24 réponses à ce sujet

[Arshem]

 Which is more powerful in your  opinion and which do you use most of the time as a mage? I truly enjoy using both, yet I do wish to get maximum use out of the Final Thought staff since it takes so much in game gold to acquire.

[thendcomes]

They are both pretty great, but definitely Final Thought.

FT will always have more damage, as Malcolm's Honor caps out at 47. At lesser levels the difference is even more noticeable. Plus FT has a HUGE +33% nature damage, AND a rune slot to put Primeval Lyrium Rune. Additionally, there is much more +nature% damage in the game to boost it, including Poisonwood Locket and Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness.

Ironically, a mage that uses spirit damage would prefer FT to MH because of the huge +spirit bonus. The only situation where MH is clearly better is when autoattacking Spirit-weak demons and undead.

[Mr_Raider]

The answer is neither. You can get random staff drops that do fire, cold and electric damage with as high or higher base damage. You can stack more +% damage for electric, cold and fire than nature. For fire you can get well over 100%. For the end game, Malcolm's honor is better since Templars are weak to spirit.

The best staff is the one your enemey is weakest too. A few points in base damage is irrelevant.

[thendcomes]

The answer is neither to what question? LOL. Though you bring up a good point, you overestimate the power of generic staves. Generic staff damage is tied to your level.  52 damage is the highest I think I saw, but that's at level 26-27. What about the person who will never reach that high?

The best staff for autoattacking is usually the one your enemy is weakest to, but no generic has a Rune Slot for attacking ~35% faster!  That is significant compensation when combined with the +33% damage, and may possibly be even stronger.

What about spells?  Final Thought has the biggest +% damage in the game. If your focus is Spirit damage, Final Thought is the best in the game period. 4 top end damage from a generic staff will not compensate for the +4 magic and 33% bonus.  (Sadly Hawke has no Nature damage spells to benefit from!)

Lastly, you're misinformed on the soft cap on +elemental damage.  Maybe what you said is true for Warriors, but not so with Mages.  This is a simplistic comparison, since these are only end game amounts and don't factor in relative power while leveling, but what I found is that Nature is actually tied for first:


                Fire   Cold   Elec   Nature   Spirit
Staff          16         0        0          33         33
Head        10       10     10          10         10
Chest       24       24      24         24         17
Arms           4         4        3           4            4
Boots          6         6        0           6            6
Ammy       10       10        0         12           7
Belt              5         5        4          5            5
Ring          24         5     24           5            5
Ring            5         5        4           5            4


Fire - 104%
Cold - 69%
Electricity - 69%
Nature - 104%
Spirit - 91%


Cold and Elec have no +% damage on a weapon unless they downgrade to staves with 37 damage (Cold-blooded, +30% cold) or 42 damage (Corrupted Acolyte Staff, +16% elec).  Factoring these in would be counter intuittive.  

However, the comparison is mostly academic.  Why would you gear up your Hawke with sub-optimal generic gear just for your staff attack?  In general, it's not wise to stack any one particular element.  Unlike Warriors and Rogues, Mages have many elements they can take advantage of at the same time.  Unless you have a specific target in mind, it makes more sense is to gear up using the best gear available and spam those spells.  Your damage output will be far greater than focusing on a single element.

Modifié par thendcomes, 28 juin 2011 - 06:04 .

[Relix28]

thendcomes wrote...

They are both pretty great, but definitely Final Thought.

FT will always have more damage, as Malcolm's Honor caps out at 47. At lesser levels the difference is even more noticeable. Plus FT has a HUGE +33% nature damage, AND a rune slot to put Primeval Lyrium Rune. Additionally, there is much more +nature% damage in the game to boost it, including Poisonwood Locket and Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness.

Ironically, a mage that uses spirit damage would prefer FT to MH because of the huge +spirit bonus. The only situation where MH is clearly better is when autoattacking Spirit-weak demons and undead.

At lvl.26, MH does 50 spirit damage.  I don't think any of the "improves with lvl.up" items have a cap. They lvl.up until you reach your characters lvl. hard cap (wich is impossible by normal means), if I understand correctly.

One question though. The +33% nature damage on Final thought is basically useless on everyone except Merrill, as she is the only one that has nature spells, right? Or maybe, if you slap a nature rune on it, but then that's not much of a bonus then, since one nature rune doesn't really add much damage anywayz.

Modifié par Relix28, 28 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[thendcomes]

There's no cap, I just interpreted the algorithm wrong. I thought INTEGER function truncates, but I didn't test it in game, so I guess it rounds. The hard cap on experience without using mods or the console is actually 27.5 according to a recent poster http://social.biowar...8/index/7714092

The Nature modifier is not useless since the staff does Nature damage, but you're right that only Merrill has Nature spells.  I'm pretty sure those +element modifiers on weapons do not get affected by +element% modifiers.

Modifié par thendcomes, 28 juin 2011 - 05:37 .

[Arshem]

Thanks for the great work!

[Darchon_]

thendcomes wrote...

The answer is neither to what question? LOL. Though you bring up a good point, you overestimate the power of generic staves. Generic staff damage is tied to your level.  52 damage is the highest I think I saw, but that's at level 26-27. What about the person who will never reach that high?

The best staff for autoattacking is usually the one your enemy is weakest to, but no generic has a Rune Slot for attacking ~35% faster!  That is significant compensation when combined with the +33% damage, and may possibly be even stronger.

What about spells?  Final Thought has the biggest +% damage in the game. If your focus is Spirit damage, Final Thought is the best in the game period. 4 top end damage from a generic staff will not compensate for the +4 magic and 33% bonus.  (Sadly Hawke has no Nature damage spells to benefit from!)

Lastly, you're misinformed on the soft cap on +elemental damage.  Maybe what you said is true for Warriors, but not so with Mages.  This is a simplistic comparison, since these are only end game amounts and don't factor in relative power while leveling, but what I found is that Nature is actually tied for first:


                Fire   Cold   Elec   Nature   Spirit
Staff          16         0        0          33         33
Head        10       10     10          10         10
Chest       24       24      24         24         17
Arms           4         4        3           4            4
Boots          6         6        0           6            6
Ammy       10       10        0         12           7
Belt              5         5        4          5            5
Ring          24         5     24           5            5
Ring            5         5        4           5            4


Fire - 104%
Cold - 69%
Electricity - 69%
Nature - 104%
Spirit - 91%


Cold and Elec have no +% damage on a weapon unless they downgrade to staves with 37 damage (Cold-blooded, +30% cold) or 42 damage (Corrupted Acolyte Staff, +16% elec).  Factoring these in would be counter intuittive.  

However, the comparison is mostly academic.  Why would you gear up your Hawke with sub-optimal generic gear just for your staff attack?  In general, it's not wise to stack any one particular element.  Unlike Warriors and Rogues, Mages have many elements they can take advantage of at the same time.  Unless you have a specific target in mind, it makes more sense is to gear up using the best gear available and spam those spells.  Your damage output will be far greater than focusing on a single element.

Don't forget about talent points.
You can get +50% Fire,  and +25% Cold/Electricity/Spirit, but not nature.

I've found that against enemies that aren't fire immune, it's well worth it to keep your best fire staff (the Keepers Staff) and use the amazing +154% bonus to fire damage. Add in a nice rune of devastation for 10% more damage.
Use crowd control spells and fire spells for the most part, while backing them up with a bit of electricity and cold since you have +25% cold and +48% electricity due to your gear and talent points.

[thendcomes]

Ah of course, I missed considering that. That adds another ton of stuff to consider. I'd love to know how much +element% is equivalent to 1 top end damage, at least for something basic like staff attacks. Then you could see if it's worthwhile switching from the Torch (keeper's staff) to Final Touch based on how much +fire% versus +nature% you have. Spells would be another story.

[SuicidalBaby]

the best staff @ lvl 25
Magus' Goods, Wounded Coast
Staff of the Magister - 10.8g - rare(orange) random
50 cold damage
+17% fire damage
+10 cold damage
blood mage +1
42 mag/con required

25 is obtainable for quite a few players, so i figured I'd fill the gap for that random section.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 28 juin 2011 - 11:24 .

[Relix28]

thendcomes wrote...

There's no cap, I just interpreted the algorithm wrong. I thought INTEGER function truncates, but I didn't test it in game, so I guess it rounds. The hard cap on experience without using mods or the console is actually 27.5 according to a recent poster http://social.biowar...8/index/7714092

The Nature modifier is not useless since the staff does Nature damage, but you're right that only Merrill has Nature spells.  I'm pretty sure those +element modifiers on weapons do not get affected by +element% modifiers.

Wait, I thought FT did physical damage. Does it deal spirit damage also?

[Mr_Raider]

thendcomes wrote...



The Nature modifier is not useless since the staff does Nature damage, but you're right that only Merrill has Nature spells.  I'm pretty sure those +element modifiers on weapons do not get affected by +element% modifiers.

What's the status of Final Though post 1.03? Does it do spirit or nature? If it's nature, than I don't see the point in the spirit damage bonus. Only spirit bolt, horror and entropic cloud will benefit, and maybe one foot in the grave. Your auto attacks won't benefit, and for a spirit weak enemy you are better off with Malcolm's honor.

Also, you need to consider that spirit, electric, cold and fire get mastery bonuses, making them even better damage wise.

Not to say final though isn't a good staff. It's just not worth the cash IMHO.

[Darchon_]

Relix28 wrote...

thendcomes wrote...

There's no cap, I just interpreted the algorithm wrong. I thought INTEGER function truncates, but I didn't test it in game, so I guess it rounds. The hard cap on experience without using mods or the console is actually 27.5 according to a recent poster http://social.biowar...8/index/7714092

The Nature modifier is not useless since the staff does Nature damage, but you're right that only Merrill has Nature spells.  I'm pretty sure those +element modifiers on weapons do not get affected by +element% modifiers.

Wait, I thought FT did physical damage. Does it deal spirit damage also?

Final Thought does 48 nature damage as of the latest patch

[Mr_Raider]

If I'm to believe the accuracy of this post:

http://social.biowar...8/index/6681852

Only arcane horrors and desire demons are immune to spirit while dalish, undead (includin revenants), spiders, golems and one of the possible end bosses are immune to nature. On the other hand, both bosses are weak to spirit.

[Relix28]

Darchon_ wrote...

Relix28 wrote...

thendcomes wrote...

There's no cap, I just interpreted the algorithm wrong. I thought INTEGER function truncates, but I didn't test it in game, so I guess it rounds. The hard cap on experience without using mods or the console is actually 27.5 according to a recent poster http://social.biowar...8/index/7714092

The Nature modifier is not useless since the staff does Nature damage, but you're right that only Merrill has Nature spells.  I'm pretty sure those +element modifiers on weapons do not get affected by +element% modifiers.

Wait, I thought FT did physical damage. Does it deal spirit damage also?

Final Thought does 48 nature damage as of the latest patch

Good to know. Thnx for the info.

[thendcomes]

Mr_Raider wrote...

If I'm to believe the accuracy of this post:

http://social.biowar...8/index/6681852

Only arcane horrors and desire demons are immune to spirit while dalish, undead (includin revenants), spiders, golems and one of the possible end bosses are immune to nature. On the other hand, both bosses are weak to spirit.

Shades.  I tried a Spirit Mastery build in Act 2 and the whole damn act is shades.  

[thendcomes]

Mr_Raider wrote...
What's the status of Final Though post 1.03? Does it do spirit or nature? If it's nature, than I don't see the point in the spirit damage bonus. Only spirit bolt, horror and entropic cloud will benefit, and maybe one foot in the grave. Your auto attacks won't benefit, and for a spirit weak enemy you are better off with Malcolm's honor.

It does Nature.  What's not to get?  If you use Spirit spells, it gives a huge boost.  If not, then it doesn't do as much for you.  Walking Bomb and maybe Blood Splatter do Spirit as well.

Mr_Raider wrote...
Not to say final though isn't a good staff. It's just not worth the cash IMHO.

When entering Act 3, it's the best staff.  Towards the end of Act 3, Malcolm's Honor and generics catch up.  What staff to use absolutely depends on what you're facing, but of the best staves, the Final Thought is the only candidate for the Primeval Lyrium Rune, which ups its potential considerably and tips the scales in its favor. 

There's no one staff that's best for every situation, but I think Final Thought comes the closest.  If that is or isn't worth the money, then that's up to you.  

Modifié par thendcomes, 29 juin 2011 - 03:12 .

[Mr_Raider]

thendcomes wrote...


It does Nature.  What's not to get?  If you use Spirit spells, it gives a huge boost.  If not, then it doesn't do as much for you.  Walking Bomb and maybe Blood Splatter do Spirit as well.

Sadly no. Walking bomb and blood splatter damage are based of enemy health. Even spirit mastery doesn't seem to help.

[thendcomes]

Gross. So only the tick gets a boost? That's pitiful. I saw the note on the wiki that says [PS3] but I thought it was a console specific bug. Never actually tested it.

[kromify]

just avoid staves that do physical dmg...

[Relix28]

Can someone (on Xbox360) confirm, if The Final Thought actually does nature damage? I just bought it (begining of act 3), but it seems that it is still a physical damage staff. The description saiz it does 48 physical damage and the damage numbers shown when attacking are coloured white (for physical damage). I know it is supposed to be a nature staff as of 1.02/1.03, but it is not so in my game(s).

Modifié par Relix28, 30 juin 2011 - 08:52 .

[thendcomes]

If you already were in Act 3 when you applied the patch, it will still be physical. It may even still be physical for any game already started, not sure.

[Relix28]

I started 2 new games after the patch and both have physical damage on Final Thought.

I went through some 1.02/1.03 patch notes and came across this.
- The items known as Final Thought, Sataareth, Sundering, and Trepanner's Gift now have damage types that match their elemental damage bonuses.
I can comfirm that Sataareth still does fire damage (instead of physical), Sundering still does electricity damage (instad of physical) and Final Thought still does physical (instead of nature). It seems that these fixes didn't apply to my post-patch created games. Can anyone else confirm this?

[thendcomes]

Maybe it's an XBOX only bug. It works on the PC.



Those items got +damage% to correspond with their element. I thought it was worded strangely since we thought TFT was getting nature damage to correspond to its +damage%.

Modifié par thendcomes, 30 juin 2011 - 10:56 .

[Relix28]

Oh, you are right. It is the other way around. I completely missed that. Sundering got +16% electricity damage and Sataareth got +12% fire damage (dunno about the bow, since all my imports have Dalsih recruited).
So the only problem seems to be The Final Thought with it's physical damage then. It is basically the same as it was pre-patch. I did manage to fix it (add nature damage) via GFF editor though.