105 réponses à ce sujet

[TheSt3alth]

So I've played through Arrival again, and it's made me wonder if the Reapers were ever going to turn up.

Firstly, Shepard was out for two days, we don't know how long the process takes, but he may have been at least partially affected. Before he was out, he did not have any 'evidence' of any Reaper invasion. By the end, the only evidence was the vision he saw. It could be said that a vision is enough evidence, going by the beacon on Eden prime, but remember this is a Reaper beacon. It can control what you see and believe when you see that vision.

I also expected the Reaper fleet to show up by the end, but there was never any actual sight of them. They could have quite easily showed up, and blasted that asteriod into fragments, minimising damage and saving the Mass Relay.

The lack of choices is something that annoyed me about this DLC, but then I thought about it. The whole point of Indoctrination is that the subject is not given a choice in his actions, he is controlled by the Reapers. Shepard is being controlled, and does not have a voice over how the situation is delt with. It is the Reaper's will that he blows up this Relay, so he will.

Which leads to the question: why? Why do the Reapers want Shepard to destroy this Relay? Well all we know so far is that a war between Human and Batarians has been hinted at because of this event. We know that Reapers are specifically targeting Humans, so it is logical to assume that Reapers will want them as weak as possible.

My guess is that there is an overarching reason, a bigger reason, however. Perhaps this relay, being 'able to connect to anywhere in the galaxy' is significant. A rally point to strike back at the Reapers? They were pretty big on isolating the Protheans when they attacked: they shut down all the mass relays, so they couldn't rally for a counter attack. Again, I'm just speculating, it may be another more significant reason.

P.S Admiral Hacket's words at the end of the DLC make me wonder, too. He questions whether the Reapers were really a threat, and Shepard responds with absolute certainty. Hacket believes him, only because Shepard said so. It's possible Shepard was so certain because he was being controlled. Hacket even doesn't read the evidence, out of belief for Shepard, which leads me to believe that Shepard may not have even had any evidence. Maybe the datapad was even blank. The way the camera followed the data pad makes me think it's pretty significant.

Anyway, thoughts?

Modifié par TheSt3alth, 29 juin 2011 - 03:29 .

[Commander_Adept]

This is a very valid argument, I slightly wondered if he had been indoctrinated as well during that time.

I'm getting the feeling that the Reapers wanted Shepard to seem absolutely nutso to the rest of the community (Their invasion of Earth early in Mass 3 slightly blows up this theory). I mean, think about it, a human who is already known for spreading wild sentient space ship rumors destroys 300k Batarians in the name of the galaxy by BLOWING UP A RELAY. The Reapers likely wouldn't give a crap that the Batarians are dead and make it seem like Shepard just did it because he's crazy.

I just hope that the whole Reaper invasion thing isn't a freaking dream

[SandTrout]

I've been wondering about weather Shepard's cumulative time in the presence of Reaper technology might start to indoctrinate him for some time. It really wouldn't surprise me if BW went either way with it.

My guess is that there is an overarching reason, a bigger reason, however. Perhaps this relay, being 'able to connect to anywhere in the galaxy' is significant. A rally point to strike back at the Reapers? They were pretty big on isolating the Protheans when they attacked: they shut down all the mass relays, so they couldn't rally for a counter attack. Again, I'm just speculating, it may be another more significant reason.

The idea that the Alpha Relay connects to every other relay is a common misunderstanding about its nature. The Mass Relay network is so interconnected that every relay is connected to every other relay by virtue of being able to be reached via a combination of conventional FTL and Relay jumps in a short period of time. Essentially, there are no isolated sections of the relay network, similar to how a computer connects to any server on the internet. The network signal passes through multiple relay points as it travels between the two points, but there is not a direct hardware link between the user's computer and the server.

The Alpha Relay is just the first relay that the Reapers can reach via conventional FTL, and through it they gain access to the entire network. That section of space that Arrival takes place in is not a multi-relay system, so the Reapers must travel to the next nearest Relay, which, consider the scale of galactic travel with conventional FTL, is weeks or months away.

[Chewin]

TheSt3alth wrote...
Firstly, Shepard was out for two days, we don't know how long the process takes,

Yes we do. It takes up to weeks/moths to fulfill.

[Mathy16]

It were probably early stages of indoctrination; seeing visions and stuff but no, Shepard was not completely indoctrinated otherwise he wouldn't have stopped delayed the arrival...

Modifié par Mathy16, 29 juin 2011 - 05:30 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Harbinger did say Shepard's mind would be his... but I'm not sure if visions themselves count as early stages of indoctrination... wasn't it usually head-games like noises?

[Smeelia]

It's a good question, it is possible that Shepard could have been indoctrinated.  I don't really think Shepard has been indoctrinated but mostly because of metagaming reasons and the way the storyline has been going.

It seems odd that Shepard wasn't kept in the same room as Object Rho (unless they moved you after indoctrination was finished), maybe the range is far enough that it works anywhere in the base but it still seems odd.

SandTrout wrote...

The idea that the Alpha Relay connects to every other relay is a common misunderstanding about its nature. The Mass Relay network is so interconnected that every relay is connected to every other relay by virtue of being able to be reached via a combination of conventional FTL and Relay jumps in a short period of time.

Part of the reason the Alpha Relay was so important was that it could connect directly to the Citadel and a few other important strategic locations (presumably because it's the Reaper's backup plan).  It couldn't go to every relay but a straight jump to the Citadel would be very useful for the invasion.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Harbinger did say Shepard's mind would be his... but I'm not sure if visions themselves count as early stages of indoctrination... wasn't it usually head-games like noises?

I don't remember Saren mentioning voices in his head so it's possible that "lighter" indoctrination doesn't include noticeable voices (it's also possible that it just didn't come up). Another possibility is that Shepard is the only one that can actually hear Harbinger (I don't know if anyone in the game really comments on it, maybe we're the only ones that hear it).

[Dean_the_Young]

I've mused about the possibility of Shepard's indoctrination being a plot point for ME3.

[TheSt3alth]

Smeelia wrote...
Another possibility is that Shepard is the only one that can actually hear Harbinger

Wow, you know, that's a very viable theory. The collectors aren't able to speak, either. they just make those strange bug noises. It's probable, in that case, that whenever Harbinger takes over a collector, he speaks to Shepard through his mind.

[Skeebo06]

You had a choice in Arrival. Let the timer run out, boom Reapers hit the system, you die and the galaxy is lost.

You have just as much choice as you did when you fought Saren/Sovereign at the end of ME1.

You're the hero, and while ME2 introduce the idea that you might be able to fail if you didn't do enough, in order to win you have HAD to do certain things throughout the game.

So no, I don't think that Shepard was indoctrinated, and I hope that this doesn't all turn into some dream scenario.

BioWare told us at the very beginning, while we get to make decisions on the way, this is a journey to save the galaxy.

Modifié par Skeebo06, 29 juin 2011 - 08:32 .

[Rip504]

Shepard is immune to indoctrination.(IMO)  I did have one playthrough where I stayed on the rock until it hit the relay... Critical Mission Failure. Lol.


And I also found this for you.   www.youtube.com/watch

[Destroy Raiden_]

My theory on arrival the more I think about it is yes shep was indoctrinated or even hacked into doing that job and the reapers never intended to come through that particular relay to Earth. They gave Kensen misinformation on it or she simply misinterpreted it sense she was here to do a project pertaining to the relay anyhow and the beacon showed them going through a mass relay.

The key is the relay has no unique features on it there is no way to tell the relay the reapers showed to any relay in the galaxy you can't link them up visually and we know the galaxy as a whole has a limited knowledge of where all the relays are and to where they bounce to.

According to lore the relays turn to face the relay they wish to link up with so say the reapers know of one we don't (and why wouldn't they?) they could cue it between 3 relays Illos, Arrival's, and Earths so they show Kensen and Shep the vision both thing it's the Arrival relay sense that's right down the street from Earths but what they don't know is the reapers are going to turn theirs to Earths anyhow completely not needing Arrivals. Shep is made to blow up the arrival relay and will cause a huge issue with Earth taking him not only out of the reaper hunt but he'll be on Earth when the reapers show to eat everyone.

I also think Arrival is key in suggesting other things and hinting at Cerberus turning. I think our dear friend Hackett is actually a Cerberus high agent Tim became indoctrinated by the reapers sometime near the end of 2 possibly during the O4 mission and his change of heart and he tells Hackett to send someone near Arrival's relay for important reaper info (but shep is busy killing collectors) he sends Kensen or she volunteers she does most of her job drops off shep is sent in. Tim knew the reaper artifact indoctrinated kensen and will do so to shep.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 30 juin 2011 - 03:39 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Smeelia wrote...

I don't remember Saren mentioning voices in his head so it's possible that "lighter" indoctrination doesn't include noticeable voices (it's also possible that it just didn't come up). Another possibility is that Shepard is the only one that can actually hear Harbinger (I don't know if anyone in the game really comments on it, maybe we're the only ones that hear it).

Good point... never thought of that.  Then again, how was Harbinger able to appear in front of Shepard later on in a Collector General/Reaper virtual form?  One possible reason for no one else commenting on Harbinger was that (at the time), the henchmen were indoctrinated aswell, so they may not have cared that Harbinger was speaking to Shepard.

To your credit, the lady you rescued from Batarian prison was against the Reapers all the way up to the critical moment of Shepard seeing the artifact... so it's definitely possible that something is becoming wrong with Shepard.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 30 juin 2011 - 04:42 .

[Smeelia]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

My theory on arrival the more I think about it is yes shep was indoctrinated or even hacked into doing that job and the reapers never intended to come through that particular relay to Earth. They gave Kensen misinformation on it or she simply misinterpreted it sense she was here to do a project pertaining to the relay anyhow and the beacon showed them going through a mass relay.

It could well have been an elaborate plot by the Reapers, they could have guessed that Shepard would be able to escape and complete the project so they made it seem that their plan was the opposite of what it really was.  It could have been the plan to indoctrinate Shepard with Object Rho, destroy the system (for political or tactical reasons) and possibly destroy Object Rho (maybe to prevent it being studied).

It wasn't really that difficult for Shepard to escape so it could well have been part of the plan.  They could also just have been incompetent or underestimated Shepard, higher levels of indoctrination can lessen effectiveness so it's more likely they'd make mistakes.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Good point... never thought of that.  Then again, how was Harbinger able to appear in front of Shepard later on in a Collector General/Reaper virtual form?

Holographic type systems are pretty common in Mass Effect so it could have been one of those, I'm not sure why they'd have one that can generate a large image over a landing pad but there may be a reason (possibly to create guidance information for incoming ships, warnings and so on).  Still, it's also possible that Shepard was the only one that could see it and that's just the way Shepard's mind interpreted it (so that it was still convincing and realistic without having to admit having been indoctrinated).

[jtsherrard]

The lack of control about destroying the relay was a simple matter. No alternative in Shepard's mind. why wouldn't he want to destroy it if the 300000 batarians would die whether by reapers or an explosion. They still die no matter what. Ultimately, its scripting requirements. How could you be on trial in ME3 if you chose not to destroy a mass relay? Cerberus wasn't a large enough infraction to charge Shepard since not once did he fight against the Alliance or Council (s/he could even remain a Spectre under the right circumstances) in ME2 and even helped the Alliance on Horizon and (possibly) on some of the side missions.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Smeelia wrote...

Holographic type systems are pretty common in Mass Effect so it could have been one of those, I'm not sure why they'd have one that can generate a large image over a landing pad but there may be a reason (possibly to create guidance information for incoming ships, warnings and so on).  Still, it's also possible that Shepard was the only one that could see it and that's just the way Shepard's mind interpreted it (so that it was still convincing and realistic without having to admit having been indoctrinated).

Definitely possible, though I would say the fact that the hologram changes depending on when you experience it (before or after the suicide mission) gives credence to it not being an illusion because Shepard has never seen either of them before (The Collector General and Harbinger).

[The Twilight God]

He was not indoctrinated. He was in the process of being indoctrinated which allowed him to see Harbinger. If he was indoctrinated he wouldn't have completed his mission.

[AlexMBrennan]

You're assuming that the Reapers didn't want Shepard to blow up the relay (why else would they leave an early warning system with an accurate countdown lying around? Or, for that matter, why would they leave a working IFF lying around?)

[The Twilight God]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You're assuming that the Reapers didn't want Shepard to blow up the relay (why else would they leave an early warning system with an accurate countdown lying around? Or, for that matter, why would they leave a working IFF lying around?)

I'm not assuming anything. Indoctrination does not trick people into doing things. It makes them want to serve the reapers willingly. What you propose is that ONLY Shepard was indoctrinated and everyone else was not. That would be absurd. It would also be game over. Shepard's on their side now.

Why the artifact was there in the first place? I don't know. It seemed like the reaper equivalent of the prothean beacon. Some kind of communications device. But again, I'm not sure.



The IFF was software stored within the reaper. The way you pick it up in the game was pretty lame. "Oh, there it is! Got it", but I think that was laziness on someone's part to provide a proper cut scene. The entire Derelict Reaper seemed like a lazy last minute idea. You have a reaper. You go inside an actual reaper. And all you do is shot through a bunch of husks like some resident evil bonus level and blow it up? No secrets revealed. No actual insight into how indoctrination works on technological level. No new technologies, no clue as to who built the weapon that put the reaper their in the first place or logs concerning past extinction cycles. Hell, not even a gloating reaper talking smack as you escape its bowels. Nothing. End of unexpected rant. 

Modifié par The Twilight God, 30 juin 2011 - 09:59 .

[Raven4030]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You're assuming that the Reapers didn't want Shepard to blow up the relay (why else would they leave an early warning system with an accurate countdown lying around? Or, for that matter, why would they leave a working IFF lying around?)

They left a working IFF laying around because it was a trap. It's just like in Star Wars where they let Leia, Luke, and Han escape the Death Star so they could track the Millenium Falcon to the Rebel Base, a plan that also let them get away with vital plans that enabled the Rebel forces to destroy the death star in the first place. Same deal: Reapers allowed the IFF to be taken so that they could track the Normandy SR-2 and capture its crew, but just like the Empire they underestimated their enemy and instead enabled their own destruction.

The beacon is a point of reference. Galaxy is big, and the stars change positions dramatically over the course of 50,000 years (anybody hear the story a while back about how horoscopes are are screwed up and have been for a while due to the changing position of the stars relative to earth?), this is why Mass Relays have their own orbit around the stars, so that they will still link the same star system to the same place. Furthermore, until the 'Alpha mode' of the Alpha relay is activated, it resembles every other secondary relay in the galaxy, so the Reapers would have no way of picking it out save for the beacon which was planted there in case they needed their 'Plan B' (or C in this case, actually if you count Sovereign's attack on the Citadel as Plan B and the Collectors as Plan C, then the Alpha Relay was Plan D... wow, the Reapers are really bad at this galactic extinction thing aren't they?).

When Dr. Kenson's team stumbled upon the beacon the Reapers probably figured they could solve two problems at once, seems kind of silly that Kenson would go out and get herself captured when the project was already finished, so either that's simply bad writing or she was indoctrinated and allowed herself to be captured with the Reapers hoping Shephard would show up, be lured there, captured, and the Reapers would blow him up with the Project on their way to destroy earth. Even if Shephard didn't show up, they've lost nothing and can just nuke the project on their way out of the system.

I mean, really, if the Reapers wanted to blow up the Alpha Relay they could have just ordered the members of the project to do it and not allow Shephard to become involved in the first place.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Plus, if Shepard were indoctrinated, he wouldn't have delayed stopped the Reapers from coming through the Alpha Relay.

If you let the time run out and allow them to come through the Relay... critical mission failure.

[Bogsnot1]

No, he wasnt. Simply because its DLC, and if you dont have the DLC, the Alliance brings you to Earth for trial for some other reasons, instead of mass murder.
Thus, if he was to be indoctrinated in the DLC, it means there will have to be some other mechanism in game to indoctrinated him so there isnt a "WTF BIOWARE?!?!?!" reaction from people who dont have Arrival.

[Han Shot First]

Indoctrination is a slow process.

Shepard is told in ME1 by one of the captured Salarians on Virmire, that if Reaper indoctrination is rushed it basically turns the subject into a mindless zombie. This tends to make the subjects less useful to the Reapers in their overall schemes.

So Shepard completing his mission successfully doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that he is being slowly indoctrinated. For all we know during those two days he could have had something implanted in him, or maybe the effects of exposure to object Rho take weeks or months to manifest.

[Smeelia]

The Twilight God wrote...

I'm not assuming anything. Indoctrination does not trick people into doing things. It makes them want to serve the reapers willingly.

That's not strictly true, Saren didn't willingly serve the Reapers as such he just thought there was no alternative (partly because he was indoctrinated and that suppressed any thoughts of resistance).  There's a lot of evidence that shows indoctrination can be done without the subject realising and with little to no noticeable indications.  The Codex even mentions the possibility of indoctrinating "sleeper" agents who don't seem indoctrinated at all until they're "activated".

The Twilight God wrote...

The entire Derelict Reaper seemed like a lazy last minute idea.

I quite liked the level but I have to agree that it could have been much more "grand" and had more to it.  I found the Geth ship in Project Overlord had much better atmosphere, it's a shame they didn't do that the first time.  I think part of the problem is the way that missions work, in ME1 they had entire plot worlds with several stages and sections but in ME2 the missions were much more contained.  They may have been limited in what they could do within those confines, to some extent at least.

Raven4030 wrote...

I mean, really, if the Reapers wanted to blow up the Alpha Relay they could have just ordered the members of the project to do it and not allow Shephard to become involved in the first place.

Unless they wanted Shepard to go there and get indoctrinated first then destroy the relay and Object Rho afterwards (for whatever reason).

[yfullman]

I think Shepard is starting to experience the first stages of indoctrination. remember the child from the ME3 demo? I personally don't think he was real