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[DreamerM]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Where do we see Evelina and Grace being intermittently being possessed?
The boundary between 'mage acting not completely herself' and 'obviously possessed' is nicely blurred. It's supposed to be *really hard* to determine if someone is possessed (unless you use blood magic, thanks Merrill or throw a rock at it if your name is Anders), that's what places like Aeonar are for.

Which makes me wonder.... if you can smell "demon" in someone's blood like Merril can, or just lob a fireball and see what happens, like Anders does, then why is it so hard to tell if a mage is possessed? Was it Merril's blood magic that gave her the ability to smell demon? Or could anyone "smell demon" if they just knew what to smell for? Heck, seems to me a Mumbari could, potentially, be trained to sniff out blood mages and demons, if that was the case.

And as for Anders's test, considering that Anders himself will just sit there and let you kill him later in the game, the theory that "if there was a spirit in there, it would have protected itself" seems flawed from the outset. Maybe he just meant Demons, but isn't Vengence a demon? Even if Anders (and Justice) are content to let Hawke murderknife them, Vengence should be saying "bother this nonsense."

But I never got the hang of the split personality within the split personality. Anders is also Justice who is also Vengence, so Anders is sometimes Vengence, except he's always Justice, but if Justice IS Vengence now then he's always Vengence, but Anders said oh nevermind, my head hurts.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
In Connor's case it definitely looked like he was occasionally breaking through, but in others he outright stated the demon had 'pulled back', at least for a moment.

Isolde made it sound like it happened whenever violence happened around Conner. "Violence scares him." How this works I don't know.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
All signs point to the spirit being within her (which IMO is enough for a templar to cry 'possession'), but we have not yet seen Wynne's spirit take a dominant role. Thus far her situation seems more symbiotic, or even parasitic. She has a passenger and that passenger is keeping her alive and granting her access to powers beyond her own. We don't know if the spirit is getting anything out of the relationship besides the relationship, and according to Wynne the spirit is weakening/dying by sustaining her.

I agree with this assessment. And I'm of the opinion that Wynne's relationship may be what every mage dreams of when they strike a bargain with a spirit. Wynne gets all the additional power of the Intellignent Abomination with none of the drawbacks. It's too good to be true.

Modifié par DreamerM, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:19 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

DreamerM wrote...

Which makes me wonder.... if you can smell "demon" in someone's blood like Merril can, or just lob a fireball and see what happens, like Anders does, then why is it so hard to tell if a mage is possessed? Was it Merril's blood magic that gave her the ability to smell demon? Or could anyone "smell demon" if they just knew what to smell for?

IMO it's strongly implied that Merrill's blood magic is what gave her the ability. When you speak with Cullen later he says he 'shudders to think' what methods you used to be so sure Keran isn't possessed (kinda funny if the method was Anders ), which further implies the templars have no easy methods of their own. Aeonar, where those touched by blood magic and demons are supposed to be sent (in Ferelden) to test for possession, is on record by the devs as being some sort of trial by fire. Doesn't sound pleasant.

And as for Anders's test, considering that Anders himself will just sit there and let you kill him later in the game, the theory that "if there was a spirit in there, it would have protected itself" seems flawed from the outset. Maybe he just meant Demons, but isn't Vengence a demon? Even if Anders (and Justice) are content to let Hawke murderknife them, Vengence should be saying "bother this nonsense."

Yeah. Anders' test irks me. I suppose it would have been too easy to have Justice/Vengeance be the way he detects another Fade denizen?

But I never got the hang of the split personality within the split personality. Anders is also Justice who is also Vengence, so Anders is sometimes Vengence, except he's always Justice, but if Justice IS Vengence now then he's always Vengence, but Anders said oh nevermind, my head hurts.

Me either. Personally I just think Anders is really really confused and barely knows what he's talking about.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
In Connor's case it definitely looked like he was occasionally breaking through, but in others he outright stated the demon had 'pulled back', at least for a moment.

Isolde made it sound like it happened whenever violence happened around Conner. "Violence scares him." How this works I don't know.

Hm. Forgot that bit. Possibly just a plot convenience to have him run off so the PC could talk with her, Teagan and Jowan without a psychotic child present.

(Much like it's a plot convenience to not have said psychotic child retake the keep if you decide to traipse off to the Circle of Magi.)

I agree with this assessment. And I'm of the opinion that Wynne's relationship may be what every mage dreams of when they strike a bargain with a spirit. Wynne gets all the additional power of the Intellignent Abomination with none of the drawbacks. It's too good to be true.

EXCEPT I'm not sure Wynne ever struck a bargain. She made it sound like the spirit stepped in of its own accord. Perhaps this isn't so...I mean, she almost (or did) die in that moment, and the mind can play funny tricks in moments like those, I'm sure. Spirits/Demons can possess corpses though...Justice did, but Kristoff's soul had long since passed on. Wynne was, we think, freshly dead and still able to be revived according to lore. If the spirit entered her body then it wouldn't have needed a bargain. Perhaps that lack is what prevents it from exerting its will over her, perhaps not, but it's something else to consider.

Unfortunately we have no other similar cases to compare it to.

[DreGregoire]

Three different cases, that have nothing to do with each other.

1. Conner is not completely possessed by the demon, eventually I'm sure he would have been pushed out for good, but when we encounter him we can still save him, if he were already completely possessed then we would have to kill him because there would be no getting back his soul.

2. Vengeance is Justice warped by Anders opinions and beliefs about templars, chantry, and the circle of magi.
Justice isn't a demon, he's a fade spirit (there is no definition of good or bad in spirits because generally they are an idea/concept). When Justice joins with Anders the two become one. This joining causes Justice's need for justice to become all consuming turning into vengeance. I'm not sure this makes him into a demon, I would guess different people in Thedas may view it differently depending on their core beliefs. Certainly seeing Anders glowing blue from the eyes and cracks in his skin would concern many. Justice joining with Anders has made Anders become more focused and determined to make a difference in the world, that can be positive. Justice being impacted by Anders failings has created a seperate entity that is hidden in Anders/Justice's subconsciousness that comes out only when Anders/Justice has lost control of his "emotions" in certain circumstances. I view this ability (glowiness) to be a power that Anders/Justice is not aware he has access to. I like to imagine that Anders will eventually be able to tap into and control this other ability with practice and time.

3. Wynne tells us she has always had a special connection to the good spirits of the fade, she is unique in this as far as we know and when she dies her connection to the good spirits saves her because one gives up his/her fade self for her, the draw back being that the connections means when one dies so does the other.

Conclusion: Using the above three as examples of the norm will do nothing but continue to confuse everybody.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 01 juillet 2011 - 03:13 .

[DreGregoire]

DreGregoire wrote...

Three different cases, that have nothing to do with each other.

1. Conner is not completely possessed by the demon, eventually I'm sure he would have been pushed out for good, but when we encounter him we can still save him, if he were already completely possessed then we would have to kill him because there would be no getting back his soul.

2. Vengeance is Justice warped by Anders opinions and beliefs about templars, chantry, and the circle of magi.
Justice isn't a demon, he's a fade spirit (there is no definition of good or bad in spirits because generally they are an idea/concept). When Justice joins with Anders the two become one. This joining causes Justice's need for justice to become all consuming turning into vengeance. I'm not sure this makes him into a demon, I would guess different people in Thedas may view it differently depending on their core beliefs. Certainly seeing Anders glowing blue from the eyes and cracks in his skin would concern many. Justice joining with Anders has made Anders become more focused and determined to make a difference in the world, that can be positive. Justice being impacted by Anders failings has created a seperate entity that is hidden in Anders/Justice's subconsciousness that comes out only when Anders/Justice has lost control of his "emotions" in certain circumstances. I view this ability (glowiness) to be a power that Anders/Justice is not aware he has access to. I like to imagine that Anders will eventually be able to tap into and control this other ability with practice and time.

3. Wynne tells us she has always had a special connection to the good spirits of the fade, she is unique in this as far as we know and when she dies her connection to the good spirits saves her because one gives up his/her fade self for her, the draw back being that the connections means when one dies so does the other.

Conclusion: Using the above three as examples of the norm will do nothing but continue to confuse everybody.

I think the most important in regards to Wynne and Anders/Justice is that the abilities used in extreme circumstances that some are viewing as the fade spirit taking over could just as easily be seen as the spirit awareness of the combined beings coming to the rescue in the extreme situations. Our own bodies and minds do the same for us. There is much we forget until the rare moments we need that knowledge. Oops I could go on for hours but I won't LOL

[Dean_the_Young]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...


And as for Anders's test, considering that Anders himself will just sit there and let you kill him later in the game, the theory that "if there was a spirit in there, it would have protected itself" seems flawed from the outset. Maybe he just meant Demons, but isn't Vengence a demon? Even if Anders (and Justice) are content to let Hawke murderknife them, Vengence should be saying "bother this nonsense."

Justice can't really be classified a demon in the same sense of Desire and Pride. Despite being corrupted by anger, he still ultimately has the virtue he emcompasses in mind, unlike demons who more than anything want to live in the mortal world. Killing Anders at that point is justice - Anders knows it and Justice/Vengeance knows it, and that is what Justice wants. Not to stay alive.

Agreed. It would be similar to someone who, in the name of justice does an injustice, and allows themselves to be held accountable in order to fulfill justice.

[LobselVith8]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

But I never got the hang of the split personality within the split personality. Anders is also Justice who is also Vengence, so Anders is sometimes Vengence, except he's always Justice, but if Justice IS Vengence now then he's always Vengence, but Anders said oh nevermind, my head hurts.

It confuses me as well. I've read a few theories about it and given it some thought, and I'm starting to lean more on the idea that they are not actually merged as one, but rather that their are two separate personalities are occupying the same space of thought and trying to figure out which thoughts and feelings originate where is exceedingly difficult. Sort of like tearing open a pair of nonstop-bags, scattering the contents all over the floor and trying to determine which nonstop came from which bag.

I think it's confusing because Anders is confused about his symbiosis with Justice as well. He alternates between referring to Justice and himself as one, and referring to Justice as his friend who he corrupted with his emotions, saying he's become a form of Vengeance because it's what he thinks Justice has become. I think the only ones who might understand what's happened to him are the seers of the Kingdom of Rivain or the mages in the Imperium; I'd assume the former because of their tradition of merging with spirits for over a milennia. I think that Anders seems to blame his own emotions for how Justice is when Justice seems as narrowly focused on his ideal of "justice" as he always did. I think what's interesting is how it seems like Anders and Justice speak in unison when the Chantry bomb goes off.

[Foolsfolly]

1. Conner is not completely possessed by the demon, eventually I'm sure he would have been pushed out for good, but when we encounter him we can still save him, if he were already completely possessed then we would have to kill him because there would be no getting back his soul.

What's the evidence for that? Just because we could exorcise the demon? So there must be stages of possession? Never mind that the Desire Demon totally had control over Connor most of the time and had enough power to make a child with little magical knowledge raise an army of undead and slaughter an entire town.

No abomination in the rest of the series showed that much power.

And again Morrigan, Jowan, and Irving say the child can be un-possessed; Morrigan and Irving can say this without even meeting the child. Like it's some how common knowledge that abominations can be undone with a mage, enough lyrium, or some blood magic sacrifice.

[DreamerM]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
 Killing Anders at that point is justice - Anders knows it and Justice/Vengeance knows it, and that is what Justice wants. Not to stay alive.

This is fair enough. But what about Vengence? Why would HE sit quietly when there are still more things he could be killing out of a drive for REVENGE REVENGE REVENGE? Or was he just sitting there digesting the death of the Grand Cleric and couldn't be bothered to actually preserve himself?

And that's the question about Anders's test. If there was a spirit inside, "it would defend itself," except Anders has a spirit inside, and will not defend himself. Even though, by his own logic, no matter how righteously he thinks he deserves the murderknife, he should have no choice but to fight back.

And why can't you tell Cullen that attacking someone is a quick way to learn if they are possessed or not, if it's that simple? If a good jump-scare will do the job, then why is "is so-and-so possessed" so much of a grand mystery? Has no one really tried that? Heck, I still have a hard time getting my head around Saraabas saying that he cannot know if he's corrupted. I can understand OTHER PEOPLE not being able to tell if an exceptionally canny demon has taken up residence in a mage, but shouldn't the mage THEMSELVES be able to tell? How do you not notice the demon squatting in your mind? Especially since, in all other possession cases, the demon has to be invited in one way or another?

As for Merril's test, if a blood mage can detect blood-magic in other mages, then that actually seems like a case for keeping one (very tightly controlled) blood mage around a Tower, for the sake of those times when someone is accused of blood magic but has no proof.

....Actually that's a terrible idea. But still. I'd like to know how "smelling demon" works.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Foolsfolly wrote...

1. Conner is not completely possessed by the demon, eventually I'm sure he would have been pushed out for good, but when we encounter him we can still save him, if he were already completely possessed then we would have to kill him because there would be no getting back his soul.

What's the evidence for that? Just because we could exorcise the demon? So there must be stages of possession? Never mind that the Desire Demon totally had control over Connor most of the time and had enough power to make a child with little magical knowledge raise an army of undead and slaughter an entire town.

No abomination in the rest of the series showed that much power.

And again Morrigan, Jowan, and Irving say the child can be un-possessed; Morrigan and Irving can say this without even meeting the child. Like it's some how common knowledge that abominations can be undone with a mage, enough lyrium, or some blood magic sacrifice.

Overall, I agree with your confusion, but the zombie army thing is irrelevent. None of those were being animated by Conner / The Desire Demon, all of them were just rage, sloth, and hunger demons (presumably loyal to the desire demon) possessing corpses through their own power.

[MinotaurWarrior]

DreamerM wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
 Killing Anders at that point is justice - Anders knows it and Justice/Vengeance knows it, and that is what Justice wants. Not to stay alive.

This is fair enough. But what about Vengence? Why would HE sit quietly when there are still more things he could be killing out of a drive for REVENGE REVENGE REVENGE? Or was he just sitting there digesting the death of the Grand Cleric and couldn't be bothered to actually preserve himself?

Vengeance / Justice knew that you killing Anders was just vengeance for all those killed in the explosion.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

And again Morrigan, Jowan, and Irving say the child can be un-possessed; Morrigan and Irving can say this without even meeting the child. Like it's some how common knowledge that abominations can be undone with a mage, enough lyrium, or some blood magic sacrifice.

Right, the fact that all the mages in your party seem to know this makes me think that this meathod of magical de-possession must be common knowledge. Yet, Anders will say that the Tevinter (yes he's lying at this moment but it could still be true) are the only people who have researched ways to reverse possession, and everybody else just cuts the thing's head off?

So maybe Conner could be saved because he was "possessed" but not "an Abomination" even though Morrigan calls him one. Or maybe Conner was a freak who was possessed in a weird way, but then how come everybody knew about the Fade Feild Trip Rescue tactic? This makes me think that perhaps Conner's is a "usual" possession.

I'm getting tired of pointing out how confused I am.

Modifié par DreamerM, 01 juillet 2011 - 09:54 .

[DreamerM]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...
Vengeance / Justice knew that you killing Anders was just vengeance for all those killed in the explosion.

So Anders's "the spirit will defend themselves" test only works for spirits for whom principle overrides survival instinct. Got it.

Wait, aren't all spirits, good and bad, based on "principle?" It doesn't stop the other ones from fighting for their lives anyway. So how does this work?

Modifié par DreamerM, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:23 .

[DarkAmaranth1966]

To me it comes down to choice, if the mage was able to give informed consent (as Uldred, Merill, Anders and, most others did) then possession cannot be undone and, the mage, will in times of extreme duress, become an abomination (like when attacked) but if the mage could not or did not give informed consent, as Connor being too young to understand and thus incapable of the, it is simple possession and can be reversed in the fade.

[DreamerM]

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

To me it comes down to choice, if the mage was able to give informed consent (as Uldred, Merill, Anders and, most others did) then possession cannot be undone and, the mage, will in times of extreme duress, become an abomination (like when attacked) but if the mage could not or did not give informed consent, as Connor being too young to understand and thus incapable of the, it is simple possession and can be reversed in the fade.

Considering that Conner did, in fact, get something out of the bargain it leads me to believe that he consented to his possession as well. The Demon even talks about keeping Arl Eamon alive as upholding her end, now Conner was
upholding his. Informed or not, he still said yes. I have a hard time believing a demon is obligated to tell you the fine print of the deal before they eat your mind, take over your body and start causing chaos. 

EDIT: Clarifications!

Modifié par DreamerM, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:07 .

[TEWR]

DreamerM wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

And again Morrigan, Jowan, and Irving say the child can be un-possessed; Morrigan and Irving can say this without even meeting the child. Like it's some how common knowledge that abominations can be undone with a mage, enough lyrium, or some blood magic sacrifice.

Right, the fact that all the mages in your party seem to know this makes me think that this meathod of magical de-possession must be common knowledge. Yet, Anders will say that the Tevinter (yes he's lying at this moment but it could still be true) are the only people who have researched ways to reverse possession, and everybody else just cuts the thing's head off?

So maybe Conner could be saved because he was "possessed" but not "an Abomination" even though Morrigan calls him one. Or maybe Conner was a freak who was possessed in a weird way, but then how come everybody knew about the Fade Feild Trip Rescue tactic? This makes me think that perhaps Conner's is a "usual" possession.

I'm getting tired of pointing out how confused I am.

I think the only reason Morrigan knows is because Flemeth may have taught her. Flemeth knows many things about the arcane that no one else does. She may know about this ritual that isn't common knowledge and may have taught Morrigan when she was training her.

Jowan, Irving, and Wynne all came from a single Circle so that may be why. Maybe Ferelden's Circle knew about it or had a book on the subject. Or something.

Side note: For some reason I think Morrigan may be Alistair's half-sister. Don't know why though.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

But I never got the hang of the split personality within the split personality. Anders is also Justice who is also Vengence, so Anders is sometimes Vengence, except he's always Justice, but if Justice IS Vengence now then he's always Vengence, but Anders said oh nevermind, my head hurts.

It confuses me as well. I've read a few theories about it and given it some thought, and I'm starting to lean more on the idea that they are not actually merged as one, but rather that their are two separate personalities are occupying the same space of thought and trying to figure out which thoughts and feelings originate where is exceedingly difficult. Sort of like tearing open a pair of nonstop-bags, scattering the contents all over the floor and trying to determine which nonstop came from which bag.

I think it's confusing because Anders is confused about his symbiosis with Justice as well. He alternates between referring to Justice and himself as one, and referring to Justice as his friend who he corrupted with his emotions, saying he's become a form of Vengeance because it's what he thinks Justice has become. I think the only ones who might understand what's happened to him are the seers of the Kingdom of Rivain or the mages in the Imperium; I'd assume the former because of their tradition of merging with spirits for over a milennia. I think that Anders seems to blame his own emotions for how Justice is when Justice seems as narrowly focused on his ideal of "justice" as he always did. I think what's interesting is how it seems like Anders and Justice speak in unison when the Chantry bomb goes off.

You would think Isabela, the Rivaini daughter of someone who tried to be a Seer (whether she was one is unknown, but Isabela doesn't seem to think so), would know something.

[DreamerM]

DreGregoire wrote..

Conclusion: Using the above three as examples of the norm will do nothing but continue to confuse everybody.

Well then what IS the Norm? Are those mindless fleshbags that commit Suicide by Hawke in droves, are THEY the norm? Sheer numbers would suggest yes.

But then how come some Abominations are

Another Abomination I forgot to mention: Fenriel. He only becomes an abomination if you are a very bad person, so I forgot to put him on this list. In his case, possession didn't make him mindless or into one of those fleshy meat bag monster things, it just makes him evil. He starts tormenting innocent people for the lolz.

Now, I'm confused by this too, because it was Hawke, not Fenriel, who makes the final deal with Torpor. Does Fenriel even know he's possessed, or is he just think "yay, lets get this guy to kill these other guys, what fun!" is how he always was?

And I resent that Fenriel shows, pretty clearly, that sometimes there's no way to tell which mages are possessed vs. which ones are just plain evil. Like Anders, he seems to have no real powers that he didn't have before the possession, it's his personality that changes drastically.

[TEWR]

Torpor could only possess Feynriel when his mind was intact. I think that an intact mage mind allows for the Abomination to not become mindless.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think the only reason Morrigan knows is because Flemeth may have taught her. Flemeth knows many things about the arcane that no one else does. She may know about this ritual that isn't common knowledge and may have taught Morrigan when she was training her.

Of the many unusual things that Morrigan knows, I think this is the only one that is also known by a number of other mages you meet, ones with more conventional edduction. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Jowan, Irving, and Wynne all came from a single Circle so that may be why. Maybe Ferelden's Circle knew about it or had a book on the subject. Or something.

You'd think someone would write a paper about it and send it to the other Circles, in that case. Irving had notes from the meetings that all the First Enchanters have to attend sometimes, so you'd think if he stumbled on some way to reverse a demon possession without killing the host, the other mages would want to know about it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Side note: For some reason I think Morrigan may be Alistair's half-sister. Don't know why though.

Because (spoilers for Stolen Throne) Flemeth told King Cailen she'd save his life in return for a "promise." Cailen then went into Flemeth's hut and stayed there for over four hours. When he emerged he was white and shaking and would not talk about what happened. Flemeth never appeared again.

But Gaider, who wrote the book, did say that Morrigan is not related to Alistair. I don't think we need to worry. I wouldn't be surprised if the king's "promise" was related to Alistair's existence (maybe he promised to screw a certain serving girl someday....or Fiona, if we're going the "Alistair most human-looking half-elf ever" route) but it was probably just another McGuffin that Bioware can pull out just in case we're ever in danger of understanding what the crap is going on.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torpor could only
possess Feynriel when his mind was intact. I think that an intact mage
mind allows for the Abomination to not become mindless.

What do you mean "intact?" we see other mages, like Thrask's daughter Olivia or that one mage at the Docks, who become mindless Abominations despite it seeming like the only thing that's wrong with them is that they are really, really scared.

And really, who wouldn't be scared if they were about to hand over their body to a demon? I know I would be. Even if I did think I had a good reason.

Modifié par DreamerM, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:22 .

[DreamerM]

EDIT: Double posting makes the baby Andraste cry

Modifié par DreamerM, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:22 .

[TEWR]

I'd actually really like for Morrigan to be Alistair's half sister.....



But wait.... that would make the scene where they have sex really weird for female protagonists. And then people would vomit.


So yeah, I'd really like to see Alistair and Morrigan to be siblings.


As for Irving, it's either another thing that makes no sense whatsoever or it's because he's extremely old.

[TEWR]

What do you mean "intact?" we see other mages, like Thrask's daughter Olivia or that one mage at the Docks, who become mindless Abominations despite it seeming like the only thing that's wrong with them is that they are really, really scared.

And really, who wouldn't be scared if they were about to hand over their body to a demon? I know I would be. Even if I did think I had a good reason.

No strain on the mind in any form. Feynriel's mind isn't stressed out any more when Torpor wants to do his possession dance.


I know Connor might bring up a question about how intact his mind was, but we don't know the exact conditions of his possession (which I think should've been shown in the Fade when you go to save him)

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd actually really like for Morrigan to be Alistair's half sister.....

Ew. No. Luke/Leia except grosser. Please no. Please please no.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
As for Irving, it's either another thing that makes no sense whatsoever or it's because he's extremely old.

He's voiced by Steve Blum. Spike Speigel sneers at such concerns as age and mortality.