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[DreamerM]

Torax wrote...
The Aeonar

"When the Imperium occupied the area that is present-day Ferelden, they had two sites dedicated to magical experimentation at the extreme ends of the Imperial Highway. The southern one was the fortress of Ostagar, which looked out over the Korcari Wilds. The northern one was Aeonar, although the exact location is now a secret known only to a handful of Templars.

Whatever it was the Tevinter were trying to discover at Aeonar, their work was never completed. The fortress was overrun by disciples of Andraste upon hearing the news of her death. According to legend, it was a massacre-eerily silent, for the invaders caught the mages while all but one of them were in the Fade.

The site was left structurally sound but spiritually damaged. Possibly because of this, the Chantry chose to put it to use as a prison. Accused maleficarum and apostates are held in the confines of Aeonar. Those who have a powerful connection to the Fade, and particularly to demons, will inevitably attract something across the Veil, making the guilty somewhat easier to tell from the innocent.

--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar."

Great, ANOTHER place where "The Veil is Weak." That Veil's got more holes then a swiss cheese storehouse under attack by the Mouse Armies of the Universe.

And also, they put MAGES in a PRISON where the Veil is sure to let through lots of demons and the like. Great, they want abominations to execute, heck they make them that way on purpose. Great move, Chantry, really great move. How long do you have to sit there unpossessed before they conclude you're innocent? Or what if you're innocent, but also just bad at handling demons and weak-veil-ness? Functionally the same thing?

Gag.

[Foolsfolly]

All I knew of Aeonar before was that the Chantry girl Jowen was sweet on didn't want to go there. But if it's a mage prison and not just a prison.....why would a non-mage go there?

Whatever.

....it is really stupid to bring mages to a place to go abomination instead of just...hacking their head off or tranquiling them.

[Torax]

Foolsfolly wrote...

All I knew of Aeonar before was that the Chantry girl Jowen was sweet on didn't want to go there. But if it's a mage prison and not just a prison.....why would a non-mage go there?

Whatever.

....it is really stupid to bring mages to a place to go abomination instead of just...hacking their head off or tranquiling them.

3 reasons she'd go there.

1. It's likely one of the most foritified places in all of Fereldon much like Ostagar supposedly was. That way the studies of Tevinter were well protected.

2. It's a secret location so the mage which was soon to be made tranquil would never be able to find her. It's a win for both.

3. She is an Initiate who broke many rules in particular in sharing information from the desk of the Knight Commander with a mage of the Circle pertaining to him. This sort of prisoner could have other imformation they would be willing to share/sell so keeping them in a more public prison is not a sound decision.


I'm not a supporter of the templars or the chantry but from a logic standpoint she was not just any ordinary bad initiate. Even if her actions were guided by honest emotions. She should have seen through Jowain and she did not. So she deserves her fate. Jowain's desparation should have tipped her off that it had to be more than just an assumption against him. He was truly desparate and nervious cause he knew he was guilty and was lieing to her the entire time.

[Foolsfolly]

I don't know. Seems really harsh for just helping her boyfriend who she believed wasn't a blood mage. I mean she even threw herself on the sword when she found out he was a blood mage. She's guilty but that's a harsh punishment.

Why not the local jail or some forced work camp for a bit. Why send her to a heavily fortified hell where mages go to be possessed and put down like rabid dogs?

[Torax]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't know. Seems really harsh for just helping her boyfriend who she believed wasn't a blood mage. I mean she even threw herself on the sword when she found out he was a blood mage. She's guilty but that's a harsh punishment.

Why not the local jail or some forced work camp for a bit. Why send her to a heavily fortified hell where mages go to be possessed and put down like rabid dogs?

If a secretary at a prison helped to let an inmate escape and was caught in the act using information from the Warden's office to do so. Should she not be punished? For starters we do not know at this point if Fereldon truly has more traditional prisons and not just prisons of the individual arls. Aeonar appears so far to be the only mentioned prison in Fereldon that would be under complete control of the Chantry and the Templars.

[DreamerM]

Torax wrote...

If a secretary at a prison helped to let an inmate escape and was caught in the act using information from the Warden's office to do so. Should she not be punished? For starters we do not know at this point if Fereldon truly has more traditional prisons and not just prisons of the individual arls. Aeonar appears so far to be the only mentioned prison in Fereldon that would be under complete control of the Chantry and the Templars.

Most real world prisons don't have to worry about an inmate turning into a monster in the middle of roll-call or dinner. Yes, Lily should have been in trouble, but sending her to a weak-veiled prison that is STATED as being for mages suspected of being malificar makes no sense at all. They should be planning to send Jowan there, if anyone, and transfer Lily somewhere else for diciplining. If it's just a Chantry prison, then the Veil shouldn't matter.

Come to think of it, why have a "prison for mages" at all? It seems to me like Circles deal with suspected-and-confirmed Malificar on their own, either making them Tranquil or killing them, depending on the crime and the evidence against the mage in question. Even when Arl Eamon has to decide what to do with Jowen (if he's still around) there's no option to send him to Aeonar, they just send him back to the Circle where he becomes Gregior and Irving's problem again.

[LobselVith8]

DreamerM wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood mages don't need to deal with a demon to learn blood magic, as it's inferred Jowan learns from books,

Jowan probably learned from those books how to call a demon and made a bargain too, because Jowan is absolutely stupid enough to do that. He studied blood magic before he practiced it, but I'm not convinced that you can actually use it effectively without some Demonic influence. I know the PC can't unlock the Blood Mage specialization without it.

If you think Jowan is stupid, then how could he possibly deal with a demon without becoming an abomination? And The Warden unlocks the blood mage specialization through the Desire Demon because it isn't openly taught, but the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him (or her) blood magic, which indicates that the Orlesian Warden - a learned scholar of the arcane arts - doesn't think that only demons can teach it if he's asking a mage to provide him instruction.

DreamerM wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders asks Merrill if she learned the art from her own blood,

I inferred that to mean that mage can use blood magic unintentionally. He asks if she just cut her hand without realizing it's power. She's quick to point out that she has, in fact, dealt directly with a demon, so she knew what she was doing.

I'm not sure how much blood magic you can use "by accident." I think you actually need some Demonic help if you're going to use blood in any real significant way. Fortunately it seems like one thing a mage, any mage, never has any problem with is attracting a demon when they actually want one.

If Anders acknowledges that Merrill could have learned it by accident, it's another example that blood magic isn't prohibited to only being learned by demons.

[DreamerM]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If you think Jowan is stupid, then how could he possibly deal with a demon without becoming an abomination?

There are different kinds of stupidity. Jowan was a skilled mage (not as skilled as Amell/Surana, but still) with terminally bad judgement. He's the dude who's never made a good choice in his entire life. But he's not incompetant.

LobselVith8 wrote...
And The Warden unlocks the blood mage specialization through the Desire Demon because it isn't openly taught, but the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him (or her) blood magic, which indicates that the Orlesian Warden - a learned scholar of the arcane arts - doesn't think that only demons can teach it if he's asking a mage to provide him instruction.

Where do you think the Baroness learned her skills? I guarentee it wasn't from books.

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Anders acknowledges that Merrill could have learned it by accident,

He said she could have USED it by accident, which is not the same as LEARNING it by accident. If she cut her hand and made a thing happen, she doesn't neccessarily know what it was that she did or why it worked. How far she could get by just experimenting this way is unclear, but I imagine it'd be a very, very fast way to get a demon to show up and ask "hey, could I help you with that?:happy:"

[LobselVith8]

DreamerM wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And The Warden unlocks the blood mage specialization through the Desire Demon because it isn't openly taught, but the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him (or her) blood magic, which indicates that the Orlesian Warden - a learned scholar of the arcane arts - doesn't think that only demons can teach it if he's asking a mage to provide him instruction.

Where do you think the Baroness learned her skills? I guarentee it wasn't from books.

But if the Orlesian Warden expects another mage to teach him blood magic, than it's not a craft that's exclusive only to demons teaching mages how to learn it.

[TEWR]

There are different kinds of stupidity. Jowan was a skilled mage (not as skilled as Amell/Surana, but still) with terminally bad judgement. He's the dude who's never made a good choice in his entire life. But he's not incompetant.

Not true. He does make some good choices depending on the Warden's actions. He either returns to fix the mess that's happened or he protects refugees from the Blight.

That shows that he does make good choices eventually.

And in my fanfic, Jowan shall become a Warden.

[Foolsfolly]

If you think Jowan is stupid, then how could he possibly deal with a demon without becoming an abomination? And The Warden unlocks the blood mage specialization through the Desire Demon because it isn't openly taught, but the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him (or her) blood magic, which indicates that the Orlesian Warden - a learned scholar of the arcane arts - doesn't think that only demons can teach it if he's asking a mage to provide him instruction.

Justice says the Baroness is a demon now.

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If you think Jowan is stupid, then how could he possibly deal with a demon without becoming an abomination? And The Warden unlocks the blood mage specialization through the Desire Demon because it isn't openly taught, but the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him (or her) blood magic, which indicates that the Orlesian Warden - a learned scholar of the arcane arts - doesn't think that only demons can teach it if he's asking a mage to provide him instruction.

Justice says the Baroness is a demon now.

Justice informs the Orlesian Warden about this after everyone was been thrown into the real world - but when the Orlesian Warden is in the Fade, he's asking a mage to provide him with the knowledge of blood magic.

[Foolsfolly]

Unless being cast out of the Fade is the thing that turned the Baroness into a demon (I have no answers about that) then it's still a demon teaching blood magic.

That said, we know books teach blood magic too. So it's not impossible for a mage to learn Blood magic from a mage.

Just saying the Baroness is likely a demon even in the Fade.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...
That said, we know books teach blood magic too. So it's not impossible for a mage to learn Blood magic from a mage.

We know books teach about blood magic. Can you actually learn the specialization from a book?

Modifié par DreamerM, 03 juillet 2011 - 03:27 .

[Foolsfolly]

I dunno know.

Isn't there a book for it in the tavern in Awakening if you don't have it? Plus, Hawke knows it without being taught.

The only thing I can point to is that Jowen had books and that one chick from DA2 learned from those tomes.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 03 juillet 2011 - 03:37 .

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I dunno know.

Isn't there a book for it in the tavern in Awakening if you don't have it? Plus, Hawke knows it without being taught.

The only thing I can point to is that Jowen had books and that one chick from DA2 learned from those tomes.

My guess is that Merrill taught Hawke.

[Icy Magebane]

You can learn Blood Magic long before meeting Merrill, and books are just in-game resources to make up for the fact that there is no quest in DA:A. Lore states that you need to drink dragon's blood to become a Reaver, but you can learn that from a book in DA:A, and in DA2, you can learn it before you fight the Act 1 dragon... it's a matter of convenience IMO. For my own rp purposes, I always hold off on learning specs until after the first dragon is killed (Reaver) or Hawke has passed into Act 2 (Templar)... without getting too deep into the specifics of my own rps, I think it's reasonable for the player to come up with whatever other ideas they may have regarding this (like Merrill teaching Hawke Blood Magic).

But in terms of pure gameplay, it's just something they added without making the player actually accomplish anything to reap those benefits. I think all specializations would have held more weight if they reflected the lore in some way.

[MinotaurWarrior]

DreamerM wrote...
 how exactly would a demon possess a mage "by force?" What does that entail? Does the demon shove their hand down the mage's throat and pull themselves in or something?

How exactly do they do it with the mages consent? Does the mage help the demon get their hand down the mages throat?

My belief, unsupported by evidence, is that everyone has a sort of gateway to the fade in their head. Let's just call it the pineal gland. For normal people, this allows them to draw imagination and emotion into their mind. For a mage, this doorway is much more substantial, and they can pull imagined fireballs and felt horror into the real world as spells. When a demon makes a pact with a mage, the mage actively pulls the demon into the world, or their mind, through this doorway. When a mage doesn't agree to this, the demon will try to force their way in. But the mage has tight control over this doorway, and has a fair chance of holding it closed to the demon. However, a sufficiently powerful demon (or one who encounters a remarkably weak mage) can just force that doorway open for himself.

 

how they got a demon into the body of someone who isn't a mage. Mages supposedly have a connection to the Fade, which is why they can walk around it while awake, but everybody enters the fade when they dream, right? And since that's where the demons live, Whats-her-name figured out some way to get demons in while the Templars slept...I don't know.

I think that's pretty much exactly what they did. All non-dwarven non-tranquil have a connection to the fade. Normally, demons either don't notice it, or cannot squeeze through the tiny gateway. However, with a mage's guidance and help, the demons managed to force their way through.

Modifié par MinotaurWarrior, 03 juillet 2011 - 08:29 .

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Isn't there a book for it in the tavern in Awakening if you don't have it? Plus, Hawke knows it without being taught.

Hawke probably learns blood magic in the same place his companions will react to his use of blood magic: offscreen.

Foolsfolly wrote...
The only thing I can point to is that Jowen had books and that one chick from DA2 learned from those tomes.

We know lots of books have been written about blood magic. What I'm wondering is if a book can also teach you to use it. Someone earlier brought up the difference between reading about renaissance art and actually being a renaissance artist.

Anders says to Fenris that "to use blood magic, you have to look a demon in the eye and accept his offer." He sure makes it sound like that bit isn't optional if you're going to use that school of magic effectively.

[Foolsfolly]

Fenris isn't a mage and his bias is well known.

...is there a blood magic quote from Irving or Wynne or some reasonable mage we can use?

Not that it much matters, I assume you can learn about anything from a book. After all, all a mage needs is the principles of blood magic and then trial and error will get them knowledge on it.

It's not some hard to use spell, it's just a means of using blood as an energy source.

[LobselVith8]

DreamerM wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Isn't there a book for it in the tavern in Awakening if you don't have it? Plus, Hawke knows it without being taught.

Hawke probably learns blood magic in the same place his companions will react to his use of blood magic: offscreen.

I heard that's when Hawke does all the awesome stuff. 

DreamerM wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The only thing I can point to is that Jowen had books and that one chick from DA2 learned from those tomes.

We know lots of books have been written about blood magic. What I'm wondering is if a book can also teach you to use it. Someone earlier brought up the difference between reading about renaissance art and actually being a renaissance artist.

Anders says to Fenris that "to use blood magic, you have to look a demon in the eye and accept his offer." He sure makes it sound like that bit isn't optional if you're going to use that school of magic effectively. 

But Anders also asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident, so he's clearly talking about the scenerio where a mage learns blood magic from a demon, as the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic when he sees as a fellow mage that he's informed is also a blood mage.

[DreamerM]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I heard that's when Hawke does all the awesome stuff.

I heard the same. We should check out this "offfscreen" place and see what we've been missing.

LobselVith8 wrote...
But Anders also asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident,

He asks if she USED blood magic by accident, not if she learned it. He asks if she cut her hand without knowing what it was that she was doing. This implies that blood has power for any mage regardless of demonic-bargain status, but again, how much blood you could INTENTIONALLY use for blood magic before a demon would show up is a question never answered.

LobselVith8 wrote...
the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic when he sees as a fellow mage that he's informed is also a blood mage.

The Baroness has become a demon. At least according to Justice, but since I think he'd know, I'll take his word for it. So learning blood magic from The Barroness is still learning from a demon.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Well, there's a Blood Magic tome in Awakening that lets you learn the spec. And Mage!Hawke can learn Blood Magic without a demon teaching it...though to be fair, Hawke can learn any spec without a teacher, so perhaps neither of these examples count.

FWIW, the games always gave me the impression that you don't need a demon to access blood magic. Having a demon as a teacher can yield stronger/faster results than trying to teach yourself, but there are also experienced blood mages who could take apprentices regardless of where they learned their lore from. Demons are the undisputed masters of the art, but they charge more for tuition.

[DreamerM]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
FWIW, the games always gave me the impression that you don't need a demon to access blood magic.

See I got the opposite impression. Yes there are books about it but I'm not sure how much books are a substitute for demonic instruction. And there are mages who instruct other mages on it, but it's probably like any other magic: even if you "have" it, you still need to learn to use it and an instructor can help with that.

Hey, why do you think it is that Merril actually debates the finner points of fade spirits and their nature...with ANDERS of all people? She'll talk about how all spirits are spirits, good and bad, "demon" is a meaningless word, and Anders will actually talk about how Demons are seperated into different sins, and actually recite Chantry Lore about the Creator's First Children and she'll wave it asside as "a story humans use to explain the world."

Moving past Anders using Chantry lore to explain anything, did someone forget that Anders has a fade spirit in his noggin? Did Justice keep none of his memories of the Fade? If you take Anders there, Justice sure sounds like he remembers. Couldn't Justice tell you about the history of the Fade? Fade spirits don't reproduce and don't die, so wouldn't he remember if there was a Creator?

Did Justice loose all memory AND consciousness when he joined with Anders?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Justice is probably more concerned with the plight of the mages than conducting guided tours of the Fade or giving history lessons. He struck me as very single-minded.

Plus...what makes you think Justice would know if the Maker existed? Because he used to dwell on the same plane? That's like expecting an accurate and complete history of Thedas from Oghren.

The only info we really get from him in in DAA. He does recall that the souls of dead mortals go beyond the Fade, but the Spirits have no answers as to where or what happens next.