292 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

I must state: I do not understand Abominations in the slightest. I mean that in every sense.

From a gameplay perspective I don't understand how a magic casting demon and a mage equal a weak melee unit.

From a story perspective...I just do not understand Abominations.

Sometimes it appears that abominations are just mindless hulking brutes with large tumors covering their bodies. They sometimes talk and show a form of thinking, other times they're slight animals destroying everything they come across.

Sometimes the Abomination isn't an Abomination, like Uldred, instead they turn into a Demon.

Sometimes the abomination is more of a possession, like Wynne, Connor, and Anders. This form of Abomination seems to 'merge' with the personality of the person (except for Wynne who seems the same without any difference with Faith).

Then there's the Duchess an Abomination who according to Justice has now become a demon, is that the explaination for Uldred? The Duchess had decades in the Fade using and feeding off of spirits/souls to become that. How did Uldred become a demon so quickly?

And then there's the special case of Connor's possession, which is cured by killing the Desire Demon that possessed him. This can't be too special of a case since Irving, Jowen, and Morrigan all seem to know that you can go into the Fade and kill a demon and the possessed mage will revert to normal.

The ritual to kill the demon in the Fade doesn't even require the victim present since a floor and who know how far seperated the mages/Jowen and Connor.

Even more interesting is the fact that possessed mages like Anders and Connor have moments without the demon/spirit controlling them. This seems to imply that the demon exists in both the Fade and the mortal realm but can only focus on one area at a time, either in the host body or dwelling in the Fade.

Which means during these moments would it not be possible to tranquil the mage and thus lock the demon out of the mage forever?

OR is there some kind of difference between Abomination and Possessed Mage? If so then why do people (including possibly the Warden) think Flemeth is an Abomination while still maintaining a human appearance? There must be president of human looking Abominations (and there is we see mages transform in DA2 and Uldred force demons into mages in DA:O).

...

...I just don't understand Abominations.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I wish I had good answers for you. These are all great questions.

The short answers is this: Abomination is just a word people use for any combination of a fade being and a mortal. There aren't any rules for it specifically, it's just a catchall term.

The long answer is this: no one in Thedas seems to have bothered to catalogue or coherently study abominations, and, with the question of gameplay vs. story, we can pretty much say absolutely nothing conclusive about the nature of abominations vs. possessions vs outright demons. I'm assuming that they're all different kinds of mergers, but I don't even have enough data to spin theories at this point. And I always have enough data to spin theories! I was able to devise a comprehensive theory of tranquility based largely around a thirty second conversation with Karl.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2011 - 01:06 .

[Areksu]

First, about Connor in DA:O. According to the dialogue, you can save a person who willingly accepts a demon's offer, but not a person who was forcibly possessed (their souls get "mangled" in the process). And yes, DA2 contradicts this with Anders.
Secondly, about there appearance. Its roid rage man. Demon-possessed roid rage. I have no idea honestly.
Thirdly, the difference between an abomination and a spirit warrior/spirit healer is who is in the driver's seat. If the possessed person keeps his original personality then he/she is not an abomination. Anders is an abomination because he is in a constant fight to maintain control of himself, and his personality has been altered drastically by their merging.

[Foolsfolly]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I wish I had good answers for you. These are all great questions.

The short answers is this: Abomination is just a word people use for any combination of a fade being and a mortal. There aren't any rules for it specifically, it's just a catchall term.

The long answer is this: no one in Thedas seems to have bothered to catalogue or coherently study abominations, and, with the question of gameplay vs. story, we can pretty much say absolutely nothing conclusive about the nature of abominations vs. possessions vs outright demons. I'm assuming that they're all different kinds of mergers, but I don't even have enough data to spin theories at this point. And I always have enough data to spin theories! I was able to devise a comprehensive theory of tranquility based largely around a thirty second conversation with Karl.

I wish you had one too, CGG.

I'll accept your answers easily. The "abomination is just a catchall" makes as much sense as possible.

Likewise, I'd hope that one day in DLC or in a game proper we get to explore the Abomination issue better.

And I completely avoided the whole "do demons even die" thing which has also always bothered me. And if they do die, how are demons and spirits created? Things like this make me wish for a book that focused entirely on a Senior Enchanter who delves into the dark and forbidden to better understand the threat that all mages face.

You'd think it would be something the older guys especially put a lot of thought into. The younger ones are probably discouraged at all costs into researching into abominations (it's a subject that could go very badly for them).

Hell, even the Templars have something to gain if they can better understand abominations. Like the Uldred thing, why not bring in another Circle with a ton of lyrium and do what the Warden did with Connor. Just cast their spell and send in warriors to take back the Circle Mages?

There could even be a sect of mages who train entirely to combat demons in the Fade.

...

...whatever.

Areksu wrote...

First, about Connor in DA:O.
According to the dialogue, you can save a person who willingly accepts a
demon's offer, but not a person who was forcibly possessed (their souls
get "mangled" in the process). And yes, DA2 contradicts this with Anders.
Secondly, about there appearance. Its roid rage man. Demon-possessed roid rage. I have no idea honestly.
Thirdly,
the difference between an abomination and a spirit warrior/spirit
healer is who is in the driver's seat. If the possessed person keeps his
original personality then he/she is not an abomination. Anders is an
abomination because he is in a constant fight to maintain control of
himself, and his personality has been altered drastically by their
merging.

I honestly do not remember that, but I'll take your word on it for as long as no one brings up something that contradicts it.

The third thing about "if they have their personality they're not an abomination" the
only time I heard that said was if the Warden says that to Wynne.
That's hardly a fact, it could be the Warden just comforting a friend
who may lose her mind in a few years (Anders got worse as the game went
along, at least according to the Rival path).

[Areksu]

I believe the difference is that the spirit in Wynne is more than happy to sit back and let her do what she wants because her values match the spirit's. Ander's spirit wants to take vengeance on every templar in sight, so its not content being in the passenger seat. Dragon Age has been a bit vague on what constitutes an abomination. The way they are going right now, it would seem that the term abomination is just another way of saying that someone is possessed.

[yfullman]

Modifié par yfullman, 29 juin 2011 - 02:45 .

[yfullman]

The situation with Connor was different. The Demon spoke to connor through his dreams and never physically left the Fade or entered Connor. I guess it was some sort of mental link or something.

And as for demons idk. Demons hate us for simply existing at worse and use us as tools and hold us in contempt at best. But still they are, by nature, curious. So they come over here to experience what it means to be mortal for....SCIENCE... or...something. I guess in these possessions, since the human rejects the demon, and vise versa, a twisted looking abomination is formed.

But as we have seem with Uldred and others, people who willingly except the demon basically retain their form.

And with the Spirits I believe they come here to fulfill certain goal they deem worthy( Justice with freeing the mages, Wynne's spirit of Faith saving her and wanting to stop the Blight maybe? Or maybe that will be revealed in the upcoming book) and since they can't exist here without a host they possess someone, either a corpse or a willing host. And maybe they have less anger towards us or are just not as dickish as the demons so the let the human control the meat suit for the most part.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Also, bear in mind that there are Shaman in Rivain who do something crazy with allowing themselves to be possessed by fade spirits regularly. Like, as part of their JOB. If I could, I'd run Anders out there as fast as possible, see if they have any relevant wisdom regarding his situation.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I must state: I do not understand Abominations in the slightest. I mean that in every sense.

From a gameplay perspective I don't understand how a magic casting demon and a mage equal a weak melee unit.

From a story perspective...I just do not understand Abominations.

Sometimes it appears that abominations are just mindless hulking brutes with large tumors covering their bodies. They sometimes talk and show a form of thinking, other times they're slight animals destroying everything they come across.

Trust me, nobody understands how an Abomination says to himself "I've now possessed a mage! Let's get into some bar brawls and use my fists! Screw magic!"

From a Rage Abomination I could understand them being mindless drunkards trying to beat you up, but every other one should display something else. What I would want is this in regards to abominations (and demons):

• Rage Abomination: Fire spells and Drunkard attacks.
• Hunger Abomination: Tries to eat you whole. May even succeed, at which point you have to kill the abomination to free your ally. Also uses various low level to mid level spells.
• Sloth Abomination: Puts you to sleep on the field, and while you're asleep uses your energy to heal itself. Uses mid level spells of various sorts.
• Desire and Pride Abominations: These should be the toughest fights of all. They should use high level spells, and constantly change their attack pattern to keep you on your toes. The Pride Abominations (and Demons) should also use that vortex spell they used in DA2.

Sometimes the Abomination isn't an Abomination, like Uldred, instead they turn into a Demon.

No, Uldred is an Abomination. I guess the more powerful ones, the Pride Abominations, can turn into their demon form. The Baroness, Uldred, Marethari. All of them are Abominations, but we don't know much about them because of the Chantry and the Writers.

they're in cahoots! I'm telling you they're in cahoots with one another!

Sometimes the abomination is more of a possession, like Wynne, Connor, and Anders. This form of Abomination seems to 'merge' with the personality of the person (except for Wynne who seems the same without any difference with Faith).

Then there's the Duchess an Abomination who according to Justice has now become a demon, is that the explaination for Uldred? The Duchess had decades in the Fade using and feeding off of spirits/souls to become that. How did Uldred become a demon so quickly?

As I said above, I think it has to do with the strength of the demon.

And then there's the special case of Connor's possession, which is cured by killing the Desire Demon that possessed him. This can't be too special of a case since Irving, Jowen, and Morrigan all seem to know that you can go into the Fade and kill a demon and the possessed mage will revert to normal.

The ritual to kill the demon in the Fade doesn't even require the victim present since a floor and who know how far seperated the mages/Jowen and Connor.

Even more interesting is the fact that possessed mages like Anders and Connor have moments without the demon/spirit controlling them. This seems to imply that the demon exists in both the Fade and the mortal realm but can only focus on one area at a time, either in the host body or dwelling in the Fade.

Which means during these moments would it not be possible to tranquil the mage and thus lock the demon out of the mage forever?

Connor willingly let the demon possess him, so that's why he can be cured. I imagine the ritual uses something akin to the Dreamer ritual, where you enter their mindset to help them. Maybe using something as a focus? Alas, we're never shown this in DAO. In DA2, we were told that the home itself would act as a focus, so that showed us.

As for Anders, he merged with Justice who was pulled from the Fade entirely. He tells you this in Awakening. The Baroness sundered the Veil in her haste, and by doing so dragged Justice out of the Fade entirely. He exists only in the Mortal realm now. If he can return to the Fade is unknown.

And about the Tranquil bit, I doubt it would happen. Since the Spirit/Demon is in essence a part of the Fade, I don't think it would work. And there's no way to find out because the RoT isn't reversible, so volunteers aren't exactly lining up to ask a Spirit or Demon to possess them in the name of science magic.

OR is there some kind of difference between Abomination and Possessed Mage? If so then why do people (including possibly the Warden) think Flemeth is an Abomination while still maintaining a human appearance? There must be president of human looking Abominations (and there is we see mages transform in DA2 and Uldred force demons into mages in DA:O).

...

...I just don't understand Abominations.

It would be nice to find out more about them. I imagine Tevinter is the best place for that.

[Foolsfolly]

The situation with Connor was different. The Demon spoke to connor through his dreams and never physically left the Fade or entered Connor. I guess it was some sort of mental link or something.

If you do the Redcliffe quest before doing the Circle quest and then talk to Wynne in camp she'll ask if you have any experience with Abominations before. You can answer with Connor.

He's an Abomination. And Irving, Morrigan, and Jowan happen to believe you can waltz into the Fade and release him from the Demon's control. And in fact, you do!

There might be something special about the case but Irving, who knows nothing about the kid or observed anything about his behavior, says "Yes. That could work."

I don't know. It's an interesting question. Abomination really does feel like a catchall term for many specific kinds of demon/spirit and mage relations....

and since they can't exist here without a host they possess someone

Powerful demons...and summoned demons, seem to not need a body. The Duchess for example does not need a host. Nor do the dozens of demons in the DA2 finale.

I wish there were hard rules to demons and abominations. It'd be easier to talk about them. But everything seems up for grabs with them.

Also, bear in mind that there are Shaman in Rivain who do something crazy with allowing themselves to be possessed by fade spirits regularly. Like, as part of their JOB. If I could, I'd run Anders out there as fast as possible, see if they have any relevant wisdom regarding his situation.

That's too cool. We need a Rivani Shaman companion in DA3.

I think I remember Wilhelm trying to find out more about demons before he was unceremoniously squashed to death by Shale. I wish we could meet some live mages dedicating themselves to this field of study. The people knowing most about this would be the Tevinter magisters, but we have yet to meet any that doesn't gobble baby kidneys for breakfast. Since they seem to have a stable government I can only surmise that they're not turning into abominations left and right and have ways of dealing with those that do.

Queen-Of-Stuff, you have no idea how much I want DA3 to take place in Tevinter.

But it won't. It'll totally be Orlais...because we need more Chantry characters.

[megski]

I want to point out too that Wynne is possessed by a benevolent spirit, one that wants to help instead of harm. I think Justice says in awakening the main difference between a demon and a spirit, like him, is that demons are perverted by their desires, and a spirit like him has no such desires. I think I have read too that there are 12 benevolent spirits in the whole of the fade. I'm not sure though, I couldn't tell you where I read that.

Maybe mages turn into the ugly abominations because neither party can properly control the other, therefore creating a mass of grossness. Maybe more powerful mages attract more powerful demons who can find a better balance between the two, and appear human whenever its appropriate. That is just my theory though.

I think that Justice and Anders is cool because you don't necessarily have a demon/host relationship, but a benevolent spirit being corrupted by the desires of the host. I remember Wynne saying the spirit that possessed her had watched her for a long time before becoming a part of her, maybe a benevolent spirit has to be sure to pick the right host. Maybe things go horribly wrong if they don't pick a proper host...

[Foolsfolly]

Connor willingly let the demon possess him, so that's why he can be cured.

That's really interesting to me. So allowing yourself to possessed is cool for reversal. But if you resist the demon possession in anyway you're an abomination for life.

...

...man, being a mage sucks.

[Agamo45]

In DA:O, abominations were actual possessed mages. In DA2, they just teleport in like every other enemy.

[megski]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

These are questions I wonder as well. I think research on the matter of demons and abominations and the Fade is really, desperately needed. Learning more about them would be very beneficial. What if it was possible to prevent mages from becoming abomination, or create a device that could instantly kill any who become one?

I think I remember Wilhelm trying to find out more about demons before he was unceremoniously squashed to death by Shale. I wish we could meet some live mages dedicating themselves to this field of study. The people knowing most about this would be the Tevinter magisters, but we have yet to meet any that doesn't gobble baby kidneys for breakfast. Since they seem to have a stable government I can only surmise that they're not turning into abominations left and right and have ways of dealing with those that do.

On a side note, I wonder what happened to Shale.  Wynne said she was taking her to Tevinter because she wanted to be squishy again, hmmm..

Anyway!  I think that maybe a lot of what we or our characters know about Tevinter might be a lot of lore.  We know that some things are evil, but I wonder if a lot of it are just stories made up to scare people away.  It reminds me of in 300 when the spartan who lived is telling the story of how the persians are evil and scary.  

I guess this could be a problem too for citizens or mages outside of the imperium who want to study abominations, the tevinter magisters do that so its taboo.  

[Foolsfolly]

I think that Justice and Anders is cool because you don't necessarily have a demon/host relationship, but a benevolent spirit being corrupted by the desires of the host.

I think it's more complicated than that. Justice in Awakening rages against the plight of mages more than Anders does. He talks about how Anders got out and now he has a duty to get the rest of his people out.

Anders also had these desires. But I think its the fact that both were enraged about the Circles and the fact that Justice has a strict moral code and if you fell on the wrong side of that code the only punishment was death.

These things worked to corrupt Justice into what I honestly think is a demon. Justice goes by the name 'Vengeance' now which has more in common with Rage than Justice. And there is a Pride Demon in the game named Audacity.

As for Wynne, I'd be interested in seeing how the Spirit of Faith has changed (if it has) over the last 10 years when Asunder comes out.

[Foolsfolly]

Agamo45 wrote...

In DA:O, abominations were actual possessed mages. In DA2, they just teleport in like every other enemy.

That pissed me off so much. Like Cullen's introduction where the Templar turns into an Abomination and summons other Abominations out of the ground....

...

What?

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

In DA:O, abominations were actual possessed mages. In DA2, they just teleport in like every other enemy.

That pissed me off so much. Like Cullen's introduction where the Templar turns into an Abomination and summons other Abominations out of the ground....

...

What?

I too was incredibly pissed off by what they did.

What would even be a decent way for Abominations to appear in battle? Since we can't see the Meatball flesh sack conversion happen like we did with Thrask's daughter.

They're already Abominations, but if it happens outside and not in a tower like Kinloch Hold (Ferelden's Circle), how should they appear in battle?

[megski]

These things worked to corrupt Justice into what I honestly think is a demon. Justice goes by the name 'Vengeance' now which has more in common with Rage than Justice. And there is a Pride Demon in the game named Audacity.

I think I'm on the right track, and I think you're right.  I guess I'm being a little naive to think that things couldn't have gone that far, Justice becoming a demon I mean.  

I need to read the books.  I miss Wynne, she was like the grandma you complained to when things go too hard *tear*.  haha.  

Another thing too, I'm not sure where all these demons come from, I think that was mentioned.  Weren't all of the magical people in the begining turned into darkspawn for being bad?  The good ones turned into the benevolent spirits by the maker?  I need to do some research I guess.  

[megski]

Areksu wrote...

I believe the difference is that the spirit in Wynne is more than happy to sit back and let her do what she wants because her values match the spirit's. Ander's spirit wants to take vengeance on every templar in sight, so its not content being in the passenger seat. Dragon Age has been a bit vague on what constitutes an abomination. The way they are going right now, it would seem that the term abomination is just another way of saying that someone is possessed.

This is a good point.  I think is a good explanation as to how the spirit operates.  

[TheBlackBaron]

As far as DA:O and its extra content goes, I think Abomination is simply a catch-all term used to describe various stages and forms of demonic possession. Think of the way we use "the flu" as a generic term, even though there are literally hundreds of different strains of the influenza virus of variable severity and symptoms.

Due to being one of the go-to choices for enemies in DA2's wave combat system, I would probably just disregard anything about them from it. I think it's safe to say that they do not, in fact, abruptly teleport out of the floor at random intervals (and granted, DA:O was also guilty of this).

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I think that Justice and Anders is cool because you don't necessarily have a demon/host relationship, but a benevolent spirit being corrupted by the desires of the host.

I think it's more complicated than that. Justice in Awakening rages against the plight of mages more than Anders does. He talks about how Anders got out and now he has a duty to get the rest of his people out.

Anders also had these desires. But I think its the fact that both were enraged about the Circles and the fact that Justice has a strict moral code and if you fell on the wrong side of that code the only punishment was death.

These things worked to corrupt Justice into what I honestly think is a demon. Justice goes by the name 'Vengeance' now which has more in common with Rage than Justice. And there is a Pride Demon in the game named Audacity.

As for Wynne, I'd be interested in seeing how the Spirit of Faith has changed (if it has) over the last 10 years when Asunder comes out.

I disagree that Vengeance has more in common with rage than justice. I think it's the sweet spot right between the two. However, when it goes too far, it may require the outside intervention of a being of justice and protection to temper its destructive forces.

There's an illustrative elven parable here, if I may: 

Once, long ago, there was only the Sun and the Earth. When the Sun became curious about the Earth and bent to touch her, Elgar'nan was born. As a gift, the Earth created life, and Elgar'nan enjoyed all the things she had created. The Sun grew jealous of Elgar'nan's love of the Earth's creations, and burned them all with the full force of his spite. The Earth cracked and cried, creating the rivers and oceans. Elgar'nan was furious at the sun, and wrestled him down from the sky, and buried him in the darkness beneath the Earth, Then he tried to recreate all that which the sun had destroyed, but the Earth knew that without the Sun, none of the life she had previously brought forth could flourish, but Elgar'nan was too stubborn and prideful to admit that he was wrong. That's when Mythal rose from the sea and calmed Elgar'nan, convincing him that he was being unjust and that his anger had lead him astray. He relented, and allowed the Sun to return to the sky, and life was restored.

Without Vengeance, evil may persist unchallenged, and to harm the weak. But Vengeance can be tamed by the love of a calm spirit of Justice. Neither of them are evil though, they are both our parents.

Well... "our" being relative. I still think that the parable is illustrative, regardless of your personal... ahem... genealogy. 

Vengeance isn't rage. Vengeance is something that even Batman can get behind.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2011 - 04:24 .

[Foolsfolly]

What would even be a decent way for Abominations to appear in battle? Since we can't see the Meatball flesh sack conversion happen like we did with Thrask's daughter.

They're already Abominations, but if it happens outside and not in a tower like Kinloch Hold (Ferelden's Circle), how should they appear in battle?

Since everything else, including mabari, fall from the sky why couldn't Abominations?

Of course, I'd rather have them spawn around a corner or in the distance and have them run onto the player's screen.

That's how the waving mechanic in Bloodmoon worked. Instead of having enemies spawn on top of the player they spawned around the player in a distance and then rushed the player. It forced you to fight one front then as reinforcements came from another, turn and hit them.

If you're not doing the Origins style of enemies already placed on the map, I'd ape that from Bloodmoon.

[Recycled Human]

Tamlen talks about the undead version of the abomination and his definition seems to fit the best. Spirits can cross over where the veil is thin and they try and possess whatever they can (though preferably human and often mages) sometimes that includes the undead (or even the trees). In so doing they 'sometimes go mad'. So the dalish seem to hold that the fade creatures have multiple states of being.

On one hand they can be in perfect control of their host (uldred was like this; a pride demon) and in others they go insane perhaps the will of the host is in a struggle with the will of the fade creature (anders : justice was a good virtue till he joined with Anders and experienced his hate changing him into vengeance) and sometimes they work together harmoniously (wynne). As for Connor, I always though of him as 'almost an abomination' the demon had him trapped but the soul wasn't entirely given over yet. As if they caught him in the midst of his struggle. Reminds me a bit of the girl with the cat, the demon was still trying to sink her claws in.

Anders seems to be consistant with the theory considering justice turned into vengeance when he joined with the Anders.

As for aboms being brutes when they should be mages, I think that is because the spirit itself was not strong enough to use it's current form to its full potential, possibly also do to the madness. Not all demons are super powerful.

[TEWR]

megski wrote...

These things worked to corrupt Justice into what I honestly think is a demon. Justice goes by the name 'Vengeance' now which has more in common with Rage than Justice. And there is a Pride Demon in the game named Audacity.

I think I'm on the right track, and I think you're right.  I guess I'm being a little naive to think that things couldn't have gone that far, Justice becoming a demon I mean.  

I need to read the books.  I miss Wynne, she was like the grandma you complained to when things go too hard *tear*.  haha.  

Another thing too, I'm not sure where all these demons come from, I think that was mentioned.  Weren't all of the magical people in the begining turned into darkspawn for being bad?  The good ones turned into the benevolent spirits by the maker?  I need to do some research I guess.  

for Darkspawn, the Chantry's version claims that the Magisters' hubris caused the Darkspawn, but the Dwarves tell a much different story:

The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage.

At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong.

--As told by Shaper Czibor.[/i]


Take note of the bolded portion, where they say "creatures in our own likeness". What Darkspawn look like dwarves? Genlocks.

Add into that the Primeval Thaig and Red Lyrium, and well....


Also, my personal opinion is that Justice is either one of three things:

• A Spirit and Demon intertwined as one being. This is usually what I argue.
  
• Still a Spirit of Justice but very determined, as the only source of his twisting into a demon that we have is Anders, who isn't an expert in that field.
  
• A Spirit of Vengeance, which isn't a demon, but only the darker side of Justice. Justice and vengeance are two sides of the same coin, with one side being a darker shade after all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juin 2011 - 04:28 .