292 réponses à ce sujet

[Urazz]

Areksu wrote...

First, about Connor in DA:O. According to the dialogue, you can save a person who willingly accepts a demon's offer, but not a person who was forcibly possessed (their souls get "mangled" in the process). And yes, DA2 contradicts this with Anders.
Secondly, about there appearance. Its roid rage man. Demon-possessed roid rage. I have no idea honestly.
Thirdly, the difference between an abomination and a spirit warrior/spirit healer is who is in the driver's seat. If the possessed person keeps his original personality then he/she is not an abomination. Anders is an abomination because he is in a constant fight to maintain control of himself, and his personality has been altered drastically by their merging.

Idon't they contradict it in DA2 with Anders actually.  If anything Anders was possessed alot longer than Conner was in DA:O even though both were willing.  My guess is that time can also cause a possession to be irreversable.

[DreamerM]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Justice is probably more concerned with the plight of the mages than conducting guided tours of the Fade or giving history lessons. He struck me as very single-minded.

Especially nowadays. Remember in Origins, when he wanted to right wrongs, protect the innocent and punish the evildoer? Yeah, forget all that. Now he's a personification of that drive that makes Tamil Tigers burn down villages and the IRA plant bombs in children's schools. Because SOMEONE thought that was a better idea, apparently. Oh and he only cares about mages now: other injustices, whether purpetrated against slaves or elves or anyone else ....  bah, he doesn't care.

Heck, he'll like you more if you SELL FENRIS BACK INTO SLAVERY. I mean, damn dude! I know you don't like Fenris but you're also supposed to be Mr. FREEDOM or DEATH, you jerk.

Mine is a very silent rage. Really.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Plus...what makes you think Justice would know if the Maker existed?
Because he used to dwell on the same plane? That's like expecting an
accurate and complete history of Thedas from Oghren.

Oghren is a mortal. He was born, he'll age, he'll die.

Spirits don't do any of that. As far as we know, the same spirits created by the Creator at the very beginning of time are the same ones still hanging around the Fade today. The Story is that the Creator made Spirits, but because they didn't want, the Creator didn't like them so he tried again, and out of jealousy some became Demons to pick on their younger siblings.

Since Justice has a thing about Demons, you'd think he'd remember how they came about, if he knew.

[IanPolaris]

You don't have to make a deal with a demon to learn bloodmagic. In DAA (which certainly counts as lore for this purpose), your Orlesian Warden can give Anders the Bloodmagic specialization assuming it's unlocked. Then in actual conversation when Anders bitterly complains that, "Eventually they would have branded me a maleficar, true or not and executed me", you can reply "But you ARE a maleficar."

Anders then says, "Sure now I am, and don't think the irony isn't lost on me."

The conversation makes it very clear that the Warden either directly or via Warden resources teaches Anders bloodmagic if you pick that speciality. Anders clearly has made no deal with no demon at this point.

Case closed. One counter example was all I needed.

-Polaris

[DreamerM]

IanPolaris wrote...
The conversation makes it very clear that the Warden either directly or via Warden resources teaches Anders bloodmagic if you pick that speciality. Anders clearly has made no deal with no demon at this point.

Case closed. One counter example was all I needed.

Case re-opened. We are not shown (or told) how the Warden taught him this magic. Who's to say the Warden didn't talk him through summoning a demon, making the deal, and then effectively using the skills that resulted? Since the whole thing took place offscreen anyway, can you prove this didn't happen?

[IanPolaris]

DreamerM wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The conversation makes it very clear that the Warden either directly or via Warden resources teaches Anders bloodmagic if you pick that speciality. Anders clearly has made no deal with no demon at this point.

Case closed. One counter example was all I needed.

Case re-opened. We are not shown (or told) how the Warden taught him this magic. Who's to say the Warden didn't talk him through summoning a demon, making the deal, and then effectively using the skills that resulted? Since the whole thing took place offscreen anyway, can you prove this didn't happen?

Case still closed.  ANDERS did not make a deal with a demon.  Even if the Warden did, it still means that bloodmagic can be taught from one mage to another demon-free.

-Polaris

Edit PS: Anders never deals with demons at all.  That is true both in DAA and DA2.  It is an essential part of his character and there is no indication that this is changed if you give him bloodmagic.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 07 juillet 2011 - 04:21 .

[TEWR]

Oghren is a mortal. He was born, he'll age, he'll die.

Spirits don't do any of that. As far as we know, the same spirits created by the Creator at the very beginning of time are the same ones still hanging around the Fade today. The Story is that the Creator made Spirits, but because they didn't want, the Creator didn't like them so he tried again, and out of jealousy some became Demons to pick on their younger siblings.

Since Justice has a thing about Demons, you'd think he'd remember how they came about, if he knew.

Justice actually has no clue if the Maker exists or not. In Amaranthine the statue outside of the chantry brings up a conversation with him about religion and the Maker

[Foolsfolly]

Case still closed.

Someone get Casey Anthony's lawyers up in this thread!

[DreamerM]

IanPolaris wrote...
Case still closed.  ANDERS did not make a deal with a demon.  Even if the Warden did, it still means that bloodmagic can be taught from one mage to another demon-free.

It all took place offscreen. Maybe the Warden made a bargain on Anders's behalf. Or maybe they took a vow of silence considering it. Maybe the Warden blood controlled Anders into doing it and the dude just woke up, knew blood magic and was told "oh it's cool, you just fell asleep reading this book" and never knew.

It was offscreen. Anything could have happened.

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit PS: Anders never deals with demons at all.  That is true both in DAA and DA2.  It is an essential part of his character and there is no indication that this is changed if you give him bloodmagic.

Which may be plot armor more then anything else. Every MAGEplayer sick of chugging lyrium potions will take the Blood Magic specialization when they get the chance, as well as give it to all their mage party members. Cannonically, Anders never becomes a blood mage, even if you make him one, because he never deals with demons even if he had to to learn the specialization, but that will never be mentioned because the Anders with stats and health-bars isn't quite the same Anders who is talking in the cutscenes.

So basically, in the great fight of Gameplay vs. Canon, gameplay wins.

Yes, Anders will say it's ironic he's a blood mage now, but he will never, in-game, mention how that happened, so it could have been anything, INCLUDING demon summoning. We can't prove it wasn't, since there's no reason he couldn't still hate demons after the fact, right?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Justice actually has no
clue if the Maker exists or not. In Amaranthine the statue outside of
the chantry brings up a conversation with him about religion and the
Maker

I'll have to find that convo somewhere. Because it points towards the Chantry making the whole thing about "creator's Children" up. Who's surprised?

And it still doesn't explain why Anders was spouting Chantry lore like it was true. Justice in his head should have raised some doubts about that.

[IanPolaris]

DreamerM wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Case still closed.  ANDERS did not make a deal with a demon.  Even if the Warden did, it still means that bloodmagic can be taught from one mage to another demon-free.

It all took place offscreen. Maybe the Warden made a bargain on Anders's behalf. Or maybe they took a vow of silence considering it. Maybe the Warden blood controlled Anders into doing it and the dude just woke up, knew blood magic and was told "oh it's cool, you just fell asleep reading this book" and never knew.

It was offscreen. Anything could have happened.

That's simply not so.  Anders consistantly loaths demons. It's the one thing that's actually consistant about him from DAA to DA2.  If the Warden did make a deal on Anders behalf, then it proves my contention.  You don't have to make a deal with a demon (yourself) to get bloodmagic.  All I have to show is one canonical bloodmage (and Anders can be a canonical bloodmage per conversation choices which MAKES IT LORE) without the use of a demon and I prove my case.  I have done this.

These is enough other indication with Jowan and others so this shouldn't be a suprise.

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit PS: Anders never deals with demons at all.  That is true both in DAA and DA2.  It is an essential part of his character and there is no indication that this is changed if you give him bloodmagic.

Which may be plot armor more then anything else. Every MAGEplayer sick of chugging lyrium potions will take the Blood Magic specialization when they get the chance, as well as give it to all their mage party members. Cannonically, Anders never becomes a blood mage, even if you make him one, because he never deals with demons even if he had to to learn the specialization, but that will never be mentioned because the Anders with stats and health-bars isn't quite the same Anders who is talking in the cutscenes.

So basically, in the great fight of Gameplay vs. Canon, gameplay wins.

Yes, Anders will say it's ironic he's a blood mage now, but he will never, in-game, mention how that happened, so it could have been anything, INCLUDING demon summoning. We can't prove it wasn't, since there's no reason he couldn't still hate demons after the fact, right?

As Sten or the Arishok would say:  NO.

If Anders had to be ordered to make a deal with a demon, he certainly would have said so.  Esp DAA Anders.  There is NO indication that this is required and I have shown one concrete canonical case where it isn't so, and a LOT of evidence that says that this is bogus.


-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 07 juillet 2011 - 09:18 .

[DreamerM]

Agree to disagree. I maintain that one highly optional line of dialogue does not a canonical blood mage make, especially since it's never mentioned again and by the time DA2 rolls around the only thing that bothers Anders almost as much as Templars is blood mages (and the blood magic skills are gone from his skill-set.)

For the sake of argument, I'm curious about your opinion of the risk involved to a mage who has learned blood magic from some source other then a demon in that case. Is blood magic just another school to be learned in that case, with no more danger of possession then any other school? In your opinion?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

DreamerM wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Justice is probably more concerned with the plight of the mages than conducting guided tours of the Fade or giving history lessons. He struck me as very single-minded.

Especially nowadays. Remember in Origins, when he wanted to right wrongs, protect the innocent and punish the evildoer? Yeah, forget all that. Now he's a personification of that drive that makes Tamil Tigers burn down villages and the IRA plant bombs in children's schools. Because SOMEONE thought that was a better idea, apparently. Oh and he only cares about mages now: other injustices, whether purpetrated against slaves or elves or anyone else ....  bah, he doesn't care.

Heck, he'll like you more if you SELL FENRIS BACK INTO SLAVERY. I mean, damn dude! I know you don't like Fenris but you're also supposed to be Mr. FREEDOM or DEATH, you jerk.

QFT

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Oghren is a mortal. He was born, he'll age, he'll die.

Spirits don't do any of that. As far as we know, the same spirits created by the Creator at the very beginning of time are the same ones still hanging around the Fade today. The Story is that the Creator made Spirits, but because they didn't want, the Creator didn't like them so he tried again, and out of jealousy some became Demons to pick on their younger siblings.

Since Justice has a thing about Demons, you'd think he'd remember how they came about, if he knew.

'As far as we know' says it all, really. I understand what you're saying. But on that thread, mages come into contact with Fade denizens all the time...you'd think someone would have popped the relgion questions by now.

Or maybe when Golden City turned Black and the Maker withdrew, there was an effect on His First Children? Who knows :/

Edit:

@Ian: Just because something is never mentioned ingame doesn't mean it never happened. Try to keep an open mind.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 07 juillet 2011 - 10:09 .

[Tirfan]

DreamerM: Just because certain things about Anders were canonized (he refuses to use blood magic (even if he learned it from the Warden), survived, actually became a warden etc.) doesn't reduce the validity of the argument IanPolaris makes about there being a canon example of a mage teaching blood magic to another mage without dealing with a demon, if my mage-warden would teach blood magic to Anders and the DA2 Anders doesn't use blood magic, it is just a retcon.

Modifié par Tirfan, 07 juillet 2011 - 10:43 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Who says the DA2 Anders doesn't know how to do blood magic? Maybe he just refuses to use it.

Same as he refuses to change clothes for most of the game.

Seriously though, it's not like you can't stop using a certain kind of magic by choice. And since Justice/Vengeance is in him now, maybe that new spec of his comprises as much demonic art as it does spirit healing (which he also no longer has).

[Tirfan]

^ Yeah, just noticed that I had bit of brain-fart when writing that and came back to edit it.

[IanPolaris]

DreamerM wrote...
For the sake of argument, I'm curious about your opinion of the risk involved to a mage who has learned blood magic from some source other then a demon in that case. Is blood magic just another school to be learned in that case, with no more danger of possession then any other school? In your opinion?

The health of the veil seems tied to the amount of life and death in an area and since Bloodmagic is fueled by life-energy, it would seem that the risk of possession probably is higher because:

1.  Demons find you a more valuable target.
2.  The veil might be thinner while using bloodmagic making you easier to get at.

Just my guess.  However, other than that, I'd say, yes, bloodmagic is a school like any other and can be used for weal or woe like any other.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
For the sake of argument, I'm curious about your opinion of the risk involved to a mage who has learned blood magic from some source other then a demon in that case. Is blood magic just another school to be learned in that case, with no more danger of possession then any other school? In your opinion?

The health of the veil seems tied to the amount of life and death in an area and since Bloodmagic is fueled by life-energy, it would seem that the risk of possession probably is higher because:

1.  Demons find you a more valuable target.
2.  The veil might be thinner while using bloodmagic making you easier to get at.

Just my guess.  However, other than that, I'd say, yes, bloodmagic is a school like any other and can be used for weal or woe like any other.

-Polaris

I think if people go the Merrill and Jowan route and only use their own blood for blood magic then it can be safely used.


What I want to know is how Tevinter is still standing when they keep slaves to use as blood magic fodder. They sacrifice many slaves (Feynriel even says his master did that to a slave) just for magic and magical duels. One would think demons would run rampant over there.

So they must've found some way to keep the Veil strong.

[DreamerM]

Tirfan wrote...

DreamerM: Just because certain things about Anders were canonized (he refuses to use blood magic (even if he learned it from the Warden), survived, actually became a warden etc.) doesn't reduce the validity of the argument IanPolaris makes about there being a canon example of a mage teaching blood magic to another mage without dealing with a demon,

I know, but I'm unconvinced that they didn't deal with a demon to learn the blood magic. Ian says they can't have because of Anders's canonical attitudes towards both demons and blood magic, and he cannot believe that nobody would say anything about it, but I think that may be giving the writers too much credit. If DA2 taught us anything, it's that no scene is too important to take place offscreen.

Remember Bioware will let you accept the demon's offer in Origins to unlock the blood magic specialization, then re-load an old save and turn down the offer, but keep the magic, so you can be a blood mage without being a blood mage. Nobody in your party will ever mention THAT either.

I don't buy the thing about the thin veil caused by using blood magic either. That sounds a bit too random, and considering that every other place in Thedas has a "thin veil" I can't see how that might substitute for having an actual demon fueling your powers.

[DreamerM]

IanPolaris wrote...
The health of the veil seems tied to the amount of life and death in an area and since Bloodmagic is fueled by life-energy, it would seem that the risk of possession probably is higher because:

1.  Demons find you a more valuable target.

I can understand a blood mage being a more vulnerable target, since according to that Pride Demon in the Fade who's name I forget, Merril's past dealings with demons mean they know she's likely then another mage to be receptive to their offers. I can't understand how blood magic might make you more "valuable" then another mage.

well, they do like power, and blood mages are supposed to be more powerful, so maybe there's that. I can't imagine the difference is that significant though.

IanPolaris wrote...
2.  The veil might be thinner while using bloodmagic

I think that's a guess. The Veil is thin enough everywhere anyway. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think if people go the Merrill and Jowan route and only use their own blood for blood magic then it can be safely used.

Why do you think that? Merril was definitely not "safe" in any sense of the word. She says she wouldn't sacrifice the unwilling, but this implies that she WOULD perhaps sacrifice the willing, if given a good enough reason to. And given the high instances of insanity amoung blood mages, it sure looks like it's a really slippery slope. Perhaps the demons poison your mind a little with each blood magic spell you use, softening you up for the final invasion.

Jowan never showed signs of possession, or even insanity, but he was also a very well-trained and capable mage in his own right (not as good as Amell/Surana, but still good!) who perhaps hadn't been a practicing blood mage for very long. If you play as him in the fade, his blood-magic abilities are not very well-developed. If I were to guess, I'd say he's read about blood magic more then he's actually practiced it.

Jowan will also say he "has" blood magic, not that he "knows" blood magic, implying that it's not something you can just learn...

Modifié par DreamerM, 07 juillet 2011 - 10:09 .