292 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

I disagree that Vengeance has more in common with rage than justice. I think it's the sweet spot right between the two. However, when it goes too far, it may require the outside intervention of a being of justice and protection to temper its destructive forces.

In strictly my opinion, Vengeance is more of an emotional response to a wrong. Justice is a concept and is...well..just. Rage is an emotional response. That's where my opinion springs from. There's no canon saying Justice is now a demon, it's just my opinion.

Vengeance is something that even Batman can get behind.

Only until he stops himself and slaps the cuffs on the person. He's human. We get emotional.

[Foolsfolly]

In so doing they 'sometimes go mad'. So the dalish seem to hold that the fade creatures have multiple states of being.

On one hand they can be in perfect control of their host (uldred was like this; a pride demon) and in others they go insane perhaps the will of the host is in a struggle with the will of the fade creature

So the different types of abominations are determined by how mad they go from the merging with a mortal? I can dig that.

for Darkspawn, the Chantry's version claims that the Magisters' hubris caused the Darkspawn, but the Dwarves tell a much different story:

The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage.

At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong.

--As told by Shaper Czibor

Oh come on, who honestly believes the Chantry's version? Of bleeding course they came from down below look where they live. Look who's suffered the most by the darkspawn!

I think they're from the Stone. Whatever that means.

[Maria Caliban]

Spirit + Human = Abomination

According to the Chantry. The majority of mages believe the Chantry and the Chantry influences what can and can't be taught at the circles.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Sometimes it appears that abominations are just mindless hulking brutes with large tumors covering their bodies. They sometimes talk and show a form of thinking, other times they're slight animals destroying everything they come across.

Correct. Different abominations have different levels of intelligence, power, and control over their state.

Think about it this way: Does a 2-year-old and a 30-year-old act in the same way? There's a huge difference between a rage or hunger spirit entering the mortal world for the first time, and a desire spirit that has over a century's experience in the bodies of various people.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Sometimes the Abomination isn't an Abomination, like Uldred, instead they turn into a Demon.

Sometimes the abomination is more of a possession, like Wynne, Connor, and Anders. This form of Abomination seems to 'merge' with the personality of the person (except for Wynne who seems the same without any difference with Faith).

Then there's the Duchess an Abomination who according to Justice has now become a demon, is that the explaination for Uldred? The Duchess had decades in the Fade using and feeding off of spirits/souls to become that. How did Uldred become a demon so quickly?

Powerful demon + Powerful mage = Abomination that can turn into a 'demon.'

But I don't believe what Justice said was right. According to Justice, he doesn't really understand what a demon is other than he doesn't like it. Then there's his behavior in DA 2.

And then there's the special case of Connor's possession, which is cured by killing the Desire Demon that possessed him. This can't be too special of a case since Irving, Jowen, and Morrigan all seem to know that you can go into the Fade and kill a demon and the possessed mage will revert to normal

Morrigan is a blood mage raised by Flemith and Irving is the first Enchanter. I don't think Jowen should have known that, but I assume he was given special knowledge because the PC can enter the castle without Morrigan.

According to the writers, it's little-known and no one has managed to successfully undo a possession that anyone knows of.

Even more interesting is the fact that possessed mages like Anders and Connor have moments without the demon/spirit controlling them.

According to lore, the Fade and Mortal realm are actually one. The Veil is actually a mode of perception.
I'd suggest you think of the Fade as the emotional/conceptual realm. The chair you're sitting on is a physical object, but you also have the idea of a chair, and if you walk into the other room you have the memory of a chair. And while you can't see the chair I'm sitting on right now and have never seen it, you have the concept of 'chair' and can probably furnish a mental image.

Your concept of a chair exists along with the physical object, even if the physical object never interacts with that concept. Now imagine that your concept of a chair had a sense of identity. We could call that a 'chair spirit.' Imagine if that chair spirit wanted to enter the real world and see what was up with all those imaginary butts that's been sitting on it?

You know what? I have no idea where this is going. What was the question?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...
You know what? I have no idea where this is going. What was the question?

It would eventually lead to the Allegory of the Cave.

[TEWR]

Correct. Different abominations have different levels of intelligence, power, and control over their state.

Think about it this way: Does a 2-year-old and a 30-year-old act in the same way? There's a huge difference between a rage or hunger spirit entering the mortal world for the first time, and a desire spirit that has over a century's experience in the bodies of various people.

The problem is that we encountered various abominations of different sorts in the Ferelden Circle (Rage, Pride, Hunger, Desire, Sloth) and most of them just decided to attack us with their fists. The only ones who didn't were Uldred and the Sloth Demon.

Were the rest just Rage Abominations I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But they all had different names, different demons possessing them. An Abomination should know that the body of a Mage can be useful. Torpor knew, and he had never been to the mortal realm before.

Morrigan is a blood mage raised by Flemith and Irving is the first Enchanter. I don't think Jowen should have known that, but I assume he was given special knowledge because the PC can enter the castle without Morrigan.

According to the writers, it's little-known and no one has managed to successfully undo a possession that anyone knows of

Morrigan isn't a blood mage. she can be made into one, but she isn't actually a maleficar. Just a free mage.

As for Jowan, I guess it just goes to show that he isn't the weak mage everyone thinks he is. He's smarter than he looks.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Morrigan isn't a blood mage. she can be made into one, but she isn't actually a maleficar. Just a free mage.

Technically, she is. The DR is blood magic.

And a potentially very dangerous and certainly very controversial application of it

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Morrigan isn't a blood mage. she can be made into one, but she isn't actually a maleficar. Just a free mage.

Technically, she is. The DR is blood magic.

And a potentially very dangerous and certainly very controversial application of it

Hmm.... true.


Does that make her a blood mage from that instance onward?


Also, I don't see anything wrong with the ritual.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juin 2011 - 04:51 .

[John Epler]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Correct. Different abominations have different levels of intelligence, power, and control over their state.

Think about it this way: Does a 2-year-old and a 30-year-old act in the same way? There's a huge difference between a rage or hunger spirit entering the mortal world for the first time, and a desire spirit that has over a century's experience in the bodies of various people.

The problem is that we encountered various abominations of different sorts in the Ferelden Circle (Rage, Pride, Hunger, Desire, Sloth) and most of them just decided to attack us with their fists. The only ones who didn't were Uldred and the Sloth Demon.

Were the rest just Rage Abominations I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But they all had different names, different demons possessing them. An Abomination should know that the body of a Mage can be useful. Torpor knew, and he had never been to the mortal realm before.

I'm not a writer (I feel I need to preface any post where I address the lore with this) but I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Whatever aspect a demon is (Sloth, Rage, Desire, Hunger, Pride) does not dictate how mindless/powerful they are when they push through the Veil and take the form of an abomination, but rather how experienced they are when they attempt the possession. A mage like Uldred was powerful, and he had a large number of bargaining chips - so he was able to attract a far wiser and more powerful spirit who had a much stronger will (and as such, was far more than a simple abomination on the other side of the Veil).

The average mage, however, looks at blood magic and demonic bargains as a route to quick and easy power. But unlike Uldred, they don't have nearly as much to bargain with, so the demons they tend to attract are less powerful. A demon like the Pride Demon in DA:O is not going to be making bargains with a low-level mage who has little ability to affect the day-to-day business of the Circle. But Uldred? Well, he had power and influence, and the Pride Demon knew this.

The more powerful the host, the more powerful the demon they are able to attract, and thus the more powerful/rational the demon remains when they cross the Veil into our own world.

At least, that's my interpretation of the lore. Again, I'm not a writer, so don't take anything I say as fact. Merely slightly informed speculation.

EDIT: Whoops. Meant Sloth, not Pride. Heat and beer are wreaking havoc on my brain.

EDIT: And I actually meant 'Meant Pride, not Sloth'.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 29 juin 2011 - 05:06 .

[Foolsfolly]

Morrigan is a blood mage raised by Flemith

Morrigan isn't strictly a Blood Mage. The Dark Ritual was taught to her so she could do the Old God Baby deal but if that alone makes her a blood mage then the Wardens are blood mages too for using blood to give each other powers to sense darkspawn and the like.

She doesn't ever use her blood or another's blood to fuel her magic...unless, of course, you spec her as a Blood Mage and why wouldn't anyone? I made Wynne a Blood Mage for the Maker's sake.

According to the writers, it's little-known and no one has managed to successfully undo a possession that anyone knows of.

Wow, that's information that could have been stated in the game. As is that's now Word of God. I'll accept it but that doesn't offically make it canon until it's in a game, book, or the codices.

According to lore, the Fade and Mortal realm are actually one. The Veil is actually a mode of perception.

According to one codex entry, yes. But the fact that it's so difficult to enter the Fade or for something to come out of the Fade there IS a barrier. And thus something to cross over from one realm to another.

I mean, where's Justice when Anders is in control? Where's Anders when Justice is in control? Is it so impossible that one of them went to the Dream realm?

...well, except I'm pretty sure Justice is removed from the Fade...until you bring him to the Fade. Why he didn't just get off the Anders bus then is beyond me.

[Foolsfolly]

The more powerful the host, the more powerful the demon they are able to attract, and thus the more powerful/rational the demon remains when they cross the Veil into our own world.

At least, that's my interpretation of the lore. Again, I'm not a writer, so don't take anything I say as fact. Merely slightly informed speculation.

Awesome and rational speculation. Thanks a lot, dude!

[TEWR]

She doesn't ever use her blood or another's blood to fuel her magic...unless, of course, you spec her as a Blood Mage and why wouldn't anyone? I made Wynne a Blood Mage for the Maker's sake.

Ah hypocrisy, she tastes so sweet. Like honey.

I love doing that too.

Why he didn't just get off the Anders bus then is beyond me

He had a mission. Can't fault him for wanting to see it through.

[TEWR]

JohnEpler wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Correct. Different abominations have different levels of intelligence, power, and control over their state.

Think about it this way: Does a 2-year-old and a 30-year-old act in the same way? There's a huge difference between a rage or hunger spirit entering the mortal world for the first time, and a desire spirit that has over a century's experience in the bodies of various people.

The problem is that we encountered various abominations of different sorts in the Ferelden Circle (Rage, Pride, Hunger, Desire, Sloth) and most of them just decided to attack us with their fists. The only ones who didn't were Uldred and the Sloth Demon.

Were the rest just Rage Abominations I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But they all had different names, different demons possessing them. An Abomination should know that the body of a Mage can be useful. Torpor knew, and he had never been to the mortal realm before.

I'm not a writer (I feel I need to preface any post where I address the lore with this) but I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Whatever aspect a demon is (Sloth, Rage, Desire, Hunger, Pride) does not dictate how mindless/powerful they are when they push through the Veil and take the form of an abomination, but rather how experienced they are when they attempt the possession. A mage like Uldred was powerful, and he had a large number of bargaining chips - so he was able to attract a far wiser and more powerful spirit who had a much stronger will (and as such, was far more than a simple abomination on the other side of the Veil).

The average mage, however, looks at blood magic and demonic bargains as a route to quick and easy power. But unlike Uldred, they don't have nearly as much to bargain with, so the demons they tend to attract are less powerful. A demon like the Sloth Demon in DA:O is not going to be making bargains with a low-level mage who has little ability to affect the day-to-day business of the Circle. But Uldred? Well, he had power and influence, and the Sloth Demon knew this.

The more powerful the host, the more powerful the demon they are able to attract, and thus the more powerful/rational the demon remains when they cross the Veil into our own world.

At least, that's my interpretation of the lore. Again, I'm not a writer, so don't take anything I say as fact. Merely slightly informed speculation.

What about Connor? He was a very inexperienced mage (and thus, at the time weak) but he was able to attract a Desire Demon that caused a lot of damage.

[John Epler]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Correct. Different abominations have different levels of intelligence, power, and control over their state.

Think about it this way: Does a 2-year-old and a 30-year-old act in the same way? There's a huge difference between a rage or hunger spirit entering the mortal world for the first time, and a desire spirit that has over a century's experience in the bodies of various people.

The problem is that we encountered various abominations of different sorts in the Ferelden Circle (Rage, Pride, Hunger, Desire, Sloth) and most of them just decided to attack us with their fists. The only ones who didn't were Uldred and the Sloth Demon.

Were the rest just Rage Abominations I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But they all had different names, different demons possessing them. An Abomination should know that the body of a Mage can be useful. Torpor knew, and he had never been to the mortal realm before.

I'm not a writer (I feel I need to preface any post where I address the lore with this) but I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Whatever aspect a demon is (Sloth, Rage, Desire, Hunger, Pride) does not dictate how mindless/powerful they are when they push through the Veil and take the form of an abomination, but rather how experienced they are when they attempt the possession. A mage like Uldred was powerful, and he had a large number of bargaining chips - so he was able to attract a far wiser and more powerful spirit who had a much stronger will (and as such, was far more than a simple abomination on the other side of the Veil).

The average mage, however, looks at blood magic and demonic bargains as a route to quick and easy power. But unlike Uldred, they don't have nearly as much to bargain with, so the demons they tend to attract are less powerful. A demon like the Sloth Demon in DA:O is not going to be making bargains with a low-level mage who has little ability to affect the day-to-day business of the Circle. But Uldred? Well, he had power and influence, and the Sloth Demon knew this.

The more powerful the host, the more powerful the demon they are able to attract, and thus the more powerful/rational the demon remains when they cross the Veil into our own world.

At least, that's my interpretation of the lore. Again, I'm not a writer, so don't take anything I say as fact. Merely slightly informed speculation.

What about Connor? He was a very inexperienced mage (and thus, at the time weak) but he was able to attract a Desire Demon that caused a lot of damage.

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence.

[Foolsfolly]

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Arl Abomination would have been a nice little feather in any demon's hat. It's quite the stylish hat in the Fade, ya know.

I like this.

So the more powerful and the more to offer a person has the stronger a demon that person will attract. Which means a greater chance of not going insane upon merging and turning into an Abomination.

This is why the vast majority of Abominations are weak and next to mindless, not every mage is made equal.

I dig this. I dig this a lot.

And now I want an Abomination spec in DA3.

[TEWR]

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence

Interesting.... so being the son of an Arl was what attracted the demon. Most awesome. Most awesome indeed.



Related: I would like to see some Abominations not be so mindless. All we ever face are mindless Abominations. And even though I now understand why (and I'm very grateful for the information Mr. Epler), it would be nice to face some Abominations that aren't so mindless.

Also, why do they pop out of the ground in DA2?

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence

Interesting.... so being the son of an Arl was what attracted the demon. Most awesome. Most awesome indeed.



Related: I would like to see some Abominations not be so mindless. All we ever face are mindless Abominations. And even though I now understand why (and I'm very grateful for the information Mr. Epler), it would be nice to face some Abominations that aren't so mindless.

Also, why do they pop out of the ground in DA2?

I'd like to see more intelligent Abominations too. But we did have a few intelligent Abominations over the course of the series. Hell, Flemeth's legend says she's one and we see how powerful she is. (If she's an Abomination, a lot of people really believe she's an Old God and I tend to agree.)

As for ground pop I'm positive it's just the waving mechanic doing that. They appear very similar to demons do when they're summoned...it's just...Abominations shouldn't be summoned so it's a bit of fail there.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence

Interesting.... so being the son of an Arl was what attracted the demon. Most awesome. Most awesome indeed.



Related: I would like to see some Abominations not be so mindless. All we ever face are mindless Abominations. And even though I now understand why (and I'm very grateful for the information Mr. Epler), it would be nice to face some Abominations that aren't so mindless.

Also, why do they pop out of the ground in DA2?

I'd like to see more intelligent Abominations too. But we did have a few intelligent Abominations over the course of the series. Hell, Flemeth's legend says she's one and we see how powerful she is. (If she's an Abomination, a lot of people really believe she's an Old God and I tend to agree.)

As for ground pop I'm positive it's just the waving mechanic doing that. They appear very similar to demons do when they're summoned...it's just...Abominations shouldn't be summoned so it's a bit of fail there.

Yea I too believe Flemeth is the Dumat OGB, who is in turn Andraste.


And Abominations definitely shouldn't be summonable. It's just one of those  moments.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'd also like lesser abominations that are not downgraded when compared to mages. As in, they can actually use magic, even uncontrollably.

[John Epler]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence

Interesting.... so being the son of an Arl was what attracted the demon. Most awesome. Most awesome indeed.



Related: I would like to see some Abominations not be so mindless. All we ever face are mindless Abominations. And even though I now understand why (and I'm very grateful for the information Mr. Epler), it would be nice to face some Abominations that aren't so mindless.

Also, why do they pop out of the ground in DA2?

I'd like to see more intelligent Abominations too. But we did have a few intelligent Abominations over the course of the series. Hell, Flemeth's legend says she's one and we see how powerful she is. (If she's an Abomination, a lot of people really believe she's an Old God and I tend to agree.)

As for ground pop I'm positive it's just the waving mechanic doing that. They appear very similar to demons do when they're summoned...it's just...Abominations shouldn't be summoned so it's a bit of fail there.

I think that the potential is certainly there for this sort of thing, given that the Circles are no longer under the sort of strict control that they once were. Coupled with the fact that the leader of the Kirkwall revolt used blood magic (his eventual defeat no doubt being glossed over by those who've been itching for a chance to get their Tevinter-style blood rites on) and you have a situation where powerful mages are more likely to end up in situations where they see deals with demons as being a preferable course of action.

As for abominations appearing out of the ground, unfortunately, story and gameplay occasionally don't intersect as well as they should, and this would be one of those instances. It was noted, however, and the general consensus is (I believe) that abominations need to be handled like, well, abominations. Even the weak ones should be a believable threat. Able to destroy entire towns? Well, you can chalk some of that up to Chantry hyperbole, but they aren't something to be regarded lightly.

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd also like lesser abominations that are not downgraded when compared to mages. As in, they can actually use magic, even uncontrollably.

I think it was called Elemental Chaos but Awakening had a sustainable where it caused elemental damage around the mage. It'd be cool if some Abominations had this aura of choatic swirling magic as a sustainable.


It should be an Elite mook Abomination. And perhaps they have a small set of unique 'unstable' spells.

I suddenly want to do a mod...but I'm a 360 player....

[John Epler]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd also like lesser abominations that are not downgraded when compared to mages. As in, they can actually use magic, even uncontrollably.

I think the idea is that newly created abominations are still coming to grips with their host's body and powers. That's not to say that (as you mention) they couldn't use magic in an uncontrolled fashion, though.

[TEWR]

I think that the potential is certainly there for this sort of thing, given that the Circles are no longer under the sort of strict control that they once were. Coupled with the fact that the leader of the Kirkwall revolt used blood magic (his eventual defeat no doubt being glossed over by those who've been itching for a chance to get their Tevinter-style blood rites on) and you have a situation where powerful mages are more likely to end up in situations where they see deals with demons as being a preferable course of action.

A lot of pro-mage people (myself included) really didn't like that regarding Orsino. It made us cry and yell (and not the good way tears should be shed and anger should be heard ). I immediately respected him and wanted to see more of him, as he was a badass in my opinion.

We really want a retcon for Orsino in the future for our pro-mage playthroughs (be it in DA3 or an expansion). Can we haz one? Pweez?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juin 2011 - 05:45 .

[Foolsfolly]

Mr. Epler, you are a scholar and a gentleman. Thanks a lot for coming in here and talking. I understand Abominations more now. It just seemed so random before, certain cases behaving differently than the majority of Abominations and all. Thank you.

The next time I beat the game I shall salute your name in the credits. And then I shall point out the name to anyone who happens to be in the house and say, "That man is a scholar and a gentleman."

[John Epler]

Hah! I don't think I've done anything special - I'm still speculating here. The difference, of course, is that part of my job is to know everything about the Dragon Age franchise, and I am immersed in Dragon Age for 10-14 hours a day. So it's on my mind. A lot

But thank you. I enjoy participating in discussions wherever I can - sometimes, talking to other people about lore points can help get the creative juices flowing, which in turn allows me to show up at a writer's desk the next day with a notepad and the words 'hey, here's a thought..' Especially when I'm talking to non-employees, as sometimes it's easy to say 'oh, it's explained in page 331 of the lore bible, paragraph 5'. Which is all well and good for us, but if we aren't conveying page 331, paragraph 5, then we need to know that.

[Foolsfolly]

It meant a lot. It's one thing to have a bunch of fans on the outside talking about opinion and interpretations and another to get an opinion from someone with longer history with the franchise and its lore.

In this case I hadn't considered the status, power, and skill of the mage played into the power (and sanity) of the Abomination. The social status thing is fantastic and I'm positive I wouldn't have thought of that myself.