725 réponses à ce sujet

[John Epler]

Alright, let's cut out the bickering, please.

[blothulfur]

I do like John Eplers new signature.

[lv12medic]

I thought the Politics in DA2 were realistic. Watching two opposing sides plop themselves on railroad tracks that go off a cliff in either direction, and me the player not being able to do anything to change or influence any of it in any meaningful manner.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
It is a political plot that you do not find to be complex or realistic, and complexity and realism are your personal rubrics by which you determine the quality of a political story. GLAD TO HAVE THESE SILLY SEMANTICS RESOLVED.

The quality of a political plot is based on its complexity and realism, because whenever you want to write a political plot, you are inspired by real life politics and human behavior.

Unless you absolutely don't care about real life politics and for you, politics is just an abstract notion that involves something that looks like a govenrment, and something that looks like a society, in which case, I can make an argument that Mario and his adventures in the Mushroom Kingdom is political. 

But that would be useless.
I can make anything look like a political plot, including Origins. So the premise which I responded to, that DA2 is somehow political and DA:O is not, is thus void.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2011 - 09:48 .

[Nerevar-as]

lv12medic wrote...

I thought the Politics in DA2 were realistic. Watching two opposing sides plop themselves on railroad tracks that go off a cliff in either direction, and me the player not being able to do anything to change or influence any of it in any meaningful manner.

From that point of view and considering the real world I agree. But if I want that I just watch the news. A main character in a game should play a key part in how the plot develops.

Anyway, at least I hope the improvement to the wave combat is not that now the waves will appear from somewhere instead of thin air.

[Rinji the Bearded]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
It is a political plot that you do not find to be complex or realistic, and complexity and realism are your personal rubrics by which you determine the quality of a political story. GLAD TO HAVE THESE SILLY SEMANTICS RESOLVED.

The quality of a political plot is based on its complexity and realism, because whenever you want to write a political plot, you are inspired by real life politics and human behavior.

Unless you absolutely don't care about real life politics and for you, politics is just an abstract notion that involves something that looks like a govenrment, and something that looks like a society, in which case, I can make an argument that Mario and his adventures in the Mushroom Kingdom is political. 

But that would be useless.
I can make anything look like a political plot, including Origins. So the premise which I responded to, that DA2 is somehow political and DA:O is not, is thus void.

Opinion vs Fact.  You're still not buying me, here.

[KnightofPhoenix]

lv12medic wrote...

I thought the Politics in DA2 were realistic. Watching two opposing sides plop themselves on railroad tracks that go off a cliff in either direction, and me the player not being able to do anything to change or influence any of it in any meaningful manner.

Plop themselves due to complete incompetence / madness / enter other poor excuses, in a setting that is still plaged by the same old binary simplistic mindset of A vs B. With barely any insight on the internal dynamics of faction A that is led by a madwoman, and what we do see is a bunch of more fools. And no insight at all in the internal dynamics of faction B, usually presented as madmen with no purpose who like to suicide by Hawke. 

There is very little realistic about it.

Act 2 on the otherhand was better.

[Serpieri Nei]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Political struggle…really?

Yes, really.

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Giant’s at the door, and templar vs. mages.

There you go.

No matter how you'd prefer I describe DA2's story (or three stories) it was inherently more interesting to me than being kidnapped into a the service (Grey Wardens) of killing a big bad monster (the Archdemon) so I can restore the status quo of a place I don't care about (Ferelden).

Kidnapped? When did that happen? Interesting, maybe it would of been without the frame narrative and actually siding with the mages and templars instead of killing everything that moved.

[Rinji the Bearded]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

I thought the Politics in DA2 were realistic. Watching two opposing sides plop themselves on railroad tracks that go off a cliff in either direction, and me the player not being able to do anything to change or influence any of it in any meaningful manner.

Plop themselves due to complete incompetence / madness / enter other poor excuses, in a setting that is still plaged by the same old binary simplistic mindset of A vs B. With barely any insight on the internal dynamics of faction A that is led by a madwoman, and what we do see is a bunch of more fools. And no insight at all in the internal dynamics of faction B, usually presented as madmen with no purpose who like to suicide by Hawke. 

There is very little realistic about it.

Act 2 on the otherhand was better.

Forget they can use magic and et cetera, but go on.

[upsettingshorts]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Kidnapped? When did that happen?

Semiofftopic:

Human Noble origin.

Granted, that is only for one interpretation of those events, playing a Cousland who wanted nothing to do with the Grey Wardens. 

But given those parameters, Duncan basically leverages the imminent death of your parents, the demise of your house, and the fact your world has just come crashing down around you into blackmailing you into joining the Grey Wardens or he won't help you will leave you there to die.  Let's just say that particular Warden bitterly resented Duncan for that.

Back on topic:

I don't think the frame narrative itself was the problem.  It was the fact the game didn't really do a good job exploiting the things you can do with a frame narrative.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[Dhiro]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Political struggle…really?

Yes, really.

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Giant’s at the door, and templar vs. mages.

There you go.

No matter how you'd prefer I describe DA2's story (or three stories) it was inherently more interesting to me than being kidnapped into a the service (Grey Wardens) of killing a big bad monster (the Archdemon) so I can restore the status quo of a place I don't care about (Ferelden).

Kidnapped? When did that happen? Interesting, maybe it would of been without the frame narrative and actually siding with the mages and templars instead of killing everything that moved.

Even if you didn't wanted to join the Grey Wardens, Duncan would force you. That said, the player usually wasn't in a position to refuse...

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Kidnapped? When did that happen?

Semiofftopic:

Human Noble origin.

Granted, that is only for one interpretation of those events, playing a Cousland who wanted nothing to do with the Grey Wardens. 

But given those parameters, Duncan basically leverages the imminent death of your parents, the demise of your house, and the fact your world has just come crashing down around you into blackmailing you into joining the Grey Wardens or he won't help you.  Let's just say that particular Warden bitterly resented Duncan for that.

Back on topic:

I don't think the frame narrative itself was the problem.  It was the fact the game didn't really do a good job exploiting the things you can do with a frame narrative.

Or Dalish.  JOIN ME OR DIE ANYWAY.

[Serpieri Nei]

Dhiro wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Political struggle…really?

Yes, really.

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Giant’s at the door, and templar vs. mages.

There you go.

No matter how you'd prefer I describe DA2's story (or three stories) it was inherently more interesting to me than being kidnapped into a the service (Grey Wardens) of killing a big bad monster (the Archdemon) so I can restore the status quo of a place I don't care about (Ferelden).

Kidnapped? When did that happen? Interesting, maybe it would of been without the frame narrative and actually siding with the mages and templars instead of killing everything that moved.

Even if you didn't wanted to join the Grey Wardens, Duncan would force you. That said, the player usually wasn't in a position to refuse...

So in DA2 I'm in a position to refuse?

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 30 juin 2011 - 09:58 .

[Dhiro]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Political struggle…really?

Yes, really.

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Giant’s at the door, and templar vs. mages.

There you go.

No matter how you'd prefer I describe DA2's story (or three stories) it was inherently more interesting to me than being kidnapped into a the service (Grey Wardens) of killing a big bad monster (the Archdemon) so I can restore the status quo of a place I don't care about (Ferelden).

Kidnapped? When did that happen? Interesting, maybe it would of been without the frame narrative and actually siding with the mages and templars instead of killing everything that moved.

Even if you didn't wanted to join the Grey Wardens, Duncan would force you. That said, the player usually wasn't in a position to refuse...

So In DA2 I'm in a position to refuse?

I don't know. Are you?

[upsettingshorts]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

So in DA2 I'm in a position to refuse?

Nope.  Neither game gives you any option at all really to simply not buy in to the premise of the game.  But that's true of most fiction and almost all games I've ever heard of.  I'm not sure how it would work either, perhaps alternative game overs.

The reason it's something valid to bring up though is that it's a perfectly fair thing to point out that it was possible to simply not be hooked by the story of Origins - especially if you aren't a fan of the Grey Wardens and/or don't care much about saving Ferelden specifically - just as its possible to not be hooked by the story of DA2 - especially if you can't relate to Hawke or view Kirkwall as a giant mess you'd rather just leave. 

But "buying in" is kind of a big part of getting any enjoyment out of fiction, sometimes you can't though.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 juin 2011 - 10:02 .

[AtreiyaN7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
It is a political plot that you do not find to be complex or realistic, and complexity and realism are your personal rubrics by which you determine the quality of a political story. GLAD TO HAVE THESE SILLY SEMANTICS RESOLVED.

The quality of a political plot is based on its complexity and realism, because whenever you want to write a political plot, you are inspired by real life politics and human behavior.

Unless you absolutely don't care about real life politics and for you, politics is just an abstract notion that involves something that looks like a govenrment, and something that looks like a society, in which case, I can make an argument that Mario and his adventures in the Mushroom Kingdom is political. 

But that would be useless.
I can make anything look like a political plot, including Origins. So the premise which I responded to, that DA2 is somehow political and DA:O is not, is thus void.

After seeing real politics playing out on almost a daily basis (I follow the news), I have found that watching the political process in action is oftentimes incredibly boring - unless you happen to be in the middle of a revolution OR get the enjoy the schadenfreude of seeing the latest moron who decides that sexting is a good idea get caught with his e-pants down.

If you like watching partisan twits bickering constantly and basically getting nothing done for your country for months at a time, then you don't need a game. You just need to tune in to C-SPAN, CNN, or FOX News - or whatever the equivalent is if you're not in the U.S.

At least in DA2, Anders actually did something to trigger change, and even if the templar-mage-qunari politics weren't "real" or "complex" enough, it was certainly more entertaining than constant reportage about Weiner's wiener or, say, Sarah Palin's latest gaffe or how many candidates are throwing their lame hats into the ring for the next presidential election.

[Serpieri Nei]

Dhiro wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Political struggle…really?

Yes, really.

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Giant’s at the door, and templar vs. mages.

There you go.

No matter how you'd prefer I describe DA2's story (or three stories) it was inherently more interesting to me than being kidnapped into a the service (Grey Wardens) of killing a big bad monster (the Archdemon) so I can restore the status quo of a place I don't care about (Ferelden).

Kidnapped? When did that happen? Interesting, maybe it would of been without the frame narrative and actually siding with the mages and templars instead of killing everything that moved.

Even if you didn't wanted to join the Grey Wardens, Duncan would force you. That said, the player usually wasn't in a position to refuse...

So In DA2 I'm in a position to refuse?

I don't know. Are you?

You dont know? Should I assume you didn't play the game? or just missed the point?

[Dhiro]

[quote]Serpieri Nei wrote...

-snip-
[/quote]

You dont know? Should I assume you didn't play the game? or just missed the point?

[/quote]

A little of column A, a little of column B.

But no.

[Realmzmaster]

Good forum mates! Let's get back on topic before this thread is locked. The point is the developers are going to give interviews that will put the best light on the situation. They are not going to say the following: We messed up. We lost tons of our old fan base. ( Did give an interview to Eurogamer where they say they lost some.) We did not get enough new fans. We went to far with the changes. We forgot to press the awesome button. Marketing is a bunch of liars. The developers are a bunch of liars. Simply not going to happen.

I yet to see a company that says that the product it sold was a complete and utter disaster and offer to refund everyone's money.

Also legally they are unable to say many things due to non-disclosure agreements and ligation that could arise from stockholders.
Also anything they say may be taken as a promise , fact or Word of God. Far better to remain silent.

I remember a quote from Abraham Lincoln:It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Maybe that is what Bioware and the good doctors should do. But then we would be accusing them of not listening to us.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
At least in DA2, Anders actually did something to trigger change, and even if the templar-mage-qunari politics weren't "real" or "complex" enough, it was certainly more entertaining than constant reportage about Weiner's wiener or, say, Sarah Palin's latest gaffe or how many candidates are throwing their lame hats into the ring for the next presidential election.

And that's not what I am arguing. You are entitled to believe that it was entertaining and interesting, and you are entitled to say that real life politics would be too boring and uninteresting.

I certainly believe that daily politics is boring and I wouldn't want to play a game that is focused on it. But if the DA team claims that the franchise is about Thedas, which they did, and that they want to start a conflict, which they tried, I expect it to be written in a more complex and realistic fashion for me to say it was really political. But it's not, and I thought it was written very badly, that I am no longer interested in the franchise / Thedas.  If it still interests you and you didn't think the writing was intolerable, then good for you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2011 - 10:12 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

So in DA2 I'm in a position to refuse?

Nope.  Neither game gives you any option at all really to simply not buy in to the premise of the game.  But that's true of most fiction and almost all games I've ever heard of.  I'm not sure how it would work either, perhaps alternative game overs.

The reason it's something valid to bring up though is that it's a perfectly fair thing to point out that it was possible to simply not be hooked by the story of Origins - especially if you aren't a fan of the Grey Wardens and/or don't care much about saving Ferelden specifically - just as its possible to not be hooked by the story of DA2 - especially if you can't relate to Hawke or view Kirkwall as a giant mess you'd rather just leave. 

But "buying in" is kind of a big part of getting any enjoyment out of fiction, sometimes you can't though.

A very open view that applies to both games. Well Said. 

[Serpieri Nei]

Mash Mashington wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...
So in DA2 I'm in a position to refuse?

you also don't have an option to buy a ticket and run to Rivain in DA:O. Or let Eamon die. Or forego one of the factions you are supposed to gather. I could go on forever

Do you believe that people can't point out the same in DA2?

[lv12medic]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

I thought the Politics in DA2 were realistic. Watching two opposing sides plop themselves on railroad tracks that go off a cliff in either direction, and me the player not being able to do anything to change or influence any of it in any meaningful manner.

Plop themselves due to complete incompetence / madness / enter other poor excuses, in a setting that is still plaged by the same old binary simplistic mindset of A vs B. With barely any insight on the internal dynamics of faction A that is led by a madwoman, and what we do see is a bunch of more fools. And no insight at all in the internal dynamics of faction B, usually presented as madmen with no purpose who like to suicide by Hawke. 

There is very little realistic about it.

Act 2 on the otherhand was better.

Well simplicity does have its virtues.  I could see an amazing game unfold from watching all the internal operations of a fictional government.  That may be sarcastic.

However, in DA2 internal political operation and Hawke don't get much chance to be with each other.  As you say, Act 2 was better, but Act 2 is the only time in which Hawke has any meaningful political power.  Act 1 you are a refugee nobody and Act 3 you live in a city which is under a martial law, military police state.  From everything I've seen of police states, they operate rather simplisticly.  Do what the Templars want or have Templars bashing down your door at 2 in the morning, an end of discussion attitude toward anything not following the will of the police state.

Modifié par lv12medic, 30 juin 2011 - 10:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

lv12medic wrote...
However, in DA2 internal political operation and Hawke don't get much chance to be with each other.  As you say, Act 2 was better, but Act 2 is the only time in which Hawke has any meaningful political power.  Act 1 you are a refugee nobody and Act 3 you live in a city which is under a martial law, military police state.  From everything I've seen of police states, they operate rather simplisticly.  Do what the Templars want or have Templars bashing down your door at 2 in the morning, an end of discussion attitude toward anything not following the will of the police state.

Well it doesn't work like that. I've lived in a state under martial law for 17 years.

In Act 3, Hawke was apparently considered important enough by Meredith and Orsino that they want to, yet again, have him run their errands. This was a time and place where more could have been explored, but we have very little. Hawke may have been powerless (due to his own passivity and laziness), but that does not remove the possibility to involve him more in the political dynamics of the escallation of the conflict. Hawke was not only a nobleman, he was also the champion, a title he never bothered using. But at best, what we got is a skeleton of a political plot hiding somewhere in the bg.

We are told in one line of dialogue of internal chantry divide that we never see or explore. We are told in one line of dialogue that resolutionists branched out of Libertarians, and we still have to kill them anyways when they do show up because everyone likes to suicide by Hawke. We are told of a mage resistance we never see in Act 2.  

Why does the Chantry think that having Meredith impose martial law in Kirkwall for 3 years when it's absolutely not needed, a good idea in the first place? None of that is shown or explained, which ends up givign the impression that the Chantry is run by blind idiots. 

Like I said, "barely political", because there is a political plot hiding somewhere in the bg (a statement I can say about almost every game btw). But it's so overshadowed by everything else which doesn't make sense, that it cannot be said to be a complex and realistic political setting.  Coming up with reasons (or excuses) that Hawke didn't see the political dynamics, doesn't make the game's story political.   

Maybe a novel that is written about the same timeline that delves deeper into this, could be really political. Not DA2.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2011 - 10:32 .