30 réponses à ce sujet

[Genly]

First of all, this post refers to my first playthrough, which I consider to be my "canon", with no previous knowledge/spoilers and no meta-gaming.

I understand betrayals are an almost integral part of any story and quite effective to evoke strong emotions of players. Which is good in the end, the game felt more immersive. 

But at the end of the game, I got the feeling it was a bit overdone and exaggerated (at least considering my particular choices that you'll figure it out below), which started to took away any desire to be heroic, impact the plot, etc.

Off the top of my head, I can list some betrayals:

• Isabela runs away with the Qunari book, leaving me to deal with the Arishok. Never came back.
• Mage Grace (and other mages) turning to blood magic after I saved them; Thrask, Keran kidnaps my brother after I save/help them.
• Carver was never a fan of myself, but he then actually joined the templars, left Mother alone, etc. Though he redeems himself at the end.
• Merril: made me kill her entire dalish clan.
• Orsino... er, no comments. 
• I romanced Anders, betrayed me when he provoked the situation exactly that I was trying to avoid. He knew all along my "pacifist" nature but used me anyway.
• Last but not least... Zevran, who didn't betrayed my Hawke (quite the contrary), but cheated on my Warden.  Well, that's to be expected considering who he is, but he didin't mention his relationship to the Warden at all (later, I found out that was a bug...?).

So, I understand Hawke is not a conventional hero and things do go wrong, but am I wrong in thinking the betrayals were a bit too far? 

Modifié par Genly, 29 juin 2011 - 06:39 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think one of the themes of DA][ was that, just as everyone is the hero of their own story, everyone is the antagonist of a different story. Isabella spent ~4 years scared that you might find out what she had done, and turn her over to the Qunari to be forced into the Qun. You were a potential antagonist in her story, and so she was an antagonist in yours.

I hope that made sense.

EDIT: a better example would be the many quests in ACT I especially where, depending on your actions, you have to fight different forces depending on your choices. Your allies could have been your enemies if you were on the other side, and visa versa.

Modifié par MinotaurWarrior, 29 juin 2011 - 08:35 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Well, Hawke isn't the flawless knight-in-shining armor. Hawke is very human - mistakes get made, things get overlooked, best laid plans of mice and men, etc.

I could see where things may have felt extreme, but there are a lot of variables to consider. Some things were going to be inevitable - family tragedies and ill will (followed by resolution/redemption), especially. But the situations with Isabela and Merrill have different outcomes, depending on Hawke's interactions with them and some different decisions that could have been made. I think it's with the companions that Hawke has the most sway as far as an outcome - NPCs and much of what happens in Kirkwall is something else entirely. Hawke has to be reactive rather than proactive. So it's rather parallel to real life, I feel - we have some influence over those closest to us, or the ability to change things for them, but with larger events/situations, we may be powerless.

That last bit said...I am not attempting to stir the embers of debate over Hawke's lack of action. Merely making a point about extremes and such.

[Jugo616]

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

[lionalio87]

If you want to say about the betrayal, I think the best betrayal is Sister Petrice betrayed you to escort the Qunari prisoner to his clan just to die and then, all of his clan try to murder you. 2 times, boy, 2 times, excellent betrayal, eh?

[Kaiser Shepard]

Jugo616 wrote...

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

Obvious Merrimancer, and that's coming from one.

As for the betrayals, I find the final ones by Meredith/Orsino to be unnecessary, especially because it could've been such a great way to decide which of them returns in the sequel.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 29 juin 2011 - 12:56 .

[Hatchetman77]

lionalio87 wrote...

If you want to say about the betrayal, I think the best betrayal is Sister Petrice betrayed you to escort the Qunari prisoner to his clan just to die and then, all of his clan try to murder you. 2 times, boy, 2 times, excellent betrayal, eh?

That quest made me feel betrayed by the developers.  Even if I haded the mage over they attack me.  Talk about choices not mattering...

[Gabey5]

Genly wrote...



[*]Carver was never a fan of myself, but he then actually joined the
templars, left Mother alone, etc. Though he redeems himself at the end.

how does carver becoming a Templar a betrayal ? he wanted a life of his own.. lol "leaving mother"

he said he wouldn't turn you in and he didn't

Modifié par Gabey5, 29 juin 2011 - 02:44 .

[Huntress]

Well only one who left Myhawke was Sebastian, did he betrayed hawke? not sure he was/is an idiot, he didn't have any thought of his own and when it did, was all about the makers will..

May the maker never see his wife face on you're belt sebastian, am sure he won't like that .. lol!

Carver if made templar just want to make a name for himself, I can't call that betrayal when meredith didn't know Carver sister was a mage.

[LobselVith8]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

Obvious Merrimancer, and that's coming from one.

As for the betrayals, I find the final ones by Meredith/Orsino to be unnecessary, especially because it could've been such a great way to decide which of them returns in the sequel.

I know people who dislike Merrill immensly who feel the same way. The clan committed suicide by Hawke. Trying to murder Hawke because Keeper Marethari was foolish enought to let a powerful demon inside her because she speculated something about what Audacity planned to achieve with the newly restored Eluvian, and then she isn't going to tell anyone about it until long after the fact?

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

Jugo616 wrote...

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

That's right!  She only consorted with a demon and was obsessed with some stupid magic mirror!  They deserved to die because Merrill is cute!  Anders should have blown them up too!

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Genly wrote...

• Last but not least... Zevran, who didn't betrayed my Hawke (quite the contrary), but cheated on my Warden.  Well, that's to be expected considering who he is, but he didin't mention his relationship to the Warden at all (later, I found out that was a bug...?).

It's a confirmed bug. None of Zevran's dialogue has been fixed by the latest patch, despite the issues being pointed out. I can't remember how they came about, but some of them seem to be flag issues originating in DA:O, not just DA2, which means a fix is unlikely to solve everyone's problems. :/

So, I understand Hawke is not a conventional hero and things do go wrong, but am I wrong in thinking the betrayals were a bit too far? 

DA:O betrayals:

Howe vs the Couslands
Bhelen vs his siblings
Jowan vs the Mage PC
Uldred vs the Circle
Loghain vs Cailan/Ferelden, then framing the Wardens
Anora vs the Warden (if you don't agree to crown her)
Zevran vs the Warden (if you don't get his approval up)
Warden vs Alistair (at the Landsmeet, in some play-throughs, for a given definition of betrayal)
Morrigan vs Warden via Flemeth

...etc.

I kind of expect betrayal in Bioware games.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 30 juin 2011 - 03:48 .

[Ox_Mox]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

That's right!  She only consorted with a demon and was obsessed with some stupid magic mirror!  They deserved to die because Merrill is cute!  Anders should have blown them up too!

They died because they attacked me for defending myself from a demon.  Merril didn't force them to die nor does she betray Hawke.  Merrill's plans obviously helped set up the situation but ultimately the clan were responsible for their own deaths.

[rwscissors702]

Ox_Mox wrote...

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

That's right!  She only consorted with a demon and was obsessed with some stupid magic mirror!  They deserved to die because Merrill is cute!  Anders should have blown them up too!

They died because they attacked me for defending myself from a demon.  Merril didn't force them to die nor does she betray Hawke.  Merrill's plans obviously helped set up the situation but ultimately the clan were responsible for their own deaths.

Suicide by Champion.

[Genly]

@MinotaurWarrior and @whykikyouwhyYes, it does make sense, considering the type of story/characters involving Hawke, along with some of my choices. Without debating again the "too non-proactive Hawke", I guess I miss the good, hero character.

lionalio87 wrote...

If you want to say about the betrayal, I think the best betrayal is Sister Petrice betrayed you to escort the Qunari prisoner to his clan just to die and then, all of his clan try to murder you. 2 times, boy, 2 times, excellent betrayal, eh?

Yes, Sister Petrice too.

Gabey5 wrote...

how does carver becoming a Templar a betrayal ? he wanted a life of his own.. lol "leaving mother" 

he said he wouldn't turn you in and he didn't 

Hmm, well, maybe betrayal was too harsh. It was just a shock to find out he joined the very organization Hawke and our sister had to hid from... and being unavailable as a party member for the next 2 acts. 

And about Merril, I see you guys point. I accepted her quest thinking I could convince her to not go along or to find a different solution. While the Keeper/clan members were also foolish, it did make me feel bad for killing them all regardless... and all because a stupid mirror to begin with. >.>

Modifié par Genly, 30 juin 2011 - 08:27 .

[Genly]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

DA:O betrayals:

Howe vs the Couslands
Bhelen vs his siblings
Jowan vs the Mage PC
Uldred vs the Circle
Loghain vs Cailan/Ferelden, then framing the Wardens
Anora vs the Warden (if you don't agree to crown her)
Zevran vs the Warden (if you don't get his approval up)
Warden vs Alistair (at the Landsmeet, in some play-throughs, for a given definition of betrayal)
Morrigan vs Warden via Flemeth

...etc.

I kind of expect betrayal in Bioware games.

Hmm, I see. I guess in DA:O I felt like I had more control on how people would react to me, even if ilusionary. Alistair is a drunken fool though.

But I guess I need to prepare myself psychologically for ME3... >.<

[DreamerM]

The betrayals are exactly why I think Act 3 should have BEGUN with "The Last Straw" and the choosing sides, rather then ending with it. That bit of gameplay was intense and emotional. And we should have had the whole act to work out who was going to stay on my side and who was going to change sides while I try and hold the city together and learn more about BOTH, a-la Bahlen and Harrowmont.

But nah.

[Foolsfolly]

The betrayals are exactly why I think Act 3 should have BEGUN with "The Last Straw" and the choosing sides, rather then ending with it. That bit of gameplay was intense and emotional.

That interesting.

It also would help lessen the fact that there's no epilogues in the game since we'd have a much better idea of what happened to the companions and other NPCs.

[whykikyouwhy]

Genly wrote...

Hmm, well, maybe betrayal was too harsh. It was just a shock to find out he joined the very organization Hawke and our sister had to hid from... and being unavailable as a party member for the next 2 acts. 

I haven't done a playthrough with Carver (yet), but I think the embracing of the Templars is actually a nice touch. He's the kid brother who just lost his twin and has been around magic all of his life. He's surly and uneasy, and maybe, just maybe, he's trying to do something to make him feel powerful (not omnipotent) versus powerless. A bit of as rebellious streak perhaps. (I also don't have brothers or younger siblings, so I can only gather this might be common behavior based on TV shows. )

I wasn't fond of the sibling absense during Act 2. It makes sense in a story perspective - you need to have Hawke focus less on family (aside from Leandra) and be more involved in Kirkwall and the companions, but it would have been nice to have Bethany around, considering how kick-*ss she becomes by the end of Act 3.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...
That interesting.

It also would help lessen the fact that there's no epilogues in the game since we'd have a much better idea of what happened to the companions and other NPCs.

Right. Maybe we get a "final celebration" type scene on Isabella's ship, where we can actually talk to everybody one last time like we could if we survived the Archdemon, learn their plans for the future and how they feel about what we just did.

And this way, instead of some arbitrary tracking-down runaways mission or...I don't know, the other stuff we did in Act 3, we're actually dealing with the crisis as it's unfolding.

For example, Anders blows up Chantry, Meredith has him arrested and schedules his (very very public) execution. We get to decide if we're going to let it happen, kill him ourselves (justice done without the propaganda),  or free him and have him with us for the rest of the game and beyond.

Then it can get more complicated, with situations like you free Anders, but in retaliation Meredith hangs ten mages she calls "co-conspirators." And you can come up with ways to sabotogue the execution, in order to make his escape as much of a public spectacle as possible.

That's what should have been there: a landsmeet-esque Public Opinion tracker, where you can influence whether the citizens support the Templar or the Mages depending on your actions.

So many things could have been done here. Like returning home to find Orana dead, Bodhain dead, and either Templar tearing appart your house looking for "Mage Underground" fugitives, or a band of Blood Mages out to scare a little compassion into you. Then Isabella's ship would become your new safehouse. And you'd have to be careful in the DAY, as opposed to at night, since the guards have orders to apprehend you if they see you and Aveline cannot sheild you from this one.

Or Fenris. Fenris sides with the Templars, until Denarius comes back with his Thedan Equivalent of Diplomatic Immunity and demands his "lost property" back from the guard. Hawke gets to decide to hand him over for a reward or defend him against Denarius, after which he will change sides for you.

Or Aveline, who won't desert her guard post but depending on your treatment of her in act 3 she will either desert it to help you, stay in it (on your orders) to protect the civilians, or support the calls for your arrest.

Another moment that should have been much bigger was when Meredith calls for the Champion's execution. ooh, they could have done some delicious stuff with that, if only given more time...

I hope you've enjoyed this "if wishes were fishes" fish-fry.

[Jugo616]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

That's right!  She only consorted with a demon and was obsessed with some stupid magic mirror!  They deserved to die because Merrill is cute!  Anders should have blown them up too!

They didn't died because of Merill consorting with the demon. They didn't die because Merill wanted to restore the mirror. They died because my Havke shot lightning at them. Why? Because they were a bunch of morons whos' leader wanted to play Naruto. If anything it is Maretharis' fault the clan died - no one asked her to interfere. Merill was going to do her busines and go home. She even asked Havke to be a safeguard and kill her if anything goes wrong.

I even have a theory why dalish have no halla(spelling?) in DA2 - one evening all the smart members of the clan jumped on the backs on their magic elks and rode away into sunset leaving all the morons and the idiots to cope for themselves.
Merill was left behind only because there was not enough mounts.

[Sajuro]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

That's right!  She only consorted with a demon and was obsessed with some stupid magic mirror!  They deserved to die because Merrill is cute!  Anders should have blown them up too!

She had been consorting with the demon and restoring the eluvian before Hawke was in her life, if you didn't want to follow her questline don't do her companion quests and if you don't want to kill her clan then say "yeah. it was Merrill's fault"

[sphinxess]

Jugo616 wrote...

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Merill didnt made you do ANYTHING. The clan was a bunch of idiots who brought their doom upon themselves.

That's right!  She only consorted with a demon and was obsessed with some stupid magic mirror!  They deserved to die because Merrill is cute!  Anders should have blown them up too!

They didn't died because of Merill consorting with the demon. They didn't die because Merill wanted to restore the mirror. They died because my Havke shot lightning at them. Why? Because they were a bunch of morons whos' leader wanted to play Naruto. If anything it is Maretharis' fault the clan died - no one asked her to interfere. Merill was going to do her busines and go home. She even asked Havke to be a safeguard and kill her if anything goes wrong.

I even have a theory why dalish have no halla(spelling?) in DA2 - one evening all the smart members of the clan jumped on the backs on their magic elks and rode away into sunset leaving all the morons and the idiots to cope for themselves.
Merill was left behind only because there was not enough mounts.

The clan was so inbred they even had to borrow a mage child  from another clan to serve as the keeper first.

[Cutlass Jack]

Genly wrote...

First of all, this post refers to my first playthrough, which I consider to be my "canon", with no previous knowledge/spoilers and no meta-gaming.

I understand betrayals are an almost integral part of any story and quite effective to evoke strong emotions of players. Which is good in the end, the game felt more immersive. 

But at the end of the game, I got the feeling it was a bit overdone and exaggerated (at least considering my particular choices that you'll figure it out below), which started to took away any desire to be heroic, impact the plot, etc.

Off the top of my head, I can list some betrayals:

• Isabela runs away with the Qunari book, leaving me to deal with the Arishok. Never came back.
  
• Mage Grace (and other mages) turning to blood magic after I saved them; Thrask, Keran kidnaps my brother after I save/help them.
  
• Carver was never a fan of myself, but he then actually joined the templars, left Mother alone, etc. Though he redeems himself at the end.
  
• Merril: made me kill her entire dalish clan.
  
• Orsino... er, no comments. 
• I romanced Anders, betrayed me when he provoked the situation exactly that I was trying to avoid. He knew all along my "pacifist" nature but used me anyway.
  
• Last but not least... Zevran, who didn't betrayed my Hawke (quite the contrary), but cheated on my Warden.  Well, that's to be expected considering who he is, but he didin't mention his relationship to the Warden at all (later, I found out that was a bug...?).

So, I understand Hawke is not a conventional hero and things do go wrong, but am I wrong in thinking the betrayals were a bit too far? 

You do get betrayed alot but some of those you listed were not quite betrayals. Merril didn't make you kill her clan, for example. Not only was she absolutely trying to avoid fighting them, but the fight is avoidable anyway. Didn't have to fight them at all. Isabela left you mainly because you didn't have her friend/rivalry meter up high enough to get her Questioning Beliefs quest. She can absolutely be swayed to come through for you. And Zev, as you noted was a bug.

(For future reference on your next playthroughs)


But yes, there was an awful lot of stupidity among the people you would normally side with. Like the 'neutral' faction kidnapping your sibling when they could have just asked for your help. Or every single mage attacking you in the endgame after you took their side.

A few of the Betrayals were fun though, and even adorable. Isabela betraying me in the fade was nothing but amusing. Both her and Merril's betrayals in that part were great just for the apology dialogues after.

[Genly]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You do get betrayed alot but some of those you listed were not quite betrayals. Merril didn't make you kill her clan, for example. Not only was she absolutely trying to avoid fighting them, but the fight is avoidable anyway. Didn't have to fight them at all. Isabela left you mainly because you didn't have her friend/rivalry meter up high enough to get her Questioning Beliefs quest. She can absolutely be swayed to come through for you. And Zev, as you noted was a bug.

Yeah, in my second playthorugh things went much more smoothly, even while still trying to avoid the other choices/decisions spoilers. I can see some people not agreeing with the betrayal word, English is not my first language, so maybe I should have listed disappointments for some of those.

A few of the Betrayals were fun though, and even adorable. Isabela betraying me in the fade was nothing but amusing. Both her and Merril's betrayals in that part were great just for the apology dialogues after.

Indeed. isabela really grew on me in my second playthrough, when I actually used her / interacted more. 

EDIT: Plus, I'm one of the few DA players who absolutely love the fade, ever since my first DAO character (and "cannon", profile pic), a mage. 

Modifié par Genly, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:12 .