131 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

I'll throw out a question and hope it doesn't go somewhere bad.

Is anyone else really uncomfortable with the devs' comparison of Anders being... the way he is... to real-world, non Fade-induced mental problems like bipolar disorder?  I find that terribly awkward, especially given what he ends up doing.  Maybe it's just me.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 juin 2011 - 10:55 .

[DreamerM]

Slaying the innocent is a waste.

Slaying the guilty is where it's at.

[Huntress]

I don't get mad about the game, I do have alot of trouble with it when I think about it tho, so may things that do not FIT.. lol I see Him as an extreme case of double-personalities desorder.. lol.

Yes I have alot of problems with Anders, is not that I love him or hate him, is just in real life I would have killed him after we meet Karl. See real life sux he is a good romance tho! lol:wub:

Modifié par Huntress, 28 juin 2011 - 11:04 .

[DreamerM]

Addai67 wrote...
Is anyone else really uncomfortable with the devs' comparison of Anders being... the way he is... to real-world, non Fade-induced mental problems like bipolar disorder?  I find that terribly awkward, especially given what he ends up doing.  Maybe it's just me.

I'll second the hope, but share the thoughts that I've collected on the manner. I know people who have family members who are bipolar, who actually say that the way they portrayed Anders, with his dramatic highs and dark lows, is actually a fairly accurate-ish depiction of that disorder.

....Which makes me wonder, again, why Justice needed to be involved at all. Unless you're saying that bipolar people share their souls with spirits, mental instability is definitely an established thing in the DA world. Magic doesn't have to be involved for you to be nuts.

So why make Anders an abomination? Why not just make him bipolar? If you completely ignore the emotional baggage you'd have if you know both Anders and Justice in Awakening, then his Abomination nature is a serious plot point that doesn't really go anywhere. He could have done all that stuff without Justice, heck he would have been a lot more interesting if he didn't have a Spirit in his head to take some of the blame for his well-intentioned crazy.

Now Anders fused with Justice IS a fantastically dramatic idea, but somewhere along the line, Justice became irrelevant to the plot. I wonder where that just fell apart...

[non-post]

Huntress wrote...

I was going to make a very long post, I decided not to, after reading you're post I thought either you were a very young person, or simple someone who lives in a cave, never been tought history, or ever picking up a book to do researchs. If you want to learn since when Man's have fought for freedom, get the library card and use it.

You don't see many things, I dought you know what freedom means or feels like, this days people talk about it as something that just exist, not many know how it feels in the heart, skin or when is missing.

if you want to know about places in Thedas, hit the wiki.

Nice... Tell me, what are your plans if the mages don't get their "freedom" at the end of DA3?

I do have sympathies for the plight of the mages and the injustices they received at the hands of the Templars. If I lived in the Circle, I would be trying to escape all the time, just like Anders. I have mage saves in DAO/DA2 and played those characters as stictly pro-mage. 

Are there better, more humane ways to treat the mages? Yes there are. Would I like to see it come to pass in DA3? Yes I would. Do I want to see the Chantry burn? No I do not. I enjoy the series for what it is and are not wrapped in hate for anything that says Chantry. Because the Chantry has its good with bad and the bad seriously needs to be filtered out. But not be completely destroyed.

You, instead, like to throw out blanket statements about mages freedom, without looking at consequences of those actions, or how it was achieved. That is a very narrow view. Mage freedom could mean the utopian vision, that you and others share. Or it could be a total Hell, that burns and destroys everything. We, for one, have no idea where they are taking this series, they could decide to let the Templars win.

Think about this.Thedans have real fear of the mages and it isn't just the preaching of the Chantry. Something happened in the past, that isn't fully fleshed out yet, that caused that fear. Hopefully the series will last long enough to get the answers.

[TEWR]

DreamerM wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Is anyone else really uncomfortable with the devs' comparison of Anders being... the way he is... to real-world, non Fade-induced mental problems like bipolar disorder?  I find that terribly awkward, especially given what he ends up doing.  Maybe it's just me.

I'll second the hope, but share the thoughts that I've collected on the manner. I know people who have family members who are bipolar, who actually say that the way they portrayed Anders, with his dramatic highs and dark lows, is actually a fairly accurate-ish depiction of that disorder.

....Which makes me wonder, again, why Justice needed to be involved at all. Unless you're saying that bipolar people share their souls with spirits, mental instability is definitely an established thing in the DA world. Magic doesn't have to be involved for you to be nuts.

So why make Anders an abomination? Why not just make him bipolar? If you completely ignore the emotional baggage you'd have if you know both Anders and Justice in Awakening, then his Abomination nature is a serious plot point that doesn't really go anywhere. He could have done all that stuff without Justice, heck he would have been a lot more interesting if he didn't have a Spirit in his head to take some of the blame for his well-intentioned crazy.

Now Anders fused with Justice IS a fantastically dramatic idea, but somewhere along the line, Justice became irrelevant to the plot. I wonder where that just fell apart...

Fusing with Justice is what caused him to be bipolar though. Not in that he now houses two different people (himself and Justice), but that his fusing with Justice has caused him to do things he wouldn't normally do. So that's why he is so depressed some moments and happy at others. Bioware just didn't show enough of Justice's side though.

I would've enjoyed having an actual conversation with Justice, depending on whether I'm Anders' friend or Rival.

[DreamerM]

non-post wrote...
Thedans have real fear of the mages and it isn't just the preaching of the Chantry. Something happened in the past, that isn't fully fleshed out yet, that caused that fear.

I think it was called The Imperium, and it involved lots of slavery, blood magic, and some Magisters who profaned the Dark City to become the world's first Darkspawn.

...According to the Chantry. But the Chantry's story is the only one Thedans hear, and one of their commandments is basically cautioning against using magic to Rule Over Man, which means it's ingrained in Chantry teachings that Mages (magic-users) should not use their arbitrary genetic gift to oppress those not born with it, which morphs to "we must keep magic-users from oppressing people" which morphs again into "we must oppress the mages or they will oppress us," which becomes "lets oppress them a bit more, just to be safer" which becomes eventually "screw it, lets kill them all."

It's kind of like a reasonable compromise where "We'll send mages to one place to learn to use their gifts safely" became "we will post guards around that learning-place to keep an eye out for blood magic and abominations" which became "we will lock the mages in this place and never let them out, never let their families ask about them, and beat them when we get bored somebody steals from their store."

Modifié par DreamerM, 28 juin 2011 - 11:27 .

[TEWR]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I'll throw out a question and hope it doesn't go somewhere bad.

Is anyone else really uncomfortable with the devs' comparison of Anders being... the way he is... to real-world, non Fade-induced mental problems like bipolar disorder?  I find that terribly awkward, especially given what he ends up doing.  Maybe it's just me.

In what context? You mean if the bipolar disorder was caused by Justice, or that having a Fade spirit in your head is similar to having a bipolar disorder? And this creates some Unfortunate Implications since being fused with Justice is what drives him to doing what he does?

I was given the impression that he was always like this, even before Justice. He could not have been entirely there, anyway. No one goes through a year in solitary confinement and stays so cheery.

That's how I saw him in Awakening. I've been known to use jokes to cover up the darker things in my life, and it's worked well. So I naturally saw Anders in Awakening to be the same way.


Fusing with Justice made Anders do things he wouldn't have normally done, and because of that, he no longer has a reason to try and use jokes to cover things up. Fusing with Justice didn't cause the bipolar disorder Anders has, it just made it worse.

[DreamerM]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I was given the impression that he was always like this, even before Justice.

I think that may be going a bit far. Pre-Justice Anders didn't believe in sacrificing innocent people for any cause, no matter how noble.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
He could not have been entirely there, anyway. No one goes through a year in solitary confinement and stays so cheery.

If there was one thing Pre-Justice Anders had, it was survival instinct. He kept himself sane bonding with Mr. Wiggums, telling jokes to the walls, and sheer willpower, he somehow kept himself from turning into the miserable, mentally-unstable wreak that he eventually became anyway.

It's funny. He surrendered his survival instinct to become a crusader, and that's what actually turned him into the monster the Templars could never force him to become.

[Huntress]

DreamerM wrote...

non-post wrote...
Thedans have real fear of the mages and it isn't just the preaching of the Chantry. Something happened in the past, that isn't fully fleshed out yet, that caused that fear.

I think it was called The Imperium, and it involved lots of slavery, blood magic, and some Magisters who profaned the Dark City to become the world's first Darkspawn.

...According to the Chantry. But the Chantry's story is the only one Thedans hear, and one of their commandments is basically cautioning against using magic to Rule Over Man, which means it's ingrained in Chantry teachings that Mages (magic-users) should not use their arbitrary genetic gift to oppress those not born with it, which morphs to "we must keep magic-users from oppressing people" which morphs again into "we must oppress the mages or they will oppress us," which becomes "lets oppress them a bit more, just to be safer" which becomes eventually "screw it, lets kill them all."

It's kind of like a reasonable compromise where "We'll send mages to one place to learn to use their gifts safely" became "we will post guards around that learning-place to keep an eye out for blood magic and abominations" which became "we will lock the mages in this place and never let them out, never let their families ask about them, and beat them when we get bored somebody steals from their store."

You hit the nail.. rofl

Thats whats happening right now, they started doing "good" now is bad for everyone, chantry, templars, mages and innocent people. ( can't forget the innocent people)
Still waiting for anyone to tell me how many wars have been fought without casualties for either sides.. I dought they'll be able to find it, not in a game or real life, is a myth, a wish, a delusion.

[River5]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]River5 wrote...
Have we been advocating for "absolute freedom"?  All that most of us are hoping for is a reform allowing mages the same rights as any other man.  Like I said, if it isn't right to control your neighbor using extortion, than it shouldn't be any more right to do so with the use of magic. [/quote]

But you can extort your neighbour. And you can mind control with magic. So how do you protect people? A right is only a right to the extent it can be enforced and protected by the law.[/quote]

I'm really not sure I am following you here...  You seem to be saying exactly what I'm already saying.  That, to protect both people from extortion and mind control, the best alternative is to make both approaches illegal.

[quote]
[quote]You can easily have laws making magical training mandatory for all children as soon as their powers emerge.  You can even have registries and keep philacteries should you wish to do so. [/quote]

So we take mages away from their parents to centralized systems of learning (potentially against the wishes of the parents) and we force them to register their identities and keep track of them using what is essentially an impossible-to-beat spy network.[/quote]

Wait?  What?  No.  You DON'T take mages away from their parents.  They leave their home in the morning, go study with their masters, and then come back home in the evening to their families.

Or, if they live in big cities, they go to the Circles for study, and come back at the end of the day.

You could even have a "boarding school" model where friends and family are allowed to visit too, and they return to their homes every once in a while (think Hogwarts...  Lol!).

Making magical training mandatory is simply saying that young mages must enlist with an accredited enchanter in order to learn to use their powers, receive guidance from more experienced enchanters, and learn how to protect themselves from demons..  Not be taken away from their families!

And, I come from a country where you need training and a license to own a gun.  So I see no problem with having to register yourself as being a mage in order to make sure that, should you suddenly go on a power trip and start killing and/or mind controlling people, there would be a way to track you down and stop you.

Mages DO represent a certain risk because of the power they inherently have.  I've never been denying it, or saying that the general population shouldn't be protected from the potential abuses of these powers.

Just that it's unecessary to lock these people up to do so, and deny them the right to have a normal life and/or start a family.

[quote]

[quote]Circles of Magi could become learning institutions (I'm refering to the Circles of Magi as an organization responsible for keeping and teaching magic knowledge and history, not necessarily the building)...  Enchanters wishing to become masters to apprentices could need to be accredited and their training program approved by the Circles before being allowed to teach, etc. [/quote]

So, we have a building where we bring mages to study, keep them there until they are adults, track them if they try to leave, and have a training period for senior mages to treat junior mages. [/quote]

Not at all.  You don't keep them there until they are adults.  You don't track them if they leave (since they can leave whenever they wish to).  Philacteries would be used only in order to track down dangerous mage criminals if all other ways to do so have failed.

[quote]

So far, it sounds exactly like the Circles that already exist.

[/quote]

Not at all.  There's no Chantry oversight.  It's a place where knowledge about magic and its history is kept and taught, pure and simple.

[quote]
[quote]
The mages need to be taught to become accountable and responsible for their powers, and how to use them.
[/quote]

Still sounds like the Circle.
[/quote]

If that was the only mission of the Circle, than yes.  But it's not.  Circles also serve as prisons for mages where they are under constant watch by the Templars.

[quote]

And now the big question: how do you enforce this? You tell a mage not to burn people alive for fun - but what's stoping the mage? Other mages? Okay. But what let's common people avoid being ruled over by their genetic superiors?
[/quote]

Say, isn't there a king that rules the country?  Or some other figure of authority?  Who enforces the laws for the common people?

Mages are people too, it should only be fair that they should fall under the same jurisdiction.

In Kirkwall, I suppose it would be the City Guards.  And, since mages could be allowed to become members of the Guards themselves, they could very well teach others how to protect themselves from magical assaults.

There's also the issue of the Templar Order to consider...  If Templars are no longer required to hunt down mages by the Chantry (because the state refuses to allow a religious organization to regulate the use of magic on their lands)...  I'm wondering what purpose they would have.

Would they stay with the Chantry?  Or wish to separate from it, and offer their services to the ruler of the country instead.

Using Templars to enforce the law when it comes to magic would be very tricky, especially in the beginning, since mages would be prone to associate them with the opression they have suffered.

[quote]

[quote]That the only way for people to be safe is by segregating them.[/quote]

Your proposed system does that too. Even assuming mages have the right to mobility under your proposal, they're still taken away as children and forced to give up their original life for one in the Circle (at least for a time) and have to be tracked where-ever they go.[/quote]

Nope, it would be illegal to use philacteries to track down a mage that hasn't committed any life-threatening crime.

You do know that your fingerprints were taken at some point in your life and could be used to identify you on the scene of a crime, right?

I have a similar vision when I think about those philacteries.

[quote]
[quote]Then, if they do, call the Right of Annullement and wipe out all of said building's inhabitants (innocents and guilty alike) wondering how you wounded up with abominations in there in the first place.
[/quote]

Actually, Rite's don't require abomiantions. The first one was calld because the Circle was rebelling against the templars, not because there were abominations. DA:O's Rite was very different from the one in lore; the lore actually tells us what happened in DA2 is the norm, not the exception.[/quote]

See, that's even worse...  Lol!

[quote]
[quote]I've never, ever heard Anders go "Whoohoohoo!  We must have absolute freedom without any form of regulation!"

No, all he wants and all that most of us that agree with him want is the right for mages to live among people and be allowed to love, have children, raise families, get a job or join the king's service shall they wish to![/quote]

Relative to what a peasant in the era can do, that is absolutely freedom without regulation. Not that this isn't a noble end; it's just that it's calling a spade a spade. And I think mages should be free - but there needs to be a counter-balance to their power. [/quote]

Is there really no laws for the commoners?  Kirkwall has City Guards...  Redcliffe has its army...  In every village or city you go, there are people who are in chage of upholding the law.

[quote]

[quote]What if, confronted with the horrors and inequalities of the Dragon Ages (that includes the way elves are treated, the Caste system in Orzammar, the slavery in Tevinter), some of us are wishing for changes...  And hoping that we will become witnesses to such changes?[/quote]

And what if, like the USSR, the changes aren't the idealistic outcome you hoped for?

[/quote][/quote]

Then you try something new.  Either abandoning old ideals for new ones...  Or finding new ways to hopefully make these ideals become a reality some day.

I use the word "ideal" pretty losely, because no system is ever going to be 100% ideal.

Like with any situation where change is desirable or needed, you won't ever know if things can get better or not unless you try something new.  Take risks.  If it works...  Great!  If not, hopefully you learn from those mistakes and avoid to repeat them.

Modifié par River5, 29 juin 2011 - 12:29 .

[DreamerM]

Someone who supports abolishing circles entirely please tell me....

What do you do with an Abomination?

You have to be improbably, unreasonably pro-Templar for this to come up, but Meredith had a sister who was an apostate, and the family worked to hide her. She became possessed and killed 60 people before the Templar finally put her down.

If you've got a mage, you've got to have some sort of system in place to protect the citizenry from abominations and blood magic. How would a post-Circle world handle this?

[Ryzaki]

Which is why I'm pro changing the circles over time into schools were people can leave and come back (with checkins that are necessary. You miss your check in the templars go hunting for you).

[Vit246]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Furthermore, the problem is not the Chantry. The problem is the Templar Order and their brand of enforcement of the law. You cannot equate the Chantry, a religious organisation, with the Templars. The Templars are a semi-independent military organisation with a different command structure - that's one of the reasons why what Petrice was doing with Varnell was illegitimate, she had no authority over templars. Elthina had no control over the day to day activities of the templars, that's why Kirkwall had a Knight-Commander in the first place.


Also, Anders' choice, the oppression of the status quo or revolution, was a false one. It was not a question of either or. Reform under the existing system was possible, due mostly to the fact that Meredith was being draconian even by templar standards. In Ferelden even without the Mage Warden boon there was a relaxing of standards. It didn't need to lead to a war that is going to get more mages killed than ever before. Slow change is preferable to civil war.

Wrong. The Chantry is the supreme authority that every Templar, especially the Knight-Commander, is effectively subordinate to. The DA codexes explain as such. The Chantry is the controlling body, and the Templar Order is its military arm. The Knight-Commander ultimately answers to the Grand Cleric, the Divine, and the Chantry as a whole. That is how Elthina promoted Meredith to the position. That is how, in Act 3, Elthina can give orders to the templars to "escort Orsino gently" and Meredith to behave like a good girl and return to the Gallows. That is how a Knight-Commander must have the permission of a Grand Cleric to invoke the Rite of Anullment. That is how the Divine can reject Ser Alrik's proposal of the Tranquil Solution.

And lets not forget how the Templars are hopelessly addicted to lyrium. Guess what, the Chantry effectively controls the lyrium trade, and in turn controls the Templars. The Chantry can simply withhold the lyrium supply if it wants to. Do you honestly believe that the Chantry has no authority over its own military subordinate?


And you are wrong about the possibility of reform under the current system. If Anders thought for a moment that sweeping reform in favor of mages was possible, he would not have done what he did. He was waiting for about 3 years for Elthina to act and do something about the conflict. He tried giving her her one last chance to end her non-existent "neutraility" before implanting the explosives. Had Elthina chosen differently, he would not have done what he did.

So what if Meredith was acting draconian? No one was doing anything about it. No on was really stopping her from doing what she wanted. No one of the Chantry was ordering her to stand down, least of all Elthina. Hell, she was violating Chantry law itself by allowing the Tranquiling of Harrowed mages for whatever reason, no matter how small. The Chantry put her in power and is effectively allowing her to do whatever to the mages. Elthina knew of Meredith's activities and did nothing about it with the supreme authority she had over her.

Under the current system, the Chantry has all the power, and the mages have none. If any mage complains, the Chantry with their templar minions can just have that mage killed or Tranquiled and be done with it. That is what happened to Karl when he wrote letters to Anders complaining of conditions. Why would the Chantry listen to mages or pursue reform that would reduce their power and control over them? Doesn't the Chantry preach that all mages are irredemiably evil and cursed? It is in the Chantry's interests that there is no reform and the staus quo is preserved.

Speaking of Ferelden, what "relaxing of standards" is there? All Alistair is doing is hiding away apostate mages. He still has no real control over Ferelden CIrcle mages under the Chantry's control, and it would not  be wise to incite the wrath of the Chantry or an Exalted March on a weakened Blighted kingdom.

I wish people would stop pretending that the Chantry and the Templars are two separate organizations with no relation.

Modifié par Vit246, 29 juin 2011 - 12:59 .

[River5]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not more political. Mages refer to themselves as a people. Even Circle mage Bethany asks a pro-templar Hawke not to make her choose between family and "her people."

If it is race, though, then it becomes a real issue of integration. Thinking of it this way creates a perpetual divide between mages and non-mages.

Mages are indeed a race, or a nation.

race 1  (rs)n.
1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.

Source: www.thefreedictionary.com/race

Modifié par River5, 29 juin 2011 - 12:54 .

[HopeVessel]

Huntress wrote...

HopeVessel wrote...

The people in the system may be corrupt but that doesnt mean the system is terrible. Elthina didnt order all those bad things, it was the knight commander. I want mage freedom, but its impossible. Well true freedom is, it is to everyone actually, but there needs to be a system that teaches them and allows them use their powers wisely.

And i dont like that they turn into abominations when they are defending themselves, and i think anders plan wasnt good either. I dont believe hurting innocent people is necessary to create change. And saying that since im going to die why not just turn into an abomination and risk killing innocent people is not good to get support for a cause. Whenever mages turn to abominations, demons, raising the dead, it doesnt help them in any way. Anders even mentions something like this, even though he is an abomination. What is justice? Is it not different for everyone? What makes the spirit right?

I think anders is a horrible leader for the mage movement, given that he may have killed an innocent mage and he killed innocent people in the chantry. Im still afraid of mages anders, you did nothing to help, since i know you will kill me for your own selfish reasons, or just because you are crazy by dealing with a spirit, either one isnt good.

So innocent mages are more important than innocent non-mages? So you would sacrifice innocent people and use their blood to fuel your own goals? Thats not a good argument for those who fear tevinter. I know thats probably not what you mean but the point is that you dont help your case by doing it. Is innocent loss of life necessary? If it is, would it not be better to sacrifice your "own kind" to show that you aren't selfish.

What sounds better? We will sacrifice ourselves to ensure that mages and maybe others live better lives in the future, or we will sacrifice other people (those that arent really a part of the conflict, innocents) to ensure that mages and maybe other people live better lives in the future.

How much power should we allow the chantry to have?  how much power is allow to the templars? Who will dictate them how much power is going to be use over mages? Mages can't because of fear of them becoming another tavinter imperium then who? a king? rofl. wake UP.

it seems that the only one who should learn how to use the power is mages, yet everyone in Thedas do not care about who falls victime of their actions, who rules, who is slaved, that can only be enforced on to mages, right?
Everything seems impossible when you sit and think about it and by not taking any action towards that goal.

Waiting for someone also to do it for you, is not the way to go, not one should care for you but yourself.
I wish to know how many people freed themself by just wishing, dreaming or talking about it.

Wich war have been fought and not one but the "bad people" had died? let me know what you believe after trying to find the amount and getting zero reference about it.

Anders never mention to be the leader, he wants HAWKE to lead the revolution, if you don't agree and have him rival then he wants to become a Martyr, but never a leader.

Meaning of Martyr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr
Meaning of Leader:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership

I m not saying innocents people are NOT important, I m saying that they are going to die, people die in wars, been neutral towards it, been in favor or against they die. No war is won or lost without casualties stop deluding you'reself.

You sacrifies everyhting if you make a war, first and more important is YOU'RE life that you are putting on the lines, then you sacrifies you're friends lifes, because they'll follow you, then You're childrens will die for you, for you're cause... tell me is that  not enough sacrifices. isn't that price high enough? And yet people will do it, Myhawke knew bethany was going to die just because she was a mage. is my hawke lifes more worthy that bethany? She didn't think so , if Myhawke has to die for defending bethany, she will, and she will take few heads with her.

What sounds better? To me is way better if the chantry and templar will start teaching young mages that they are  cursed, that equality is for few and not everyone, that the mages do not fit as been humanoids, less being called humans or elves, they should start been called, monsters or weapons, that mages should be grateful for the mercy of the chantry and templars for allowing them to live. that mages very existance is a threat to real humans and themaker itself. Any mage questioning any of this should be put to death as soon as possible, mages shouldn't think for themself. <_< Happy?<_<

Ps; I just described how so many of the templars sees the mages, please ignore the last paragraph, is already happening in DA2.

Leader was a bad choice of words, lets call anders a symbol of the movement, the point im making is that his association/involvment with movement/revolution doesnt help. The mages should denounce him and not honor him in anyway. 

Now that's the other problem, it seems to have turned into a war, when it should have just stayed a "movement." Sometimes you dont have a choice, and yes innocents die in war. But how do they die? In modern war a lot of it has to do with the weapons that are used (this doesnt really matter in this case). If the war was just with swords, innocents shouldnt die. Of course magic is dangerous and if used carelessly may easily hurt innocents. 

The point im making here is that in a world like dragon age or even when wars use to be fought with just swords in real life, the only way innocents would die is if your policies for the war were "evil." Which in history happened a lot. It was always "this group of people are evil and therefore they all deserve to die, do what you want with them, or take them as prisoners and have them serve us." At least i cant think of any ways where innocents should die in a war like that.

I think the system in dragon age needs to change but mages need to be careful how they go about it if they want sympathy and support.The best way is to show that they are "nicer, more humane, not as evil" as the people they are facing. I see no reasons why innocents have to die. Unless one group takes a bunch of people hostage and say "do this or that and they live, if not they die." In which case all the blame for innocents dieing should be laid upon the ones who took the hostages.

So if mages want to win the war they need to show that they are better people and can be trusted more than the people they are fighting. And blowing up the chantry i dont think was necessary. So they are off to a bad start.

And with any kind of power there needs to be regulations, so the mages should find out how to keep their power in check. Magic is way more dangerous and effective at killing than a sword, and it is way more effective at controlling other people. How do you make sure in isnt abused. And i dont really care if people with swords or whatever abuse the power they have, prove that mages are better. Hold yourselves to higher standards.

[River5]

HopeVessel wrote...

So innocent mages are more important than innocent non-mages? So you would sacrifice innocent people and use their blood to fuel your own goals? Thats not a good argument for those who fear tevinter. I know thats probably not what you mean but the point is that you dont help your case by doing it. Is innocent loss of life necessary? If it is, would it not be better to sacrifice your "own kind" to show that you aren't selfish.

What sounds better? We will sacrifice ourselves to ensure that mages and maybe others live better lives in the future, or we will sacrifice other people (those that arent really a part of the conflict, innocents) to ensure that mages and maybe other people live better lives in the future.

Well, actually...

Isn't forcing mages into a fight, flee, or DIE situation showing Anders' willingness to make sacrifices on the side of the innocent mages as well?  I mean, he's really getting quite a few of his own people killed with his plans to overthrow the Chantry.

Also, the selfish guy was sort of expecting to die for what he did.

So, as far as "sacrificing his own kind" and "sacrificing his own life" goes...  He's pretty much on the right path.

[Rifneno]

non-post wrote...

This proves how radical the pro-mage group has become. I wonder what all you will do if you don't get absolute freedom for mages at the end of DA3?

You pro-Chantry guys haven't changed a bit though. You're still just liars. How many people have advocated "absolute freedom" for mages? You can't understand the difference between wanting total anarchy and not wanting a fascist dictatorship, and you have the unmitigated gall to call US radical? Pot, meet kettle.

What were the reasons the mages were locked up in the first place? Is it because they are different or is it because from the actions of the magisters in the Tevinter Imperium?

Learn your DA history before spouting off about it, will you? The Circles were created after the mages, who were relegated to lighting lamps at the Chantry's "holy" whim, made a peaceful protest and Divine Ambrosia II tried to launch an exalted march on her own cathedral in response. Mages supposedly cheerfully accepted exile to Circles after the Divine showed everyone that she was the true evil.

Foolsfolly wrote...

"Every mage I helped back stabbed me."

No good deed towards a mage goes unpunished.

As opposed to the templars or Chantry, who never try to kill you after helping them.

Did I say never? Because I meant just about always. Try to help Thrask in the first chapter, and Karras tries to kill you. Petrice and Varnell I need not elaborate on. Best Served Cold, of course features countless templars trying to kill you. After helping Meredith uncover the conspiracy at her behest, if you tell her the truth (that Orsino wasn't involved) she accuses you of being a blood mage thrall. You know, before she tries to kill you after you help her with the Annulment. In The Last Holdouts, which is only available when you side with the templars, no matter what you do a templar will try to kill you. Don't try to say mages are the only backstabbers.

non-post wrote...

Don't compare it with branding a race, this is more political than anything else.

You don't get to say what it can and cannot be compared to anymore than anyone else.

Yes, if your own mage is just slitting their wrist for a little extra mana, I would agree with you. But you also have the ability to syphon blood from your own companions. As with other abuses, when a magister can slaughter their own slaves for more spellpower, you see where the evil lies.

So because you CAN do an evil act with something, that something is then inherently evil. I guess we better get rid of knives worldwide. Not sure how we'll cut our meat at dinnertime, but who cares about that because there's a POTENTIAL for abuse. Unlike the Chantry, which totally doesn't enable sadists, rapists, and murderers by giving them complete power over a minority. Oh heavens no, that's completely different!

nightscrawl wrote...

but one thing they are good for in Thedas and in real life is community service. There are several examples in DAO especially of the local Chantry giving help to the poor and those fleeing the blight.

My response to everytime that's brought up: http://www.cracked.c...ime-syndicates/

It's a fascinating list, capping off with a guy that build everything from sports arenas to zoos for the poor. Airports and schools, you name it. He gave them clean water and built roads. He'd probably be considered a saint if it wasn't for the fact he got the money for all that by being one of the most ruthless and powerful druglords of all time. And when you factor in the hundreds of cops he murdered... I'm not really going to be shedding any tears over his death. Ditto for the Chantry.

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I'm pro-mage, but I was absolutely sickened by what Anders did in DA2. If he'd attacked the templars he'd possibly have been justified, but even then that sort of indiscriminate attack would have also killed templars who acted like Thrask, Emoric and Keran, or even some decent "hardliners" like Cullen.

I didn't see a single templar throw down their sword and refuse to follow Meredith's insane order of Annulment. So frankly, I think it's fine to kill them all. Every templar that was alive at the start of the Right of Annulment deserves death. Cullen included. I don't give that piece of crap any brownie points for defending Hawke after he himself butchered who knows how many innocent and helpless mages for an order even he considers unjust.

But he didn't attack the templars. He blew up a building full of innocent people. Elthina didn't force Anders or anyone else into the Circle; she doesn't even seem to mind having dealings with Apostate Hawke, even elisting them for a clandestine meeting with an agent of the Divine. The brothers and sisters of the Chantry, priests who spent their time administering good works to the public and preaching a moral code of compassion, never made any mages tranquil. Anders killed them anyway.

Innocent people die in war. Real war isn't like a hollywood movie where the good guys never have to kill anyone who isn't clearly a direct threat. As for Elthina... that ****, the only injustice in her death is that she wasn't mentally, physically, and sexually abused until she took her own life like so many of the mages in her "care." I hope Andrastism has a form of hell, because Elthina deserves to burn. Honestly if I had to pick the one person I consider the worst in DA2, it's Elthina. Everyone else who did horrible things had some major mental impairment. Be it the lyrium idol of doom, having a crazy spirit in their head, or just plain old fashioned real world mental/emotional problems, they pretty much all had SOME mitigating factor. Not Elthina. That putrid maggot sat by knowing full well what her inaction would wrought time and time again.

Addai67 wrote...

I'll throw out a question and hope it doesn't go somewhere bad.

Is anyone else really uncomfortable with the devs' comparison of Anders being... the way he is... to real-world, non Fade-induced mental problems like bipolar disorder?  I find that terribly awkward, especially given what he ends up doing.  Maybe it's just me.

For once, I agree with you. I know, it's a little creepy isn't it? But yeah, I thought that was mindblowingly tacky. For some reason they decided to include a couple of people in DA with very real and unfortunately common mental illnesses. And what do they do? One of them blows up a church and the other murders (and possibly molests) a bunch of children. Seriously, who the bloody hell thought that was a good idea? Why not throw in a few black guys and have them run around stealing stuff while you're at it, Bioware?

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

In what context? You mean if the bipolar disorder was caused by Justice, or that having a Fade spirit in your head is similar to having a bipolar disorder? And this creates some Unfortunate Implications since being fused with Justice is what drives him to doing what he does?

In the context that Jennifer Hepler, who wrote Anders in DA2, said that "Obviously, in a fantasy setting the real world metaphors will never be exact, but I certainly always thought of Anders as being essentially bipolar and I tried to use as much real world psychology as I could (giving away of personal possessions before planning to commit suicide, etc.)."

It's definitely a problem when they write a character as suffering a very real and very common mental illness that many people struggle with, and have him turn into a terrorist blowing up buildings and thinking he'll be a martyr for his cause.  Ditto for the Magistrate's Son and schizophrenia. There's a lot of stigmas about mental illness even today. Countless people commit suicide every year over illnesses that could be treated with a daily pill. Many more simply suffer silently because of these stigmas. So when someone thinks it's a good idea to release a work where the only two mentally ill characters wind up killing a bunch of people... I'll be civil and just say I take offense.

[River5]

DreamerM wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I was given the impression that he was always like this, even before Justice.

I think that may be going a bit far. Pre-Justice Anders didn't believe in sacrificing innocent people for any cause, no matter how noble.

Oookay...  Bipolarity is a mood disorder where the person alternates between manic behaviors, and episodes of depression.

When people suffering from bipolarity are in the manic stages, they may perceive themselves as being all powerful, endowed with some sacred mission, or think that their pay cheque is much bigger than it is (and thus make exagerated financial decisions that they'll wind up regretting).

When they are in the depressive stages, they may perceive themselves as a failure, find themselves unable to enjoy the basic pleasures in life...  Feel that nothing they do is worth it.  Even be suicidal.

Basically, they alternate between absolute self-confidence and happiness, to extreme self-loathing and despair.  Between very high highs, and very low lows.

Sometimes, the cycles are very far appart (months, or years)...  Sometimes they occur from one day to the other.

And there are also breaks within these cycles where the person is able to function 100% normally.

Bipolarity has nothing to do with the desire to sacrifice innocent people to any cause.

So yes, Anders could very well have been bipolar, and going through these massive mood swings before his joining with Justice.

And the time we spent with him in Awakening was during a more "manic" stage, and/or simply a period of stability.

Modifié par River5, 29 juin 2011 - 01:39 .

[HopeVessel]

River5 wrote...

HopeVessel wrote...

So innocent mages are more important than innocent non-mages? So you would sacrifice innocent people and use their blood to fuel your own goals? Thats not a good argument for those who fear tevinter. I know thats probably not what you mean but the point is that you dont help your case by doing it. Is innocent loss of life necessary? If it is, would it not be better to sacrifice your "own kind" to show that you aren't selfish.

What sounds better? We will sacrifice ourselves to ensure that mages and maybe others live better lives in the future, or we will sacrifice other people (those that arent really a part of the conflict, innocents) to ensure that mages and maybe other people live better lives in the future.

Well, actually...

Isn't forcing mages into a fight, flee, or DIE situation showing Anders' willingness to make sacrifices on the side of the innocent mages as well?  I mean, he's really getting quite a few of his own people killed with his plans to overthrow the Chantry.

Also, the selfish guy was sort of expecting to die for what he did.

So, as far as "sacrificing his own kind" and "sacrificing his own life" goes...  He's pretty much on the right path.

Yeah he was, except when it comes to the chantry part, i assume there were a lot more people in the chantry than just elthina, they didnt deserve to die. The other mistake is i dont feel like he had much of a plan, it was just "there needs to be change." I think he should have figured out a way to make sure that all the people in the circle dont turn to blood magic and demons. 

When you side with the mages you fight some of the mages anyway, plus when you side with templars you fight some of the templars as well because of the mages. I feel anders was reckless. What would have happened if the templars lost (with all those abominations and demons), or if something (a demon) got loose and started attacking random people, which they may have.

Modifié par HopeVessel, 29 juin 2011 - 01:45 .

[Areksu]

Blood magic isn't the issue, but abominations certainly are. Blood magic is seen as bad because of a taboo the chantry has on mages cutting themselves for magical power (I kid you not). Yes, there is the whole mind control thing, but if you look at the lore in the game, its really banned because they cut themselves.
As for the chantry, their apparent indifference to Meredith's repression is nothing more than silent support for the templars. The grand cleric's dialogue with Sebastian suggests this, and even if I were wrong, her inaction in the face of such oppression when she clearly has the power to stop it marks her as negligent. The prior makes sense considering the templar are the knights of the chantry.
Killing the grand cleric would initiate the same conflict, since Meredith is just looking for an excuse for the right of annulment. I still don't understand why he didn't just do that instead. Most of the people in the city are Andrastians, and will support the reconstruction of a chantry without any hesitation, so the destruction of the chantry does not work in the mage's favor. Considering all the humanitarian aid being given by the chantry, it only makes them look more like monsters for killing those people. He is only feeding the very fears that caused the oppression of mages to begin with.

[DreamerM]

River5 wrote...

So yes, Anders could very well have been bipolar, and going through these massive mood swings before his joining with Justice.

I admit it's very possible. But looking at this from a pure Storytelling perspective, if Anders was bipolar and in a mildly manic, or a normal, phase for Awakenings, then....why make him bipolar at all? It's basic storytelling that if something is Going To Be Important Later, then it should be introduced as early as possible, not sprung on the viewer at the 11th hour to explain some developments that wouldn't make sense otherwise.