292 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Weredolphins. That's awesome.

Bioware, make this happen, and they all swear oaths of fealty to Merrill. And she uses them against the Templars in the Mage-Templar war!

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I'm still waiting for my OwlBears.

I'm still waiting for Thedas to have a gorilla companion. And sophisticated bears.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine the parts of the world itself have spirits just like the Forest did. The mountains, the skies, the oceans.


Imagine for a moment WereWhales. Frightening thought....

That would be awkward. Imagine, you're in the woods frolicking as usual and then wham, moonlight comes and you're huge and you accidentally land on and squash to death a pair of lovers who finally had gathered the courage to live out their fantasies and do their thing in the open nature and then you sort of lie there on them, flopping around a little until the morning comes.

I would be so embarrassed.

Those poor people..... how could you?

[Foolsfolly]

@ Rifneno:

David Gaider went on record saying she was within her legal rights. Apparently in the absence of a grand cleric, that illusion of checks and balances disappears and one drug addict gets sole authority to call for genocide.

I just want to say the checks and balances broke down long before Anders turned the Grand Cleric into a smear. The Grand Cleric had a job to do, to maintain the balance and make sure those under her were at least sane enough to do their jobs in the case that she gets sick or goes on vacation.

Meredith was clearly insane, so many people say just as much, and the Grand Cleric did nothing.

If one part of the system fails the entire system fails. And the Grand Cleric failed in her duty long before Anders took her out of the picture.

@ MinotaurWarrior:

As a general question to everyone: where do you think Zathrian, the lady of the forest, and the werewolves fit into the grand scheme of possession / abomination?

Good question. I guess the Lady is an abomination since it's a spirit placed in a wolf. Of course, it isn't a spirit from the Fade since Zathrian 'created' the spirit.

...interesting question.

Also just beat Golems of Ammgarak (much shorter than I remembered, still the brothers Dace and the Golem are just as useless as I remembered, especially against the Harvester and its uber minions), the Harvester in Golems is only made up of dead casteless bodies. Just as I thought...back however many pages ago.

...

...now I have to delete a character to continue to Witch Hunt...which I don't even like and does even matter in DA2. But I'm a sticker for these things. I must now beat Witch Hunt.

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pro-templar Hawke tells Anders that they're putting down a revolution, even though the Circle mages had nothing to do with the attack on the Kirkwall Chantry and the mages aren't revolting against Chantry rule but defending themselves against Meredith's invokement of the Right of Annulment, so I don't expect much from the templar scenerio.

As for Varric's comment, I suppose he forgot about the Hero of Ferelden who can come from the Circle of Ferelden, and literally protect "our way of life" from an actual threat, rather than murder an entire population of men, women, and children who aren't responsible for Anders' actions. Along with the two mages who can help the Hero of Ferelden save the world from the ravages of the darkspawn who eat people alive and violate women to propgate their species that literally corrupt everything they touch.

This reminds me of Act I, where I liked Hawke's little jab at Grand Cleric Elthina, when he can credit the Hero of Ferelden for saving the world from the Fifth Blight and not the absentee Maker. It made me feel that Hawke respected my Antivan-ish Surana Warden, who became the most powerful mage in the Andrastian nations after his rise to power as the new and Arl of Amaranthine, forged an alliance with House Dace through the Amgarrak venture, and is now helping Morrigan prepare their son for his Destiny.

I wonder if any of the DLC will follow up on what Anders said, about my Antivan-ish Hawke is the leader the mages have always been waiting for.

First of all, QFT. Well said, good sir. Second, here's another little gem many probably missed: if you have Hawke make that jab at Elthina that you mentioned while Aveline is in the party, she gives friendship just for witnessing it. I'm not usually a fan of hers but Aveline gained a good bit of respect from me for that.

Aveline and Isabela get Friendship points for witnessing Hawke say that to Grand Cleric Elthina.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Foolsfolly wrote...
@ MinotaurWarrior:

As a general question to everyone: where do you think Zathrian, the lady of the forest, and the werewolves fit into the grand scheme of possession / abomination?

Good question. I guess the Lady is an abomination since it's a spirit placed in a wolf. Of course, it isn't a spirit from the Fade since Zathrian 'created' the spirit.

I always thought that she was a Fade spirit of Forestness (the spirit world can't revolve around humans entirely) but you're saying that she was created by Zathrian, and the wiki says, ' This spirit was not taken from across the Fade, but from the forest itself.' So I really don't know what's going on anymore. Maybe she was a spirit of Forestness who long ago became an abomination, bound to the forest, and then Zathrian switched her host somehow?

...now I have to delete a character to continue to Witch Hunt...which I don't even like and does even matter in DA2. But I'm a sticker for these things. I must now beat Witch Hunt.

I enjoyed Witch Hunt purely for the first and last six minutes, but those twelve minutes made it all worth it, imho.

Modifié par MinotaurWarrior, 30 juin 2011 - 01:54 .

[Foolsfolly]

I always thought that she was a Fade spirit of Forestness (the spirit world can't revolve around humans entirely) but you're saying that she was created by Zathrian, and the wiki says, ' This spirit was not taken from across the Fade, but from the forest itself.' So I really don't know what's going on anymore. Maybe she was a spirit of Forestness who long ago became an abomination, bound to the forest, and then Zathrian switched her host somehow?

It sounds an awful lot like Jade Empire, which I don't hate. I actually wish they'd show more spirits that aren't from the Fade. The Fade's interesting, in its own ways, but having differing degrees of spirits from all over Thedas is much cooler.

Although, it's much more confusing. There should be different names. Spirits and Demons from the Fade and something else from the mortal realm. I'm sure someone smarter than I will come up with a fitting name for the spirits of forests, stone, water, and all that noise.

Although I will suggest Aspects.

I enjoyed Witch Hunt purely for the first and last six minutes, but those twelve minutes made it all worth it, imho.

I liked the Firefly references as well. And I found the Tevinter prophet statue chick thing interesting. Too bad it was foreshadowing for a game that isn't DA2. (It may not even be foreshadowing for DA3 at this rate).

[MinotaurWarrior]

I'd really hate it if we ended up with multiple spirit realms. You'd just run into the New World of Darkness problem where you have the Material world, the Shadow, the Gauntlet, Twilight, the three Astral Realms, Stygia, the Underworld, the Primal Wild, the Aether, Pandemonium, Hell, Arcadia, the Hedge, and other Arcadia. It really doesn't take too long before adding more supernatural realms just makes things progressively stupider.

I somehow missed / forgot the firefly references, but agree with you about the Tevinter Prophetess. She's just fascinating, I really hope more is done with her, and she's actually sort of relevant to this topic:

What's the deal with a (presumably human spirit) possessing a statue?

[TEWR]

Phantasm for the good ones, Wraith for the bad ones?


As for Eleni the Statue, she's not a spirit possessing a statue. She's a woman who was turned into a statue by a Magister. The Avvar barbarians in Awakening had the same fate placed upon them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 juin 2011 - 02:51 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

Yeah, so how does that work exactly? I mean, typically I'd think that having your body turned to stone would just kill you, not transform you into a chatty coatrack.

[Vit246]

Ancient Tevinter magic?

[TEWR]

Well, for Eleni this is when the Tevinter Imperium was a force to be reckoned with. As such, they may have had more powerful spells. Since we know very little of Tevinter, both ancient and current, I have no clue how it works.

For now, just assume that it's a very powerful spell. The workings of which we don't know aside from what the Avvar barbarian said. That they were encased in liquid fire or some such.

I don't know, maybe the ancient Tevinters have access to an archaic version of the carbonite equipment from Star Wars and they improved it to make talking statues? =P

[Foolsfolly]

I'd really hate it if we ended up with multiple spirit realms. You'd just run into the New World of Darkness problem where you have the Material world, the Shadow, the Gauntlet, Twilight, the three Astral Realms, Stygia, the Underworld, the Primal Wild, the Aether, Pandemonium, Hell, Arcadia, the Hedge, and other Arcadia. It really doesn't take too long before adding more supernatural realms just makes things progressively stupider.

True.

But we can already point to the Lady to say that there's at least a few non-Fade based spirits. It doesn't mean it has to spiral out of control and every game and book adding another realm until 10 years later it's completely incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't spent 10 years playing and replaying these games.

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, for Eleni this is when the Tevinter Imperium was a force to be reckoned with. As such, they may have had more powerful spells. Since we know very little of Tevinter, both ancient and current, I have no clue how it works.

For now, just assume that it's a very powerful spell. The workings of which we don't know aside from what the Avvar barbarian said. That they were encased in liquid fire or some such.

I don't know, maybe the ancient Tevinters have access to an archaic version of the carbonite equipment from Star Wars and they improved it to make talking statues? =P

I don't think you have to assume. I think it's pretty well stated they had a spell to transform a person into a statue.

Which is such a Tevinter thing to do. Find your enemy, turn him into a statue, and put him in your throne room as a hat rack, forcing that enemy to know what its fate is.

Tevinters, man...they're hardcore.

[Foolsfolly]

That being said, there's no established lore about any other such planes, so they couldn't just add planes all willy-nilly. Though there could possibly be some kind of, corrupted Fade. Tied to darkspawn... Black City... red lyrium. Split from the regular Fade by some Event. Some event which took away the dwarves' connection to the Fade.

I believe there are other places. Didn't Morrigan go 'beyond the Fade'? Likewise Justice says souls pass through the Fade to someplace else when they die.

[TEWR]

Morrigan did indeed say the Eluvian leads to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade.


one of my many guesses? That's where souls go as well. Don't ask me how, as I'm just pulling this out of my ass and have no way to back it up.

edit: Ok, that's implausible even to me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 juin 2011 - 03:41 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think the Eluvian goes to wherever the Elvhen gods were trapped (the other tribe of gods were the Tevinter gods, trapped in the deep roads). I also think the Elvhen gods were corrupted, and made their own Darkspawn, which is what came out of their portal.

I have a lot of silly theories about this stuff.

[DreamerM]

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Though I think my main beef is that Pride Demons that are supposed to be uber-powerful and cunning, but we rarely see them as anything more than Yet Another Monster To Kill in DA2.[/quote]


This. If they're supposed to be so smart, then how come they never, ya know, use those smarts to outsmart us meatbags? Is it because they are Villains who must attack the Player Character? I think it might be....

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Oh, Connor was an abomination. But common perception of what an abomination is that

1) It's a mage possessed by a demon
2) Utterly devoid of humanity

Connor was only halfway there for some reason.[/quote]

So he was HALF an Abomination. Or he was a whole Abomination but only half of one, really.
That makes sense. Wait, no it doesn't.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I think it's by now been confirmed (or vouched for) by others that Tranquil do get abominated in DA:O.[/quote]

It's been confirmed that you can walk in on a group of Abominations surrounding some Tranquil, and if you attack then more Abominations will show up. You kill them all and the Tranquil thank you. I think it's more likely that the Abominations were going to kill the Tranquil, not possess them. You never actually see anyone labeled "tranquil" become possessed.
[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I agree that Anders/Justice doesn't possess Karl. My argument is that it's a spirit/demon's connection to the Fade that could breach the division that the Rite of Tranquility introduces. In Karl's situation it's temporary and he reverts very quickly to being Tranquil--but like you said, Karl isn't possessed. He's exposed to Justice for a brief moment, and it's the spirit's Fade connection that restores him.[/quote]

I agree with this summation. Although I'm not sure if it was Anders's "connection" to Justice that Karl responded to, or just the FACT that Justice was there, manifiesting in his Smite-You-Now, Fade-Energy Spirit glory.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Now we're just arguing semantics.[/quote]

We're arguing terminology, vocabulary, and lore. Some of these terms are very vaguely defined.

I'd be interested to know if Wynne publicised her possession to Irving or the Templars. [/quote]

I don't think she did. She was with us during her last hours in the tower, and we'd have noticed if she was going to mention that. Actually, that Spirit may be another reason she was so eager to get out of the Tower. Heck, I'm pretty open-minded and even I had trouble swallowing that "no, it's a GOOD spirit!" story. Gregior was, at his core, a reasonable man, but I doubt his order would let him tell the difference.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I doubt we'll get everything explained. Even if the mages in the game knew everything there is to know about demons, spirits, possession and the Fade, the writers would just dangle the odd fact before us and giggle as we kept trying to grab them. [/quote]

Those torturers. They take pleasure in our pain.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Uldred summoned his demon during a meeting in the Circle Tower, and that's when things got crazy and Uldred effectively 'ceased to be'.[/quote]

A great loss to the human race, I'm sure.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
So far, Wynne's spirit has proven benign. Apparently she's turning up in Gaider's third DA novel, and in light of DA2 I'll be interested to see if anything develops between her and her spirit.[/quote]

She's going to Tevinter, right? With Shale? That will be interesting.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Perhaps the reason there are so many differences between abominations is because there are so many differences between spirits and demons...and their hosts.[/quote]

So even trying to find the consistencies in their situations is largley pointless. Got it.
But I'll still keep trying.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I wanted to talk to Justice in DA:A about certain things and never got the chance. That annoyed me too.
[/quote]

Look on the bright side, maybe Justice will find another idealistic young mage he can drive to ruin on the cold, hard rocks of reality. Then we might get a chance to talk to him again.

Sigh.

Modifié par DreamerM, 30 juin 2011 - 05:04 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

[quote]DreamerM wrote...

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Oh, Connor was an abomination. But common perception of what an abomination is that

1) It's a mage possessed by a demon
2) Utterly devoid of humanity

Connor was only halfway there for some reason.[/quote]

So he was HALF an Abomination. Or he was a whole Abomination but only half of one, really.
That makes sense. Wait, no it doesn't. [/quote]

He was still in partial control of himself, that's all I'm saying. HOW, I don't know. I already suggested the wording of whatever deal he struck, but I doubt it'll ever be explained. Maybe Connor is just powerful...he does end up acing his Harrowing and going to Tevinter(!) to study, and why in all hell the Circle would allow one of their mages to go to the Imperium where the Templars can't control them I'll never guess. >.<

[quote][quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I think it's by now been confirmed (or vouched for) by others that Tranquil do get abominated in DA:O.[/quote]

It's been confirmed that you can walk in on a group of Abominations surrounding some Tranquil, and if you attack then more Abominations will show up. You kill them all and the Tranquil thank you. I think it's more likely that the Abominations were going to kill the Tranquil, not possess them. You never actually see anyone labeled "tranquil" become possessed.[/quote]

*shrug* Unless you replay the scene or someone puts it on youtube I guess it won't matter then.

[quote]Although I'm not sure if it was Anders's "connection" to Justice that Karl responded to, or just the FACT that Justice was there, manifiesting in his Smite-You-Now, Fade-Energy Spirit glory.[/quote]

Considering that parading him past other Formari in Kirkwall does nothing, I tend to think the manifestation is what done it.

[quote]I don't think she did. She was with us during her last hours in the tower, and we'd have noticed if she was going to mention that. Actually, that Spirit may be another reason she was so eager to get out of the Tower. Heck, I'm pretty open-minded and even I had trouble swallowing that "no, it's a GOOD spirit!" story. Gregior was, at his core, a reasonable man, but I doubt his order would let him tell the difference.[/quote]

I suspect you are right, mostly because of the definition of Spirit Healers (which Wynne is). They allegedly consort with benign spirits for the healing powers, and because of this the templars are said to watch them *very* closely.

[quote][quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
So far, Wynne's spirit has proven benign. Apparently she's turning up in Gaider's third DA novel, and in light of DA2 I'll be interested to see if anything develops between her and her spirit.[/quote]

She's going to Tevinter, right? With Shale? That will be interesting.[/quote]

I'm not positive where it's set, but I got the strong impression it'd be Orlais. So maybe she's just come back from Tevinter.

Or Tevinter never happened. *shrug* Who believes the epilogues anymore, right? :/

[quote][quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Perhaps the reason there are so many differences between abominations is because there are so many differences between spirits and demons...and their hosts.[/quote]

So even trying to find the consistencies in their situations is largley pointless. Got it.
But I'll still keep trying. [/quote]

That's not what I said, but as you like.

In any case, debate is fun even if it does turn out to be pointless.

[quote]
Look on the bright side, maybe Justice will find another idealistic young mage he can drive to ruin on the cold, hard rocks of reality. Then we might get a chance to talk to him again.

Sigh.

[/quote]

I'd rather smack him upside the back of the head than talk to him now, TBH

[maxernst]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

He was still in partial control of himself, that's all I'm saying. HOW, I don't know. I already suggested the wording of whatever deal he struck, but I doubt it'll ever be explained. Maybe Connor is just powerful...he does end up acing his Harrowing and going to Tevinter(!) to study, and why in all hell the Circle would allow one of their mages to go to the Imperium where the Templars can't control them I'll never guess. >.<

I am beginning to think that Connor's situation is not as unusual as we imagined while playing DA:O.  Perhaps it's not that uncommon for people to be only intermittently posessed by demons.  Evelina seems to be another example, and possibly Grace, as well. Maybe if someone is strong enough, the demon can only take full posession when the emotions the demon feeds on spin out of control.  It may be progressive, that the more often the demon takes over, the greater the likelihood that it will not relinquish control.

As to Wynne, was she ever actually posessed?  Judging from Connor's statements (and also some of the later rivalry dialogues of Anders), if you're posessed, not only do you lose complete control, you have no memory of what happens.  I guess the spirit took hold when she was dead and revived her, but is there any evidence that it takes full control of her when she's conscious?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

maxernst wrote...

I am beginning to think that Connor's situation is not as unusual as we imagined while playing DA:O.  Perhaps it's not that uncommon for people to be only intermittently posessed by demons.  Evelina seems to be another example, and possibly Grace, as well. Maybe if someone is strong enough, the demon can only take full posession when the emotions the demon feeds on spin out of control.  It may be progressive, that the more often the demon takes over, the greater the likelihood that it will not relinquish control.

Where do we see Evelina and Grace being intermittently being possessed?

Grace, from my perspective, looked like she finally went off the deep end when she killed Thrask, then used blood magic and went abomination. If she was already possessed before that, arguably she wouldn't have needed blood magic (that being a demonic power).

Evelina gave the impression she might have been possessed for some time before Hawke finally catches up with her, and whips out the 'big guns' when battle ensues.

The boundary between 'mage acting not completely herself' and 'obviously possessed' is nicely blurred. It's supposed to be *really hard* to determine if someone is possessed (unless you use blood magic, thanks Merrill or throw a rock at it if your name is Anders), that's what places like Aeonar are for.

In Connor's case it definitely looked like he was occasionally breaking through, but in others he outright stated the demon had 'pulled back', at least for a moment.

As to Wynne, was she ever actually posessed?  Judging from Connor's statements (and also some of the later rivalry dialogues of Anders), if you're posessed, not only do you lose complete control, you have no memory of what happens.  I guess the spirit took hold when she was dead and revived her, but is there any evidence that it takes full control of her when she's conscious?

All signs point to the spirit being within her (which IMO is enough for a templar to cry 'possession'), but we have not yet seen Wynne's spirit take a dominant role. Thus far her situation seems more symbiotic, or even parasitic. She has a passenger and that passenger is keeping her alive and granting her access to powers beyond her own. We don't know if the spirit is getting anything out of the relationship besides the relationship, and according to Wynne the spirit is weakening/dying by sustaining her.

The upcoming DA novel may reveal more, but so far that's what we have.