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[Foolsfolly]

I must state: I do not understand Abominations in the slightest. I mean that in every sense.

From a gameplay perspective I don't understand how a magic casting demon and a mage equal a weak melee unit.

From a story perspective...I just do not understand Abominations.

Sometimes it appears that abominations are just mindless hulking brutes with large tumors covering their bodies. They sometimes talk and show a form of thinking, other times they're slight animals destroying everything they come across.

Sometimes the Abomination isn't an Abomination, like Uldred, instead they turn into a Demon.

Sometimes the abomination is more of a possession, like Wynne, Connor, and Anders. This form of Abomination seems to 'merge' with the personality of the person (except for Wynne who seems the same without any difference with Faith).

Then there's the Duchess an Abomination who according to Justice has now become a demon, is that the explaination for Uldred? The Duchess had decades in the Fade using and feeding off of spirits/souls to become that. How did Uldred become a demon so quickly?

And then there's the special case of Connor's possession, which is cured by killing the Desire Demon that possessed him. This can't be too special of a case since Irving, Jowen, and Morrigan all seem to know that you can go into the Fade and kill a demon and the possessed mage will revert to normal.

The ritual to kill the demon in the Fade doesn't even require the victim present since a floor and who know how far seperated the mages/Jowen and Connor.

Even more interesting is the fact that possessed mages like Anders and Connor have moments without the demon/spirit controlling them. This seems to imply that the demon exists in both the Fade and the mortal realm but can only focus on one area at a time, either in the host body or dwelling in the Fade.

Which means during these moments would it not be possible to tranquil the mage and thus lock the demon out of the mage forever?

OR is there some kind of difference between Abomination and Possessed Mage? If so then why do people (including possibly the Warden) think Flemeth is an Abomination while still maintaining a human appearance? There must be president of human looking Abominations (and there is we see mages transform in DA2 and Uldred force demons into mages in DA:O).

...

...I just don't understand Abominations.

[John Epler]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Correct. Different abominations have different levels of intelligence, power, and control over their state.

Think about it this way: Does a 2-year-old and a 30-year-old act in the same way? There's a huge difference between a rage or hunger spirit entering the mortal world for the first time, and a desire spirit that has over a century's experience in the bodies of various people.

The problem is that we encountered various abominations of different sorts in the Ferelden Circle (Rage, Pride, Hunger, Desire, Sloth) and most of them just decided to attack us with their fists. The only ones who didn't were Uldred and the Sloth Demon.

Were the rest just Rage Abominations I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But they all had different names, different demons possessing them. An Abomination should know that the body of a Mage can be useful. Torpor knew, and he had never been to the mortal realm before.

I'm not a writer (I feel I need to preface any post where I address the lore with this) but I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Whatever aspect a demon is (Sloth, Rage, Desire, Hunger, Pride) does not dictate how mindless/powerful they are when they push through the Veil and take the form of an abomination, but rather how experienced they are when they attempt the possession. A mage like Uldred was powerful, and he had a large number of bargaining chips - so he was able to attract a far wiser and more powerful spirit who had a much stronger will (and as such, was far more than a simple abomination on the other side of the Veil).

The average mage, however, looks at blood magic and demonic bargains as a route to quick and easy power. But unlike Uldred, they don't have nearly as much to bargain with, so the demons they tend to attract are less powerful. A demon like the Pride Demon in DA:O is not going to be making bargains with a low-level mage who has little ability to affect the day-to-day business of the Circle. But Uldred? Well, he had power and influence, and the Pride Demon knew this.

The more powerful the host, the more powerful the demon they are able to attract, and thus the more powerful/rational the demon remains when they cross the Veil into our own world.

At least, that's my interpretation of the lore. Again, I'm not a writer, so don't take anything I say as fact. Merely slightly informed speculation.

EDIT: Whoops. Meant Sloth, not Pride. Heat and beer are wreaking havoc on my brain.

EDIT: And I actually meant 'Meant Pride, not Sloth'.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 29 juin 2011 - 05:06 .

[John Epler]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Correct. Different abominations have different levels of intelligence, power, and control over their state.

Think about it this way: Does a 2-year-old and a 30-year-old act in the same way? There's a huge difference between a rage or hunger spirit entering the mortal world for the first time, and a desire spirit that has over a century's experience in the bodies of various people.

The problem is that we encountered various abominations of different sorts in the Ferelden Circle (Rage, Pride, Hunger, Desire, Sloth) and most of them just decided to attack us with their fists. The only ones who didn't were Uldred and the Sloth Demon.

Were the rest just Rage Abominations I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But they all had different names, different demons possessing them. An Abomination should know that the body of a Mage can be useful. Torpor knew, and he had never been to the mortal realm before.

I'm not a writer (I feel I need to preface any post where I address the lore with this) but I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Whatever aspect a demon is (Sloth, Rage, Desire, Hunger, Pride) does not dictate how mindless/powerful they are when they push through the Veil and take the form of an abomination, but rather how experienced they are when they attempt the possession. A mage like Uldred was powerful, and he had a large number of bargaining chips - so he was able to attract a far wiser and more powerful spirit who had a much stronger will (and as such, was far more than a simple abomination on the other side of the Veil).

The average mage, however, looks at blood magic and demonic bargains as a route to quick and easy power. But unlike Uldred, they don't have nearly as much to bargain with, so the demons they tend to attract are less powerful. A demon like the Sloth Demon in DA:O is not going to be making bargains with a low-level mage who has little ability to affect the day-to-day business of the Circle. But Uldred? Well, he had power and influence, and the Sloth Demon knew this.

The more powerful the host, the more powerful the demon they are able to attract, and thus the more powerful/rational the demon remains when they cross the Veil into our own world.

At least, that's my interpretation of the lore. Again, I'm not a writer, so don't take anything I say as fact. Merely slightly informed speculation.

What about Connor? He was a very inexperienced mage (and thus, at the time weak) but he was able to attract a Desire Demon that caused a lot of damage.

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence.

[John Epler]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence

Interesting.... so being the son of an Arl was what attracted the demon. Most awesome. Most awesome indeed.



Related: I would like to see some Abominations not be so mindless. All we ever face are mindless Abominations. And even though I now understand why (and I'm very grateful for the information Mr. Epler), it would be nice to face some Abominations that aren't so mindless.

Also, why do they pop out of the ground in DA2?

I'd like to see more intelligent Abominations too. But we did have a few intelligent Abominations over the course of the series. Hell, Flemeth's legend says she's one and we see how powerful she is. (If she's an Abomination, a lot of people really believe she's an Old God and I tend to agree.)

As for ground pop I'm positive it's just the waving mechanic doing that. They appear very similar to demons do when they're summoned...it's just...Abominations shouldn't be summoned so it's a bit of fail there.

I think that the potential is certainly there for this sort of thing, given that the Circles are no longer under the sort of strict control that they once were. Coupled with the fact that the leader of the Kirkwall revolt used blood magic (his eventual defeat no doubt being glossed over by those who've been itching for a chance to get their Tevinter-style blood rites on) and you have a situation where powerful mages are more likely to end up in situations where they see deals with demons as being a preferable course of action.

As for abominations appearing out of the ground, unfortunately, story and gameplay occasionally don't intersect as well as they should, and this would be one of those instances. It was noted, however, and the general consensus is (I believe) that abominations need to be handled like, well, abominations. Even the weak ones should be a believable threat. Able to destroy entire towns? Well, you can chalk some of that up to Chantry hyperbole, but they aren't something to be regarded lightly.

[John Epler]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd also like lesser abominations that are not downgraded when compared to mages. As in, they can actually use magic, even uncontrollably.

I think the idea is that newly created abominations are still coming to grips with their host's body and powers. That's not to say that (as you mention) they couldn't use magic in an uncontrolled fashion, though.

[John Epler]

Hah! I don't think I've done anything special - I'm still speculating here. The difference, of course, is that part of my job is to know everything about the Dragon Age franchise, and I am immersed in Dragon Age for 10-14 hours a day. So it's on my mind. A lot

But thank you. I enjoy participating in discussions wherever I can - sometimes, talking to other people about lore points can help get the creative juices flowing, which in turn allows me to show up at a writer's desk the next day with a notepad and the words 'hey, here's a thought..' Especially when I'm talking to non-employees, as sometimes it's easy to say 'oh, it's explained in page 331 of the lore bible, paragraph 5'. Which is all well and good for us, but if we aren't conveying page 331, paragraph 5, then we need to know that.

[John Epler]

I think the common wisdom is, in fact, that a deal with a demon will go badly.. but every mage who makes that deal thinks 'well, that applies to all those -other- mages, but I'm special! Nothing bad's going to happen to me!'

It's arrogance. It's certainly not unique to Thedas - lots of people in the real world do incredibly risky and foolish things because they believe that they're special and that things will work out for them, even though the general wisdom is 'this is a bad idea and you should not do it'.