725 réponses à ce sujet

[Babli]

Game sold worse than Origins and on every forum I visit I see mostly bashing of DA 2.

Thats a success?

Nothing except PR bs will come out of doctors mouths these days, sadly. Dont tell me that EA didnt changed Bioware...

[Siven80]

Do people having nothing better to do than jump on marketing and PR words bioware use?

Seriously, Bioware know that many things about DA2 werent that great, but can you really blame them for putting good a PR spin on things for the quite frankly majority of people who dont frequent forums to **** and moan over everything.

Now im gonna go back to finish off another DAO/Awakenings playthrough to import into DA2.

[IanPolaris]

Words have meanings and saying that DA2 was "critically successful with a lot of new fans" is not just marketing speech. In light of the known sales numbers, it is nothing short of a bald faced lie.

-Polaris

[Bloody Krogan]

"critically successsful with a lot of new fans"

them ?

[trucoolbrees]

Babli wrote...

Game sold worse than Origins and on every forum I visit I see mostly bashing of DA 2.

Thats a success?

Nothing except PR bs will come out of doctors mouths these days, sadly. Dont tell me that EA didnt changed Bioware...

Dispite popular belief, people who post in  forums account for only about 10 percent (if not less) of the overall sales count that a game receives. And BSN posters are pretty passionate, so they tend to get their point across in a big way. 

[Barbarossa2010]

KilrB wrote...

I want to know where all the "new fans" came from.

Speaking from personal experience:

I have three brothers, all are X-Box fanatics.

All play Halo, COD, etc., etc.

Only one of them ever played rpg's of any description, mostly FF.

When I started playing Origins, I couldn't stop telling them about it.

I finally bought copies for two of them, the third said out-right he would never, ever, play any rpg because he "doesn't have the time".

The other two, and one's wife (mine too) fell in love with Origins and we often compared our different characters, and "discoveries".

We are all still playing Origins off and on.

DA2 on the other hand ...

I never said anything to them about how I felt toward it, only asked how they liked it.

Their response was that it was a "waste of time and money".

The chances they will return for DA3 are slim to none.

A sale does not equate making a fan.

A fan will tell others how good your game is.

A fan will come back and buy your NEXT game.

In this instance I can tell them that DA2 LOST them at least three fans.

Not many I know but ...

You HAVE to sell games in order to make fans.

Looking at the sales figure I am willing to bet they lost a LOT more fans than they made with DA2.

Yeah, same experience here.  I come from the deepest ranks of XBOX Live MP, and have spent a shameful amount of time in Live parties and pre-game lobbies, and am familiar enough with the demographic to know that very, very few of them will ever play a "lame" fantasy RPG.  Origins was the right formula to bring those over that WOULD cross-over. 

For me, it was my first RPG and I managed to persuade five friends (actually six, but one passed) into playing it, and each of those five really took to it.  Each did multiple playthroughs, and once they learned the combat system, crafting, levelling, and talents, they were pretty much hooked. A new world of gaming was opened for them (and me, for that matter).  They played DA2, three didn't finish it, and all went right back to Gears, HALO Reach, Black Ops, pretty much calling it lame.  DA3 doesn't appear to be on their radar.  They liked Origins but disliked DA2.  Who was the targeted audience of DA2 again?  Why was all that streamlining and corner-cutting done again? 

So add 5 or 6 to the lost column.

[IanPolaris]

trucoolbrees wrote...

Babli wrote...

Game sold worse than Origins and on every forum I visit I see mostly bashing of DA 2.

Thats a success?

Nothing except PR bs will come out of doctors mouths these days, sadly. Dont tell me that EA didnt changed Bioware...

Dispite popular belief, people who post in  forums account for only about 10 percent (if not less) of the overall sales count that a game receives. And BSN posters are pretty passionate, so they tend to get their point across in a big way. 

So what?  If what Muzyka said were true, then DA2 should have sales (real sales) numbers in the 5 millions or even more by now since they would have gotten the "CoD" crowd they said they wanted.  It's not even close.  Simple arithemetic reveals this statement to be nothing more than a baldfaced lie and the BSN forums have nothing to do with it.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 29 juin 2011 - 04:50 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Yrkoon wrote...

Beerfish wrote...
The level progression and class choices = good

class choices good?  Oh  Gods I disagree with this.

You're a warrior.  And you want to dual-wield.  Nope sorry, you can't.  You  can't use ranged weapons either.  You can only do sword & shield or 2h weapons.  and that's all.  Lets hear it for  good class choices and replayability  lol

Same with Rogues.    wanna use swords, axes or maces?   So-sorry, but no.  you can only use  2 daggers.  Or you can use bows.... but not crossbows of course,  because  that choice was removed too.     

Mages.     Don't get me started on the hackjob they did with them.    Remember the good old days of 2009, when you could be an arcane warrior?  Forget it.   Not an option anymore.  Instead,  DA2 adds more spells.... No wait, it doesn't.   it reduces the spell choices by about 30.

Remember skills like trap making, herbalism, survival and poison making?    Those are gone too.  They're replaced by....    sh*t.    they're not replaced at all,   sorry.  they're just removed.     Excuse me,  streamlined out of existance.  Not awesome-button enough I suppose.

Great list that goes beyond the typical recycled environments, wave combat and exploding bodies palaver.

Non-combat skills being removed or reduced to "operating in the background" was a big-time frustrating loss of agency for me.  Just when I got used to managing and using them, and really began to appreciate what their mechanic added to the overall experience, BW strips them for players like...well...me.  

[Davasar]

astrallite wrote...

The hype machine will be in full force in DA3. No better way to drum up excitement than to say how it's better in every way compared to its predecessor.

Exactly!

I mean, they did that for DA2!  And look at what awesomeness it was!

-implausible, anime styled combat
-parachuting enemies
-No choices for race
-spamming, non-tactical combat
-recycled areas
-dialogue wheel where you dont get to say exactly what you want...


Hmm...seems the hype machine is thoroughly out of touch with reality when you stop and think about it.

[Feraele]

alex90c wrote...

When Bioware in these little interviews repeatedly blame people who dislike the game for not being able to handle the "innovations" and they "wanted a second Origins" despite people saying this is absolute BS on the forum and it was simply because they thought the game itself sucked, it really does make you wonder whether they're even paying attention to what we say.

I think they are avoiding what we say..ignoring us to be blunt.    They will continue to do things their way (of course..due to budget and orders from HQ)   and I guess think that the fans don't know what they like..that Bioware knows best and so it will go.     I can see a certain amount of that...but at the same time, taking clues from the fanbase on direction headed, what works, what doesn't work.....and discussing it amongst the dev team..wouldn't hurt.   Or would it?   

I have been a closed alpha and beta tester on a few games...where...the Devs refuse to even entertain the thought that possibly there is a glimmer of truth coming from their testers aka fans aka future gamers.   Ignoring all imput from those folks..is perhaps not a wise thing.  

[Feraele]

IanPolaris wrote...

Words have meanings and saying that DA2 was "critically successful with a lot of new fans" is not just marketing speech. In light of the known sales numbers, it is nothing short of a bald faced lie.

-Polaris

Heh ...THIS

[Romantiq]

IanPolaris wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

Did I just read "TW2's story is weak"?! In comparison to what?!

I might actually blow my head off one of these days...

In comparison to DAO, TW2 does have a fairly weak story.  If you compare to DA2?  There simply isn't any reasonable comparison.

-Polaris

I'd have to disagree with that good sir. As much as I love origins, it's almost a crime to put these two together.

Modifié par Romantiq, 29 juin 2011 - 07:28 .

[aftohsix]

So new fans cannot possibly be people who like Halo, GOW etc.. etc... because they're like totally stupid. Just like at least part of the reason you didn't like DA2 couldn't possibly be because at least in part  you just didn't like the changes.

And you guys have the nerve to get angry when you're told you're elitist.

Modifié par aftohsix, 29 juin 2011 - 07:41 .

[Realmzmaster]

It is interesting that forum mates do not think that Bioware listens to constructive criticism or their fans. The DAO forums were livid with gamers criticizing Bioaware for not making BGIII and that DAO was not the spiritual successor to BG. Gamers were accusing Bioware of committing heresy. The new IP was to different from the D & D ruleset to succeed.
(Sounds familiar).

The developers did listen to the criticism leveled at DAO and some of those changes ended up in DA2. The problem is that the changes may have gone to far and certain decisions made were not in the best interest of DA2. Yes DA2 had flaws which are well documented. DAO has flaws which are well documented. The flaws in DAO were more tolerable for many gamers than the flaws in DA2. Not here to agrue that point.

As far as DA2 getting new fans it probably did. As far as losing old fans it probably did. DA2 probably disappointed fans in some manner just like the fans of BG was disappointed by DAO.

Any company and employee is going to put the best possible spin on a situation even if it may be bad or at best average. Anything else could amount to job suicide.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 29 juin 2011 - 07:54 .

[KilrB]

aftohsix wrote...

So new fans cannot possibly be people who like Halo, GOW etc.. etc... because they're like totally stupid. Just like at least part of the reason you didn't like DA2 couldn't possibly be because at least in part  you just didn't like the changes.

And you guys have the nerve to get angry when you're told you're elitist.

Did you just call Barbarossa 2010 and his friends and my brothers stupid?

[aftohsix]

KilrB wrote...
Did you just call Barbarossa 2010 and his friends and my brothers stupid?

I don't think you guys are stupid.  You're more than welcome to your opinions and most of you don't like DA2.  Nothing I say is going to make you like it and it's not my goal.

My problem is that many of you simply want to lump people who haven't played RPGs before DA2 or people who liked DA2 into this category of "COD gamers" but when you say "COD gamers" you're picturing sweaty frat boys pounding Natty-ice while screaming into their Mics about "pounding n00bs" and "slapping hoes."

It's simply not a fair assessment.  It's just like when people say DA2 is "dumbed down" instead of "streamlined," because they are two very different terms.  They don't mean the same thing.

It's annoying to me because it comes off as stuck up and offensive and I know that isn't really your intent.  I know there are also plenty of DA2 fans around here that behave just a crappy towards people who didn't like the game.  I'm just tired of seeing it from both sides.

[xkg]

aftohsix wrote...

And you guys have the nerve to get angry when you're told you're elitist.

Yes I'am PC ELITIST. And i feel good with that.

[Tirfan]

aftohsix wrote...

KilrB wrote...
Did you just call Barbarossa 2010 and his friends and my brothers stupid?

I don't think you guys are stupid.  You're more than welcome to your opinions and most of you don't like DA2.  Nothing I say is going to make you like it and it's not my goal.

My problem is that many of you simply want to lump people who haven't played RPGs before DA2 or people who liked DA2 into this category of "COD gamers" but when you say "COD gamers" you're picturing sweaty frat boys pounding Natty-ice while screaming into their Mics about "pounding n00bs" and "slapping hoes."

It's simply not a fair assessment.  It's just like when people say DA2 is "dumbed down" instead of "streamlined," because they are two very different terms.  They don't mean the same thing.

It's annoying to me because it comes off as stuck up and offensive and I know that isn't really your intent.  I know there are also plenty of DA2 fans around here that behave just a crappy towards people who didn't like the game.  I'm just tired of seeing it from both sides.

Well, if I called you people cod-gamers (I have not) I would imagine you to be like my little brother - annoying, somewhere between 10-12 years old and on constant and extremely bad caffeine high.
You are tired of it coming from both sides.. and yet I have seen that you engage people who don't like the game in a very offensive way? Okay, I don't need to understand I guess.

and edit;  Another PC Elitist here, and I'm proud of it.

Modifié par Tirfan, 29 juin 2011 - 08:08 .

[John Epler]

Feraele wrote...

alex90c wrote...

When Bioware in these little interviews repeatedly blame people who dislike the game for not being able to handle the "innovations" and they "wanted a second Origins" despite people saying this is absolute BS on the forum and it was simply because they thought the game itself sucked, it really does make you wonder whether they're even paying attention to what we say.

I think they are avoiding what we say..ignoring us to be blunt.    They will continue to do things their way (of course..due to budget and orders from HQ)   and I guess think that the fans don't know what they like..that Bioware knows best and so it will go.     I can see a certain amount of that...but at the same time, taking clues from the fanbase on direction headed, what works, what doesn't work.....and discussing it amongst the dev team..wouldn't hurt.   Or would it?  

If we're ignoring you guys, we're doing an awfully poor job of it. We're still reading the forums on a regular basis, and whenever we see an opportunity to do so, we still interact with you guys. The Constructive Criticism thread is still being read, as is the review thread in this forum. We're still making sure to see what you guys liked and didn't like in DA2, as well as the reasons behind both. 

However, and I say this as a general statement - insults and vitriol are not going to get us to listen to you. Is there anything wrong with expressing your frustration at the direction DA2 went? Of course not - look to a number of posters on these forums (most of whom are on my friends list because I value their input) for examples of how you can be opposed to the direction the series went with this installment and still be constructive. However, referring to other posters (or developers) as morons, idiots, etc. - that's a quick path to being both A) banned and  ignored.

We understand that there are concerns with DA2, and we're doing what we can to address some of them. Having said that - not every concern you have will be addressed. We're not building a game by committee, and that's good, because doing so would be an impossible task that would result in a mess of a game. Certainly, there are concerns that fans have with DA2 that are near universal - but there are others that are perceived in a wildly different fashion, depending on who you speak with. And there are some concerns that aren't necessarily with the decision that was made, but rather the specifics of implementation.

In the end, we have to make the decisions ourselves. Some of them will work. Some of them won't - that's okay, that's on us. Game design is an iterative process, and if we could make a game where everyone liked every single design decision - well, I'd own no fewer than three islands shaped like my face. But we are listening.

[KilrB]

aftohsix wrote...

KilrB wrote...
Did you just call Barbarossa 2010 and his friends and my brothers stupid?

I don't think you guys are stupid.  You're more than welcome to your opinions and most of you don't like DA2.  Nothing I say is going to make you like it and it's not my goal.

My problem is that many of you simply want to lump people who haven't played RPGs before DA2 or people who liked DA2 into this category of "COD gamers" but when you say "COD gamers" you're picturing sweaty frat boys pounding Natty-ice while screaming into their Mics about "pounding n00bs" and "slapping hoes."

It's simply not a fair assessment.  It's just like when people say DA2 is "dumbed down" instead of "streamlined," because they are two very different terms.  They don't mean the same thing.

It's annoying to me because it comes off as stuck up and offensive and I know that isn't really your intent.  I know there are also plenty of DA2 fans around here that behave just a crappy towards people who didn't like the game.  I'm just tired of seeing it from both sides.

At least part of my point was that Bioware/EA did managed to attract the COD gamers they were after ...

 ... with DA:Origins!

Then proptly lost many them with DA2.

Tell me, were THOSE fans unable to accept the changes, unwilling to evolve, too stupid?

 ... and I DO equate the Bioware/EA version of "streamline" with "dumbed down".

[astrallite]

[spam post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 29 juin 2011 - 08:37 .

[Nerevar-as]

JohnEpler wrote...

We understand that there are concerns with DA2, and we're doing what we can to address some of them. Having said that - not every concern you have will be addressed. We're not building a game by committee, and that's good, because doing so would be an impossible task that would result in a mess of a game. Certainly, there are concerns that fans have with DA2 that are near universal - but there are others that are perceived in a wildly different fashion, depending on who you speak with. And there are some concerns that aren't necessarily with the decision that was made, but rather the specifics of implementation.

In the end, we have to make the decisions ourselves. Some of them will work. Some of them won't - that's okay, that's on us. Game design is an iterative process, and if we could make a game where everyone liked every single design decision - well, I'd own no fewer than three islands shaped like my face. But we are listening.

Could you please elaborate?

[alex90c]

JohnEpler wrote...

Feraele wrote...

alex90c wrote...

When Bioware in these little interviews repeatedly blame people who dislike the game for not being able to handle the "innovations" and they "wanted a second Origins" despite people saying this is absolute BS on the forum and it was simply because they thought the game itself sucked, it really does make you wonder whether they're even paying attention to what we say.

I think they are avoiding what we say..ignoring us to be blunt.    They will continue to do things their way (of course..due to budget and orders from HQ)   and I guess think that the fans don't know what they like..that Bioware knows best and so it will go.     I can see a certain amount of that...but at the same time, taking clues from the fanbase on direction headed, what works, what doesn't work.....and discussing it amongst the dev team..wouldn't hurt.   Or would it?  

If we're ignoring you guys, we're doing an awfully poor job of it. We're still reading the forums on a regular basis, and whenever we see an opportunity to do so, we still interact with you guys. The Constructive Criticism thread is still being read, as is the review thread in this forum. We're still making sure to see what you guys liked and didn't like in DA2, as well as the reasons behind both. 

However, and I say this as a general statement - insults and vitriol are not going to get us to listen to you. Is there anything wrong with expressing your frustration at the direction DA2 went? Of course not - look to a number of posters on these forums (most of whom are on my friends list because I value their input) for examples of how you can be opposed to the direction the series went with this installment and still be constructive. However, referring to other posters (or developers) as morons, idiots, etc. - that's a quick path to being both A) banned and  ignored.

We understand that there are concerns with DA2, and we're doing what we can to address some of them. Having said that - not every concern you have will be addressed. We're not building a game by committee, and that's good, because doing so would be an impossible task that would result in a mess of a game. Certainly, there are concerns that fans have with DA2 that are near universal - but there are others that are perceived in a wildly different fashion, depending on who you speak with. And there are some concerns that aren't necessarily with the decision that was made, but rather the specifics of implementation.

In the end, we have to make the decisions ourselves. Some of them will work. Some of them won't - that's okay, that's on us. Game design is an iterative process, and if we could make a game where everyone liked every single design decision - well, I'd own no fewer than three islands shaped like my face. But we are listening.

My personal problem is that you claim to be listening to what people have to say (and probably are, though we simply have to wait for DA2s DLC, and DA3 to see the extent of that) but the interviews don't seem to reflect that.

People criticise features X, Y and Z of DA2. Sure, nothing wrong with that, every game is going to get criticism. But then rather than simply saying that people had problems with certain things done in DA2, the blame gets turned on to the fans. Oh, well the only reason they didn't like it is because they hate change. They didn't like it because they don't appreciate our "innovations". They don't like it because it wasn't a Dragon Age: Origins 2. Now i'm sorry, but that's just a complete load. Yeah, plenty of people loved Origins but the problem I have is with trying to shift the blame on the fans themselves, and to be honest quite a few people on here feel insulted by it too. What makes it worse, is that people expressed their offence in this and yet Bioware PR are simply repeating it again and again.

Yeah, call what i'm saying a load of hyperbole and vitriol, but I don't think any of it is wrong.

[KilrB]

Nerevar-as wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

We understand that there are concerns with DA2, and we're doing what we can to address some of them. Having said that - not every concern you have will be addressed. We're not building a game by committee, and that's good, because doing so would be an impossible task that would result in a mess of a game. Certainly, there are concerns that fans have with DA2 that are near universal - but there are others that are perceived in a wildly different fashion, depending on who you speak with. And there are some concerns that aren't necessarily with the decision that was made, but rather the specifics of implementation.

In the end, we have to make the decisions ourselves. Some of them will work. Some of them won't - that's okay, that's on us. Game design is an iterative process, and if we could make a game where everyone liked every single design decision - well, I'd own no fewer than three islands shaped like my face. But we are listening.

Could you please elaborate?

Nobody really likes the copy-n-paste caves and mansions, or the waves of enemies raining from above.

Whereas some people like that crafting has been "streamlined" into online shopping, and only having to talk to your companions twice per act, and a host of other "innovations".

Others of us do not.

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

My personal problem is that you claim to be listening to what people have to say (and probably are, though we simply have to wait for DA2s DLC, and DA3 to see the extent of that) but the interviews don't seem to reflect that.

People criticise features X, Y and Z of DA2. Sure, nothing wrong with that, every game is going to get criticism. But then rather than simply saying that people had problems with certain things done in DA2, the blame gets turned on to the fans. Oh, well the only reason they didn't like it is because they hate change. They didn't like it because they don't appreciate our "innovations". They don't like it because it wasn't a Dragon Age: Origins 2. Now i'm sorry, but that's just a complete load. Yeah, plenty of people loved Origins but the problem I have is with trying to shift the blame on the fans themselves, and to be honest quite a few people on here feel insulted by it too. What makes it worse, is that people expressed their offence in this and yet Bioware PR are simply repeating it again and again.

Yeah, call what i'm saying a load of hyperbole and vitriol, but I don't think any of it is wrong.

I think it is wrong, everyone knew what they where getting themselfs into with DA2, anyone that watched the marketing, read reviews, gameplay and livestream would know this was diffrent then DAO and you might not like it. The only thing I will give is no one knew that Act 3 would be bloody horrible and level deisgn would be poor.