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For those of you who believe that Anders' actions were justified...


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#101
LobselVith8

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HopeVessel wrote...

Ive been thinking and i just want to say a couple of things. When it comes to many of the other groups that have mages free like dalish clans, i dont think their situation can really compare to a place like ferelden or the free marches. The dalish and the rest of those places seem to be smaller communities where mages being free wouldnt be much of a problem, the less people there are the easier it is to control things, you wouldnt need as strict of laws or as many. I admit im not very knowledgeable when it comes to all those other places, but what i said would be my counter argument.

Also what if the chantry teachings are mostly correct. I know in the real world the idea of a creator isnt very plausible or relevant to anything (at least for me, i dont want an argument about that), but in the dragon age universe it may be true. Would anders still be justified? What would be right then?


The Rivain witches are free in the Kingdom of Rivain, there are free mages among the Chasind Wilders and the Avvar tribes, and even the morally bankrupt community of Haven had free mages among non-mages. The difference seems to be in how the Andrastian Chantry villifies mages as 'cursed' while these other societies don't, which explains why those other societies aren't dealing with a continential uprising.

And if there is a Maker, why wouldn't Anders be justified? Because he wanted to end a system of oppression that he views as slavery?

#102
Rifneno

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HopeVessel wrote...

Ive been thinking and i just want to say a couple of things. When it comes to many of the other groups that have mages free like dalish clans, i dont think their situation can really compare to a place like ferelden or the free marches. The dalish and the rest of those places seem to be smaller communities where mages being free wouldnt be much of a problem, the less people there are the easier it is to control things, you wouldnt need as strict of laws or as many. I admit im not very knowledgeable when it comes to all those other places, but what i said would be my counter argument.


A demon is a demon. Small communities only means there aren't as many people around to overpower it. You could say they'd be less likely to turn to a demon in small communities, but I don't see any evidence to indicate such. The oft-held notion that "small close-knit communities" where many don't even lock their doors are nearly crime free is a baseless one, and crime statistics indicate that. That includes big, "OMG WTF" crimes. The next time something truly horrific is unfolding on the news channel of your choice, listen to the interviews of random folk around and see how often you hear their shattered cries along the lines of, "but Columbine is a small close-knit community! How did this happen here?!" You'll find it's surprisingly common.

Also what if the chantry teachings are mostly correct.


What if Hitler's teachings were mostly correct? Gonna need a bit of substance to give genocidal madmen the benefit of the doubt on their philosophies. Especially since we've never been given any indication that Andraste herself said anything more on the topic than "magic should serve man, not rule over him" which is so far from "imprison those cursed mages, they're evil!" that you'd need a telescope with "NASA" on the side of it to see one from the other.

I know in the real world the idea of a creator isnt very plausible or relevant to anything (at least for me, i dont want an argument about that)


Wow. Just wow. I mean, what's going through someone's head when they write something like this?

#103
HopeVessel

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Rifneno wrote...

HopeVessel wrote...

Ive been thinking and i just want to say a couple of things. When it comes to many of the other groups that have mages free like dalish clans, i dont think their situation can really compare to a place like ferelden or the free marches. The dalish and the rest of those places seem to be smaller communities where mages being free wouldnt be much of a problem, the less people there are the easier it is to control things, you wouldnt need as strict of laws or as many. I admit im not very knowledgeable when it comes to all those other places, but what i said would be my counter argument.


A demon is a demon. Small communities only means there aren't as many people around to overpower it. You could say they'd be less likely to turn to a demon in small communities, but I don't see any evidence to indicate such. The oft-held notion that "small close-knit communities" where many don't even lock their doors are nearly crime free is a baseless one, and crime statistics indicate that. That includes big, "OMG WTF" crimes. The next time something truly horrific is unfolding on the news channel of your choice, listen to the interviews of random folk around and see how often you hear their shattered cries along the lines of, "but Columbine is a small close-knit community! How did this happen here?!" You'll find it's surprisingly common.

Also what if the chantry teachings are mostly correct.


What if Hitler's teachings were mostly correct? Gonna need a bit of substance to give genocidal madmen the benefit of the doubt on their philosophies. Especially since we've never been given any indication that Andraste herself said anything more on the topic than "magic should serve man, not rule over him" which is so far from "imprison those cursed mages, they're evil!" that you'd need a telescope with "NASA" on the side of it to see one from the other.

I know in the real world the idea of a creator isnt very plausible or relevant to anything (at least for me, i dont want an argument about that)


Wow. Just wow. I mean, what's going through someone's head when they write something like this?


I dont think you can compare the dalish clans to columbine. Because the dalish clans are independent from everyone else, where as columbine was a town in a state in a country. Plus the dalish are all bound by a "belief," where as im pretty sure all the people in columbine were living their own lives not really caring about anyone else. What this means is we cant look at the dalish and say "there is a good model on how a society with mages being free can work, lets copy it," along with all those other places because there are a ton of variables.

Was anders justified in blowing up the chantry and plunging the world into chaos with no real plan for stability. I think before a revolution starts you need an idea as to what you want from it, and how you to organize the revolution, because we all know there will be some mages that just want power like Grace. How will you deal with those mages? Anders acted out of hatred and vengeance, good may come from it but you risk becoming blind in the process. 

I dont see anything wrong with what i wrote, if it offends i am sorry. The point is that applying our logic to the dragon age universe is tricky, because we dont really know the whole story. There is a logic to how our universe works and runs, but what is dragon age's logic. What is the true history of thedas, of their world? Who are the old gods? Maybe the maker has a lot of power but not an infinite amount, maybe magic being so abundant wasnt what he wanted, because bad things happen because of it, idk. I mean what do the people in thedas really know? All they are doing is killing eachother when they should be trying to figure out what is true. But no, its all about power, and their selfish desires, and acting on horrible things like vegeance and hatred.

So yes, the whole world is messed up and is run horribly, people acting based on things that might not be true. Isabela, time to set sail, lets forget about everyone and all their foolishness.

#104
Ryzaki

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Truth. The smartest thing Hawke could've done was jump on Izzy's ship (or Costio's ship if Izzy refused to take it after the man died) and set sail for anywhere else.

#105
DreamerM

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Ryzaki wrote...

Truth. The smartest thing Hawke could've done was jump on Izzy's ship (or Costio's ship if Izzy refused to take it after the man died) and set sail for anywhere else.


Truth seconded. Except stab Meredith first, THEN leave. Save everyone some grief.

In my head!canon, Hawke tried talking Fenris and Merril into joining Isabella's crew and getting out of Kirkwall before it was too late. Tried talking to Anders too, but Justice wouldn't let him leave while Meredith still lived. And Aveline rocks Guard Captain too much to leave now.

But Hawkeself wouldn't leave. And wouldn't really be sure why not. Unfinished business, and a looming sense of doom.

#106
Fidget6

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non-post wrote...
This proves how radical the pro-mage group has become. 


Lol, taking fictional video game politics so seriously makes me laugh. XD

#107
Rifneno

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HopeVessel wrote...

I dont think you can compare the dalish clans to columbine. Because the dalish clans are independent from everyone else, where as columbine was a town in a state in a country. Plus the dalish are all bound by a "belief," where as im pretty sure all the people in columbine were living their own lives not really caring about anyone else. What this means is we cant look at the dalish and say "there is a good model on how a society with mages being free can work, lets copy it," along with all those other places because there are a ton of variables.


How is that to change the occasional yet inevitable abomination? Merrill flat out tells Hawke that Dalish mages sometimes go abomination too and they have to be killed. Their society being different doesn't mean they don't have abominations. They may have less. Then again they may have more. We don't have the data to make even an educated guess.

Was anders justified in blowing up the chantry and plunging the world into chaos with no real plan for stability. I think before a revolution starts you need an idea as to what you want from it, and how you to organize the revolution, because we all know there will be some mages that just want power like Grace. How will you deal with those mages? Anders acted out of hatred and vengeance, good may come from it but you risk becoming blind in the process.


Was that first sentence a question? He doesn't tell us a big grand plan for reform, no, but that doesn't mean he has no idea. Do remember that he expects to be killed right after the explosion, so if he had any ideas he'd probably leave them in that silly manifesto he keeps leaving all over the frickin' place. Which we never get to see, so it's anybody's guess.

Either way, it's not like he's in charge of an organized revolution. He tells Hawke flat out that he sees Hawke as the revolution's leader. And I just don't see the logic in saying he shouldn't fight oppression unless he has a big thorough plan for a replacement system after the unlikely victory. You know, the one he has no expectation of being alive to see or influence. Even if he DID have a plan, we'd just see post after post about how it doesn't work because someone came up with a situation where the system fails. You'd think the amount of crime, let alone larger matters like terrorism and tyranny, still going on in our modern society would clue people in that no system is perfect and the goal is to reduce bad stuff happening not flat out eliminate it... but no, people want an utterly Utopian system. And they want it from a guy who expects to be dead and quite possibly reviled, thus meaning all he can do is suggest it to someone who might make a difference in the chance of victory. Gonna have to disagree on that one.

#108
LobselVith8

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HopeVessel wrote...

I dont think you can compare the dalish clans to columbine. Because the dalish clans are independent from everyone else, where as columbine was a town in a state in a country. Plus the dalish are all bound by a "belief," where as im pretty sure all the people in columbine were living their own lives not really caring about anyone else. What this means is we cant look at the dalish and say "there is a good model on how a society with mages being free can work, lets copy it," along with all those other places because there are a ton of variables.


The main variable seems to be that these other societies don't preach that mages are cursed and that magic is sin, while the Chantry of Andraste does. The Rivain seers are kept close to the people and it can be inferred that they are revered from what Isabela said, the Chasind and Avvar celebrate the tale of the apostate Flemeth because it's their belief that she taught the original shamans magic, and the Dalish believe all the Arlathan elves were mages before contact with humanity. The schism seems to be the view of magic, which explains why preaching intolerance toward mages and clapping newly found mages in chains to bring them to the Circle of Magi has lead to an uprising across the continent of Thedas.

HopeVessel wrote...

Was anders justified in blowing up the chantry and plunging the world into chaos with no real plan for stability. I think before a revolution starts you need an idea as to what you want from it, and how you to organize the revolution, because we all know there will be some mages that just want power like Grace. How will you deal with those mages? Anders acted out of hatred and vengeance, good may come from it but you risk becoming blind in the process. 


Grace didn't want power, she was another insane Starkhaven mage like Decimus and Quentin (as Gascard had been looking for Quentin in the Starkhaven Circle according to the letter in his home) - Alain points out that Kirkwall is "even worse" than Starkhaven, so we can thank the Chantry controlled Circle for Leandra's death since this toxic enviornment lead to driving so many mages past the brink of sanity.

Considering that this system has lead to the murder of Hawke's mother by driving a Circle mage insane, would Anders be justified in doing nothing? Anders wants his people to be free from subjugation.

HopeVessel wrote...

The point is that applying our logic to the dragon age universe is tricky, because we dont really know the whole story. There is a logic to how our universe works and runs, but what is dragon age's logic. What is the true history of thedas, of their world? Who are the old gods? Maybe the maker has a lot of power but not an infinite amount, maybe magic being so abundant wasnt what he wanted, because bad things happen because of it, idk. I mean what do the people in thedas really know? All they are doing is killing eachother when they should be trying to figure out what is true. But no, its all about power, and their selfish desires, and acting on horrible things like vegeance and hatred.


It seems to be no different than the real world, where no one really knows what the "truth" is - even Morrigan points out that in Thedas, she doesn't believe in the Maker, and believes only in her own power. And I'd wager the mages think it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

HopeVessel wrote...

So yes, the whole world is messed up and is run horribly, people acting based on things that might not be true. Isabela, time to set sail, lets forget about everyone and all their foolishness.


As good as leaving "Idiot Ball Central" sounds, I'd rather see Hawke have the option to be proactive about what had happened - like leading a mage revolution if he sided with the mages and wanted to see the abolition of the Circle from Chantry control.

#109
Ryzaki

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DreamerM wrote...
Truth seconded. Except stab Meredith first, THEN leave. Save everyone some grief.

In my head!canon, Hawke tried talking Fenris and Merril into joining Isabella's crew and getting out of Kirkwall before it was too late. Tried talking to Anders too, but Justice wouldn't let him leave while Meredith still lived. And Aveline rocks Guard Captain too much to leave now.

But Hawkeself wouldn't leave. And wouldn't really be sure why not. Unfinished business, and a looming sense of doom.

 

Would have to stab Orsino's stupid self too. 

In my headcanon Hawke *tried* to leave but the boat kept breaking down. :crying: He started thinking he was cursed doomed forever to Kirkwall.  It makes his rage all the more funny (yay aggressive Hawke). 

#110
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Ryzaki wrote...

Would have to stab Orsino's stupid self too. 

In my headcanon Hawke *tried* to leave but the boat kept breaking down. :crying: He started thinking he was cursed doomed forever to Kirkwall.  It makes his rage all the more funny (yay aggressive Hawke). 


That gives me the mental image of Hawke swimming behind a large ship, trying to physically move it while his companions stand on the shore, watching in amusement.

"Hawke, that thing isn't going anywhere."
"It will too! It just needs a little push!"

#111
River5

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Rifneno wrote...

He doesn't tell us a big grand plan for reform, no, but that doesn't mean he has no idea. Do remember that he expects to be killed right after the explosion, so if he had any ideas he'd probably leave them in that silly manifesto he keeps leaving all over the frickin' place. Which we never get to see, so it's anybody's guess.

Either way, it's not like he's in charge of an organized revolution. He tells Hawke flat out that he sees Hawke as the revolution's leader. And I just don't see the logic in saying he shouldn't fight oppression unless he has a big thorough plan for a replacement system after the unlikely victory. You know, the one he has no expectation of being alive to see or influence. Even if he DID have a plan, we'd just see post after post about how it doesn't work because someone came up with a situation where the system fails. You'd think the amount of crime, let alone larger matters like terrorism and tyranny, still going on in our modern society would clue people in that no system is perfect and the goal is to reduce bad stuff happening not flat out eliminate it... but no, people want an utterly Utopian system. And they want it from a guy who expects to be dead and quite possibly reviled, thus meaning all he can do is suggest it to someone who might make a difference in the chance of victory. Gonna have to disagree on that one.


Yes, thank you, exactly.

You know what's funny.  I'm the type of person who tries to anticipate every possible scenario before taking any action, and have a plan/solution for all of them.  I blame this partly on my job, because since you have the life of a human being in your hands, you must be ready for anything that could go wrong in order to respond as fast as humanly possible to emergencies.

My partner, on the other hand, is the living embodiment of the saying:

"We'll cross that bridge when we get to the river".

It doesn't mean that he never plans anything.  Quite the contrary!  He just doesn't plan too far ahead or in too great details because if his initial plan doesn't go exactly as he expected it to, then everything else he had in mind after that will be scraped, or it will completely fail anyway.  It's a huge waste of time, and resources.

He has a vision of the goals he wants to achieve.  He thinks about the big lines of how he believes he could get there.  Then he says "Okay, this is what I want.  What are the first steps that must be taken in order to eventually get there?".  After that, he keeps following his vision, but adapts his plans in order to respond to new situations as they arise.

He knows that he'll never be able to remain in perfect control of any situation, and has come to expect the unexpectable without fearing what it could be.  He knows how to adapt, while keeping his eyes on his objectives.

Any attempt at bringing change involves taking risks.  When faced with a system that doesn't work (or is downright abusive), you can have a global vision of how things could be better, but you don't need to have worked all the kinks in specific details in order to try to set events in motion.  You do it step by step.

Okay, so my people are being enslaved.  By whom?  Why is it being allowed to happen?  Why has previous attempts at putting a stop to that situation failed?  How?  Who holds the power and allows said system to be kept in place?  Are they open to negociation?  Is there any way they could be forced to negociate?  How?  What are my own options?  What power do I have on my side?  If I don't, how could I force those who would have the power to oppose them to act?  How can I weaken their structure?

Objective #1: Remove an abusive dictatorship (the Chantry) from having absolute power over the regulation and control of magic.

How?  By making them lose control over 2 of their main factions, in order to weaken their social and political influence and power.

What are the steps that must be taken in order to achieve that?

First:  Remove the Grand Cleric from the equation, allowing the Knight-Commander to invoke the Right of Annullement, so that the mages will either be given with the option to "fight back and live"; or "submit and die".
What other variables must be considered: The possibility that the Templars might refuse to follow Meredith's orders, should they consider it too extreme a measure.  Also, other Chantry representatives could manifest their dissent with Meredith's actions, influencing the Templars opinion.
Solution?  Plunge the city in a state of shock, panic, and chaos strong enough that Meredith will be able to seize power and call for the RoA unopposed.

Second: Once the word of what happened in Kirkwall reaches the other Circles, they will fear what their own Templars might do to them in order to avenge those that were killed in Kirkwall (or, out of fear of what the mages they are watching over may do themselves), and the fragile trust/peace between Templars and Circle mages will be broken.

Beyond that, what will happen exactly and in details in open to speculation.  If the Chantry had been strong and fast enough to organize themselves in order to prevent other Circles from rising up against their Templars, than the revolution would have stopped there, and any future plans Anders could have made and described in details would have failed. 

So really, what would have been the point of  Anders telling everyone "Okay, so now Circles must be schools, and you must take the fundings for these schools from this specific source...  And the mages must be able to join the City Guards..."?

He doesn't even know what the outcome of his revolution will be.  That bridge hasn't been crossed yet!

I'm guessing that, in Anders' vision, his hopes are that the war between mages and Templars will weaken the Chantry to the point where it will be clear to the rest of the world that they are failing at their task (watching over mages, ensuring a fair use of magical abilities, and protecting the public from its abuses).

That the Chantry will thus no longer be perceived as "peacekeepers", and the Circles as prisons no longer a viable solution.  And that, for example, the King (or Queen) of Ferelden, the Empress of Orlais, etc., will want to meet with mages representatives / revolution leaders, in order to discuss alternatives, and reach a compromise.

Anders is setting things in motion and creating an opportunity for change.  He's weakening the source of power that, until then, has made such a change impossible (or very highly unlikely).

Beyond that, he is no longer in control.  He's either dead, or on the run somewhere.  Even if allowed to live and fight the revolution, he is no leader.  He's the catalyst.  He has already played his part.

Perhaps he could become a leader should the mages all want to rally behind him and follow his vision.  But it's not all that important.

The status quo was no longer tolerable, things had to change.  Will the alternative be any better once all has been fought?  Perhaps yes...  Perhaps no...  But at least someone came up with a vision, and tried to change something.  He sent the message to others that change was possible.

Even if the outcome of the revolution is less than what could have been hoped for, there will now be hope that the world can change if you are brave enough to take the risk.

Modifié par River5, 30 juin 2011 - 03:06 .


#112
Addai

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River5 wrote...
Anders is setting things in motion and creating an opportunity for change.  He's weakening the source of power that, until then, has made such a change impossible (or very highly unlikely).

Actually I consider it far more likely that there would be such a backlash that Anders has set the cause of mage freedom back, by providing another horror story that justifies everything the Chantry says about mages.

We don't know that, of course.  Maybe Fade spirits take over the rest of the Circles, too, and when all is said and done, Flemeth will dance on Thedas' ashes.  The End.

Anders' tossing a bomb into the middle of a conflagration is just stupidly, criminally irresponsible.

#113
HopeVessel

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Yeah im the type of person that likes to plan for every event, every situation, and every possibility. And i feel like this is the best thing to do, so of course im not going to like it when others dont do it. You said that if his initial plan doesn't work you would then need to scrap everything else, but thats not really a problem if you account for every variable, or at least a lot because of course you cant do all. Thats just who i am and i guess i got that way because i dont like to make mistakes and get embarassed.

And im wary of people who kill people to do "good," or do violence to stop violence. Or do bad things to stop bad things, like kidnap someone close to hawke. I lose trust in them, not complete loss of trust but some. So when it comes to anders, i think he should have waited, done something, at a different time. Of course the mages wouldnt be free as soon, but all the death and sadness that is taking place during the "status quo" wouldnt be his fault, he should have waited for a time where he could set his plans in motion with less violence and instability.

Because did his plan truly save more lives than if he waited for a better time to set things in motion, a time where he didnt have to blow up the chantry? Of course the kirkwall mages would still be living badly for that time, but was it that bad? Did he save more lives by having meredith invoke the right of annulment? Because all those deaths are his fault.

But him waiting for the right time (one where he isnt seen as a terrorist, as a mage who went crazy, where he killed innocents) to set his revolution in motion, doesnt make him responsible for all the evil that is taking place in between that time. Meaning if he didnt blow up the chantry but did something two years later, everything that was evil taking place in that time frame isnt his fault, or at least not as much. His inaction doesnt make him responsible, and really he is not inactive, he is planning for the best moment to save everyone, instead of doing evil to stop evil.

#114
Carmen_Willow

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I don't want to comment on the morality or immorality of Anders' actions.....but I do want to say one thing.

In history, there have been famous battle cries such as,

"Remember the Alamo."
"Remember the Maine."
"Remember Pearl Harbor."

(I'm certain that those of you who live in countries other than USA can think of some from your own history as well.)

And now, the ordinary folks of Thedas have,

"Remember the Kirkwall Chantry!"

Thanks, Anders. Way to go, Bud.

#115
River5

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HopeVessel wrote...

Yeah im the type of person that likes to plan for every event, every situation, and every possibility. And i feel like this is the best thing to do, so of course im not going to like it when others dont do it. You said that if his initial plan doesn't work you would then need to scrap everything else, but thats not really a problem if you account for every variable, or at least a lot because of course you cant do all. Thats just who i am and i guess i got that way because i dont like to make mistakes and get embarassed.

And im wary of people who kill people to do "good," or do violence to stop violence. Or do bad things to stop bad things, like kidnap someone close to hawke. I lose trust in them, not complete loss of trust but some. So when it comes to anders, i think he should have waited, done something, at a different time. Of course the mages wouldnt be free as soon, but all the death and sadness that is taking place during the "status quo" wouldnt be his fault, he should have waited for a time where he could set his plans in motion with less violence and instability.

Because did his plan truly save more lives than if he waited for a better time to set things in motion, a time where he didnt have to blow up the chantry? Of course the kirkwall mages would still be living badly for that time, but was it that bad? Did he save more lives by having meredith invoke the right of annulment? Because all those deaths are his fault.

But him waiting for the right time (one where he isnt seen as a terrorist, as a mage who went crazy, where he killed innocents) to set his revolution in motion, doesnt make him responsible for all the evil that is taking place in between that time. Meaning if he didnt blow up the chantry but did something two years later, everything that was evil taking place in that time frame isnt his fault, or at least not as much. His inaction doesnt make him responsible, and really he is not inactive, he is planning for the best moment to save everyone, instead of doing evil to stop evil.


Alright then.

With the socio-political context that there is in Kirkwall, and the same resources / leverage / influence that Anders has by the end of Act 3, what is the opportunity that you have waited for to start the revolution?

How would you have done it?

Where would you have started it?

I don't need you to formulate the plan until the very end...

Just give me your main objective, and the first few steps that you would have taken in order to stir events towards said objective.

I too am very uncomfortable with answering violence with violence.  In our modern world, such a course of action would be senseless since we have laws that protect our rights (depending where you're from), the opportunity to vote, the possibility to boycott organizations, etc.

But I'm even more so uncomfortable with Anders sitting quietly in his clinic thinking "Well, since I'm not the one directly responsible for the mages being imprisoned, beaten, murdered, made tranquil, etc.  That means that I'm not doing anything evil.  I'm not to blame!  My hands are clean.  I see attrocities committed around me but I'm not going to try anything to put a stop to it...  Hey!  I'm innocent because I'm only a witness and take no active part in my people being massacred unopposed."

#116
River5

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Carmen_Willow wrote...

I don't want to comment on the morality or immorality of Anders' actions.....but I do want to say one thing.

In history, there have been famous battle cries such as,

"Remember the Alamo."
"Remember the Maine."
"Remember Pearl Harbor."

(I'm certain that those of you who live in countries other than USA can think of some from your own history as well.)

And now, the ordinary folks of Thedas have,

"Remember the Kirkwall Chantry!"

Thanks, Anders. Way to go, Bud.


Remember the Plains of Abraham. ;)

#117
HopeVessel

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River5 wrote...

HopeVessel wrote...

Yeah im the type of person that likes to plan for every event, every situation, and every possibility. And i feel like this is the best thing to do, so of course im not going to like it when others dont do it. You said that if his initial plan doesn't work you would then need to scrap everything else, but thats not really a problem if you account for every variable, or at least a lot because of course you cant do all. Thats just who i am and i guess i got that way because i dont like to make mistakes and get embarassed.

And im wary of people who kill people to do "good," or do violence to stop violence. Or do bad things to stop bad things, like kidnap someone close to hawke. I lose trust in them, not complete loss of trust but some. So when it comes to anders, i think he should have waited, done something, at a different time. Of course the mages wouldnt be free as soon, but all the death and sadness that is taking place during the "status quo" wouldnt be his fault, he should have waited for a time where he could set his plans in motion with less violence and instability.

Because did his plan truly save more lives than if he waited for a better time to set things in motion, a time where he didnt have to blow up the chantry? Of course the kirkwall mages would still be living badly for that time, but was it that bad? Did he save more lives by having meredith invoke the right of annulment? Because all those deaths are his fault.

But him waiting for the right time (one where he isnt seen as a terrorist, as a mage who went crazy, where he killed innocents) to set his revolution in motion, doesnt make him responsible for all the evil that is taking place in between that time. Meaning if he didnt blow up the chantry but did something two years later, everything that was evil taking place in that time frame isnt his fault, or at least not as much. His inaction doesnt make him responsible, and really he is not inactive, he is planning for the best moment to save everyone, instead of doing evil to stop evil.


Alright then.

With the socio-political context that there is in Kirkwall, and the same resources / leverage / influence that Anders has by the end of Act 3, what is the opportunity that you have waited for to start the revolution?

How would you have done it?

Where would you have started it?

I don't need you to formulate the plan until the very end...

Just give me your main objective, and the first few steps that you would have taken in order to stir events towards said objective.

I too am very uncomfortable with answering violence with violence.  In our modern world, such a course of action would be senseless since we have laws that protect our rights (depending where you're from), the opportunity to vote, the possibility to boycott organizations, etc.

But I'm even more so uncomfortable with Anders sitting quietly in his clinic thinking "Well, since I'm not the one directly responsible for the mages being imprisoned, beaten, murdered, made tranquil, etc.  That means that I'm not doing anything evil.  I'm not to blame!  My hands are clean.  I see attrocities committed around me but I'm not going to try anything to put a stop to it...  Hey!  I'm innocent because I'm only a witness and take no active part in my people being massacred unopposed."


Im not going to lie, i dont really have a better plan right now, i havent spent much time thinking about it because i dont have a lot of free time in which that would be my top priority. 

But i have some ideas, first thing i would do is gather as much knowledge as possible about everything in the world, because thats the best way to make a good decision. Then ideally i would found a new land, not sure where, but we will explore. Then we create "our society" in that land. We then bring anyone who wants to join and see how it works out. If its utopia(if it works very well) we can allow people from other lands to come over and see how we live. Word spreads and in time hopefully the world will change in our favor. 

Of course i dont think its right to force people to live a certain way, so we wont change thedas directly, if people want to live like that then thats their choice. We will have people in other lands though looking for new citizens, if we see someone who wants to live with us, we will find a way for them to escape to our land. But we wont create a revolution in other lands.

So thats a rough outline.

#118
Carmen_Willow

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River5 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I don't want to comment on the morality or immorality of Anders' actions.....but I do want to say one thing.

In history, there have been famous battle cries such as,

"Remember the Alamo."
"Remember the Maine."
"Remember Pearl Harbor."

(I'm certain that those of you who live in countries other than USA can think of some from your own history as well.)

And now, the ordinary folks of Thedas have,

"Remember the Kirkwall Chantry!"

Thanks, Anders. Way to go, Bud.


Remember the Plains of Abraham. ;)


I just looked it  up.  Thank you. 

#119
River5

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HopeVessel wrote...

Im not going to lie, i dont really have a better plan right now, i havent spent much time thinking about it because i dont have a lot of free time in which that would be my top priority. 

But i have some ideas, first thing i would do is gather as much knowledge as possible about everything in the world, because thats the best way to make a good decision. Then ideally i would found a new land, not sure where, but we will explore. Then we create "our society" in that land. We then bring anyone who wants to join and see how it works out. If its utopia(if it works very well) we can allow people from other lands to come over and see how we live. Word spreads and in time hopefully the world will change in our favor. 

Of course i dont think its right to force people to live a certain way, so we wont change thedas directly, if people want to live like that then thats their choice. We will have people in other lands though looking for new citizens, if we see someone who wants to live with us, we will find a way for them to escape to our land. But we wont create a revolution in other lands.

So thats a rough outline.


And where do we find all these happy shiny people who will want to leave their own lands / families / livelihoods in order to go populate some isolated island (or new piece of far away land...  'cause if it's still uncharted / doesn't belong to anyone, it must be pretty far...) that is meant to become a role model for other countries?

And that also means abandoning all the mages in the Circles to their captors, and leaving the totalitarian regime that Kirkwall has become in power.

And now, I have this crazy image in my mind of a group of English people saying to Germany "Hey!  Look how our own people are happy over here!  Why don't you try to be more like us?" during WW2.

I understand the concept of preaching by example but...  With a dictatorship?  Really?

#120
Ryzaki

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Would have to stab Orsino's stupid self too. 

In my headcanon Hawke *tried* to leave but the boat kept breaking down. :crying: He started thinking he was cursed doomed forever to Kirkwall.  It makes his rage all the more funny (yay aggressive Hawke). 


That gives me the mental image of Hawke swimming behind a large ship, trying to physically move it while his companions stand on the shore, watching in amusement.

"Hawke, that thing isn't going anywhere."
"It will too! It just needs a little push!"

 

Priceless. 

He does that with tears in his eyes while Varric laughs at him. 

#121
CulturalGeekGirl

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Reposted from another thread, by request.
This historic quote which I have amusingly altered sums up why I always side with the mages at the end of the game, and have never managed to side with the Templars:

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the {mage's} great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the {Chantry} or the {Templar}, but the {mundane} moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the {mage} to wait for a ‘more convenient season."

I'm going to have to put this aside for future use. A quick google will present you with attribution, the only things I changed are the things in curly brackets.

While the situation that the quote refers to is not directly analgous, the relevant point for me is that at the beginning of every revolution, successful or not, there have always been people shouting "wait. It's not time yet. wait for a better chance." 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:02 .


#122
Rifneno

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Reposted from another thread, by request.
This historic quote which I have amusingly altered sums up why I always side with the mages at the end of the game, and have never managed to side with the Templars:

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the {mage's} great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the {Chantry} or the {Templar}, but the {mundane} moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the {mage} to wait for a ‘more convenient season."

I'm going to have to put this aside for future use. A quick google will present you with attribution, the only things I changed are the things in curly brackets.

While the situation that the quote refers to is not directly analgous, the relevant point for me is that at the beginning of every revolution, successful or not, there have always been people shouting "wait. It's not time yet. wait for a better chance." 


That is...  Magnificent.  A great summary of the situation, and sums up the attitudes of not just many characters, but many real posters who seem to think there could've been a peaceful solution to a thousand-year dictatorship.  The only thing that could make it better is if it addressed how most people will disregard any solution that isn't completely flawless.  If they can think of a situation where a mage might be tempted by a demon, or of a random farmer whose life is worsened by it, they spit on a system that would be a massive improvement over the current one.

#123
BHRamsay

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Rifneno wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Reposted from another thread, by request.
This historic quote which I have amusingly altered sums up why I always side with the mages at the end of the game, and have never managed to side with the Templars:

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the {mage's} great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the {Chantry} or the {Templar}, but the {mundane} moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the {mage} to wait for a ‘more convenient season."

I'm going to have to put this aside for future use. A quick google will present you with attribution, the only things I changed are the things in curly brackets.

While the situation that the quote refers to is not directly analgous, the relevant point for me is that at the beginning of every revolution, successful or not, there have always been people shouting "wait. It's not time yet. wait for a better chance." 


That is...  Magnificent.  A great summary of the situation, and sums up the attitudes of not just many characters, but many real posters who seem to think there could've been a peaceful solution to a thousand-year dictatorship.  The only thing that could make it better is if it addressed how most people will disregard any solution that isn't completely flawless.  If they can think of a situation where a mage might be tempted by a demon, or of a random farmer whose life is worsened by it, they spit on a system that would be a massive improvement over the current one.


*sarcastic*

I could not agree more, its a comfort to know who will be shoving me up against the wall when the revolution comes --- Several posters have already got my vote for the role of official Robespierre yet another person for whome THE CAUSE became more important then THE PEOPLE it was intended to help.

#124
River5

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Reposted from another thread, by request.
This historic quote which I have amusingly altered sums up why I always side with the mages at the end of the game, and have never managed to side with the Templars:

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the {mage's} great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the {Chantry} or the {Templar}, but the {mundane} moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the {mage} to wait for a ‘more convenient season."

I'm going to have to put this aside for future use. A quick google will present you with attribution, the only things I changed are the things in curly brackets.

While the situation that the quote refers to is not directly analgous, the relevant point for me is that at the beginning of every revolution, successful or not, there have always been people shouting "wait. It's not time yet. wait for a better chance." 


Thank you so much sweetie!  :wub:  And I fully agree.  I doubt that people are ever truly "ready" when a revolution comes.  But the more you wait, the more you allow abuses to be perpetuated, and give more and more power to the oppressors.

BHRamsay wrote...
I could not agree more, its a comfort to know who will be shoving me up against the wall when the revolution comes --- Several posters have already got my vote for the role of official Robespierre yet another person for whome THE CAUSE became more important then THE PEOPLE it was intended to help.


Except I don't see Anders as putting his cause above his people.  He was fighting for the future of all mages in Thedas, first and foremost.  The cause in this particular example IS the people.  It's allowing them a chance to make their voices heard, by crippling the totalitarian regime that has enslaved them for centuries.

Also, that quote above isn't from Robespierre, but from a freedom fighter who always put peaceful resistance above violence.

I really can't fathom Anders suddenly wishing to lead a group that would start executing every person (Chantry sisters, Kings, Queens, nobles, workers, peasants) that would refuse to actively side with mages, or consider ever offering them equal rights.

He blew up the Chantry not to punish Elthina, or to take revenge; but to allow Meredith to invoke the Right of Annulment, and thus force mages to fight back.

It wasn't one of many future acts of terrorism that he had planned.  It was a single strike in order to set events in motion.  That's it.  He's not leading a reign of terror, nor is he advocating for it.

And the first thing he does afterwards, is patiently wait to face the consequence for his actions.  He sees the taking of another's life as a crime demanding retribution.  Nevermind that the lives he took were sacrificed in order to prevent thousands more from dying, or having their freedom / lives stripped away from them.

And he's not even a revolution leader, nor does he expect to be.  He provided the opportunity for mages to lead their own revolution.

I don't see how Anders would share any similarities with Robespierre at all.

Modifié par River5, 06 juillet 2011 - 01:31 .


#125
The Baconer

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HopeVessel wrote...
And im wary of people who kill people to do "good," or do violence to stop violence.


Templars?