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Wow, it still doesn't look like that to me even though I now know what it was supposed to be. While playing, I thought it was some kind of poorly made cloth mesh hung on the wall held up with wood beams.Maria Caliban wrote...
No. The dark brown support beams are meant to be wood while the lighter tan surface is supposed to be stone.lv12medic wrote...
That was supposed to be wood?
Modifié par dheer, 30 juin 2011 - 02:50 .
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think most are saying it's annoying.
What a friendly response. Charming. You were talking about "tactical positioning", my dear friend. So, whether you like it or not, my reply was addressing that.ipgd wrote...
What does any of that have to do with what I said? Is this just your canned response for whenever you see the word "tactical" in a DA2 thread? Did I inadvertantly blow some kind of dog whistle?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Except that DA2 doesn't allow you to play those waves tactically. That has to do with the absence of the top-view and the teleporting of rogues and the what-ever-you-want-to-call-the-teleporting-of-mages. Also, unlike in DA:O you cannot prevent your companions from using talents and spells in DA2. That's required for planning stamina and mana use and is required to keep the cooldown timers under control. So in the end you are fighting a random number generator instead. No, thank you.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 juin 2011 - 02:52 .
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
It's like I'm in a time machine talking to French generals in the 1930s who argued building a fortress on the border of Germany was a good idea...
I wonder what would be harder. Convincing them that Maginot was a bad idea? Or that their brilliant plan to put their army in a bloody valley was stupid?
Joy Divison wrote...
I'm amazed with all the flaws DA2 had people are still ****ing about the waves.
The amount of competence required to adapt and defeat enemies in waves really isn't that large.
It's like I'm in a time machine talking to French generals in the 1930s who argued building a fortress on the border of Germany was a good idea...
mrcrusty wrote...
I suspect you are referring to button mash as in a physical activity - a large amount of button presses/mouse clicks along with good reflex skills. In which case, competitive RTS games would probably be the biggest button mashers on the planet.Theagg wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You said absolute requirement and that tactics are secondary. That, at least on hard, would get you killed in the prologue pretty quickly.
In melee, if the game has an absolute requirement, it's positioning (and knowing how to build your Geralt). If you are positionned wrong, even a nekker (small imp thing) can 3 shot kill you.
What this comes down to I suspect is what my defintion of 'button mashing' is compared to others definition. Something I will have to go ponder upon.
What KoP and what I see as button mashing is of the fighting game or Dynasty Warriors variety when the AI is particularly unskilled. That is, frantically mashing buttons with no sense of direction or tactical prowess and still coming out on top due to the game's lack of difficulty.
ie. Kiting. I don't call that a combat tactic. I call that the absense of a combat tactic. And its not a solution to the problem anyway. Thankully, DA2's normal setting is so brain-dead easy, you don't have to make your mage kite for more than a few seconds before you're able to go back on the offensive with a spell.ipgd wrote...
I do not particularly like the waves system, but it boggles my mind how people can allegedly play the game the entire way through and not pick up on extremely simple things like MOVE THE **** OUT OF THE WAY,KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That's not really tactical if you just know where they are going to spawn, with you knowing the same old pattern and you end up having to repeat the damn process almost every single fight.
Yea, it's easy to deal with. I played on hard and I didn't find it difficult, just irritating and annoying. I got pissed off even when I win.
Waves can be fine if used sparingly. When it's actually surprising that it forces you to quickly adapt. But not when it happens every single time. There's no tactics in repeating the same old thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Theagg wrote...
mrcrusty wrote...
I suspect you are referring to button mash as in a physical activity - a large amount of button presses/mouse clicks along with good reflex skills. In which case, competitive RTS games would probably be the biggest button mashers on the planet.Theagg wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You said absolute requirement and that tactics are secondary. That, at least on hard, would get you killed in the prologue pretty quickly.
In melee, if the game has an absolute requirement, it's positioning (and knowing how to build your Geralt). If you are positionned wrong, even a nekker (small imp thing) can 3 shot kill you.
What this comes down to I suspect is what my defintion of 'button mashing' is compared to others definition. Something I will have to go ponder upon.
What KoP and what I see as button mashing is of the fighting game or Dynasty Warriors variety when the AI is particularly unskilled. That is, frantically mashing buttons with no sense of direction or tactical prowess and still coming out on top due to the game's lack of difficulty.
Much like that yes. Not mindless rapid button pushing but the requirement to constantly undertake numerous and various key combos or single key strikes in real time to pull off moves, undertake actions and attack etc. With no true tactical pause.
This is one reason why I really dislike competitive RTS games
Ahh heck here comes that sun..
Theagg wrote...
Much like that yes. Not mindless rapid button pushing but the requirement to constantly undertake numerous and various key combos or single key strikes in real time to pull off moves, undertake actions and attack etc. With no true tactical pause.
This is one reason why I really dislike competitive RTS games
Ahh heck here comes that sun..
Neither the isometric camera, detachable camera, rogue/mage teleporting, cancelable abilities, nor manageable mana/stamina have any bearing whatsoever on your ability or lack thereof to run around a corner to make sure **** doesn't land on your head or stagger your mages to death. Sorry I touched the wrong buzzword, I should have known better!AngryFrozenWater wrote...
What a friendly response. Charming. You were talking about "tactical positioning", my dear friend. So, whether you like it or not, my reply was addressing that.
It's annoying in ways that are easily remedied and potentially transformed into a different kind of annoyance that has more to do with "now I'm bored" instead of "I still haven't learned how to move".KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I am not sure most are saying it's difficult. I think most are saying it's annoying.
I found combat a chore in large part because of it.
Modifié par ipgd, 30 juin 2011 - 03:01 .
While kiting is certainly a combat tactic, that isn't kiting. Making sure you are not in a bad place when bad things happen is just "not being bad".Yrkoon wrote...
ie. Kiting. I don't call that a combat tactic. I call that the absense of a combat tactic. And its not a solution to the problem anyway. Thankully, DA2's normal setting is so brain-dead easy, you don't have to make your mage kite for more than a few seconds before you're able to go back on the offensive with a spell.
ipgd wrote...
It's annoying in ways that are easily remedied and potentially transformed into a different kind of annoyance that has more to do with "now I'm bored" instead of "I still haven't learned how to move".KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I am not sure most are saying it's difficult. I think most are saying it's annoying.
I found combat a chore in large part because of it.
I play exclusively on nightmare and waves really did not aggravate me at all gameplay wise. They were boring, because of a lack of variance in the encounter design, but that was not a problem with waves specifically. They raise gameplay/story segregation issues that do annoy me, but that is a different issue.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2011 - 03:13 .
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And is it a different issue (at least entirely)? I hate the wave system not only for purely gameplay purposes. But because of gameplay / story segregation and especially how I end up viewing Hawke as well. I feel like I was playing a killing machine only. It's bad enough that the game does not offer you ways or quests that do not involve killing. It becomes blasted out of proportion when every single fight has you massacring hordes.
I personally don't look at it in isolation. I am not the kind of person to really stress on gameplay anyhow (I can enjoy Alpha Protocol despite being broken). It's the general mood I get from it and the wave system is part of a larger whole that left me in a bad, irritated mood.
Yes, which is why I want to see the wave system at least mitigated. I can barely swallow it as long as I can blame Varric, but once they drop the framed narrative I'm not gonna buy that ****.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally don't look at it in isolation. I am not the kind of person to really stress on gameplay anyhow (I can enjoy Alpha Protocol despite being broken).
Given your post history on this topic, I never had any desire whatsoever to subject myself to your "proper replies" in the first place. I'm sure I've seen absolutely everything you have to say about DA2 already. Thanks for saving me the pain.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
@ipgd: Again very charming. If you behave the next time then maybe I'll try a proper reply. For now I can use my time better and play a game instead of wasting my time with someone who is only out there to win a discussion.
Yrkoon wrote...
ipgd wrote...
I do not particularly like the waves system, but it boggles my mind how people can allegedly play the game the entire way through and not pick up on extremely simple things like MOVE THE **** OUT OF THE WAY,
ie. Kiting. I don't call that a combat tactic. I call that the absense of a combat tactic.
Modifié par Yrkoon, 30 juin 2011 - 03:28 .
ipgd wrote...
Yes, which is why I want to see the wave system at least mitigated. I can barely swallow it as long as I can blame Varric, but once they drop the framed narrative I'm not gonna buy that ****.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally don't look at it in isolation. I am not the kind of person to really stress on gameplay anyhow (I can enjoy Alpha Protocol despite being broken).
Gameplay wise, though, they're fine. If you're not bad.
You mentioned kiting, but thats not what ipgd described which in general terms (not the dodge game mechanic) was more like dodging.Yrkoon wrote...
In DA2, Dodging is a statistic based on your cunning score. It's NOT what we were talking about.
It is, though. I mean, that's why they went with an ureliable narrator in the first place, so they could do **** that doesn't make any senseKnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't buy that **** already. I love Varric and I'd hate it if eveyrhting that I see bad in DA2 was because he was such a lovely douche. That's like...no.
The core mechanic of waves is fine, it's their overuse that's the problem -- which can be solved as easily by better encounter designers as it can be by removing waves completely. I rather like them in theory, because they could help emphasize contextual class-based problem solving, but with the 60 BANDITS EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME style now it's all very heavily skewed towards warriors. Enemy "herding" should be more important to maximizing AoE dps as opposed to single target focusing, but mobs appear in such large numbers and so often that it's trivial.They are not fine if people find the gameplay annoying and boring because of it. It may not be broken (which may be what you mean by fine), but if it's not fun to many. Like you said, even if you're not bad, there is a chance you'll be bored / annoyed.
What I was describing was line of sight, positioning and the establishment of chokepoints, with a touch of "don't stand in the ****ing fire".Morroian wrote...
You mentioned kiting, but thats not what ipgd described which in general terms (not the dodge game mechanic) was more like dodging.
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Also, unlike in DA:O you cannot prevent your companions from using talents and spells in DA2.
ipgd wrote...
It is, though. I mean, that's why they went with an ureliable narrator in the first place, so they could do **** that doesn't make any sense
I don't particularly like it, but it makes enough sense that I can move from "I am actively irritated by this" to "well, whatever, do better next time".
The core mechanic of waves is fine, it's their overuse that's the problem -- which can be solved as easily by better encounter designers as it can be by removing waves completely.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
ipgd wrote...
The core mechanic of waves is fine, it's their overuse that's the problem -- which can be solved as easily by better encounter designers as it can be by removing waves completely.
Yea exactly. I agree.
I don't mind waves in concept either. The execution however was annoying. Better encounter designs. Less of them, with usage that actually makes sense. Mroe variety...etc etc.
I guess we got the working DA2.Zjarcal wrote...
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Also, unlike in DA:O you cannot prevent your companions from using talents and spells in DA2.
Were we playing the same game? Because it was entirely possible to prevent companions from using talents or spells.
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