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For those of you who believe that Anders' actions were justified...


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#1
River5

River5
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Basically, I've been arguing Anders' side in what happened at the end of Act III
for so long, with so many different (and intelligent) people that, at
some point, I ended up putting most of my arguments into a single
document that I now like to call:  "My manifesto of Anders"  ;)

It keeps changing and evolving as new debates arises...  So, for those of you Anders fans (and/or non fans) that are patient
enough to try to read it, I was wondering if there are some topics that I
forgot and that you think it should cover... Something important that
I'm utterly missing... Etc.

I also have to say congratulation to the writers' team at Bioware for creating a character that I feel so passionately about.  I don't think I would ever have had the patience to do that for anyone else! Lol!

So anyway, here goes...

Part 1, The Chantrys (white and black) in Thedas:

While playing
DAO and DA2, my perception of the Chantrys (both of them) has always
been that they are a dangerous organization controlling people through
fear, trying to give the population a false sense of safety and control
in order to remain in power and justify their activities.

In
most of Thedas, if you refuse to submit to the teachings and rules of
the Chantry, you are branded an apostate... If you help apostates, you
can be executed. Even Grand Cleric Elthina admitted that killing
innocent lives has never stopped the Chantry from going on Exalted
Marches to defend "the Faith" (when she asks you to go speak with Sister
Nightingale).

In Tevinter, the Magisters rule the Imperium
THROUGH the Black Chantry.  It's also the Chantry in Tevinter that gives
the Magisters their social and political powers, not the other way
around! They have their own interpretation of the Chant of Light
(especially the line: "Magic exists to serve mankind, not to rule over
him"), and use that to justify their own activities.

Once again,
the Magisters have the "Maker given right" to rule the Imperium as they
see fit, because their actions are sanctioned by the Maker, and the
general population that believe in what their own Chantry is teaching
them. The people in Tevinter follow the teachings of Andraste, just like
anywhere else. They are simply at odds with how the Divine interprets
those teachings, and refuse to accept her authority.

Even Orana,
though she is a slave, didn't realize there was anything wrong with her
predicament. You tend to accept the world in the way that it is
presented to you. Believe that what you have been taught is the natural
order of things. Sometimes, people take a step back to observe the
situation in its ensemble, and realize that there's something wrong.
Fenris eventually did in Tevinter… Anders also did in Thedas.

Children
that are beaten and mistreated sometimes still see their parents as
being inherently good, and doing what is best for them. They see them as
protectors, even as they fear what they can do.

And when they
realize that their parents aren't the "gods" they were always lead to
believe them to be… That their rights and needs have been baffled, and
that they didn't deserve (nor were responsible for) any of this… The
main emotion that usually arises is anger. And I think both Fenris and
Anders have that in spades!

Whether it's the "Black Divine", or
the Divine from Orlais, both have equally abusive practices. The
Tevinter Imperium is not a good example of "what mages would do if they
were free"... It's a good example of "how, once again, religious
teachings can be twisted to serve the powerful, and justify their
actions".

Whether the mages are locked up in towers while the
"good folks" are allowed to control them; or the Magisters are at the
head of the Chantry and controlling the "good folks", ultimately, the
situation is the same... One group is enslaving another.

The
Chantrys, both of them, must lose their hold on the world if Thedas is
ever to fairly and effectively regulate the use of magic, and find a way
for mages and "non-magical citizens" to coexist peacefully.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that either Chantrys are willing to
relinquish their hold on the world without a fight.


Part 2, The Circle of Magi:

The
Circle of Magi was created on the assumption that mages' powers are, by
nature, abusive (a vision widely spread by the Chantry).

It's a
bit like that whole situation in the X-men movies. People fear those
that are different, and naturally see them as potential threats. The
Chantry feeds on that fear and uses it as a mean of control for both the
general public, and the mages. The "security" they offer allows them to
remain in power.

But it's a false sense of security. I don't
believe that the mages would be any more dangerous if they were allowed
to live within the general population, with laws protecting both sides.

For
example, when their powers manifest, young mages could be immediately
assigned as apprentices to a master that would teach them how to use and
control their powers.

Circles of Magi could be converted as a teaching institution, instead of prisons.
Laws could be put in place to regulate the use of magic, and people could be assigned to enforce them.

Most
mages will turn to blood magic as an act of despair. Remove the source
of despair, and you prevent losing so many mages to the dark side of
their powers.

If you allow them to live normal lives among
people... To love, have dreams and projects to fulfill, live with their
families, etc. Would they need any more reason to revolt?

Some
will always do. Just like some non-magical people will turn to crime.
But do we have the right to punish the innocent because of what he
*might* become? It makes no sense to me.

Freedom for the mages
does not mean them being allowed to do whatever they want with their
powers! And this isn't what Anders is advocating for either.

Freedom
for the mages is basically allowing them to share the same rights as
any other individuals. People who don't have magic must also abide by
certain laws. It should be no different for them. After all, if it isn't
right to kill a person using a spear, or control them through
extortion, it shouldn't be any more right to do so through the use of
magic.

I see no reasons why mages should be prevented to come
and go as they please. Making apprenticeship mandatory for all mages
(and keeping records) is one thing. But locking them up and taking their
families/lives/minds/dreams away from them is another entirely.

Also,
the definition of what an apostate or maleficar is seems very
subjective, and is too open to interpretation.  Especially when the
people in charge of "policing" said apostates or maleficars are
motivated by religious fervor and beliefs!

As for people arguing
that the Circles also protect mages from the general population; if
there were some severe laws against committing hate crimes against
mages, they would be protected from the population just as well.

Segregation
doesn't seem like a viable solution at all.  Keeping people locked away
from each other while allowing the fear/hate to spread is definitely
wrong.

Having mages become terrified of what "normal folks"
could do to them… While "normal folks" are petrified of those wielding
magic is not helping create a better world.
You just end up having
two groups that are completely unable to come to any understanding, and
that will stop caring about what they do to each other.

Blood
magic is fast, easy, and available. From my understanding, there is no
real need to learn the skill, only be willing to make deals with demons.


Perhaps if mages were taught to CARE about the world outside of
the tower, and felt some sense of connection, belonging to it, they
wouldn't be so quick to give in to temptation to protect themselves.  I
remember Anders mentioning that the most common way for mages to die is
by their own hand.

If they stop caring about their own existence,
then why should they care about people that show them no sign of mercy?
Who sit idly in their homes while they are being made Tranquil, and
allowed to suffer?

Not all mages are good people either. Some
hunger for power, just like any regular person could hunger for power.
Some can be cruel, and vile. They aren't ALL innocents… But should
innocents be allowed to suffer because of the few? I don't see it.

As
for the risk of having abominations running free on the streets, and
mages automatically seizing power and wanting to control/destroy the
world if they weren't controlled by Templars and Circles, that
assumption seems a bit ludicrous.

To quote a user named
MathiasAmon on the Dragon Age wiki: "The idea that all mages, freed from
their fetters, would attempt to take over the world, is also
ridiculous. Mages are individuals, not a hive-mind. Where one may want
to make the mundanes cower in terror and worship him while he shoots
lightning out of his fingers, another may want to use his gifts to
better the lives of his fellow man. A third might feel a moral
obligation to use his powers to protect people from mages like the
first."

And, look at that, the Tevinter Imperium has no
"abominations running amuck on the streets" problem. How strange… They
have Magisters competing with each others for power and social status,
and policies that allow slavery to exist on their lands, but the
Imperium hasn't been overtaken by demons. How can it be? It goes against
everything that the white Chantry would like you to believe, doesn't
it?

It makes me sick that one could condone treating sentient
beings like "regulating a dangerous substance" instead of what they are,
PEOPLE.

People who have dreams, emotions, needs, families,
friends... Who love... People that have the possibility to make right or
wrong choices just like anyone else. People who should share the same
rights as the rest of their society.

Mages are stripped of all
rights, including the right of expression (those who oppose the Chantry
too strongly are made Tranquil), and their lives are stolen from them.
I
can't lose sight of that, and start seeing them as "weapons" without
feeling like I'd have to sacrifice my own humanity in the process.


Part 3, The impact of Anders/Justice action:

Anders
has never been seeking power for himself, nor trying to enslave anyone.
He's only trying to inspire people to stand up to the Chantry, and not
cower in fear. He's not an out of control abomination going around
killing thousands, and thousands of people. He blew up one Chantry (that
was already starting a slow genocide through their Templars) to ignite a
(much needed) revolution that will probably save thousands of lives in
the long run.

The Chantry began a war long ago when they created
the Circles, and went on Exalted Marches (slaughtering thousands of
innocent people refusing to submit to them) in order to protect "the
Faith". They are a conquering military force, not a peaceful institution
promoting free-will, and voluntary adhesion to their beliefs.

"Peace"
was, unfortunately, never an option. At least, not in Kirkwall (there
would have been hope in Ferelden, I think…  Especially if Alistair was
elected king, and more so if the Warden happened to be a mage, and the
Circle was granted its independence). For negotiations to occur, both
parties have to be willing to negotiate (i.e. feel that there is
something for them to gain by negotiating).

Thus, since the
Chantry already holds absolute power in Kirkwall, and have the "Maker
given right" to silence anyone opposing them, I wonder just how much
"negotiating" they would have been willing to consider.

The
problem in Kirkwall is that there is no room for diplomacy, or
democracy. People are living under a totalitarian society where there is
simply no higher power to appeal to (since the Viscount is dead, and
Meredith won't let anyone who doesn't serve her interests replace him),
and the people in the city are taken hostage (helping apostates being a
hanging offense).

A friend once wrote: "If any government ever
violates your inalienable individual rights to that degree, and leaves
no way to change it through "democracy", then it is morally right and
just to resort to violence to oppose it. It's on the government's head
for forcing you into a situation where that was the only way to regain
your freedom again."

And sadly, that's pretty much the way I
feel about Kirkwall. People opposing what Meredith is doing have no real
leverage. They can talk all they want, she's not willing to listen, and
besides Elthina (who refuses to act), no one has the "power" to make
her listen!

"Peaceful resistance" implies that you have to find a
"non-violent way" to put the oppressors in a situation where they are
forced to negotiate in order to protect their own interests.  The target
of such non-violent resistance movement can be economical, political,
etc.  But you ALWAYS need some form of leverage.

What Anders did
brought the Chantry on the brink of collapse, and made them lose control
not only over their Circles, but their Templars as well (one of their
main military orders, and perhaps the most influential one)!!!

They
are now losing power, they know it, and thus are sending Seekers to
track down the only person (the Champion) that they believe have the
influence required to help them avoid to lose everything!

The Chantry is forced to listen now if they want to protect their interests.

Since
the end of the game, I have been racking my brain trying to find a
single "non-violent mean" that Anders could have taken in order to
destabilize the Chantry's hold on the world hard enough so that they
would have been given no other choice than to capitulate.

Convince
the dwarves to stop providing lyrium to the Chantry for their Templars
until it would be willing to renegotiate the terms under which mages are
living?  Dwarves are merchants, they don't have mages among them, and
most of them certainly don't care what's happening with humans and elves
topside.  So no, that wouldn't work…

What else?  It's all good
and well to say that "Anders could have resorted to non-violent
means".  But how?  Please tell me how.  Perhaps if the Champion had
decided to get more involved, but I'll get back on that later.

While
Anders' solution was both shocking and horrifying, the very moment the
Chantry exploded, in my mind, Anders ceased to be just "Anders", but
became a symbol of every single person the Chantry has ever wronged…
Every single life they ever took away, or destroyed… Every single family
they tore apart… Every single freedom they have trampled with impunity…
Even going as far as claiming that they were righteous in doing so!

There's a scene at the end of the movie "V for Vendetta" where Evey's character is asked "who" V was… And she answers:

"He was my father, and my mother; my brother, my friend; he was you, and me; he was all of us…"

Anders embodies the countless Chantry's victims that, until then, had had no voices.
But
Anders is still a man… Despite being possessed by Justice, he still has
a conscience… And therefore he will probably keep paying all of his
life for what he did, as I don't believe that Anders could ever kill
anyone without being haunted by their memory. That is the "punishment"
from which there is no escape, the sacrifice he has made.

Still, that doesn't mean that I fully agree with the MEANS he took to achieve said revolution.

My
approach to the problem would have been to LEAVE KIRKWALL (in the very
beginning of Act III) and use my influence as Champion to gather allies
all across Thedas to try to "peacefully" oppose the Chantry, and force
them to step down. By keeping Anders actively working towards the
liberation of mages, instead of simply patting him on the back saying
"there there, I understand" while atrocities keep being committed
against his people all around him, I have this theory that it might have
helped him keep Justice in check.  Lol!

But no, I have to run
around the city aimlessly, while my spirit-possessed lover slowly looses
it and begins showing tell-tale signs of suicidal intent! Arrrg!

However,
given the limitations of the gameplay, and the very little support I
was able to provide Anders, I thought that him going after the ROOT of
the problem (the Chantry's control over the population) instead of
attacking the symptom (Meredith, the Templars, and/or the Circle) was
the smartest thing one could have done in an effort to bring some long
lasting change to the world.

As for why Anders attacked the
Chantry building as a whole, instead of directly targeting its higher
representative (Elthina)…  I believe that it all comes down to Meredith.

Somewhere
at the beginning of Act III, Meredith sends a demand for the Right of
Annulment from Val Royaux, since the Grand Cleric is refusing to take a
stance.  So it has been made clear by then that by the beginning of Act
III, Meredith seems to believe that the Circle of Kirkwall is beyond
saving, and that the only way to keep the general population safe from
mages is by annulling it.

Therefore, the only person in Kirkwall
that can prevent Meredith from declaring the Right of Annulment on the
Circle is the Divine herself, her direct representative (the Grand
Cleric), or another member of the Chantry that would temporarily take up
the mantle of Grand Cleric should Elthina be assassinated (until the
Divine officially appoints a new Grand Cleric).

If Meredith went
against the wishes of the Divine, Grand Cleric, or one of her
subordinates; she would be seen as moving against the Chantry itself…

To
give birth to his rebellion, Anders needed the mages to be pushed into a
"fight, flee, or die" situation.  As long as "some semblance of peace"
or collaboration between mages and Templars was kept, most mages would
be too scared to fight back if the Templars were promising them their
lives and "safety" in exchange for their submission.  The message from
the Templars has always been SUBMIT AND LIVE.

So, as long as the
choice existed for mages to "do whatever Templars want from us and they
won't kill us or make us tranquil", nothing was ever going to
change.  But, if the choice suddenly becomes: fight, run, or SUBMIT AND
DIE, then mages have no choice but to rebel, or be killed.  

Faced
with certain death, the mages that were too afraid to oppose the
Chantry's authority before (or simply felt comfortable living in the
Circles, and/or had faith in the Chantry's teachings, etc.) are now
forced to take action.

Therefore, by removing the Grand Cleric
AND the Chantry from the equation; and plunging Kirkwall into a state of
emergency; Anders has allowed Meredith to feel justified in deciding
that she has to act quickly to restore order without needing approval
from the Divine herself, and declare the Right of Annulment on the
Circle as an emergency measure.

By doing so, all the mages in
Kirkwall have no other choice than to rebel against the Templars and the
Chantry if they do not wish to be exterminated.  Therefore, allowing
Anders' plan to overthrow the Chantry to slowly take effect.

As
the other Circles get word of what happened in Kirkwall, they fear
retribution from their own Templars (or perhaps finally realize that
fighting back is a real option), and decide to break free from the
Chantry as well!

If Anders had attacked Meredith and the Templars
directly, Elthina, the "ever reasonable one", would have stepped up,
encouraged First Enchanter Orsino to keep the mages in the Kirkwall
Circle calm until a new Knight-Commander has been reassigned, and new
Templars troops arrive.

Meanwhile, she would have refused to
grant the surviving Templars the Right of Annulment on the Circle,
arguing that it was but the work of one profoundly disturbed apostate.

Result?
Status quo. The Circles still exist throughout Thedas. Templars still
have the mission to watch over the mages. The Chantry still remains in
power and are free to spread their teachings (that mages are dangerous;
can't be allowed to live with the rest of the population, have children
of their own, or stay with their parents as kids, etc.). The mages still
have no rights (other than to submit to Chantry authority and live
among themselves in gilded cages, allowed to come out of them only with
authorization from the Chantry's appointed representatives, a.k.a. the
Knight-Commanders and First Enchanters)…

Likewise, if Meredith
had calmly reacted and gone "Quick, send word to the Divine that the
Grand Cleric has been slain by an apostate, and the Chantry building
destroyed.  Ask her to send us someone to take on her duties until a new
Grand Cleric has been officially appointed, and additional Templar
troops arrive to replace those that were lost.  Meanwhile, I would like
to ask for the help of the City Guards in order to make a threat
assessment, and investigate whether Anders was working alone, or
not.  If he had accomplices, rest assured that they shall be brought to
justice.  First Enchanter Orsino, I trust that you will do your best to
make sure that every mage in the Circle stays calm and is willing to
collaborate with us.  You have my word, as Knight-Commander, that we
will not blame the Circle for the action of a single troubled man.  I
suggest that the surviving sisters and brothers of the Chantry be housed
at the Viscount's keep until we find new housing arrangements for them
until a new Chantry has been built..."

Well, let's simply say
that Anders' plans would have utterly failed, and I'm pretty convinced
he would never have attempted something as extreme as blowing up the
Chantry in the first place if he'd thought that the Knight-Commander
would take such a practical, diplomatic approach.

Ironically,
Meredith was Anders' greatest ally in making sure that the mages
rebellion against the Templars and the Chantry would occur.  She was the
key to the rebellion, and Anders played her like a fiddle.

They both provided to each other exactly what the other wanted.

Meredith: A chance to rid Kirkwall of the mages menace.
Anders: A mages rebellion against the Templars and the Chantry.

Still,
in the end, Anders (alive or dead) is the only one that truly got his
wish...  So, I still see Meredith as being the one who really ended up
being played.


Part 4, About letting Anders live, or becoming his executioner:

Fenris
told me that he had slaughtered a whole clan of people that had saved
his life, and protected him from his former master… And I didn't kill
him for his crimes. Sten killed an entire family of farmers because he
had misplaced his sword, and we still became friends… Zevran was an
assassin (he even admitted that sometimes, innocent people get in the
way), and I've even dated him! Leliana's past as a bard also covers a
lot of killing!

I don't believe in the death penalty, and
killing Anders made no sense to me (especially within that context).
This would be pure vengeance.

My rationale for letting him live
and siding with him had more to do with the fact that since he started
this, he might as well face the consequences, good and bad, or his
actions; and be given a chance to learn and evolve through these
experiences.

He expected and even wanted to die, and I denied
him the easy way out. Not as a punishment, but because he should take
responsibility for his actions. Also, I can't strike him down and deny
him a shot at redemption… Especially not after having been so forgiving
to anyone else! Despite everything, I still believe in Anders, and in
what he stands for. He has so much potential, and is probably one of the
most gentle and compassionate characters of the Dragon Age Universe.

I'm
more worried about him losing himself to Justice though… Especially
after having watched him all but give up on himself. The way he keeps
blaming himself for what happened to Justice, and says that besides the
cause of the mages, there's nothing left of him, broke my heart.

So
yes, I actually *have* considered killing Anders for a minute there,
but only to free them both (thus, not using death as a "penalty", but as
an act of mercy). What stopped me completely are the dialogue options
("You have to pay for what you've done"), and the stabbing in the back
sequence.

There is no "I love you, and I understand… As much as I
don't want to lose you, I am willing to let you and Justice be free, if
you believe there is really no other way for you to learn to live with
each other, and that is what you would ask of me…" option, or something
similar.

Sebastian's reaction was also a factor in this… The
Chantry and the Templars started the war… Anders retaliated by igniting a
revolution… The cycle of violence and retribution has to stop
somewhere. So I'm sorry Sebastian, but I'm not going to give in, and
kill Anders out of anger just to give you satisfaction. Killing him is
not justice, and Vengeance has done enough damage as it is.

I'm a
bit disappointed to see so many players claim that "Anders has to die
for what he did!", and go on and on about how he has "betrayed their
trust", and therefore, he has to pay!

It almost seems like the
morally reprehensible choices that our companions make are easier to
accept when they are happening completely outside of our control, or
"authority"… Or then again, have happened in the past (implying that the
character has changed, evolved, seen the errors of his ways and
redeemed himself since then).

It's as if we have gotten so used
to being able to directly influence our companions in any given
situation that when one does something that completely goes against our
own goals/actions/intents, we are completely shocked! Lol! And angry!

Had
the destruction of the Chantry happened 2 years prior to meeting
Anders, and he'd casually told us about it in conversation, I bet most
of us would have gone "Don't blame yourself Anders… I understand how
hard it must be for you to resist Justice… You didn't really have a
choice to ignore the situation back then, things got pretty out of hand…
Don't worry, we'll figure this out together…"

So, as far as I'm
concerned, not only will Anders live… But my Hawke will spend the rest
of his days helping him deal with his guilt, fight his revolution
(hopefully, through more diplomatic means than making every Chantry go
"boom"! Lol!), adapt to "life with a spirit within", and being crazy in
love (or BFF, whenever he isn't romanced!  Lol!) with his apostate!

#2
Abispa

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Wow. Your post is ALMOST as long as one of Morrigan's or Liliana's fire side stories.

#3
LobselVith8

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Pragmatically speaking, I'd imagine Anders would be more invested in the freedom of mages than Sebastian would, given how Sebastian supports the Circles of Magi and the Chantry of Andraste. I imagine Anders would try to help the mage resistance. Hopefully, a pro-mage Hawke will be allowed to be proactive in the mage revolution over the three years he spends after leaving Kirkwall, and I'd imagine Anders could be a useful ally. Perhaps the seers in the Kingdom of Rivain or the Tevinter mages would have answers for Anders current symbiosis with Justice.

#4
Sajuro

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good job!

#5
non-post

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This proves how radical the pro-mage group has become. I wonder what all you will do if you don't get absolute freedom for mages at the end of DA3?

Is the Chantry evil? No, it has just become too powerful and is in need of a Reformation. As for the Black Chantry, I thought the magisters wanted to keep their power? That is why they broke off from the White Chantry.

What were the reasons the mages were locked up in the first place? Is it because they are different or is it because from the actions of the magisters in the Tevinter Imperium?

How does Tevinter, Rivain, the Chasind, or the Dalish deal with abominations? Do we know or has that part of the story not been fleshed out yet? If it has, please tell me where so I can look it up.

How did the magisters gain control of Tevinter? Was because the first Archon talked to Dumat and learned blood magic or did the magisters already rule Tevinter? I don't think that has been fully fleshed out as well.

The point I'm getting at is, you and all other pro mages are putting modern rights and freedoms on a fictious world that has no inkling to "the Rights of Men". There is no Magna Carta or an Iroquois Constitution written. I haved played both sides in DA2 and I have found them both to be fully justified. Neither one of them was with a selfish player. Anders will always die in my playthroughs, because I don't see justification in his actions.

#6
Foolsfolly

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How does Tevinter, Rivain, the Chasind, or the Dalish deal with abominations? Do we know or has that part of the story not been fleshed out yet? If it has, please tell me where so I can look it up.


Why is that not mentioned? When the storyline deals with "DOWN WITH THE SYSTEM" why isn't anyone (other than Fenris) asking what the new system would be? What would it be based on? What's a good alternative?

#7
keekee53

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I totally disagree with what Anders did to the Chantry. I do not think killing him was the answer though. I think I killed him in one of my playthroughs for story purposes. He felt that is what he needed to do to free mages and if this goes south mages could end up in worse than before. It was paranoid thinking that made him blow up the Chantry.

Honestly, I was disappointed in most of my companions, so how can I hold Anders responsible. Isabela runs off with the book which started a war where people died, Merril and the obsession with the mirror killed the keeper and possibly the whole elven village, Anders blowing up the chantry and Fenris complaining about mages and sadly he was RIGHT. Every mage I helped back stabbed me. Thank goodness for Varric who kept things light.

Modifié par keekee53, 28 juin 2011 - 06:00 .


#8
Foolsfolly

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"Every mage I helped back stabbed me."

No good deed towards a mage goes unpunished.

#9
LobselVith8

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keekee53 wrote...

I totally disagree with what Anders did to the Chantry. I do not think killing him was the answer though. I think I killed him in one of my playthroughs for story purposes. He felt that is what he needed to do to free mages and if this goes south mages could end up in worse than before. It was paranoid thinking that made him blow up the Chantry.


I don't see how it was paranoid thinking. The Chantry has controlled the lives of mages across the continent for nearly a millennia, and Anders wanted to emancipate the mages in Thedas. Right or wrong, Anders wasn't the only one who saw the Chantry controlled Circles as a problem. The issue is that the storyline where the idiot ball was firmly placed in the hands of templars and mages alike.

keekee53 wrote...

Honestly, I was disappointed in most of my companions, so how can I hold Anders responsible. Isabela runs off with the book which started a war where people died, Merril and the obsession with the mirror killed the keeper and possibly the whole elven village, Anders blowing up the chantry and Fenris complaining about mages and sadly he was RIGHT. Every mage I helped back stabbed me. Thank goodness for Varric who kept things light.


The Keeper Marethari died because she brought a demon into her body, and the clan tried to kill Merrill and Hawke in cold blooded murder; they committed suicide by Hawke. And you think Fenris was right? You know the argument that convinces Fenris to side with Hawke and the mages is one where Hawke calls the Chantry controlled Circles slavery, right?

#10
Plaintiff

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non-post wrote...

This proves how radical the pro-mage group has become. I wonder what all you will do if you don't get absolute freedom for mages at the end of DA3?

Because everyone knows an individual accurately represents an entire group. All black people are muggers, too.

Is the Chantry evil? No, it has just become too powerful and is in need of a Reformation. As for the Black Chantry, I thought the magisters wanted to keep their power? That is why they broke off from the White Chantry.

The Chantry is responsible for thousands of years worth of abuses, and not just against mages but other groups as well. If that's not evil, then what is? The actions of the Black Chantry do not excuse the actions of the White Chantry.

What were the reasons the mages were locked up in the first place? Is it because they are different or is it because from the actions of the magisters in the Tevinter Imperium?

The evils of the Tevinter Imperium are utterly irrelevent to the situation. The mages being persecuted are not part of the Tevinter Imperium and have not been for centuries at least.

How does Tevinter, Rivain, the Chasind, or the Dalish deal with abominations? Do we know or has that part of the story not been fleshed out yet? If it has, please tell me where so I can look it up.

Also irrelevent, killing abominations is not the same as the unwarranted imprisonment of innocent people.

How did the magisters gain control of Tevinter? Was because the first Archon talked to Dumat and learned blood magic or did the magisters already rule Tevinter? I don't think that has been fully fleshed out as well.

Also irrelevent. The origins of blood magic have nothing to do with anything, blood magic is not inherently evil andmost mages don't use it anyway.

The point I'm getting at is, you and all other pro mages are putting modern rights and freedoms on a fictious world that has no inkling to "the Rights of Men". There is no Magna Carta or an Iroquois Constitution written.

Your point being? The Dragon Age games were made for contemporary audiences, and draw inspiration from contemporary issues present in our media. They expect us to apply the laws and morals of our own society in order to form an opinion. Being a primitive society doesn't excuse ignorance and bigotry. Just because Thedas works a particular way doesn't make it right, people are allowed their own views on how it should be.

#11
Aetika

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non-post wrote...

This proves how radical the pro-mage group has become. I wonder what all you will do if you don't get absolute freedom for mages at the end of DA3?


I certainly hope we will be able to get absolute freedom for mages. So I will be pretty annoyed, if the best we get will be some Chantry v. 2.
I am so radical...I want freedom.

#12
non-post

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Plaintiff wrote...
Because everyone knows an individual accurately represents an entire group. All black people are muggers, too.


Don't compare it with branding a race, this is more political than anything else.

The Chantry is responsible for thousands of years worth of abuses, and not just against mages but other groups as well. If that's not evil, then what is? The actions of the Black Chantry do not excuse the actions of the White Chantry.


The abuses of the Chantry are to the mages because of the dangers of magic. Do they take it too far? Yes, I'll agree with that. As for the other abuses, I believe you are talking about the Exalted Marches. Only one, against the Dalish, would be considered an abuse.

The magisters in the Tevinter Imperium used the Chantry name to retain their power. Not the Chantry using the magisters to retain theirs.

The evils of the Tevinter Imperium are utterly irrelevent to the situation. The mages being persecuted are not part of the Tevinter Imperium and have not been for centuries at least.


No it is not, it is the basis for everything. From the rise of Andrastee and the founding of the circles, to the current abuses of Blood Magic by the magisters. Real Thedan fears of what mages could do.

 
Also irrelevent, killing abominations is not the same as the unwarranted imprisonment of innocent people.


They are the examples given by the pro -mage group of peaceful coexistence with mages, witches, shaman, and keepers. The argument is always, "There are no abominations running amok at these places". Why hasn't what happened at these locations ever been mentioned? If nothing serious mage related ever happened at Tevinter, Rivain, with the Chasind, and the Dalish. The I'll throw my hat in with the pro-mage group.
.

Also irrelevent. The origins of blood magic have nothing to do with anything, blood magic is not inherently evil andmost mages don't use it anyway.


Yes, if your own mage is just slitting their wrist for a little extra mana, I would agree with you. But you also have the ability to syphon blood from your own companions. As with other abuses, when a magister can slaughter their own slaves for more spellpower, you see where the evil lies.

Your point being? The Dragon Age games were made for contemporary audiences, and draw inspiration from contemporary issues present in our media. They expect us to apply the laws and morals of our own society in order to form an opinion. Being a primitive society doesn't excuse ignorance and bigotry. Just because Thedas works a particular way doesn't make it right, people are allowed their own views on how it should be.


Because this is only a game and we are completely at the mercy of the writers. Getting bent out of shape over the injustices of the mages seems a little silly. In DA3, Gaider and company could decide if the mages win, then everyone lives happily ever after. Or if the templars win, then there is a wholesale slaughter of mages. After the mages defeat the templars, they could consolidate their power and decide to fill the vacuum of a broken Chantry by ruling Thedas again. Or there is a templar/mage truce and everything just returns to what it was. I don't think any of us will have a choice in the matter. 

#13
TEWR

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@OP excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly, as I always let Anders live (save for one playthrough where I experimented.).


....I really wish I could just slap Sebastian in that scene. Quick somebody make a Sebastian slapping mod!

#14
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*

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Even though I think his actions were justified, I don't think they were right. He's throwing the unprepared mages into a war they have little chance of winning and alienating whatever potential allies they might have been able to gather. I know Anders means well, but he's a damaging friend for the mages to have, not only by being exactly what people fear most about mages, but by repelling people from his cause and associating it with extremism.

#15
phyreblade74

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He's a terrorist. Even HE says what he's done is horrific and unjust. There is no justification for his actions.

#16
nightscrawl

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Aetika wrote...

So I will be pretty annoyed, if the best we get will be some Chantry v. 2.


Since the main religion in Thedas is following the Maker and the belief in His divine bride Andraste (what is the noun for that anyway? IE Christian/Andrastian so Christianity/ ??), I doubt the Chantry will be abolished entirely. Even if the current Chantry were to somehow be struck down, people would start organizing locally to continue worshiping. Also, I'm not big of religious organizations in general, but one thing they are good for in Thedas and in real life is community service. There are several examples in DAO especially of the local Chantry giving help to the poor and those fleeing the blight.

I tend to disagree with Fenris on a key issue regarding non-Tevinter mages: the culture surrounding magic is, and has always been, drastically different in the Imperium than elsewhere. He says himself that the "attitude toward magic is different in Tevinter," and that aristocratic families have nurtured magical talent for generations, but that is not the case in Ferelden or the Free Marches. So, I disagree with him that those regions could become another Tevinter Imperium, simply because the thought about magic in general (no blood magic or anything else, just normal magic) is vastly different.

Ideally, what they attempted to do in having the Imperium templars enforce the laws, and that ONLY, is what should happen. The templars should NOT be the military arm of the Chantry. Templars train in talents (powered by their use of lyrium) to weaken mages, therefore they are the ones best equipped to deal with mages who are out of control (Decimus, Tarohne, Uldred, etc). Really, it makes a great deal of sense that templars act as the "mage police". The problem we have right now is that their sense of duty regarding the mages comes from religious beliefs, which makes them zealots.

A final note regarding Anders specifically. In the end he was right. There had to be a drastic measure to set events in motion. Things may turn out well for mages in the end. They might not. One thing is for certain: thousands of people will die. I don't like him. I used to, but after seven or so plays he has slowly eroded any appreciation I had for his cause by his blind attitude. The ultimate for me is a line he says after Leandra's death. If you click on him while in party after her death he will say, "Your mother... I'm so sorry. I can't believe any mage would do such a thing." You may call it shock, or a genuine human reaction to it (which I could understand), but specifically mentioning mages there is the most revealing to me. Of all of the thing he has seen, he still believes that mages are only victims. That there are no, and can't possibly be, any mages who are simply crazy (like any non-mage), or who seek power (like any non-mage).

Other than an experimental play now that his rivalry ending has been fixed, I will kill him every time (no matter who I side with). And I am GLAD, so glad that the Champion's name is the one that becomes a rallying cry, and not his like he predicts before you murder knife him. Sorry Anders, no martyrdom for you.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 28 juin 2011 - 01:25 .


#17
Xalen

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Well, thank you, OP, for putting my thoughts into words, you certainly did it better then I ever could! :wizard:
Very good post indeed, I absolutely agree, especially with Part 3 - explaining why it had to be Chantry specifically. There's little attention paid to that in usual Anders debates.

#18
R0vena

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Well, it was very easy for me for the first time I played. I never liked Anders regardless of his actions in the end and I liked Sebastian just fine. It was a simple choosing between a companion I hated and companion I liked. No politics were involved in this decision.

That said, couple of times I intentionally played a very aggressive pro-mage Hawke with the views quite different from my own. This Hawke let Anders live, of course. They were best buddies.
My point being - letting Anders live or not depends on the character of Hawke more than anything else and I don't quite understand the arguments about was it right or wrong to kill him. It could be perfectly justified for one type of Hawke and absolutely unimaginable for the other.

Modifié par R0vena, 28 juin 2011 - 02:39 .


#19
River5

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non-post wrote...

This proves how radical the pro-mage group has become. I wonder what all you will do if you don't get absolute freedom for mages at the end of DA3?


Have we been advocating for "absolute freedom"?  All that most of us are hoping for is a reform allowing mages the same rights as any other man.  Like I said, if it isn't right to control your neighbor using extortion, than it shouldn't be any more right to do so with the use of magic.

You can easily have laws making magical training mandatory for all children as soon as their powers emerge.  You can even have registries and keep philacteries should you wish to do so.

Circles of Magi could become learning institutions (I'm refering to the Circles of Magi as an organization responsible for keeping and teaching magic knowledge and history, not necessarily the building)...  Enchanters wishing to become masters to apprentices could need to be accredited and their training program approved by the Circles before being allowed to teach, etc.

The mages need to be taught to become accountable and responsible for their powers, and how to use them.

But, you can't do that if a religion is still more powerful than the state, and keeps drilling into people's minds that magic is dangerous, mages cannot EVER be trusted, and that magic is not a gift, but a curse from the Maker.  That the only way for people to be safe is by segregating them.

Magic has it's dangers.  But is locking all mages up into a huge building, many of them who have possibly grown resentful towards the Chantry and perhaps even the outside world, a good solution?  Of course, put all the powerful, potentially pissed-off guys in the same building where they can feed off each other's anger, and eventually snap!

Then, if they do, call the Right of Annullement and wipe out all of said building's inhabitants (innocents and guilty alike) wondering how you wounded up with abominations in there in the first place.

Guys like Uldred don't even need to make the effort to go out and try to recruit other mages like him.  He's surrounded by desperate, frustrated and unsocialized mages!  Yay!  Jack pot!

Anders says things like "It is not ruling to simply wish for the same rights as any man"...  Or "we can stop pretending that the Circle is a solution"...  Or even, in romance, "Some day, someone like me will love someone like you, and there will be no Templars to tear them apart.  That's the freedom I'm fighting for".

I've never, ever heard Anders go "Whoohoohoo!  We must have absolute freedom without any form of regulation!"

No, all he wants and all that most of us that agree with him want is the right for mages to live among people and be allowed to love, have children, raise families, get a job or join the king's service shall they wish to!

Share equal rights and oportunities but still respect the rules.

Is the Chantry evil? No, it has just become too powerful and is in need of a Reformation. As for the Black Chantry, I thought the magisters wanted to keep their power? That is why they broke off from the White Chantry.


Exactly.  But for the Orlesian Chantry to agree to a reform, they need to feel that they HAVE to go through said reform, or else lose something important.  If no one ever opposes the power that they have, then why should they ever be tempted to give up such power, and even remotely consider changing their ways?

Having Alistair threaten to have his nation break free from the Orlesian Chantry and start following their own should they refuse to negociate the terms under which mages are living could be a "peaceful" and positive way to bring up change.

Unless the Chantry decides to call for an Exalted March on Ferelden...  So yes, when Alistair said that they weren't exactly at their strongest right now, having had a Blight to contend with, he was being pretty smart about it.  He never said that he disagreed with Anders that the Circles in his kingdom should be removed from Templars (a military arm of the Chantry) oversight.  He just answered that it was easier said than done, and that he didn't feel that he had the appropriate resources to go for that right now.

But to opposed the Chantry peacefully and get them to agree to a reform, you need some serious effective leverage.  You need either to be more powerful than them, or threaten to make them lose power.  Hit them where it hurts.

The Magisters wanted to keep their powers, remain in control of the way magic is used on their lands, and separated from the Divine, forming the Black Chantry.  Just like those responsible for creating the White Chantry wanted to be in control of the way magic was used on their lands.

The Tevinters are Andrastians who follow the Chant of Light, but give their own interpretation of the Chant that favors the Magisters.

The Orlesian Chantry are Andrastians who follow the Chant of Light, but give their own interpretation of the Chant that allows them complete control and oversight over magic.

Both Chantrys originated from the same source, they just chose two different approaches according to their political and social structure at the time.

The only way a mage can leave the Circle, is if the Chantry (the First Enchanter and/or the Knight-Commander, that are both agents of the Chantry) gives them permission.  They are allowed to use their magic only if it is in order to serve the Chantry's interests.

So, do you really believe that the Chantry is sincerely keeping mages locked away as a measure of safety for the population...  Or perhaps, just perhaps, having all that raw power for them to use as they see fit seems just little too tempting and convenient to be willing to give up?

What were the reasons the mages were locked up in the first place? Is it because they are different or is it because from the actions of the magisters in the Tevinter Imperium?

How does Tevinter, Rivain, the Chasind, or the Dalish deal with abominations? Do we know or has that part of the story not been fleshed out yet? If it has, please tell me where so I can look it up.


Merrill did mention that when one of their mages turn into an abomination, the rest of the clan hunts him or her down.  For the other, I can't remember it having been specifically adressed.  I suppose they take care of it, one way or another.

How did the magisters gain control of Tevinter? Was because the first Archon talked to Dumat and learned blood magic or did the magisters already rule Tevinter? I don't think that has been fully fleshed out as well.

The point I'm getting at is, you and all other pro mages are putting modern rights and freedoms on a fictious world that has no inkling to "the Rights of Men". There is no Magna Carta or an Iroquois Constitution written. I haved played both sides in DA2 and I have found them both to be fully justified. Neither one of them was with a selfish player. Anders will always die in my playthroughs, because I don't see justification in his actions.


And what if that's exactly what we players will become privy to?  The "Chart of Human Rights" of our modern world wasn't always there.  To acquire it, some people needed to have dreamt it, and fought for it.  Using violence if necessary.

So what if Anders is such a dreamer?  What if he see the world not as it is, but as it could be?

What if most pro-mages simply allow themselves to share his dream, and wish for Thedas to move closer and closer to an ideal?

What if, confronted with the horrors and inequalities of the Dragon Ages (that includes the way elves are treated, the Caste system in Orzammar, the slavery in Tevinter), some of us are wishing for changes...  And hoping that we will become witnesses to such changes?

Perhaps we see change coming to Thedas as a good thing, and are willing to take the leap!  ;)

#20
River5

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[quote]
[quote] 
Also irrelevent, killing abominations is not the same as the unwarranted imprisonment of innocent people.
[/quote]

They are the examples given by the pro -mage group of peaceful coexistence with mages, witches, shaman, and keepers. The argument is always, "There are no abominations running amok at these places". Why hasn't what happened at these locations ever been mentioned? If nothing serious mage related ever happened at Tevinter, Rivain, with the Chasind, and the Dalish. The I'll throw my hat in with the pro-mage group.
[/quote]

Well, if no Templars or Chantry official has ever been responsible for the torture and/or death of innocent people, I'll throw my hat in with the pro-Templars group then!  ;)

I'm teasing you, because I know you are not "pro-Templars" per say, just considering that both sides are right and wrong on certain aspects.

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't take magic for people or a group of people to commit horrifying acts of violence against their fellow men.

I'm also thinking that, since theses civilisations are used to having magic around, they may be better equiped to know how to quickly and effectively deal with an abomination.  Especially if other mages are present when the situation arises, and can use their powers against the monster to contain it.

If I wanted to go against an abomination, I'd like to have someone who can cast "crushing prison", or at the very least an energy barrier, standing right by my side.

And, since mages aren't all gathered up in big buildings together, abominations might just be isolated incidents instead of mass slaughters (like what happened with Meredith's sister.  A young mage that was left untrained, and attacked a small village where people had no real means to defend themselves).

If the Circles of Magi allowed for mages to be trained without being taken away from their families, what reason would Meredith's parents have had to want to keep their daughter hidden from them?

It's either imprisonement, or the young mage and his/her family are left without any resources (unless they have an apostate father, like Malcom Hawke).

The best way to fight abominations is by seeking to reduce the factors leading to their occurences.  And then, making sure that if one appears, there are people out there who will be able to quickly destroy/contain them.

[quote]
[quote]
Your point being? The Dragon Age games were made for contemporary audiences, and draw inspiration from contemporary issues present in our media. They expect us to apply the laws and morals of our own society in order to form an opinion. Being a primitive society doesn't excuse ignorance and bigotry. Just because Thedas works a particular way doesn't make it right, people are allowed their own views on how it should be.[/quote]

Because this is only a game and we are completely at the mercy of the writers. Getting bent out of shape over the injustices of the mages seems a little silly. In DA3, Gaider and company could decide if the mages win, then everyone lives happily ever after. Or if the templars win, then there is a wholesale slaughter of mages. After the mages defeat the templars, they could consolidate their power and decide to fill the vacuum of a broken Chantry by ruling Thedas again. Or there is a templar/mage truce and everything just returns to what it was. I don't think any of us will have a choice in the matter. [/quote]
[/quote]

Well, it's thought provoking, and confronts us to our own beliefs, and values...  Takes us out of our comfort zone...  That's something you may not always expect from a computer game, but Dragon Age does a pretty good job at being provocative, and making us feel involved in that Universe.  I just love it!  :D

By the end of the day, it's still a game.  But it's interesting to be able to take a look at it from the outside and question people's motivations, think about how this or that problem could have been approached differently, etc.

I don't mind being at the mercy of the writers.  And I don't mind if what I would have loved to see happen (for example, the fall or the Orlesian Chantry) failed.  The best laid plans, even done with the purest of intentions, can always fail and lead to more tragedy (if you're a BTVS and Angel fan, you learn to get used to that concept VERY quickly!  Lol!).

Modifié par River5, 28 juin 2011 - 03:25 .


#21
LobselVith8

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non-post wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Because everyone knows an individual accurately represents an entire group. All black people are muggers, too.


Don't compare it with branding a race, this is more political than anything else.


It's not more political. Mages refer to themselves as a people. Even Circle mage Bethany asks a pro-templar Hawke not to make her choose between family and "her people."

#22
River5

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@OP excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly, as I always let Anders live (save for one playthrough where I experimented.).


....I really wish I could just slap Sebastian in that scene. Quick somebody make a Sebastian slapping mod!


Lol!  Agreed!  Slap Sebastian silly...  And punch Anders.  ;)

Don't get me wrong, I love Anders, and I fully understand and support his motives (don't even know why I still feel the need to mention this...  Lol!).

But my initial gut reaction was definitely to go "WTF?!?!?!   What-where-how--Anders-who-is- what-this-I-don't-even...  ARRRRRRRG!"

Having had an outlet for my shock, anger, and frustration towards Anders OTHER than winding up with a murder knife in my hand would have been much, much appreciated.

Thankfully, my Hawke chose to take a deep breath, and not let her emotions get the best of her.

Hawke: Arrrrrrg!  DAMNIT ANDERS!  I feel like I could kill you right now!
Anders: Well, here's the knife...
Hawke (stares blankly): Not literally, you blighted idiot!  Now, get off your emo-box and give me a hand with that revolution you just started...  We'll figure everything else later.  Let's go!"

#23
Aetika

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River5 wrote...

Circles of Magi could become learning institutions (I'm refering to the Circles of Magi as an organization responsible for keeping and teaching magic knowledge and history, not necessarily the building)...  Enchanters wishing to become masters to apprentices could need to be accredited and their training program approved by the Circles before being allowed to teach, etc.

No, all he wants and all that most of us that agree with him want is the right for mages to live among people and be allowed to love, have children, raise families, get a job or join the king's service shall they wish to!


Exactly this. This is what I had in my mind, when I said I hope we will have a chance to give mages absolute freedom.

River5 wrote...

But my initial gut reaction was definitely to go "WTF?!?!?!  
What-where-how--Anders-who-is- what-this-I-don't-even...  ARRRRRRRG!"


:lol: I was angry because I was like...spending all my years in Kirkwall talking about mages rights pretty much every time I could and he still decides to not share his mind with me. But kill him? No. Then I would have to kill Sten, Fenris, Zevran and Isabela for their actions :)

#24
River5

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Even though I think his actions were justified, I don't think they were right. He's throwing the unprepared mages into a war they have little chance of winning and alienating whatever potential allies they might have been able to gather. I know Anders means well, but he's a damaging friend for the mages to have, not only by being exactly what people fear most about mages, but by repelling people from his cause and associating it with extremism.


I see your point.  However, I doubt that mages will ever truly be "ready" to fight back.  Probably because they won't ever be given the opportunity to trully prepare for a rebellion if they remain as they are in the Circles.  It's very difficult for them to organize any resistance movement effectively under these circumstances.

And I am a bit hesitant to call Anders an extremist, though his line "there is no compromise" suggests it.  But I don't think that he meant it as "there can never be any compromise between mages and the general population".  More as "the actual situation unfortunately doesn't allow for compromise".

An extremist, to me, would be someone who would advocate for mages to be free without facing any restrictions from anyone anywhere, and settle for nothing less.

Anders is advocating for mages being given the chance to share the same rights as other citizens.  A demand that is far from extreme.

And, as an apostate and a fugitive (from both the Chantry and the Wardens, no less), his influence is very limited.  Even close to non-existent.  The Champion could have tried to bring about change in a more progressive manner because his words carry some weight with those wielding power in and outside the city.

Anders has no "voice".

So, the means Anders took were in accordance with the level of power he had.  It was as extreme as his utter inability to influence the world around him was extreme.

With the Champion's support, something else could have been attempted.  But the game didn't let us do that (mainly because it didn't want to force the player into supporting his cause).

But I can see why his actions might be interpreted as "extremism", even though the character himself isn't an extremist per say.  And yes, he may unfortunately have alienated mages from certains supporters.

Anders took a huge gamble in assuming that the mages would be fast enough to organize, and strong / powerful enough to not only survive, but acquire their freedom.  I'm among those who believe that it was a risk worth taking, even if the rebellion fails.

For, even if it fails, the important fact remains that someone found the courage to stand up and yell "ENOUGH" in the face of Chantry opression.  The surviving mages will still be able to learn from the mistakes that were made in that first attempt at the rebellion, and perhaps be more successful the next time around.  Or the next after that.

#25
Big I

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I'm pro-mage, but I was absolutely sickened by what Anders did in DA2. If he'd attacked the templars he'd possibly have been justified, but even then that sort of indiscriminate attack would have also killed templars who acted like Thrask, Emoric and Keran, or even some decent "hardliners" like Cullen.


But he didn't attack the templars. He blew up a building full of innocent people. Elthina didn't force Anders or anyone else into the Circle; she doesn't even seem to mind having dealings with Apostate Hawke, even elisting them for a clandestine meeting with an agent of the Divine. The brothers and sisters of the Chantry, priests who spent their time administering good works to the public and preaching a moral code of compassion, never made any mages tranquil. Anders killed them anyway.


Injustice, even systematic injustice, does not justify the wanton murder of innocent civilians. That's what he did. He didn't need to do it. He could have limited his attack to the templars, or even just to Meredith. He didn't because he was so sick that he thought an all out war between the Circles and the Templars would be better than working within the established system.


There were other options. There were templars like Thrask who believed in a gentler approach. There was the possibility of establishing Circles free of Chantry control (if they didn't already exist) in Ferelden and Orzammar. There was even the option of simply replacing Meredith with someone who's not actually insane.


Anders is a murderous madman, a disgrace to the Grey Wardens and mages everywhere. He got more mages killed in that stunt and what it provoked than would have died under the status quo. He squandered the sympathy people felt for oppressed mages by becoming everything they fear about magic. He is, in short, an abomination.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 28 juin 2011 - 04:51 .