for anything?

It's been an acceptable justification because the number of gay people in the world is vastly overshadowed by the number of heterosexual people. You can believe what you want, but Bioware are trying to make as much money as possible here, and the biggest market is with the heterosexual teenager.

So why do you deserve to be exempt from being forced to see content that contradicts your preferences, but gay people aren't afforded that same exemption? I don't see you complainig about the asari consort, Shiala, Gianna Parasini and Harkin. What about Ashley and Liara, where not only do they initiate the romantic interaction with you just for being nice to them, but you can accidentally be forced into their romances? What about Jacob, who femShep is forced to flirt with if they want to even talk to him? What about Tali, who starts making akward advances even though you've shown no interest in her? How about when Aria goes "you should find a nice woman to keep you company" and you're given no opportunity to correct her on it?

Where to begin. All the characters you listed are heterosexual and make advances on you because that's part of their personality. Liara and Ashley were a pain for Mansheps and Femsheps everywhere, don't think it's exclusive. Being nice shouldn't initiate a romance, but their advances on Shepard are part of their character. Femshep being forced to flirt with Jacob was just bad writing and bad acting. Tali was a poorly handled romance, and that is something I acknowledge if you bothered ro read a few posts back. And Aria just assumes you are heterosexual, because that's part of her character. Not being able to correct her on it is the fault of the writers.

I never said that, only that you need a better sense of perspective.

My perspective is fine, thank you very much. I know more about my life than you do.

No. Only that you won't see things from their point of view.

I see things from their point of view just fine. They are discriminated against and live in a society that doesn't accept homosexuality with ease.

1st: Stop being so melodramatic.

2nd: So? Experiencing
discrimination first-hand is not a magic "get out of prejudice free"
card. The rampant homophobia in the black community is evidence of that.

Supporting
gay people doesn't mean you understand their viewpoint.

1 - How am I being Melodramatic? I'm showing that I am not as blind to the world as you may believe.
2 - I never said it was. I know what they have to go through in our society, and I know how they are discriminated against.

Homosexuality is a lifestyle now? I'm sorry, but I can't hear this line
without imagining it coming out of the mouth of some republican governer
from Mississippi. That is their rhetoric, after all.

Regardless
of the false notion that homosexuality is somehow a "lifestyle," What
gives you the right to never have to be confronted with something that
is a fact of life? Gay people don't seem to have that right.

I was tired, I couldn't think of a better term to describe it than lifestyle, ok? I'm sorry.

And why do you find it uncomfortable? And why do you have a right to
not be made "uncomfortabe"? I'm sure a lot of gay people find being
forced to see straight content in their game "uncomfortable" yet they
deal with it anyway. Why can't you? Mind you, straight content shows up
EVERYWHERE, yet you're complaining about one little conversation that
let's you let them know that you're not interested.

You don't
even wan't to have to see it? not participate in it, mind you, but just
see it. Don't you think that's a little demanding? Why would having
a character turn out to be bisexual completely change your perspective
on them? It's not like anyone is FORCING you to romance them.

That's because homosexuals are accustomed to seeing heterosexual romance in society, because for many people it is normal. I'm not used to seeing two men kissing each other, but I don't reject it.

Again, you're misinterpreting what I said. What I was proposing would be a way to make both heterosexuals and homosexuals okay with the game. If Garrus was a new character in ME3, then him coming onto you would be fine, but that's just it. Garrus isn't a new character. His personality has been established. It's too late to change that. IF some people want a homosexual romance with him, fine, but I don't ever want to have to see it in my game. I'm fine with James Vega coming onto me, but if he had been in Mass Effect 2 and never mentioned anything that could be interpreted as him being bisexual or gay, then I would be against having him come onto Shepard in ME3.

No one has said anything about you being forced to participate in a
s/s romance in your game.

Did you even read that link? I thought
it would help you gain some insight. Maybe I thought it would help you
realize that what you're complaining about (being confronted with
someone else's sexual preference) is an everyday occurance for gay
people. That maybe they have far more of a reason to complain than you
do.

And that, my friend, is one of the many wonderful priviledges
being straight has bestowed upon you.

The issue is NOT participating in s/s romance. It's seeing characters that I have thought to be my best friends (Garrus, Kaidan, Joker) suddenly coming onto me, instead of Shepard asking THEM. Homosexuals aren't the only voice in Mass Effect by a long shot, and these threads are proof of that.

You don't seem to be understand the main issue here, so let me repeat it;
I am NOT against characters coming onto you in ME3, as long as these characters we are talking about are NEW.
Otherwise, Shepard has to initiate s/s romance with previous members of his crew, so as people who have a clear image of the characters as heterosexuals are never forced into seeing gay content.

Stop thinking that I'm blinded because I'm not gay or because I "dont understand gay people". I have travelled the world and have many different perspectives, more than you may realise.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Bocks wrote...
]The issue is NOT participating in s/s romance. It's seeing characters that I have thought to be my best friends (Garrus, Kaidan, Joker) suddenly coming onto me, instead of Shepard asking THEM. Homosexuals aren't the only voice in Mass Effect by a long shot, and these threads are proof of that.

You don't seem to be understand the main issue here, so let me repeat it;
I am NOT against characters coming onto you in ME3, as long as these characters we are talking about are NEW.
Otherwise, Shepard has to initiate s/s romance with previous members of his crew, so as people who have a clear image of the characters as heterosexuals are never forced into seeing gay content.

Stop thinking that I'm blinded because I'm not gay or because I "dont understand gay people". I have travelled the world and have many different perspectives, more than you may realise.

You will not be forced into a homosexual encounter with your teammates.   Stop being so paranoid, you might enjoy life a little better.

[Roachbugg]

parinoia is evil look what it did to poor stalin.

[skcih-deraj]

Bocks wrote...


Edit: Due to repeated attacks and accusations against me, I am here to say that I DO support s/s romances UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.

Sell out much? You took a stand stick with it, if its one thing I cannot stand is a backpeddler! I say defend your self don't compromise your opinion.

*2 cents added*