292 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Hey I'm all for the mages being the underdogs. But even with Orsino they're still the underdogs. You could have Orsino commanding at least 2 or 3 Circles (Kirkwall, Starkhaven, Ferelden) under his command, and pro-mage players need to help him unite the rest under his banner or the war is lost.

It's just, I really like Orsino and I don't think Bioware did his character justice in the slightest.

[megski]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I still maintain that Sandal's prophecy about magic returning deals only with the dwarves.


edit: and yes, I did say I was going to bed. But once again, I can't sleep

Thats an interesting thing to think about too, and I also agree with your comment about the circle.  It may not be what a radical mage like anders would want, but at least its a compromise and a start for more freedom.  I remember Wynne saying in party banter that the circle and the templar order were necessary, and I have faith in her wisdom.  

[TEWR]

HSHAW wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Foolsfolly: which once again brings me to Orsino. The entire Circle supported him and followed him, and Bioware killed him off in pro-mage playthroughs just so we could have "two epic boss fights".

IIRC Gaider stated that it was done so that people didn't automatically think of the mage ending as the "good" ending.

It's always going to be the good ending. If I have to choose between wholesale slaughter of the innocents for an act one man did because a woman who has wanted an Annulment for a long time now finally called for it with a bad excuse in mind, and protecting the innocent from said lunatic Templar, I'm going for the latter.

Nothing can make it not be the good ending.

edit: even Varric says many mages were saved from "a brutal injustice". That automatically makes it the good ending.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juin 2011 - 07:52 .

[Foolsfolly]

How common is the knowledge that Harrowings even exist, do you think? The people who know do seem willing enough to tell you, but you do have special Player Character Powers of Tell-me-everything-ness..

Common. If I remember correctly there's quite a few apprentices gossiping about it.

They still have no idea what it is though. So it's this big boogeyman test that if you fail you either die or get tranquiled.

No stress. Nothing the demons couldn't use to take you over at all...

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Foolsfolly: which once again brings me to Orsino. The entire Circle supported him and followed him, and Bioware killed him off in pro-mage playthroughs just so we could have "two epic boss fights".

IIRC Gaider stated that it was done so that people didn't automatically think of the mage ending as the "good" ending.

It's always going to be the good ending. If I have to choose between wholesale slaughter of the innocents for an act one man did because a woman who has wanted an Annulment for a long time now finally called for it with a bad excuse in mind, and protecting the innocent from said lunatic Templar, I'm going for the latter.

Nothing can make it not be the good ending.

Exactly.

The finale is dominated by Meredith over-reacting and slaughtering innocents who had nothing to do with the bombing instead of being focused on the mage issue.

As such there's clearly a 'right' ending and a 'wrong' ending. Wholesale slaughter of an entire people who may be guilty of blood magic but not the bombing or not?

The only way siding with the Templars in that instance makes any sense is if you look at Kirkwall full of escaped mages and abominations as being too costly for the innocent civilizans. So you agree with Meredith in stemming the innocent deaths of civilizans.

But the game really doesn't focus on that aspect.

It's really about "do I agree I should kill a group that didn't blow up the Chantry?"

Which was a miscalucation. It should have been about freedom vs security at the end. Then you wouldn't need both leaders being insane so there isn't a "good" ending.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But the mages would also have to check in with the Templars either in their home village/city or at the Circles. They would also have to submit themselves to a test. The test being a way to determine if they're possessed (either through the Merrill Method or the Anders Attack).

If the mages have psychedactyries, then there should, technically, be no reason to keep them in one place, since it's like a tracking anklet: the Templar can find any of them at any time. Having them check-in and submit to tests though.... there are ways to fool tests. And there's the matter of the neighbors, who may panic if they can't stop imagining what the local mage-school-graduate's fireballs could do to his house, home, and life if they're not super careful. I can't imagine living openly as a mage in a society that still blames magic for the cruelty of the Magisters and the Darkspawn Blight would be easy even under the best of circumstances.

[Foolsfolly]

Filament wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

As for abominations appearing out of the ground, unfortunately, story and gameplay occasionally don't intersect as well as they should, and this would be one of those instances. It was noted, however, and the general consensus is (I believe) that abominations need to be handled like, well, abominations. Even the weak ones should be a believable threat. Able to destroy entire towns? Well, you can chalk some of that up to Chantry hyperbole, but they aren't something to be regarded lightly.

I think this should apply to all Fade creatures, really. Except wisps (unless it's a really big, angry wisp). The whole "blood mage summons 200 shades and a dozen rage demons to defend his mansion" thing seems a little too.. trivializing of these eldritch creatures when most people have never even seen one much less know how to fight it.

A lot of mages we fight don't summon that many demons. Those that do aren't summoning the powerful demons, since they're bending the demons to their will.

That said, there should have been a Soldier's Peak like moment in DA2 where a mage summons demons and finds out, too late, that their will cannot override the demons'.

[Foolsfolly]

If the mages have psychedactyries, then there should, technically, be no reason to keep them in one place, since it's like a tracking anklet: the Templar can find any of them at any time.

I disagree. The Circles are a preventative measure against Abominations slaughtering innocents, or blood mages mind controlling people and using them as living batteries.

Just using the phylacteries would be a reactive measure. The Templars could only go after mages/abominations after the fact. While that is more just, you try explaining that to crying mothers and angry townsfolk.

[TEWR]

You can certainly roleplay your Hawke as believing he's doing what's best for peace (which he can even say), but that's not what the game presents us. And that is the problem.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

A lot of mages we fight don't summon that many demons. Those that do aren't summoning the powerful demons, since they're bending the demons to their will.

That said, there should have been a Soldier's Peak like moment in DA2 where a mage summons demons and finds out, too late, that their will cannot override the demons'.

Yeah, I don't think there should be that many weak demons just available to be used and bent to a mage's will at apparently so little risk to the mage himself. It should be a heavy risk () just to summon a few demons, and they should all be dangerous in their own right.

you're gonna force me to say it aren't you? *Sigh....*



Heavy risk..... but the priiiize....

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IIRC Gaider stated that it was done so that people didn't automatically think of the mage ending as the "good" ending.

Gaider is a bit late to the partyl. Orsino shows no signs whatsoever of insanity, or even of fanaticism, before that very moment. To say it came-out of left feild, especially on a pro-mage playthrough where you have just curb-stomped some Templars, doesn't feel shocking, it feels like a completely arbitrary attempt at false equivalency.

It felt completely arbitrary, a false equivalency, but even as the act of A Desperate Man it doesn't match up to Meredith's never-ending parade of Must Oppress Mages, flog this one, Tranquil that one, how dare you try and run away, why does everything I whip leave me?

By the way, since this is the Abomination topic, would Harvestino be considered an abomination? Or just a really ugly amalgamation of blood magic, necromancy, and...uh...supernatural super glue? And does anyone else think he looked like a really gristly Katamari?

megski wrote...

When I was reading about the primeval
thaigs and the dwarvan mages I read that some speculate that sandal is
the last dwarven mage. 

Or the first. Or something entirely different. We don't know. Answers. Who needs em?

[megski]

Honestly, I was so confused about the ending. I mean, crazy or not, what else was meredith supposed to think. I thought doing the right thing was to help the mages, but good grief everyone seemed to turn on you in the end, even people you had helped. Even Anders did some shady things to you. Then the Orsino thing. I was like, "My god, everyone here is flippin' CRAZY!" If it wasn't for the lyrium sword making mere crazy, I could totally see her justified. At the same time, the 'templar' choice was killing Fenryal in the fade, when he could clearly resist the demons with just a small amount of encouragement. This I can see is clearly wrong. The only thing keeping me from not destroying all the mages was the fact that I liked Bethany and KNEW she wasn't bad. The whole thing left me feeling utterly confused. I still have 'my' dwarf thinking ingrained from origins. "Show me who's bad, and I'll smash them."

[TEWR]

Gaider called Harvesters (and I love how my word Harvestino is catching on now ) Super-Abominations.


So we need to put them in tights and give them a cape so they can fight crime.

[Foolsfolly]

I could totally see her justified. At the same time, the 'templar' choice was killing Fenryal in the fade, when he could clearly resist the demons with just a small amount of encouragement.

The tranquiling him opinion here would be summed up thusly: "clearly he could resist the demon this time."

And Harvesters, if they're abominations, are Voltron Abominations. They get stronger the more abominations they connect to!

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gaider called Harvesters (and I love how my word Harvestino is catching on now ) Super-Abominations.


So we need to put them in tights and give them a cape so they can fight crime.

Fight crime? Nah, they'd wait until someone else put down the criminal, then declare it's all too much to deal with and eat all the dead bodies.

So they ARE Abominations....um....I'm confused again.

I thought an abomination was what you got when a spirit possessed a human body. Or...any sort of human/spirit co-habitaton arrangement, really.

Harvestino called a spirit to possess him? When? And since when do spirit-posessions make you a human-corpse-Katamari-Thing?

[HSHAW]

@TEWR: Harvester in tights.... that's an even worse mental image than all those Orsino x Meredith gifs that KoP keeps making.

[megski]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I could totally see her justified. At the same time, the 'templar' choice was killing Fenryal in the fade, when he could clearly resist the demons with just a small amount of encouragement.

The tranquiling him opinion here would be summed up thusly: "clearly he could resist the demon this time."

And Harvesters, if they're abominations, are Voltron Abominations. They get stronger the more abominations they connect to!

I still couldn't see that as right.  I mean, how many other mages would have to do more harrowings to see if they could resist this time.  And Voltron sounds like a really bad car name, haha.  

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

He's a creature formed by demonic possession and the transmutation of flesh-- so the same end result as the harvester, but not the same means.

His post regarding Harvestino.

[Foolsfolly]

I thought an abomination was what you got when a spirit possessed a human body. Or...any sort of human/spirit co-habitaton arrangement, really.

Well, demons possess corpses, trees, and even cats. Those are abominations too in a manner of speaking.

...

...one even possessed a Profane so stones too.

Demons are kinda stupid. They'll possess anything and are probably surprised when they go insane because they lack a mouth to scream or a body to move.

[TEWR]

HSHAW wrote...

@TEWR: Harvester in tights.... that's an even worse mental image than all those Orsino x Meredith gifs that KoP keeps making.

Either give them a full spandex suit or just tidey-whities.


Flesh golem version of Captain Underpants!

[megski]

Filament wrote...

Not the same means? Then what means did the dwarves and their Tevinter pal use?

I was wondering that too because at the end of amgarrak there were a bunch of those ugly little things scurrying around.  I thought they were some type of weird animal thing.