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[TEWR]

summoning a demon into a construct of flesh. They made the actual golem, then summoned the spirit.


Orsino just got hugs from corpses and a denizen of the Fade wanted to join in. Oops....

[Foolsfolly]

Filament wrote...

Not the same means? Then what means did the dwarves and their Tevinter pal use?

The Harvester in Golems was created with casteless bodies and a Fade spirit was forced into them.

Whatever Orsino did he managed to use his own body and mind in the process. Perhaps he tried to use his will over the corpses instead of calling in a Fade spirit....and lost his mind in the process.

Impossible to say since Orsino's in no shape to explain what he attempted to do.

[Foolsfolly]

Filament wrote...

I was thinking if they're some kind of super-abomination, then what the dwarves did was basically Caridin's golem making process, except because molten lyrium is too much for fleshy dead bodies to handle, they used magic to bind the body together instead... magic involving demonic possession of a living host at the center of the golem, much like Orsino.

Admittedly, I've only played Golems twice (it's my least favorite DLC for the series. I just did not find it enjoyable) but I'm positive they just used dead casteless bodies and then summoned a spirit into the mess of flesh.

Although, I'm currently almost done with Awakening (started a new Warden 3-4 months ago, an Amell to import into DA2 to see what difference Hawke and the Warden being cousins would have) so I'll be going to Golems soon....it should jog my memory.

But I'm positive it was just dead bodies.

[Foolsfolly]

Maybe?

I honestly think the Harvester in DA2 was not in control of anything. If it was Orsino's intent to control it...he lost that battle. It just attacks at wild, which means turning on his allies (if pro-mage).

[DreamerM]

Filament wrote...

So Amgarrak was a corpse-golem controlled by a spirit-possessed corpse whereas Harvestino was a corpse-golem controlled by an abomination.

Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.

[Recycled Human]

Are the varterrals necessarily spirits/demons? I always thought of them as their own race like dragons... But it would make some sense, the elvhen of old having magic the current society couldn't even dream of. Perhaps they did fashion a construct for a demon and somehow their magic/the bargain had better control. As epler mentioned the power/station of a Mage determines the level of the demon they can deal with. The elves of old were probably pretty BA.

Did anyone mention wilmod? As far as I know he's the only abomination go turn into a shade which is odd because the codex defines them as a demon in our world without a host...and the only distinction I can offer is gameplay dictates he can't look like a regular abom.

The flesh golem thing doesn't seem so weird considering Orsino was interested/helping gascard with his creepy research. And 3 years is a long time, maybe he had access to the process involved with creating the flesh golem in amgarrak and possibly spurred on by gascards research he learned how to make one using blood magic (which was certainly not what the dwarves did). /end speculation.

[Jugo616]

Personaly I wonder why there is no darkspawn abominations. The only demon on darkspawn action I remember is that possessed ogre...

[Rifneno]

Filament wrote...

Did David Gaider actually say "super-abomination" or did he just say possession? Because possession applies to corpses or people (or objects), "abomination" only applies to living people though as far as I can tell.

The exact quote on Harvester: "He's a creature formed by demonic possession and the transmutation of flesh-- so the same end result as the harvester, but not the same means." http://social.biowar...29694/3#7436060 Was giddy I got an answer on that... that had been bothering me for the longest time.

How was Quentin's franken-wife research relevant to this? He did not seem to bind a spirit into her.

Looking for logical reasoning in DA2's plot is like eating Skittles for vitamin C.

Varterrals... they look like they have people parts sticking out of them. Are they Harvesters too? More successful Harvesters doing what they're supposed to do? Or golems?

"These deadly guardians were created by elves in the time of ancient Arlathan, and are now often associated with that lost elven culture and the times that have been lost to history. It is said that the Varterrals were created from the elements of rock, tree, wind, and rain."

They're like a harvester, but instead of a blood mage it's a psycho tree hugger druid. Rumors that varterrals are created not by the ancient elven gods but by a slow kid in Third Grade Arts & Crafts remains unsubstantiated.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

What I don't get is how demons in DA2 can summon abominations. Where do they summon them from? Abominations were people who have been possessed, so how do they just pop out of the ground like mushrooms? In Broken Circle we know they used to be mages, apprentices, enchanters, PEOPLE. We see plenty in DA2 who turn into such creatures. But making them a summonable monster was just...wrong...and hopefully an oversight and simple misunderstanding of what the monster type is.

A mage-abomination should be able to summon shades and demons, or if particularly powerful like the Baroness/Pride Demon in DA:A open gates for others to enter the world, but neither a demon nor an abomination should be able to summon other abominations (unless, y'know, there are humans/elves around ready to be possessed, a la Uldred turning the Circle mages).

As to the weak/powerful abominations debate, while 'abomination' is meant to mean a possessed mage, it's become a misnomer for any kind of living being possession with ugly purple skin, I think. Mundanes can be possessed, and while they look like the classic abomination monster type they are not the same thing--even if there's a demon inside, it's limited to its host's power or lack thereof. Hell, even a mage's corpse can be more powerful than a mundane mook abomination (Arcane Horror, anyone?).

Personally I think they were overused in DA2. They were supposed to be horrifying in DA:O and a chilling reminder of lost humanity, and were used in appropriate places to achieve this effect. But in DA2 they popped up in too many places as combat candy. :/ Maybe it was the limited number of monster models going around, I don't know.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 29 juin 2011 - 11:55 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Sometimes it appears that abominations are just mindless hulking brutes with large tumors covering their bodies. They sometimes talk and show a form of thinking, other times they're slight animals destroying everything they come across.

Some demons aren't particularly intelligent or inclined to talk. Compare Rage Demons to Pride Demons. I think we have only met one talking Rage Demon, which basically gave us the finger in DA:O and attacked. Pride Demons are more talky

Sometimes the Abomination isn't an Abomination, like Uldred, instead they turn into a Demon.

Then there's the Duchess an Abomination who according to Justice has now become a demon, is that the explaination for Uldred? The Duchess had decades in the Fade using and feeding off of spirits/souls to become that. How did Uldred become a demon so quickly?

I believe Uldred actually summoned his demon before it possessed him physically, rather than the demon accessing him through the Fade. I strongly believe there are at least two types of mage abominations that are
determined by the means possession took place: spiritually (through the Fade) or physically (the demon/spirit was in the mortal realm before possessing a host).

And then there's the special case of Connor's possession, which is cured by killing the Desire Demon that possessed him. This can't be too special of a case since Irving, Jowen, and Morrigan all seem to know that you can go into the Fade and kill a demon and the possessed mage will revert to normal.

Connor's case *was* special, since he still retained a sense of self and appeared to be fighting the demon and sometimes breaking through. We don't know the particulars of his deal with the Desire Demon, so the devil may be in those unknown details...

The other mages probably wouldn't have even bothered trying to save Connor if he'd gone complete abomination, I think.

The ritual to kill the demon in the Fade doesn't even require the victim present since a floor and who know how far seperated the mages/Jowen and Connor.

The Fade's a funny thing. And since you can do pretty much the same thing in DA2 to free Feynriel, only not have to be a mage, I guess proximity isn't a factor but anchorage is. In DA2 you do it at Feynriel's home because the site of his childhood will serve as a focus. Maybe Redcliffe does the same for Connor.

Even more interesting is the fact that possessed mages like Anders and Connor have moments without the demon/spirit controlling them. This seems to imply that the demon exists in both the Fade and the mortal realm but can only focus on one area at a time, either in the host body or dwelling in the Fade.

Well, I personally think Connor's demon was still mostly in the Fade and his possession was spiritual. Even if you go after him in Redcliffe and fight the 'demon' it vanishes upon defeat and Connor is what's leftover. Connor can state at one point that the demon has pulled back from him (at least for a time), so it seems he can both fight the possession AND be temporarily given a reprieve.

Anders, on the other hand, Justice was in the mortal realm when he possessed Anders, so their connection is physical and a lot more intimate. In his case, I don't think Justice *wants* to control Anders because that's not the sort of spirit he wants to be. But in extreme cases of injustice he is provoked into taking over. Injustice angers him on an epic scale and it's like Justice can't help himself in those cases, but otherwise he leaves Anders in control--though he is still very much present in Anders' body and mind.

Which means during these moments would it not be possible to tranquil the mage and thus lock the demon out of the mage forever?

Definitely not. In DA:O you actually see Tranquil mages become abominations (with full spell-casting capabilities IIRC, which suggests demonic possession re-links the mage to the Fade as Anders/Justice did for Karl). So being Tranquil does not guarantee no demon. Though it would limit the chance of possession, since the Formari don't dream.

OR is there some kind of difference between Abomination and Possessed Mage? If so then why do people (including possibly the Warden) think Flemeth is an Abomination while still maintaining a human appearance? There must be president of human looking Abominations (and there is we see mages transform in DA2 and Uldred force demons into mages in DA:O).

An abomination is, by definition, a mage possessed by a demon.

The classical abomination monster model is one kind, but not the only kind, as there is plenty of proof that some abominations can retain the form of their host (Connor, the Baroness, Uldred, Wilred the Templar in DA2, Kitty in DA:O) and even change back and forth between guises. These are obviously the more insidious kind, as in DA2 for instance a faction of mages was banking on sticking demons into Templars and having them walk around completely undetected.

I think, in the end, it depends on the demon. If it wants to break loose and reveal itself visually, it can. If it doesn't...no one will know it's there.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 29 juin 2011 - 12:23 .

[Sister Helen]

Jugo616 wrote...

Personaly I wonder why there is no darkspawn abominations. The only demon on darkspawn action I remember is that possessed ogre...

I just figured the Architect was an abomination.  It made more sense than having him be a random mutation.

Some darkspawn can cast magic, so it would make sense that they would have the same "attractiveness" to demons as human mages... Maybe less than your average human mage, as they have no political power or real ability to change their circumstances under the watchful eye of the Chantry and its templars.

Perhaps if the Architect is a darkspawn that is possessed by a demon (a pride one, maybe?, or one that we haven't seen yet, that hasn't been categorized), the demon is one that is a bit more "forward thinking" than your average demon and saw the potential in having an intelligent darkspawn to lead the others.

Modifié par Sister Helen, 29 juin 2011 - 12:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

JohnEpler wrote...


I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence.

Speaking of power and influence, how much does the possessed influence the Abomination that results? An Abomination often seems to reflect both the demon and the person involved, but it's unclear how much.


I ask because a friend once railed me with his own 'listen to this side-story' story idea of how a Pride Abomination might try and lead a heathen village in which Abominations are integrated into the socieity. A Demoscracy, if you will: the Demons get (willing) hosts in exchange for protection and guidance, and it's maintained by a Pride Abomination (and being challenged by a lesser abomination who wants to usurp power).

I asked him how such a village would stay hidden, and the friend said that the village leader was such a prideful man that his ego was on the line to make it work, and so the Pride Abomination's own pride was what was making this system somewhat sustainable.


I've always wondered if such a thing could be possible, depending on the influence host and demon have on one another.

[HSHAW]

Didn't someone say in The Calling that the taint repels demons and that due to that there have been no recorded cases of darkspawn abominations?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It's been said that demons don't understand the taint. I suppose what that means is up to interpretation...

Edit: Considering Anders is a Grey Warden and possessed, I don't think taint means they can't become abominations. As for darkspawn, don't know. Maybe the Song protects them.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 29 juin 2011 - 01:57 .

[TEWR]

@Shadow of Light Dragon: Anders is different. He fused with Justice, and Justice was torn from the Fade entirely. It's not like Anders merged with an actual demon like Torpor, Audacity, Allure, etc..

[Dean_the_Young]

The difference between Justice and any demon is a matter of intent, not composition. There is no fundamental difference between a Spirite and a Demon: it's largely a derived shorthand for the difference in general actions.

Whether a spirit/demon torn from the fade entirely before merging is, of course, a different matter. Was the difference between Justice and the typical abomination that Justice had been torn from the fade? Or that Justice, torn from the fade, developed in an uncommon direction that any demon similarly torn could have done?

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Morrigan isn't a blood mage. she can be made into one, but she isn't actually a maleficar. Just a free mage.

Technically, she is. The DR is blood magic.

And a potentially very dangerous and certainly very controversial application of it

Doesn't that make Finn a blood mage, then? I just don't see the dark ritual being enough to label her a blood mage when it's a ritual that can be considered blood magic, but doesn't change the fact that we never see Morrigan fuel her spells with blood instead of mana like Merrill does. I know the Chantry puts a bounty on her according to Witch Hunt because they suspect she's a blood mage (for the Orlesian Warden - I'd assume the Hero of Ferelden who romanced Morrigan put a stop to that), but it could be another mistake akin to the Magnificent D'Sims.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I think that the potential is certainly there for this sort of thing, given that the Circles are no longer under the sort of strict control that they once were. Coupled with the fact that the leader of the Kirkwall revolt used blood magic (his eventual defeat no doubt being glossed over by those who've been itching for a chance to get their Tevinter-style blood rites on) and you have a situation where powerful mages are more likely to end up in situations where they see deals with demons as being a preferable course of action.

A lot of pro-mage people (myself included) really didn't like that regarding Orsino. It made us cry and yell (and not the good way tears should be shed and anger should be heard ). I immediately respected him and wanted to see more of him, as he was a badass in my opinion.

We really want a retcon for Orsino in the future for our pro-mage playthroughs (be it in DA3 or an expansion). Can we haz one? Pweez?

I think making Orsino an associate of Quentin, a Starkhaven mage, and making him turn into a "super abomination" after Hawke took care of the templars who tried to invade the room, didn't make much sense. I also don't understand why Hawke fought a blood mage at the docks when he was attacking templars to protect the men, women, and children in the Circle of Kirkwall. Was this particular blood mage pro-templar? Was the blood mage deeply offended that Hawke was attacking the templars? If Hawke sides with the mages, he should be fighting the templars - not mages.

That said, wouldn't a pro-mage blood mage Hawke and his blood mage Dalish girlfriend be a better example for mages who want to use blood magic to deal with Circle sanctioned magic-nullifying templars, rather than Orsino's Epic Fail?

Foolsfolly wrote...

Mr. Epler, you are a scholar and a gentleman. Thanks a lot for coming in here and talking. I understand Abominations more now. It just seemed so random before, certain cases behaving differently than the majority of Abominations and all. Thank you.

The next time I beat the game I shall salute your name in the credits. And then I shall point out the name to anyone who happens to be in the house and say, "That man is a scholar and a gentleman."

THIS.