292 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Some demons aren't particularly intelligent or inclined to talk. Compare Rage Demons to Pride Demons. I think we have only met one talking Rage Demon, which basically gave us the finger in DA:O and attacked. Pride Demons are more talky

Pride demons, according to the Codex, are the most powerful and intelligent demons of them all. They have a lot more to negotiate with.

Pride Demons showing up always kind of bothered me though, just because I believed the Codex when it said they were so powerful and dangerous that just one actually escaping to the mortal plane would threaten the entire world. And yet several turned up in DA:2 and the world is none the worse for it.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
The other mages probably wouldn't have even bothered trying to save Connor if he'd gone complete abomination, I think.

So there are degrees of Abomination now? I'm glad that's not confusing...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Definitely not. In DA:O you actually see Tranquil mages become abominations (with full spell-casting capabilities IIRC, which suggests demonic possession re-links the mage to the Fade as Anders/Justice did for Karl). So being Tranquil does not guarantee no demon. Though it would limit the chance of possession, since the Formari don't dream.

Acutally I think you DON'T see any Tranquil become Abominations. You see mages do it, but not the Tranquil. One of the benefits of the Rite is that the Tranquil can't be possessed, because they have no connection to the Fade. The Tranquil we met in the Tower were afraid for their lives because they had no spells to protect themselves, but they were not afraid of being possessed.

And Janders didn't possess Karl. I think that incident where he "brought a peice of the fade into the world" means Anders contains a .... concentrated version of whatever link to the Fade the Rite severs to make a mage Tranquil.  I'd be curious to know if this is an effect Anders has on all Tranquil all the time, or if it only happens when he glows in the same room as a Tranquil mage.

Also, this has to be a quality unique to Justice, right? The Abominations in the Circle weren't causing the Tranquil to wake up... is that because those people were possessed from a distance, like Conner was, as opposed to Justice was physically inside Anders? How is it none of the magic-users in Thedas have researched this?

And this, again, makes me wonder what would happen if you tried the Rite of Tranquility on Janders, since he's not really connected to the Fade, he IS the Fade, he carries it inside him.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
An abomination is, by definition, a mage possessed by a demon.

What about the spirits that AREN'T demons, like Justice or Wynne's Faith? Those people are no less possessed then Ulrich was, were they?

Mostly what's required is clarification on what being "possessed" can mean. I was given the impression that most possessions were like Conner's: where a demon still in the Fade possesses a mage from afar. Conner still looked human but it was the demon doing most of the driving: Conner was barely aware what was happening around him. Now is this some quality of the long-distance possession that made Conner so powerless in this situation, or was it because of Conner's poor training, or was it some stipend that the demon insisted on while keeping Arl Eamon alive?

We don't have much of a frame of reference for Ulrich, but he was only a bit more appalling post-possession then he was pre-possession. This means if you can i.d which of his actions were his own and which were the demon's, you are better at this then I am.

And then there's the case of Wynne and Anders. Wynne was philisophical and kind and wants to Do Good and share wisdom and protect the innocent and the like...you could argue that without Faith she wouldn't have left the Tower to travel with the Hero, but I could point out that she also cheated death, knew she was living on borrowed time and wanted to do something meaningful with her last days.  If this was any change from her normal personality, I didn't notice it. As far as we can tell, this spirit never talks to Wynne and never even tries to take control of her body from her.

Anders's personality changed dramatically. I don't know if this is because we know Justice was physically on this plane when he possessed him, so the effect was much more intense, but his survival instinct and all the defenses of humor and fatalism he'd assembled so he could live in this world were thrown out and replaced with an unrelenting Justice Drive right for the rocks of Reality. Anders actually says that he can't have a conversation with Justice, their thoughts are too inter-mingled, but if that's the case when why can Justice occasionally override Anders's control and cause black-outs? That says he has to still be seperate on some level. Plus there was the Fade, were you could, for a moment, actually see Justice in "peaceful" control.

I will always resent that we could not take that one-of-a-kind moment to actually TALK to Justice, and find out his opinion of what's been going the heck on in that new head of his, as well as get more information about Vengence, but...nope! Not important. Lets go back to worrying about that Dreamer (silly name) and his terror of his demon-problem, nevermind that that kid doesn't really MATTER for the game's conclusion and Justice really, really does.

Why wasn't it an option to turn to Glowy Murder Man and tell him, "hold on, I know this is important but you and I REALLY need to talk." But no, I don't get to make the rules. Garrr.

Modifié par DreamerM, 29 juin 2011 - 08:23 .

[Wulfram]

You see an abomination turning Tranquil into Shades in Origins

[TEWR]

You do see Tranquil being turned into Abominations. On the second floor? Third? I know you walk in on an Abomination who has trapped 3 Tranquil, and he's turning them into Abominations. If you save them, then it does say that they are Tranquil.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You do see Tranquil being turned into Abominations. On the second floor? Third? I know you walk in on an Abomination who has trapped 3 Tranquil, and he's turning them into Abominations. If you save them, then it does say that they are Tranquil.

Have you got footage of this? Because I thought those were just more mages....

[DreamerM]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I can confirm that they are Tranquil. They have the word "tranquil" written above their heads and say things like "Thank you, that was an uncomfortable experience" in a creepy monotone and "if all were made Tranquil this would not have happened."

Hm...I wonder how Ulrich did that. If you CAN re-connect a Tranquil to the fade to let a demon through, then couldn't you adjust the process to, potentially, re-connect them to reverse the Tranquility process?

[Vit246]

Really? The boss fight with Uldred had Tranquils turning into abominations? I don't remember that.

On the other hand, if Tranquility can be temporarily reversed with the external presence of a Fade spirit, than perhaps theoretically, a mage could summon and implant a benevolent spirit directly into a Tranquil, restoring everything.

EDIT: Actually, it might make some sense. People don't have to be mages to be possessed by demons/spirits. They can possess just about anything. But then, every living thing has some connection to the Fade, one way or another. Tranquils are suppose to be people who are completely utterly totally cut off from the Fade.

Modifié par Vit246, 29 juin 2011 - 08:53 .

[LobselVith8]

Vit246 wrote...

Really? The boss fight with Uldred had Tranquils turning into abominations? I don't remember that.

On the other hand, if Tranquility can be reversed with Fade spirits, than theoretically, a mage could summon and implant a benevolent spirit into a Tranquil, restoring the connection to the Fade.

The tranquil are on the second floor of the Circle Tower, in the same room as the entrance to the third floor. The tranquil are turned into shades, it seems, while the enchanters with Irving are turned into abominations unless the Litany is used.

[Foolsfolly]

Jugo616 wrote...

Personaly I wonder why there is no darkspawn abominations. The only demon on darkspawn action I remember is that possessed ogre...

I can answer that, until very recently darkspawn were "souless vessels" which allowed the Archdemon to move body to body whenever. (This can't be a natural thing, mind you, someone created the darkspawn) Since the Architect however we have sentient darkspawn which means if there could ever be a Darkspawn abomination it can only be a story that happens now.

...depending on how many sentient darkspawn are still around, since the player totally could have slaughtered the Architect.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

What I don't get is how
demons in DA2 can summon abominations. Where do they summon them from?
Abominations were people who have been possessed, so how do they just
pop out of the ground like mushrooms? In Broken Circle we know they used
to be mages, apprentices, enchanters, PEOPLE. We see plenty in DA2 who
turn into such creatures. But making them a summonable monster was
just...wrong...and hopefully an oversight and simple misunderstanding of
what the monster type is.

Already answered earlier in the thread. It's just a mechanic and not the lore.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

Didn't
someone say in The Calling that the taint repels demons and that due to
that there have been no recorded cases of darkspawn
abominations?

I can't remember reading that. If so,
wouldn't it make Grey Warden mages immune to the possibility of becoming
abominations? Fiona became one, if briefly.

Than the taint doesn't reject demons. Plus Anders...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The difference between Justice and
any demon is a matter of intent, not composition. There is no
fundamental difference between a Spirite and a Demon: it's largely a
derived shorthand for the difference in general actions.

Whether a
spirit/demon torn from the fade entirely before merging is, of course, a
different matter. Was the difference between Justice and the typical
abomination that Justice had been torn from the fade? Or that Justice,
torn from the fade, developed in an uncommon direction that any demon
similarly torn could have done?

Exactly, the differences
between spirit and demon are in question. Merrill says they're one in
the same and Justice in Awakening says that demons are spirits that have
been corrupted by their desires.

If there's a difference between spirit and demon it may just come down to intent.

Vit246 wrote...

Really? The boss fight with Uldred had Tranquils turning into abominations? I don't remember that.

On
the other hand, if Tranquility can be reversed with Fade spirits, than
theoretically, a mage could summon and implant a benevolent spirit into a
Tranquil, restoring the connection to the Fade.

No. Not Uldred. There's a small group (2 maybe 3) Tranquil on the third floor who say "Thank you that was uncomfortable" or something. They're surrounded by Abominations.

I remember thinking they were turning tranquil into abominations but upon replaying we don't see them succeed. Perhaps the abominations were experimenting on the tranquil and we interrupted them.

[DreamerM]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
So far, reversing Tranquility seems possible if there are Fade-beings involved. Anders managed to pull Karl back to his original self, temporarily.

Anders didn't do it on purpose, though. This makes me think Justice didn't do it on purpose either. It just happened. How? Why? We will never know....

Foolsfolly wrote...

I remember thinking they were turning
tranquil into abominations but upon replaying we don't see them succeed.
Perhaps the abominations were experimenting on the tranquil and we
interrupted them.

Or perhaps they were simply going to kill the Tranquil. We interupted and the Abominations called
for help. That was how I interpreted that scene when I saw it... I never saw a Tranquil turn Abomination.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
I imagine it could be possible in theory to convince a spirit to merge with a Tranquil and reverse the process that way (and creating an abomination at the same time, but still). Whether it's possible to do without having to merge is difficult to say without knowing how much research has been done on the matter. Perhaps it's even possible to only partially make someone Tranquil so that you could sever the bond to the Fade enough to take away the magic without also making said someone into a true Tranquil. Turn a mage into a mundane, in other words.

Maybe the Rite consists of more then just severing a Mage's connection to the Fade. Maybe it severs a mage's connection AND removes the emotions, dreams and a good chunk of Free Will Intentionally, because former-Mages are much easier to corral and command that way. We don't know who developed that Rite and why: if it was a long time ago then maybe they THOUGHT it was the only way and never bothered to update it with further research, or they intentionally developed it to make compliant shells out of mages.

Wouldn't that be a scandal if it was the case...

Modifié par DreamerM, 29 juin 2011 - 08:53 .

[DreamerM]

EDIT: Double-posting makes the baby Andraste cry...

Modifié par DreamerM, 29 juin 2011 - 08:48 .

[Foolsfolly]

Anders didn't do it on purpose, though. This makes me think Justice didn't do it on purpose either. It just happened. How? Why? We will never know....

I believe Justice isn't attached to the Fade anymore. Which made Justice like the Fade (since Justice is still alive and demons/spirits may need the Fade to survive) which made Justice like a small piece of the Fade in the Mortal realm...

It wasn't a permanent reversal.

Would be fun to experiment however. Let's bring some tranquiled over to the Blackmarsh and see if that area now has a small isolated area that's similar to the Fade and if they revert there!

Maybe the Rite consists of more then just severing a Mage's connection to the Fade

But it does sever the mage from the Fade, where demons and spirits live. Justice was a special case and even then it's unknown if Justice could just jump over to Karl or not. Without that link to the Fade how does a demon get to a tranquiled mage?

[Vit246]

double-posted.

Modifié par Vit246, 29 juin 2011 - 08:51 .

[Foolsfolly]

Or perhaps they were simply
going to kill the Tranquil. We interupted and the Abominations called
for help. That was how I interpreted that scene when I saw it... I never
saw a Tranquil turn Abomination.

Which is very important. What happened before we opened that door is in our minds. It's not like we ask either Tranquil or Abominations what was happening.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I believe Justice isn't attached to the Fade anymore. Which made Justice like the Fade (since Justice is still alive and demons/spirits may need the Fade to survive) which made Justice like a small piece of the Fade in the Mortal realm...

Which raises the Tranquility question again. If Justice is a bit of the Fade in the Mortal world, and it's impossible to seperate Anders from Justice, then, theoretically, Anders doesn't even need his outside connection to the Fade anymore, since he's already got all the Fade he'll ever need.

So what would Tranquility really do to him? Is he immune? Would it kill him? Drive Justice out of him? Turn him into a more typical, mindless Abomination? Would it go off without a hitch? What exactly is the nature of his connection, and what does it mean about the nature of Mages and their attachment to the Fade? 

Foolsfolly wrote...

It wasn't a permanent reversal.

Right, it looked more like a response to Justice's flare of energy, like a hand reaching towards a fire in a cold room.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Would be fun to experiment however. Let's bring some tranquiled over to the Blackmarsh and see if that area now has a small isolated area that's similar to the Fade and if they revert there!

That would be interesting to see... why hasn't anyone tried that?

Foolsfolly wrote...

But it does sever the mage from the Fade, where demons and spirits live. Justice was a special case and even then it's unknown if Justice could just jump over to Karl or not.

Justice didn't try. Heck, Anders sure makes it sound like Justice couldn't leave him now even if he wanted to, and the only way to "free" him would be to die. Though that was never confirmed.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Without that link to the Fade how does a demon get to a tranquiled mage?

I have no idea. I still don't think it's possible. I think we're misunderstanding what happened at the Tower.

[Foolsfolly]

Which raises the Tranquility question again. If Justice is a bit of the Fade in the Mortal world, and it's impossible to seperate Anders from Justice, then, theoretically, Anders doesn't even need his outside connection to the Fade anymore, since he's already got all the Fade he'll ever need.

I don't know if Justice can't separate from Anders or if Justice simply doesn't want to. In Awakening, he clearly states he could leave Kristoff's body if he wished it (and clearly does such). What's stopping him from jumping ship now?

I believe it's his desire that keeps him from leaving Anders. A desire that remains despite all the harm and trouble it causes his 'friend' Anders.

I have no idea. I still don't think it's possible. I think we're misunderstanding what happened at the Tower.

I believe they don't. Tranquiled by their definition lack a connection to the Fade. Thus are immune to possession. Besides, why would a demon want to be in a tranquiled mage? A mage that cannot cast magic?

...why do they want to be in tress....

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Which raises the Tranquility question again. If Justice is a bit of the Fade in the Mortal world, and it's impossible to seperate Anders from Justice, then, theoretically, Anders doesn't even need his outside connection to the Fade anymore, since he's already got all the Fade he'll ever need.

I don't know if Justice can't separate from Anders or if Justice simply doesn't want to. In Awakening, he clearly states he could leave Kristoff's body if he wished it (and clearly does such). What's stopping him from jumping ship now?

I believe it's his desire that keeps him from leaving Anders. A desire that remains despite all the harm and trouble it causes his 'friend' Anders.

The difference could be that Kristoff was already deceased, while Anders is a living host for the Spirit of Justice.

Edit:

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 juin 2011 - 09:40 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think making Orsino an associate of Quentin, a Starkhaven mage, and making him turn into a "super abomination" after Hawke took care of the templars who tried to invade the room, didn't make much sense. I also don't understand why Hawke fought a blood mage at the docks when he was attacking templars to protect the men, women, and children in the Circle of Kirkwall. Was this particular blood mage pro-templar? Was the blood mage deeply offended that Hawke was attacking the templars? If Hawke sides with the mages, he should be fighting the templars - not mages.

That said, wouldn't a pro-mage blood mage Hawke and his blood mage Dalish girlfriend be a better example for mages who want to use blood magic to deal with Circle sanctioned magic-nullifying templars, rather than Orsino's Epic Fail?

For once, I can't believe Gaider when he says that making Orsino a boss makes the mage ending "not the good ending". The way they did Act 3, it isn't a question of Freedom vs. Security, which is what it should've been. It's just a "Here's the good choice, here's the bad, but we messed up the good choice anyway."

Helping the mages is always the good choice. Even Varric makes note of how Hawke saved the mages from a "brutal injustice", and that automatically makes it the good ending.

They didn't pull off the notion of freedom vs. security. It's just..... a mess. All throughout the game, it's just one gigantic mess regarding Mages and Templars.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For once, I can't believe Gaider when he says that making Orsino a boss makes the mage ending "not the good ending". The way they did Act 3, it isn't a question of Freedom vs. Security, which is what it should've been. It's just a "Here's the good choice, here's the bad, but we messed up the good choice anyway."

Helping the mages is always the good choice. Even Varric makes note of how Hawke saved the mages from a "brutal injustice", and that automatically makes it the good ending.

They didn't pull off the notion of freedom vs. security. It's just..... a mess. All throughout the game, it's just one gigantic mess regarding Mages and Templars.

Agreed. But, have you seen the pro-templar side? It's a lolocaust. Varric says we're "protecting our way of life." WHAT?!

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Helping the mages is always the good choice. Even Varric makes note of how Hawke saved the mages from a "brutal injustice", and that automatically makes it the good ending.

This is exactly why I haven't managed to bring myself to be pro-Templar in any of my playthroughs yet. It's taking the side that has all the weapons, all the training, all the discipline and organization against a loosely organized band of barely-trained spell slingers who's only recorse is going to be sacrificing their own blood, flesh, minds and souls in an attempt to not die.

"The Mages are the underdogs" is understating it.  I understand wanting to restore order in Kirkwall, but Annulling the Circle, full of innocent men, women, and children, for the crimes of an Apostate strikes me as like euthanizing your own labordor because a stray mutt bit your kid. It's just not right, and makes you weaker.

Plus, Meredith had ALREADY envoked the Right of Annullment before the Chantry went up. Anders just made her job super-easy (GODDAMNIT ANDERS).

[Rifneno]

Almost forgot...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Exactly, the differences
between spirit and demon are in question. Merrill says they're one in
the same and Justice in Awakening says that demons are spirits that have
been corrupted by their desires.

That gets quoted, by my estimation, 7 times per second on these boards. Rounding down. But no one ever remembers that Justice later clarifies that comment by saying he doesn't know what makes demons as they are. He also says that "such evil angers me, but I do not understand it" indicating that spirits aren't totally one-dimensional representations of a single mental aspect like we think since he's able to feel controllable anger and acts as if he always has and it's no big deal. Anyway, the comment by Justice about demons being corrupted spirits is for all intents and purposes meaningless.