292 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

JohnEpler wrote...

I think that the potential is certainly there for this sort of thing, given that the Circles are no longer under the sort of strict control that they once were. Coupled with the fact that the leader of the Kirkwall revolt used blood magic (his eventual defeat no doubt being glossed over by those who've been itching for a chance to get their Tevinter-style blood rites on) and you have a situation where powerful mages are more likely to end up in situations where they see deals with demons as being a preferable course of action.

Then what is with the "common knowledge" that deals with demons (or any spirit, really) will always, eventually, go badly for the human involved? Or am I mistaken about the conventional wisdom of Thedas?

I will say, of all the Abominations you meet in game, none of them meet very nice ends. Except maybe Wynne, but I tend to think of her as a species unto herself (the Wynners).

I know Anders can survive the climax of DA2, but his union with Justice has made him so unhappy that just putting him out of his misery isn't the worst thing you could possibly do for him. So as a whole, whether possessed willingly or by force, the Abomination Story tends to only end one way: badly.

What I'm more curious about are posessions like Conners, where a demon possesses a body from a distance, while still in the Fade, vs. an Abomination like Anders, who as fused with a spirit who was physically on the mortal plain already. And then Wynne, who presumably was also possessed but whether Faith had fused with her soul like Justice fused with Anders or whether Faith was possessing her from afar, I couldn't tell you.

There are so many questions that Anders could have answered.... like, what happens if you try and perform the Rite of Tranquility on an Abomination? Why did being around him when Justice manifested cause Karl's Tranquility to slip away for a few moments? Is that a constant effect he has on the Tranquil, or will that only happen when he manifests Justice? Why? And what did being possessed really MEAN for him, beyond that it turned him into a kind of miserable person? As opposed to Wynne, who didn't seem changed by her posession at all?

So many questions that won't ever be answered now.... sniff.

Modifié par DreamerM, 29 juin 2011 - 06:06 .

[John Epler]

I think the common wisdom is, in fact, that a deal with a demon will go badly.. but every mage who makes that deal thinks 'well, that applies to all those -other- mages, but I'm special! Nothing bad's going to happen to me!'

It's arrogance. It's certainly not unique to Thedas - lots of people in the real world do incredibly risky and foolish things because they believe that they're special and that things will work out for them, even though the general wisdom is 'this is a bad idea and you should not do it'.

[megski]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


for Darkspawn, the Chantry's version claims that the Magisters' hubris caused the Darkspawn, but the Dwarves tell a much different story:

The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage.

At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong.

--As told by Shaper Czibor.[/i]


Take note of the bolded portion, where they say "creatures in our own likeness". What Darkspawn look like dwarves? Genlocks.

Add into that the Primeval Thaig and Red Lyrium, and well....

     
I haven't seen the dwarf story for the darkspawn.  I usually favor the dwarf stories anyway, very cool, thanks for showing me!  I can see that happening too with the primeval thaigs.  I was reading the other night about them on the dragon age wikki.  Dragon 2 also allowed us to see the strange things that could come out of those thaigs.  The dwarves are capable of crafting extraordinary things, this could be true also for things magic related.  It makes sense to me that when dwarves began to lose their ability to use magic, some could have just accepted it and some could have pushed themselves to possibly becoming the darkspawn.  Especially if something they created went wrong.  Good theory!

[Foolsfolly]

I will say, of all the Abominations you meet in game, none of them meet very nice ends. Except maybe Wynne, but I tend to think of her as a species unto herself (the Wynners).

Eww. Wynners? Seriously, guy?

Although, you have to wonder, what the Spirit of Faith ask for when Wynne was brought back? Did it ask for anything?

Book might explain more.

So many questions that won't ever be answered now.... sniff.

Oh, that's just hyperbole, sir. There'll be a ton of Abominations in DA3. The Mages are fighting a war, leaders will rise, deals with demons will be made (I mean it's not like the mages are unified in any way there will be apostates who just want to not be run through by Templars.).

There's plenty of opportunities down the road to further explore Abominations. Even if the issue's hardly brought up with either Abomination companions in the series thus far.

It's certainly not unique to Thedas - lots of people in the real world do incredibly risky and foolish things because they believe that they're special and that things will work out for them, even though the general wisdom is 'this is a bad idea and you should not do it'.

Pfft! It's all about maintaining! I'm good to drive!

[DreamerM]

JohnEpler wrote...

I think the common wisdom is, in fact, that a deal with a demon will go badly.. but every mage who makes that deal thinks 'well, that applies to all those -other- mages, but I'm special! Nothing bad's going to happen to me!'

Nothing's as common as the belief that you are unique.

I wonder how much experience a mage really gets with how badly Possessions can go wrong before they are expected to be ready to handle it. And I wonder....I know according to the lore, Intelligent Abominations are impossible and shouldn't exist at all, but we've met at least three in two games.

Just given these numbers, they can't be as unheard of as they seem to be, right?

And if at least ONE Spirit-Deal (Wynne) actually did result in her cheating death and returning to reality a lot more powerful then before, then isn't she kind of the holy Grail that mages hope for when they strike deals with Demons: all the pluses with no side-effects besides dying eventually, which everybody does everyday anyway?

And yes, maybe it will be explained more in the book. But in the meantime, nothing in DA:O suggested that she was anything less then the same compassionate, devout, motherly, tough-as-nails woman she was to begin with.

Compare that to Anders, who's personality change was dramatic, to say the least. He went from a relaxed, easy-going if angry guy to a mage Timothy McVeigh. And Unlike Wynne, exactly what powers Anders gained from his union (besides the ability to glow when he was mad) were never explained. We don't know if Justice brought him back from death like Wynne's spirit did. Faith wanted nothing more then to protect Wynne, and so just sat like a nice little spirit and replenished her Mana when she needed it, wheras Justice basically took over Ander's life, mind, and personality.

And Vengence. Vengence just wants to kill everything, right? Not just Templars, but EVERYTHING. How did that happen? Where did that come from? Anders? Justice? A split personality with a split personality? My brain is melting.

[Foolsfolly]

I wonder how much experience a mage really gets with how badly Possessions can go wrong before they are expected to be ready to handle it.

None at all from the looks of it. Those who fail the Harrowing don't come back down. And the outside world is full of stories told along with the concept that possessions are scary. I'm sure the regular teenaged angst mixed with a complete lack of firsthand knowledge of anything in the world and...

...well I expect there's a lot of mages like that one from Witch Hunt and the guy who lied about being a Blood Mage to impress women.

Apostates can't be that much more experienced entirely because if they're too overt with their powers they're taken in/down by the Templars.

I imagine the Tevinter magisters and the Dalish mages are the most knowledgeable. Your average Circle mage is just told things by their jailers and teachers there's no context.

...it's going to be a mess in DA3. High stakes, high emotions, and a bunch of scared untrained boys and girls going off to war unprepared for the dangers they're up against.

[TEWR]

which is where the various mages who have passed their Harrowing come in. They can help instruct the mages on what to actually do, no Chantry rules. The rules regarding telling mages about the Harrowing and demons no longer apply.

They're going to need to teach them a ****load.

And also... Orsino could've helped. He could've been a decent Mage General had he not gone all Harvestino.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juin 2011 - 06:48 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

The conversation sort of moved away from this, but earlier in this thread there was some discussion on the nature of spirits / demons, and I'd like to chime in on that, since a certain gentlemanly scholar cleared up the abomination so well.

In DA][, Merrill says that there is no fundamental difference between demons and spirits, and I think this is true. Several codex entries, and discussions with Justice in DA:A, say that the spirit realm is a place where everyone can bend reality to their will, but nobody really knows what to do with that power. The Chantry teaches that spirits are the Makers first children, and were given his powers of creation, but did nothing with these powers, for they lacked a 'divine spark'. Once the Maker made the physical world, the spirits began imitating our world. You can think of spirits as huge nerds, obsessed with various facets of this other world. Pride demons just think hubris and arrogance are awesome, like to act like a prideful person, and try to create pride in humans so they can see more pride first hand. Justice spirits love justice, like to play judge, and try to enforce justice in the world. So you end up with the sloth demon in the mage origin, who really just loves napping, and Allure the desire demon from the Sebastian DLC, who really just loves making people insanely obsessed with their desires. Over time, a spirit's favorite aspect of the physical world may shift, as upon further reflection they realize that vengeance is way cooler than plain-old justice. All spirits enjoy jaunts into the physical realm because it is the source of the things they are obsessed with. The Chantry made the sensible decision to classify spirits as demons and not-demons based upon how frequently the spirits can be harmful. Rage demons pretty much always go for wanton slaughter, so they're demons, but a spirit of valor (while similarly battle-loving) isn't going to turn the mage into a murderer, so it isn't called a spirit.

However, all spirits can be either good, or harmful. Justice & Anders killed a bunch of people, and a spirit of sloth might make animals just drop dead around you so that it can possess you while you nap all day in your cabin in the woods (only occasionally getting up to cook and eat the suddenly dead animals). It's just that usually demons are bad, and non-demons aren't.

EDIT:

DreamerM wrote...
And Vengence. Vengence just wants to kill
everything, right? Not just Templars, but EVERYTHING. How did that
happen? Where did that come from? Anders? Justice? A split personality
with a split personality? My brain is melting.

There's a conversation between Anders & Isabella in act III, where Izzy says, 'Justice is just an idea. It works fine in a world of ideas, but in our world, where does it end?' and talks about punishment and revenge going out of control and ending up with the whole world blind. I think that, for once, the pirate girl was spot-on

Modifié par MinotaurWarrior, 29 juin 2011 - 06:57 .

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

which is where the various mages who have passed their Harrowing come in. They can help instruct the mages on what to actually do, no Chantry rules. The rules regarding telling mages about the Harrowing and demons no longer apply.

They're going to need to teach them a ****load.

And also... Orsino could've helped. He could've been a decent Mage General had he not gone all Harvestino.

Yeah they'll have help now that they're out of the Circles. But before? Just stuffy speeches and no one explaining what a Harrowing was until it was their time.

There's still going to be a lot of inexperienced mages out there which might make them easy pickings for their numerous enemies.

[TEWR]

I imagine the mages' phylacteries are destroyed. At least most of them.


If so, then the mage children may just run home to their parents if their parents weren't colossal pricks to them when their mage powers surfaced. And maybe an apostate mage will travel with them and live alongside them and instruct them.

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine the mages' phylacteries are destroyed. At least most of them.


If so, then the mage children may just run home to their parents if their parents weren't colossal pricks to them when their mage powers surfaced. And maybe an apostate mage will travel with them and live alongside them and instruct them.

You're a glass half full kinda guy aren't you?

When I look at the mages I see a bunch of sheltered people who've been socially and culturally handicapped by the Circle system. I see these people now trying to operate out in a hostile world full of people who want them dead, demons who want their bodies, and conmen who see ripe purses waiting to be picked.

The beginning of this war will be really hard on the mages.

[TEWR]

I'm not sure what kind of guy I actually am to be honest =P


I'm just speculating. I have no clue what will happen to the mages. On one hand, they can get support from various areas. On the other hand, the Chantry has indeed crippled the mages so that it will be hard for them to find support.


But, if they use evidence of mages in the past having helped certain things, they may get support. They could easily sway Ferelden to their side (whether secretly or blatantly) by reminding Ferelden that 2 (or 3) mages stopped the Blight, one being an apostate.

They could also say that Ferelden was freed from the Orlesians with the help of a mage.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

None at all from the looks of it.

Which confuses me more about why Cassandra completely breezed over Anders's part in the Chantry Bombing. Heck, when Anders is first mentioned, she just dismisses him as "that Warden." She is also under the impression that the Champion intentionally brought the Idol to the surface, made sure it got to Meredith so she would go crazy, and and all so that s/he and Sibling could "spread subversion against the Chantry." All of this sounds like something a Chantry P.R Propaganda meister would assemble, but if it's propaganda you're after, I'd think ANDERS, not Hawke, would be a much more useful tool: something Templar could tell frightened young magelings about to warn them both about the dangers of spirit possession ("if you do this, you could SLAUGHTER THE INNOCENT") and of mage freedom ("look how much suffering the Evil Apostate caused! Mage Freedom gets everybody dead!")

I imagine the Tevinter magisters and the Dalish mages are the most knowledgeable. Your average Circle mage is just told things by their jailers and teachers there's no context.

I agree this is likely. Remember that mage in DA:O that you met in the Fade during A Broken Circle...he was none too young and he'd lived in the circle his whole life, and he said Uldred's attack was the first time he'd ever actually seen Blood Magic in person.

...it's going to be a mess in DA3. High stakes, high emotions, and a bunch of scared untrained boys and girls going off to war unprepared for the dangers they're up against.

Sounds like a recipe for a bloodbath, true. Good thing the Tevinter will be there to offer safe harbor and hope to scared little magelings. Did I say "safe harbor" and "hope?" I meant "work in servitude to us and maybe we won't kill you."

Really, if the Templars are annulling mage circles all over Thedas, the Magisters are going to have something to say about it. Not out of compassion, but by branding themselves the defenders of mage-kind, they could unite every magic-user on the planet under their banner...

[Foolsfolly]

They're going to need solid leadership. Someone with power and personality to help them. Otherwise the fraternities will fight, mages will desert to go apostate, and they'll fall apart before the united Templars.

They are definitely the underdog in this fight. And I know the destruction of a Chantry and death of a Grand Cleric will gather the faithful against the mages. The mages will get supporters, there's no doubt of that, but they're not united and they have no leadership yet.

And I doubt they'll have leadership immediately. The Circles are cut off from each other and communication may take a while to establish.

I hope, if we get to pick early on which side we're on, that the Pro-Mage storyline in DA3 is really dark and sad. About a dysfunctional group slowly coming together and being a force strong enough to actually win this war. An underdog story vs while the Pro-Templar characters start off at an advantage but perhaps spread too thin across all the different Circles.

God I hope DA3 focuses entirely on the Mage war.

[DreamerM]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...
There's a conversation between Anders & Isabella in act III, where Izzy says, 'Justice is just an idea. It works fine in a world of ideas, but in our world, where does it end?' and talks about punishment and revenge going out of control and ending up with the whole world blind. I think that, for once, the pirate girl was spot-on

The F!JackSparrow often is. And Anders did say something about there being no concept of Time in the Fade: Justice may be unable to reach that point where he says "enough, that's enough, I can stop now."

...Wait, post-explosion Anders actually says THIS was what Justice had been working for, this one dramatic act that would change the world, and that now his purpose was complete. So.... now I'm even more confused, because apparently Justice DOES have the ability to say "enough" and blowing up the Chantry made his life complete? How does that work for a personified living idea??

[megski]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm not sure what kind of guy I actually am to be honest =P


I'm just speculating. I have no clue what will happen to the mages. On one hand, they can get support from various areas. On the other hand, the Chantry has indeed crippled the mages so that it will be hard for them to find support.


But, if they use evidence of mages in the past having helped certain things, they may get support. They could easily sway Ferelden to their side (whether secretly or blatantly) by reminding Ferelden that 2 (or 3) mages stopped the Blight, one being an apostate.

They could also say that Ferelden was freed from the Orlesians with the help of a mage.

I was thinking about this and I think that the circle is kind of necessary, just not the oppression.  Won't children need to know basic essentials about their powers and how to use them?  I'm sure that nobles and more wealthy people could afford private tutors for their children, but what about the common folk?  Maybe the circle could become more of a school and a place of resource instead of a life long, templar guarded boarding house.  

[Foolsfolly]

Which confuses me more about why Cassandra completely breezed over Anders's part in the Chantry Bombing. Heck, when Anders is first mentioned, she just dismisses him as "that Warden." She is also under the impression that the Champion intentionally brought the Idol to the surface, made sure it got to Meredith so she would go crazy, and and all so that s/he and Sibling could "spread subversion against the Chantry." All of this sounds like something a Chantry P.R Propaganda meister would assemble, but if it's propaganda you're after, I'd think ANDERS, not Hawke, would be a much more useful tool: something Templar could tell frightened young magelings about to warn them both about the dangers of spirit possession ("if you do this, you could SLAUGHTER THE INNOCENT") and of mage freedom ("look how much suffering the Evil Apostate caused! Mage Freedom gets everybody dead!")

Cassandra totally should have known about Anders. I mean Cullen's right there as everything went to hell. And Cullen has insights that might be important for the Seekers to know, but she went to Varric first.

...three years later too. The Seekers are right on top of their game, clearly.

I agree this is likely. Remember that mage in DA:O that you met in the Fade during A Broken Circle...he was none too young and he'd lived in the circle his whole life, and he said Uldred's attack was the first time he'd ever actually seen Blood Magic in person.

I'd forgotten about that. But it makes sense. Mages are locked in and everything's forbidden to them. They're not even told what a Harrowing is until it's too late. I'm sure they're plenty knowledgeable in many things but I doubt most of them have any first hand experience in anything.

Really, if the Templars are annulling mage circles all over Thedas, the Magisters are going to have something to say about it. Not out of compassion, but by branding themselves the defenders of mage-kind, they could unite every magic-user on the planet under their banner...

This is the first "Tevinter will be their ally" comment that actually sounds like Tevinter (that I've read anyway).

And it's an easy out for the mages too. They have no experience at war or commanding men. They'll look to Tevinter with hope and naivety ...and will be used by them. Tevinters aren't known for compassion, they'll see tools and slaves begging to be used.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

God I hope DA3 focuses entirely on the Mage war.

This. AND the complications involved, like Tevinter trying to capitalize on the chaos to strengthen their Black Divine, the Qunari maybe smelling weakness in the Tevinter, and Flemeth, Morrigan, Leiliana and those Gray Wardens still working their spooky, shadowy plans...it's a nice set-up. Oh, and "enchantment!" boy. Something's up there...

...It'd be a shame to squander all this. I am hoping against hope for a DA:3 with a story so lovingly and intricately crafted that we forgive all of DA:2s failures and then some.

[megski]

DreamerM wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

God I hope DA3 focuses entirely on the Mage war.

This. AND the complications involved, like Tevinter trying to capitalize on the chaos to strengthen their Black Divine, the Qunari maybe smelling weakness in the Tevinter, and Flemeth, Morrigan, Leiliana and those Gray Wardens still working their spooky, shadowy plans...it's a nice set-up. Oh, and "enchantment!" boy. Something's up there...

...It'd be a shame to squander all this. I am hoping against hope for a DA:3 with a story so lovingly and intricately crafted that we forgive all of DA:2s failures and then some.

When I was reading about the primeval thaigs and the dwarvan mages I read that some speculate that sandal is the last dwarven mage.  So that could be a theory! 

[TEWR]

@Foolsfolly: which once again brings me to Orsino. The entire Circle supported him and followed him, and Bioware killed him off in pro-mage playthroughs just so we could have "two epic boss fights". When we still could've had the Harvester battle without Orsino being the one to cause it.

All they had to do was have a scene play where Orsino thinks that they can win because almost all of the mages survived that first battle (one died), and then the Veil is torn so much because of it that a Pride Demon comes through and possesses a Mage Corpse and uses the ritual Orsino knew about to mold with all of the Templar corpses and BAM! You have your Harvester battle, keep the mage who could actually be a good leader in the war, and it's better.

@Megski: I agree. I've never argued that the Circles shouldn't exist. But the way they existed prior to DA2 wasn't the way things should be.

Ideally, it should be a boarding school where Mages learn to perfect their mastery of the arcane, are allowed to see their family, and upon graduating to full-fledged magehood, they can leave and live a normal life. They can marry, raise kids, if they have kids send them to the Circle closest to them, and repeat.

But the mages would also have to check in with the Templars either in their home village/city or at the Circles. They would also have to submit themselves to a test. The test being a way to determine if they're possessed (either through the Merrill Method or the Anders Attack).

That's just a rough and very incomplete thought, as I'm heading to bed now.

[Foolsfolly]

DreamerM wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

God I hope DA3 focuses entirely on the Mage war.

This. AND the complications involved, like Tevinter trying to capitalize on the chaos to strengthen their Black Divine, the Qunari maybe smelling weakness in the Tevinter, and Flemeth, Morrigan, Leiliana and those Gray Wardens still working their spooky, shadowy plans...it's a nice set-up. Oh, and "enchantment!" boy. Something's up there...

...It'd be a shame to squander all this. I am hoping against hope for a DA:3 with a story so lovingly and intricately crafted that we forgive all of DA:2s failures and then some.

Well, except I don't want a "He will rise" thing to happen or "all the magic will return" at least not just yet. Those are too easy of an out for the war not having a winner.

And frankly, it's still likely that Mages and Templars will join forces to stop...whatever in the end.

All these things I'd rather avoid if at all possible.

[TEWR]

I still maintain that Sandal's prophecy about magic returning deals only with the dwarves.


edit: and yes, I did say I was going to bed. But once again, I can't sleep

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juin 2011 - 07:43 .

[Foolsfolly]

@Foolsfolly: which once again brings me to Orsino. The entire Circle supported him and followed him, and Bioware killed him off in pro-mage playthroughs just so we could have "two epic boss fights". When we still could've had the Harvester battle without Orsino being the one to cause it.

All they had to do was have a scene play where Orsino thinks that they can win because almost all of the mages survived that first battle (one died), and then the Veil is torn so much because of it that a Pride Demon comes through and possesses a Mage Corpse and uses the ritual Orsino knew about to mold with all of the Templar corpses and BAM! You have your Harvester battle, keep the mage who could actually be a good leader in the war, and it's better.

I actually like it as is. I mean the Orsino dying thing could have been done much better but it's more interesting when they lack leadership. It gives them a clear disadvantage. Otherwise they're the guys who can explode city blocks with a thought, an ounce of salt peter, and some flakes of drakestone.

How could the Templars defeat that?

As is, right now with no information, the Mage side of the war just feels so much more interesting. They have more to lose, they're closest to losing, and they have all these different ways to gain power or lose it all.

The Templars have their clear advantages and they sound so boring because of it.

[HSHAW]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Foolsfolly: which once again brings me to Orsino. The entire Circle supported him and followed him, and Bioware killed him off in pro-mage playthroughs just so we could have "two epic boss fights".

IIRC Gaider stated that it was done so that people didn't automatically think of the mage ending as the "good" ending.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Cassandra totally should have known about Anders. I mean Cullen's right there as everything went to hell. And Cullen has insights that might be important for the Seekers to know, but she went to Varric first.

Speaking of which, where is Cullen? He was alive and (relatively) sane last we saw him, so why isn't the "Meredith went bonkers!" story more widely known? And why so much heat on the Champion when Cullen saw Anders blow the Chantry?

...three years later too. The Seekers are right on top of their game, clearly.

I'm certain they've been doing other important things, like....uh.....mmmm......it's a secret!

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'd forgotten about that. But it makes sense. Mages are locked in and everything's forbidden to them. They're not even told what a Harrowing is until it's too late.

How common is the knowledge that Harrowings even exist, do you think? The people who know do seem willing enough to tell you, but you do have special Player Character Powers of Tell-me-everything-ness..