725 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

I have my own opinion of what's going on and what needs to be said and done. But after reading the entirety of this thread, I've decided that a large enough portion of the posters here do not deserve to read it. Unless and until you all stop being naughty in the wrong way and start being naughty in the right way, you will not benefit from my wisdom.

Except for this tidbit: It's really premature to say what Bioware is up to with DA2 DLC's and even DA3.

You've been warned.

[hoorayforicecream]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

I'm being civil, I'm not threatening anyone or calling names to users or devs.
But whatever.

Never said you weren't. Just clarifying that's what the devs (and the game's defenders even) want. Most folks aren't naive enough to think DA2 is perfect, but there's a huge gap between what's said and how it's said. Many people agree on what some of the major issues with DA2 are. The difference is how much said issues affect the gameplay experience, which is entirely subjective. It's cool if people disagree, but disagreement is not (nor should it be) free license to not be civil.

In any case, I thank you for your civility. It is appreciated.

[Mr.House]

xkg wrote...


Stop being dense. Your logic is failing you completly.
Neither of you mention the platform.



He said that there is a 100 review. You didnt ask him what platform is he talking about.
I don't care what are you playing on. You have said that there is NO SUCH REVIEW ON METACRITIC. But there is.
Thats all i have to say to you.

You know, if you want to try to be a smart ass, at least try to read the old post and read everything, not pick the ones you like, ignore the ones and then try to make people like like morons. This was the post, which was talking about the PC version. So are you going to continue to make your self look like a moron or are you going to try and say how my logic is false when I have the orginal post where this started?

Mr.House wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
"Critically successful"  = critics liked it. Metacritic score: 82.

Why, of course. After paying off the critics there had to be some "good" reviews.
Like "The Escapist" one. Heh.

Bottom Line: A pinnacle of role-playing games with well-designed mechanics and excellent story-telling, Dragon Age II is what videogames are meant to be.

Still makes me laugh.

Yes! Because people enjoyed it, it must mean they where paid off! Really?

I have said several times that I don't have any problems with people liking the game. To each their own.
But as a "professional" critic, giving it a 100 and saying that it's the pinnacle of the RPG genre...well.........

That review is also not listed on metacritic

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 juin 2011 - 12:20 .

[xkg]

Mr.House wrote...

xkg wrote...


Stop being dense. Your logic is failing you completly.
Neither of you mention the platform.



He said that there is a 100 review. You didnt ask him what platform is he talking about.
I don't care what are you playing on. You have said that there is NO SUCH REVIEW ON METACRITIC. But there is.
Thats all i have to say to you.

You know, if you want to try to be a smart ass, at least try to read the old post and read everything, not pick the ones you like, ignore the ones and then try to make people like like morons. This was the post, which was talking about the PC version. So are you going to continue to make your self look like a moron or are you going to try and say how my logic is false when I have the orginal post where this started?

Mr.House wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
"Critically successful"  = critics liked it. Metacritic score: 82.

Why, of course. After paying off the critics there had to be some "good" reviews.
Like "The Escapist" one. Heh.

Bottom Line: A pinnacle of role-playing games with well-designed mechanics and excellent story-telling, Dragon Age II is what videogames are meant to be.

Still makes me laugh.

Yes! Because people enjoyed it, it must mean they where paid off! Really?

I have said several times that I don't have any problems with people liking the game. To each their own.
But as a "professional" critic, giving it a 100 and saying that it's the pinnacle of the RPG genre...well.........

That review is also not listed on metacritic

Ahh you know what ? Quote me YOUR post where did YOU mention that YOU are talking about the PC or just ....  ...

Modifié par xkg, 30 juin 2011 - 12:23 .

[adlocutio]

Theagg wrote...

But then again quite a few of us don't have an issue with 'waves' at all. Not in the sense that waves of enemies are by default a failing. Or an annoyance. They aren't. They do not destroy the ability to play tactically either, this is just a misnomer. Or a grievance from some who fail to come up with the required tactics to deal with them.

Waves used to compensate for a lack of content, difficulty, or complexity, as was done in DA2, is by default a failing.  Furthermore, when waves are implemented they should expect player tactics such as repositioning to chokepoints.  But when I did this in DA2, even on nightmare, it utterly broke the difficulty.  Like an exploit.

Apart from that, the combat, from nightmare level perspective is largely identical to that of Origins. The visual style has changed but the core remains.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  The two games play completely differently, especially on nightmare.  Origins emphasized position, whereas DA2 emphasized movement.  Whether the "core" is the same is largely immaterial.  How it was implemented is what really matters.  Nightmare in DA2 was tedious, at best, for me.  I had a very different experience in Origins.

I'm also critical of people who decry the reduction in the ability to 'personalize' their character from the start in DA2 and point out this loss as a sign, as they see it, that DA2 has moved away from being an RPG. (In essence what they are saying is that being able to customise your character is a primary requisite of an RPG) Then at some other point praise games like The Witcher 2 as being better RPG titles, games Bioware should be looking towards.

DA2 HAS moved away from being an RPG. It is acknowledged by Bioware.  It's now an action-rpg.  No, people are not saying that PC customization is the sine qua non of roleplaying.  But customization IS necessary in order to create your own role.  And it has been long accepted that a major feature of RPGs, Bioware's in particular, is the creation and definition of a unique PC by the player. 

You can roleplay in Halo, or any game with a player representative in game, but that doesn't make it an RPG.  The object of an RPG is, by definition, roleplaying.  When you hybridize the RPG, such as "story-based RPG" or "Action-RPG," you necessarily diminish the importance of roleplaying.  Why? Because the story or action now has to have an important role.  Can you roleplay in a story or during action? Sure. But the degree of roleplaying is diminished because choices have been made for you - choices in which your PC had no say. Roleplaying requires neither story nor combat. I'm not, however, saying that would make a good video game.

For example, in DA2, pretty much every confrontation leads to combat.  Such is the nature of the action-RPG.  Don't tell me that doesn't diminish roleplaying.  Has it occurred to you that non-combat solutions are equally valid in an RPG?  Why not include them?  Why can't it be fun to use politics, or religion, or the threat of force to solve problems?  In fact the premise of DA2's story would have been uniquely suited to that.

[Stanley Woo]

Mr. house, xkg, please retreat to your respective corners and agree to disagree. Your sniping at each other really doesn't help this discussion. Take it to private if you need to get the last word on one another.

[Aaleel]

Mr.House wrote...

Sorry, buy saying reviewers where paid off because they gave the game is a positive review does not help your case. You could be tellnig the truth and you really wanted to like DA2 and you did judge it fairly but comments like that don't help your cases.

Now I'm not saying that review was true(Personly, I don't think DA2 deserves anything above a 9.0) but not everyone who rated the game positive is blind or paid off.

I thought the 100 was too high and the 25 was too low.  But the game getting a 100 is not why I thought the review was paid for.

I laughed the first time I read this, and I am laughing now

Bottom Line: A pinnacle of role-playing games with well-designed mechanics and excellent story-telling, Dragon Age II is what videogames are meant to be.

Like many people, I moved
to a new place after college. I didn't know a soul in New York City or
how to get around, and just buying groceries was an impossible task. By
the time I left ten years later, I knew that town like nobody's
business. I wasn't anyone special, but if you dropped me anywhere in the
five boroughs, I could tell you a memory, which corner to avoid, and
where to get a slice - the kind of familiarity you only get after
exploring a location until it feels like home. That's what Kirkwall will
feel like after playing Dragon Age II.

but you'll learn where to
buy the best robes, which **** to befriend in the Blooming Rose, and to
walk the other way if you see a horned Qunari or a scowling Templar
coming towards you, especially if you're an apostate mage.

Qunari walked the street, and Templars knew you were an apostate and reacted, really?  That is one of my favorite quotes from this nonsense.

The triumphant sound that plays when you discover a new source of raw lyrium or a new recipe makes you feel good.

Ok I lied, this may be my favorite one.

Modifié par Aaleel, 30 juin 2011 - 12:29 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Pretty sure this is not a divisive issue at all. I'm actually quite certain the entire community want companion equipping. May seem like a sweeping generalisation, but i've never run into anyone who wanted the companion outfits to be completely set.

Then you haven't been on these boards for long.

Been here a very long time, never seen one person state they wish to have DA2 style armour customisation.

I've seen MANY complaint threads about this game, and MANY praise threads about this game. The former always includes a rip on DA2 customisation, and the latter never praises the armour customisation.

It isn't a divisve issue. Perhaps people don't want to go back to the complete customisation of origins, but i'm quite sure no one wants the restrictions laid by DA2.

[xkg]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Mr. house, xkg, please retreat to your respective corners and agree to disagree. Your sniping at each other really doesn't help this discussion. Take it to private if you need to get the last word on one another.

Of course, Sir. Sorry for that.  It's just ... my patience is big, but not unlimited .. ehhh ok.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aaleel wrote...
I laughed the first time I read this, and I am laughing now

Is that really a professional review or is it a satire of somesort?

[adlocutio]

JohnEpler wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

We'll see if you actually listened in the upcoming DLC.

Which is precisely what I said previously in this thread. I can say 'we're listening, we're listening' until i'm blue in the face, but it won't be until we release new content that you'll see what that means. I'm not suggesting you just take my word for it - in fact, I've suggested exactly the opposite in this very thread.

And that will have to suffice.

I appreciate that you, moreso than anyone else I've seen, take the time to really engage, even though you  are repeatedly put in unwinnable situations.

What I would really like - and I'm sure many others would, too - is to engage the devs in the ideas realm so as to understand your thinking along the lines of RPG concepts that are important to us.  And we could do so without necessitating definitive statements about upcoming content.  I mean, I know many of you grew up in the AD&D days and read Tolkien et al, so why don't we talk in generalities about some of the good things we've lost.

In my experience, roleplaying is often a counterintuitive experience, and it is not always immediately apprehended by people new to the experience.  It takes experience to be done well.  I don't know, it just seems like everyone wants the easy way out and instant gratification , when these same people might find a deeper, more thoughtful experience infinitely more rewarding.

I thought Bioware really understood that, which explained why they took so much care with their stories and characters.  Has that changed?

[Zcorck]

JohnEpler wrote...

Which is precisely what I said previously in this thread. I can say 'we're listening, we're listening' until i'm blue in the face, but it won't be until we release new content that you'll see what that means. I'm not suggesting you just take my word for it - in fact, I've suggested exactly the opposite in this very thread.

And that will have to suffice.

While I may not be a fan of the current direction you guys are taking the DA franchise, I wish to thank you nevertheless for taking your time and being a frequent (calming at least imo) presence on these forums considering that we are not the easiest of people to communicate with.

So... how's it coming along trying to keep the rpg crowd while attracting a more action-oriented one? If that is the right term, and not being sarcastic although it could probably be interpreted as such.

Any news as to what kind of engine BioWare will implement for a sequel?

[Zcorck]

oops went for edit and pressed quote.  

bah, agree with adlocutio to sum it up. 

Modifié par Zcorck, 30 juin 2011 - 12:54 .

[twincast]

I had a rather long post written about non-combat changes DA2 did it didn't need to do and I'm not too happy about, but can deal with, slightly prettier hands, combat changes that are good in principle, but went way too far, the outdated abomination that is enemy waves, shortage of areas coupled with abundance of bugs and last but not least the childish "sex scenes" in DA2 after DA:O's slightly stiff, but otherwise well implemented ones compared to The Witcher going from juvenile bragging rights cards in the first game to very well done scenes in the sequel, but Firefox killed it.

rolson00 wrote...

the era it was set people feared albionos as deamons or had no souls so they killed them on sight.

This quote alone consists of fallacy upon fallacy upon fallacy.
The game has its problems, but your opinions about The Witcher 2 are as ignorant as can be and thus irrelevant. Go try educate yourself on it (preferrably first hand) before bringing it up again if you want to be taken seriously.

[Aaleel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
I laughed the first time I read this, and I am laughing now

Is that really a professional review or is it a satire of somesort?

I'm sorry to say it's a serious review.  And I haven't even mentioned quotes from the video review.

the sequel takes it place among the best looking games of its generation..

Read and watch for yourself

http://www.escapistm...n-Age-II-Review

[Demx]

Zcorck wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Which is precisely what I said previously in this thread. I can say 'we're listening, we're listening' until i'm blue in the face, but it won't be until we release new content that you'll see what that means. I'm not suggesting you just take my word for it - in fact, I've suggested exactly the opposite in this very thread.

And that will have to suffice.

While I may not be a fan of the current direction you guys are taking the DA franchise, I wish to thank you nevertheless for taking your time and being a frequent (calming at least imo) presence on these forums considering that we are not the easiest of people to communicate with.

So... how's it coming along trying to keep the rpg crowd while attracting a more action-oriented one? If that is the right term, and not being sarcastic although it could probably be interpreted as such.

Any news as to what kind of engine BioWare will implement for a sequel?

Keeping the action oriented crowd can probably only be determined by the results of the next game and DLC. Though I doubt we'll be told an actual figure, so we'll have to rely on comments just like before.

[Chuvvy]

"And to get lots of new fans we lost lots of old fans."

[Maverick827]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


Been here a very long time, never seen one person state they wish to have DA2 style armour customisation.

He's got you there, Dave.  He hasn't seen them, so they don't exist.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aaleel wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
I laughed the first time I read this, and I am laughing now

Is that really a professional review or is it a satire of somesort?

I'm sorry to say it's a serious review.  And I haven't even mentioned quotes from the video review.

the sequel takes it place among the best looking games of its generation..

Read and watch for yourself

http://www.escapistm...n-Age-II-Review

*rubs temples*

I don't know if I should laugh, or cry. So instead I'll react with an empty void of silence, very much similar to my reaction when the DA2 credits rolled.

[Lord_Valandil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
I laughed the first time I read this, and I am laughing now

Is that really a professional review or is it a satire of somesort?

I'm sorry to say it's a serious review.  And I haven't even mentioned quotes from the video review.

the sequel takes it place among the best looking games of its generation..

Read and watch for yourself

http://www.escapistm...n-Age-II-Review

*rubs temples*

I don't know if I should laugh, or cry. So instead I'll react with an empty void of silence, very much similar to my reaction when the DA2 credits rolled.

I prefer to laugh. Hard.

But then...when I finish laughing...I cry.

[Demx]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*rubs temples*

I don't know if I should laugh, or cry. So instead I'll react with an empty void of silence, very much similar to my reaction when the DA2 credits rolled.

lol Don't forget the occasional thunder in the background.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Siradix wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*rubs temples*

I don't know if I should laugh, or cry. So instead I'll react with an empty void of silence, very much similar to my reaction when the DA2 credits rolled.

lol Don't forget the occasional thunder in the background.

I thought that was the sound of my veins occasionally popping out.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2011 - 01:19 .

[Morroian]

adlocutio wrote...

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  The two games play completely differently, especially on nightmare.  Origins emphasized position, whereas DA2 emphasized movement.  Whether the "core" is the same is largely immaterial.  How it was implemented is what really matters.  Nightmare in DA2 was tedious, at best, for me.  I had a very different experience in Origins.

The mechanics are largely the same the difference is a matter of emphasis eg. actions being front loaded. I still find positioning to be important in DA2, along with the requirement to reposition. 

DA2 HAS moved away from being an RPG. It is acknowledged by Bioware.  It's now an action-rpg.  No, people are not saying that PC customization is the sine qua non of roleplaying.  But customization IS necessary in order to create your own role.  And it has been long accepted that a major feature of RPGs, Bioware's in particular, is the creation and definition of a unique PC by the player.  
[...]
For example, in DA2, pretty much every confrontation leads to combat.  Such is the nature of the action-RPG.  Don't tell me that doesn't diminish roleplaying.  Has it occurred to you that non-combat solutions are equally valid in an RPG?  Why not include them?  Why can't it be fun to use politics, or religion, or the threat of force to solve problems?  In fact the premise of DA2's story would have been uniquely suited to that.

I don't think DA2 is much different from DAO in this regard. Anyway an action rpg is still an rpg, there is still an emphasis on creating and shaping the character of Hawke, especially through dialogue and character interaction. Especially in comparison to say ME2 which IMHO just barely qualifies as an rpg.

[-Skorpious-]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*rubs temples*

I don't know if I should laugh, or cry. So instead I'll react with an empty void of silence, very much similar to my reaction when the DA2 credits rolled.

Pretty much this. Literally. The credits didn't register when I completed the game, so I sat  in complete silence listening to the empty, depressing rumble of the ambient background thunder. 

How ironic. 

[Brockololly]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
The goal of any company that sells product is not to sell more product, the goal is to make money. You don't make as much money by selling 10 million units product that cost $X each and sell for $X+1 when you can sell 3 million units that cost $X each and sell for $X+5. Sure, there is some volume involved, but the goal isn't just to move units, it's to make money.

I have no clue as to how financially successful DA2 was- it likely was good enough given the much shorter dev time but none of us will ever know if it met any of BioWare/EA's internal projections and/or goals.

But its not a stretch to see that most likely DA2 has not and likely will not sell as many copies as Origins. For a second game in a franchise I don't think there is any way to think that as a good or desirable result.

And with the increased prevalence of post release content and the ability for devs to make more money off of DLC which requires that base game, they do need to sell copies of the base game or else no one will buy the DLC.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
I laughed the first time I read this, and I am laughing now [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Is that really a professional review or is it a satire of somesort?

The Escapist's DA2 review is one of the most embarassing and inane video game reviews I've ever seen. Its one thing to love a game, but I don't think there is any game out there deserving of a perfect score and the amount of hyperbole in that review is insane.

But the issue with that review is that along with the PC Gamer review, The Escapist review was one of the early reviews that came out way earlier than most other media outlets. Its no mistake that a good number of review sites/magazines/blogs did not get an advance review copy of DA2 while the most positive and glowing reviews came from those publications that got advance copies. As I recall, the guys at Giant Bomb specifically mentioned how they found it odd BioWare didn't send them a review copy of DA2. Thats just the video games industry though, shady as it is.



Tangentially related to DA2 short term sales versus long term damage to the DA/BioWare brand name- take this interview with EA CEO John Riccitiello from 2009:

"A poor sequel in a solid franchise may still sell well, because it takes multiple installments for the consumer base to develop an impression of a property significant enough as to impact sales, he asserts. And it  goes both ways: It may take more than one improved-quality sequel to  regain gamers' faith after an initial poor experience, the CEO adds.

"Back in the '90s we made a great game... the following year, our game  was down on quality, but we also sold a lot," he says. "[It took] one or two poor games to actually turn success to failure of a franchise.  Consumers read last year’s Metacritic to buy this year’s game."

BioWare cares about the Metacritic because EA cares about it. Now look at DA- Awakening was considered average by most people while some really disliked it. DAO's DLC was widely considered often underwhelming at best. Then you add DA2's lukewarm reception to the mix.  Its just sad to see this franchise going the wrong way when it sadly models many of EA's past muckups of previously solid franchises.

Modifié par Brockololly, 30 juin 2011 - 01:11 .