292 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

DreamerM wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd actually really like for Morrigan to be Alistair's half sister.....

Ew. No. Luke/Leia except grosser. Please no. Please please no.

It is very ew. But I'd enjoy seeing people vomit because of it!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
As for Irving, it's either another thing that makes no sense whatsoever or it's because he's extremely old.

He's voiced by Steve Blum. Spike Speigel sneers at such concerns as age and mortality.

Very true.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No strain on the mind in any form. Feynriel's mind isn't stressed out any more when Torpor wants to do his possession dance.

You'd think more demons would try and relax their victims before the final deal, then. As it is, they don't seem overly concerned with pleasentries.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I know Connor might bring up a question about how intact his mind was, but we don't know the exact conditions of his possession (which I think should've been shown in the Fade when you go to save him)

We saw him running around, calling for his father. He looked distressed to me.

[TEWR]

DreamerM wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No strain on the mind in any form. Feynriel's mind isn't stressed out any more when Torpor wants to do his possession dance.

You'd think more demons would try and relax their victims before the final deal, then. As it is, they don't seem overly concerned with pleasentries.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I know Connor might bring up a question about how intact his mind was, but we don't know the exact conditions of his possession (which I think should've been shown in the Fade when you go to save him)

We saw him running around, calling for his father. He looked distressed to me.

I thought that was just a demonized version of Connor making illusions.


I would've liked to see the exact deal that happened. Like the mage is shown a memory of all the events that transpired.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:44 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You would think Isabela, the Rivaini daughter of someone who tried to be a Seer (whether she was one is unknown, but Isabela doesn't seem to think so), would know something.

Isabela said her mother pretended to be one, but it only seems to be reversable if the possession was consensual, which First Enchanter Irving stressed about Connor's possession. Technically, since Anders agreed to merge with Justice, seperating the two should technically be no different. However, in the Fade, Justice seems to be "one" with Anders, rather than seperate from him - which is odd since the short story made it seem that Justice was already in the Fade when the symbiosis took place.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

In Feynriel's case, he was being worked in different ways by three different demons. The methods demons use to try and catch their mage-prey appears to depend on the demon.

The Pride demon was trying to make him see and believe how great he could be. The Desire demon was trying to tempt him with a family he'd always wanted.

Torpor, the Sloth demon, wanted him to relax and believe everything would be all right. That's a similar method to what the Sloth demon in DA:O does...the PC is in the dream-version of Weisshaupt and told by 'Duncan' that the battle is over, you can rest and be at peace.

That said, I don't believe all abominations/possessions are a result of bargains, but the mage giving the demon a specific sort of access. In all cases it's a lowering of guard and weakening of will, but a certain *kind*. Circle mages are undoubtedly trained to guard against anger and incaution, but it isn't until they're seriously under the hammer that they find out how strong they really are.

A strong-willed mage who didn't give into anger, hunger or letting his guard down would only be accessibly by Desire and Pride, who try to tempt and promise and lure.

So again, I don't think an actual bargain is what always happens to have a mage possessed.

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torpor could only possess Feynriel when his mind was intact. I think that an intact mage mind allows for the Abomination to not become mindless.

The comments made earlier in the thread by Mr. Epler seem to indicate that the stronger the mage, the stronger the demon that mage attracts. The stronger the demon and mage the more intelligent the abomination likely will be.

The weaker mage/demon the more likely the merging will obliterate both personalities.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I don't think that's exactly what Epler said.

My understanding was that a mage with magical, political, or other power is in a strong bargaining position, and can demand more from demons. Stronger demons have more to offer in the form of temptations, which often balances things out, but if the mage has a significant advantage over the demon, he could make other parts of the contract more agreeable to him. For example, he could maintain full control of his body most of the time.

This bargaining process is entirely different than the more typical forceful abomination process, where a demon desperate to see the world forces he way into a weaker mage's body. If the difference in power is small then the mage's resistance will be enough to shatter both his and the demon's minds. If the difference in power is huge (say, a pride demon and a cat) then the demon simply steps in, unharmed, and takes control.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torpor could only possess Feynriel when his mind was intact. I think that an intact mage mind allows for the Abomination to not become mindless.

The comments made earlier in the thread by Mr. Epler seem to indicate that the stronger the mage, the stronger the demon that mage attracts. The stronger the demon and mage the more intelligent the abomination likely will be.

The weaker mage/demon the more likely the merging will obliterate both personalities.

Eh. I think Torpor could still have possessed Feynriel. But Torpor doesn't *want* to possess a mage with a shredded mind--the whole point of going after Feynriel was that he was a Dreamer (Somniari). If that part of him is damaged, the whole point of taking him over is gone.

[DreamerM]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

This bargaining process is entirely different than the more typical forceful abomination process, where a demon desperate to see the world forces he way into a weaker mage's body.

Have we actually seen Demons "force" themselves into a mage like this? It seems to me like an untrained mageling with lots of raw potential and no defenses couldn't walk two steps without becoming possessed if that was the case. I still think a demon, great and powerful or not, requires some form of consent before it can take up residence in a mage.
Although we did see Ulrich forcing demons into unwilling mages somehow using blood magic, so maybe he mind-controlled them into agreement....

[Foolsfolly]

Have we actually seen Demons "force" themselves into a mage like this? It seems to me like an untrained mageling with lots of raw potential and no defenses couldn't walk two steps without becoming possessed if that was the case.

We saw Uldred force mages into being Abominations somehow.

....must be similar.

I don't think that's exactly what Epler said.

I didn't say that's what he said. I said:

The comments made earlier in the thread by Mr. Epler seem to indicate

Very different thing. Also he isn't a writer, as he said in this thread. He merely has a very well informed opinion.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

We saw Uldred force mages into being Abominations somehow.

....must be similar.

We also protected those mages with the Litany of Andralla, which guards against blood magic mind control, not demonic possession. Which is why I theorize that Uldred used blood-magic to mind-control mages into agreeing to become possessed. That the demons can't enter a mage otherwise.

[LobselVith8]

DreamerM wrote...

Although we did see Ulrich forcing demons into unwilling mages somehow using blood magic, so maybe he mind-controlled them into agreement....

First Enchanter Irving and the other enchanters seem to have been tortured by Abomination Uldred, and the veil was weak (as the US ending indicates for the Magi Hero of Ferelden).

[TEWR]

DreamerM wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

We saw Uldred force mages into being Abominations somehow.

....must be similar.

We also protected those mages with the Litany of Andralla, which guards against blood magic mind control, not demonic possession. Which is why I theorize that Uldred used blood-magic to mind-control mages into agreeing to become possessed. That the demons can't enter a mage otherwise.

and then after the battle when we've saved them all they suffer massive heart attacks caused by a severe fungal infection of the toe that spread rapidly which was brought on by stepping on a nail, even though they didn't move during the whole entire battle

[DreamerM]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Although we did see Ulrich forcing demons into unwilling mages somehow using blood magic, so maybe he mind-controlled them into agreement....

First Enchanter Irving and the other enchanters seem to have been tortured by Abomination Uldred, and the veil was weak (as the US ending indicates for the Magi Hero of Ferelden).

Where ISN'T the Veil weak, I swear... We got Lake Calanhad...Blackmarsh.... Kirkwall... That forest place with the werewolves... Vigil's Keep... really...

And we know Alric and other Templar (according to Anders, anyway) were torturing mages to see how much pain it took to send them "running into the arms of demons," which I took to mean they'd make them suffer until they got so desperate they called for a demon to try and save themselves. Because I guess you'll try anything when you're desperate.

Although I've always had a problem with the leap of logic required on the mage's part for using blood magic to try and save themselves. The best-case scenario has your new Demonically-Enhanced-Self killing the people threatening you....but then what? It's not like the demon will leave when the danger is passed. You accept a demon, you accept it forever...unless you're conner... which is confusing.

[Foolsfolly]

We also protected those mages with the Litany of Andralla, which guards against blood magic mind control, not demonic possession. Which is why I theorize that Uldred used blood-magic to mind-control mages into agreeing to become possessed. That the demons can't enter a mage otherwise.

Interesting theory.

I just assumed Uldred and that little cabal of Abominations were connecting the mages to the Fade similar to the Harrowing (since it takes place in the Harrowing chamber) and more or less feeding the mages to waiting hungry demons.

Your theory is more morally horrible. Which makes it just as likely as my own.

[Foolsfolly]

Where ISN'T the Veil weak, I swear... We got Lake Calanhad...Blackmarsh.... Kirkwall... That forest place with the werewolves... Vigil's Keep... really...

You forgot Soldier's Peak and the Mountains above Kirkwall as well. I cannot remember the name of the mountain but there was a battle there and blah, blah, Pride Demon trapped in a statue...

...but you're right. Damn. It may be time to lessen up on the 'The Veil's Weak' thing. It's kinda weak all over.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...
I just assumed Uldred and that little cabal of Abominations were connecting the mages to the Fade similar to the Harrowing (since it takes place in the Harrowing chamber) and more or less feeding the mages to waiting hungry demons.

Which I'd call perfectly likely, but which would leave the Litany unexplained. Andralla's stated specialty was blood magic, not demonology. I'm not sure if you could use the Litany to prevent or stop a Harrowing-style link-up.

How DO they do that anyway?

[Foolsfolly]

Which I'd call perfectly likely, but which would leave the Litany unexplained.

Which is exactly why the 'blood magic'd into wanting to be possessed' is such a good and likely theory as well.

How DO they do that anyway?

All I know is...

WAIT!

Liquid lyrium! That's from the Harrowing. The lyrium is used to enter the Fade. The Abominations are not using lyrium. They're using blood magic. The litany severs the blood magic connection to the Fade!

HAHA! No prizes for everyone!

[MinotaurWarrior]

DreamerM wrote...

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

This bargaining process is entirely different than the more typical forceful abomination process, where a demon desperate to see the world forces he way into a weaker mage's body.

Have we actually seen Demons "force" themselves into a mage like this? It seems to me like an untrained mageling with lots of raw potential and no defenses couldn't walk two steps without becoming possessed if that was the case. I still think a demon, great and powerful or not, requires some form of consent before it can take up residence in a mage.
Although we did see Ulrich forcing demons into unwilling mages somehow using blood magic, so maybe he mind-controlled them into agreement....

We don't spend any extended period of time dealing with such a thing explicitly, by the codex says, " a demon always attempts to possess a mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal depending on the strength of the mage." I'm fairly certain this is what happened to the majority of mages in the Circle in DA:O, and is probably where most of the normal abominations you encounter throughout the two games and expansion pack come from. Without a doubt, the Templars being abominified definitely didn't consent.

Just like with the veil being "especially weak" everywhere, I think abominations have fallen prey to special snowflake syndrome: we pretty much only encounter the 'rare' exceptions to the rules.

Modifié par MinotaurWarrior, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[DreamerM]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...
We don't spend any extended period of time dealing with such a thing explicitly, by the codex says, " a demon always attempts to possess a mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal depending on the strength of the mage."

Point...but how exactly would a demon possess a mage "by force?" What does that entail? Does the demon shove their hand down the mage's throat and pull themselves in or something?

I'm fairly certain this is what happened to the majority of mages in the Circle in DA:O, and is probably where most of the normal abominations you encounter throughout the two games and expansion pack come from. Without a doubt, the Templars being abominified definitely didn't consent.

True, but the Templars also had their memories wiped and were under layers and layers of blood magic mind control. And if you can mind-control someone into accepting a demon, then that could work. A better question about the Templarbinations was how they got a demon into the body of someone who isn't a mage. Mages supposedly have a connection to the Fade, which is why they can walk around it while awake, but everybody enters the fade when they dream, right? And since that's where the demons live, Whats-her-name figured out some way to get demons in while the Templars slept...I don't know.

[LobselVith8]

DreamerM wrote...

Although I've always had a problem with the leap of logic required on the mage's part for using blood magic to try and save themselves. The best-case scenario has your new Demonically-Enhanced-Self killing the people threatening you....but then what? It's not like the demon will leave when the danger is passed. You accept a demon, you accept it forever...unless you're conner... which is confusing.

Blood mages don't need to deal with a demon to learn blood magic, as it's inferred Jowan learns from books, Anders asks Merrill if she learned the art from her own blood, the Ages article mentions scholars thinking the Tevinter mages learned blood magic from the Arlathan elves (which could fit with Merrill's claim that blood magic is part of the People's history), and it's acknowledged blood magic is used by some mages: "Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

[DreamerM]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood mages don't need to deal with a demon to learn blood magic, as it's inferred Jowan learns from books,

Jowan probably learned from those books how to call a demon and made a bargain too, because Jowan is absolutely stupid enough to do that. He studied blood magic before he practiced it, but I'm not convinced that you can actually use it effectively without some Demonic influence. I know the PC can't unlock the Blood Mage specialization without it.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders asks Merrill if she learned the art from her own blood,

I inferred that to mean that mage can use blood magic unintentionally. He asks if she just cut her hand without realizing it's power. She's quick to point out that she has, in fact, dealt directly with a demon, so she knew what she was doing.

I'm not sure how much blood magic you can use "by accident." I think you actually need some Demonic help if you're going to use blood in any real significant way. Fortunately it seems like one thing a mage, any mage, never has any problem with is attracting a demon when they actually want one.

[Foolsfolly]

I inferred that to mean that mage can use blood magic unintentionally.

I thought he was just hoping she didn't do it by making a deal with a demon. Then she confirms his fears and he preaches to her, hilarious given his circumstances...but all Mages in DA2 are blood mages and abominations...except for Bethany....who's likely dead.

[Torax]

Just for accuracy sake. Since some were mentioning places with a thin veil and so on. The Mage's Prison mentioned in the Magi Origin is one such place that supposedly uses the issue to their advantage.

The Aeonar

"When the Imperium occupied the area that is present-day Ferelden, they had two sites dedicated to magical experimentation at the extreme ends of the Imperial Highway. The southern one was the fortress of Ostagar, which looked out over the Korcari Wilds. The northern one was Aeonar, although the exact location is now a secret known only to a handful of Templars.

Whatever it was the Tevinter were trying to discover at Aeonar, their work was never completed. The fortress was overrun by disciples of Andraste upon hearing the news of her death. According to legend, it was a massacre-eerily silent, for the invaders caught the mages while all but one of them were in the Fade.

The site was left structurally sound but spiritually damaged. Possibly because of this, the Chantry chose to put it to use as a prison. Accused maleficarum and apostates are held in the confines of Aeonar. Those who have a powerful connection to the Fade, and particularly to demons, will inevitably attract something across the Veil, making the guilty somewhat easier to tell from the innocent.

--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar."

[Foolsfolly]

Why not just kill the mages you're bringing there. What a backwards system.

...

...that said I hope we go there in DA3 or some DLC. Be interesting place to investigate.