105 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I'll just throw this wiki quote in here:

" Matriarch Benezia used her abilities to keep a 'haven' in her mind free of indoctrination, hoping for a chance to use it, but this meant she was effectively trapped in her own mind, watching in horror as she committed atrocities on Saren's orders. " -Mass Effect wiki

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination

Also, the reason Grayson was injected was to test the effects of Reaper Indoctrination.

I'm not joining this debate, but I did want to point that out... carry on debators.

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

No, she was deceiving Shepard to lure him to the artifact.

That's very possible... yet she was still telling the truth about them... about the Alpha Relay, everything.  It could've been deception, but that suggests a farther-reaching conspiracy since she was rescued by Shepard as a favor to Hackett.

The cat was already out of the bag. If Shepard was there then he already knew they found something. She doesn't know how much Shepard knows. Lying could bite her in the ass. She needed to explain where she got the information on the imminent invasion. The truth would be the best avenue in this case.

It makes me wonder if Hackett is indoctrinated and other high ranking Alliance figures. They didn;t just stick some fusion torches in the ground with a shacks for habitats. They built an entire station on that rock. One that looked like a contractr made it. They had to have Alliance support. Hackett may be playing dumb. We'll see.

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I'll just throw this wiki quote in here:

" Matriarch Benezia used her abilities to keep a 'haven' in her mind free of indoctrination, hoping for a chance to use it, but this meant she was effectively trapped in her own mind, watching in horror as she committed atrocities on Saren's orders. " -Mass Effect wiki

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination

Also, the reason Grayson was injected was to test the effects of Reaper Indoctrination.

I'm not joining this debate, but I did want to point that out... carry on debators.

That's the wiki author's take on it.  Benezia's own statements state that her conscious mind wanted to do Saren's bidding, that she was a "willing tool". She wasn't trapped in her body. She simply left a subconscious trigger to a part of her mind isolated from the rest that would activate when an opportunity presented itself.

Cerberus may have intened to test indoctrination, but things didn't happen that way (like damn near everything they do). They assumed any reaper tech would cause indoctrination, even nanotech. They were wrong. It just made a husk. The difference? The victim was still alive. 

[Raven4030]

I'm actually going to pull out of this debate, because it's just quibbling over semantics. Based on all the evidence I've seen, 'indoctrination' is used as a catch-all for converting a free individual into a tool of the Reapers: the science team on the derelict Reaper were referred to as indoctrinated, Saren is referred to as indoctrinated, the crew of that freighter that flew into the Perseus Veil to be converted into husks were referred to as indoctrinated.

I'm saying indoctrination is a term for a variety of techniques and technological applications with the exact same outcome: a Reaper tool. If you want to argue semantics fine, but I'm done wasting my time.

[The Twilight God]

Raven4030 wrote...

I'm actually going to pull out of this debate, because it's just quibbling over semantics.

There are no semantics. The codex lays it out. It's OK, friend. There is no shame in admitting you were wrong. You've seen the light and I'm glad I could help. Good game.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Well technically, Indoctrination is the reprogramming of the brain "through physical and phsychological conditioning" using a variety of methods... according to the codex. So there's nothing exempting nanomachines from being an indoctrination tool (same goes for implants). They could all be considered 'subliminal methods.'

The Reapers are also said to gain control of the limbic system (according to the codex)... which are the parts of the brain responsible for self-preservation and the core of 'personal consciousness.'

It should also be noted that the codex is not a conclusive source on 'what's what' in Mass Effect, as they never claim that Sovereign is a Reaper in his profile.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:20 .

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Well technically, Indoctrination is the reprogramming of the brain "through physical and phsychological conditioning" using a variety of methods... according to the codex. So there's nothing exempting nanomachines from being an indoctrination tool (same goes for implants). They could all be considered 'subliminal methods.'

The Reapers are also said to gain control of the limbic system (according to the codex)... which are the parts of the brain responsible for self-preservation and the core of 'personal consciousness.'

It should also be noted that the codex is not a conclusive source on 'what's what' in Mass Effect, as they never claim that Sovereign is a Reaper in his profile.

Nanotech COULD possibly "indoctrinate" someone by physical altering their brain matter. However, that's not what happened. And it wouldn't be "subliminal" or a matter of "conditioning" though.

[Seboist]

Would be an interesting twist if Shepard has a personal battle against indoctrination in ME3(and is why Cerberus is out to get her).

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...

Nanotech COULD possibly "indoctrinate" someone by physical altering their brain matter. However, that's not what happened. And it wouldn't be "subliminal" or a matter of "conditioning" though.

If they didn't know they were "infected," then you could consider it a subliminal method.  Conditioning can also include the process of nanotech integration.

But in either case, according to the Codex (which is an incomplete source), the Reapers "do" take control of some things as part of Indoctrination.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seboist wrote...

Would be an interesting twist if Shepard has a personal battle against indoctrination in ME3(and is why Cerberus is out to get her).

That would be rather interesting, but I'm still hoping it's for more of a misguided reason like trying to get the Reapers to spare the Earth by making a deal (to buy time).

[gogman25]

I believe Shepard may be immune to the effects of indoctrination due to his exposure (or second hand exposure) to the Thorian and the effects of the beacons, we know that the Thorian can cure indoctrination.

[008Zulu]

No reason to think the beacon would offer immunity, it didn't for Saren. As for the Thorian, perhaps you have to be ingested/assimilated by it in order to be cured.

I'd say he was definitely affected, but does the time exposed dissipate gradually or does it stay in your system for a cumulative effect? If so, Shepard may not be the only one who decides that the Reapers have the right way of doing things.

[adawg828]

i havevnt played arrival yet because i just started the Mass Effect series, but i would figure if he was indoctrinated then why would he even bother trying to save the galaxy in Mass Effect 3

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Nanotech COULD possibly "indoctrinate" someone by physical altering their brain matter. However, that's not what happened. And it wouldn't be "subliminal" or a matter of "conditioning" though.

If they didn't know they were "infected," then you could consider it a subliminal method.  Conditioning can also include the process of nanotech integration.

But in either case, according to the Codex (which is an incomplete source), the Reapers "do" take control of some things as part of Indoctrination.

Could you quote where the codex says possession and indoctrination are the same thing?

Analogy Time:

Subliminally making someone walk cautiously across a field: Flash hidden images of land mines (indoctrination)

Condition someone to walk cautiously across a field: Shoot them with a tazer when they walk too fast (Thorian spores) 

Nanotech making someone walk cautiously across a field: Break their foot. (physical tampering)

There is nothing subliminal about rearranging someones brain tissue. That's like saying secretly introducing Fluothane into a person's oxygen is a way to subliminally put someone to sleep.

[Smeelia]

The Twilight God wrote...

Analogy Time:

Subliminally making someone walk cautiously across a field: Flash hidden images of land mines (indoctrination)

Doesn't this show that the subject could, using indoctrination, be made to do things without requiring that they accept the Reapers as their masters or be aware of indoctrination?  The thoughts aren't really theirs but they accept them because they seem to come from their own minds and are at least somewhat consistent with their current perception of reality (which could itself be altered with further indoctrination).

Modifié par Smeelia, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:53 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

For instance Kensen was indoctrinated when she caught shep. She may've still been indoctrinated when she had the grenade even though she was screaming how she couldn't hear the reapers anymore didn't mean they were gone from her. It could be that they were only not talking to her and letting her draw her own conclusions but still controlling her actions they put the suggestion in her head that a grenade would be a great thing to use and she did.

Meanwhile shep seeing this upset crazed woman thinks shooting her is justified and does so the grenade blowing up the console allows shep to think he couldn't have done anything to stop the project even if there was another option and he must evacuate. The indoctrinated shep thinks he did all he could've done but the reapers still got what they wanted a diversion for the human forces and a potential relay that connected to their dark space star system destroyed.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...

Could you quote where the codex says possession and indoctrination are the same thing?

Analogy Time:

Subliminally making someone walk cautiously across a field: Flash hidden images of land mines (indoctrination)

Condition someone to walk cautiously across a field: Shoot them with a tazer when they walk too fast (Thorian spores) 

Nanotech making someone walk cautiously across a field: Break their foot. (physical tampering)

There is nothing subliminal about rearranging someones brain tissue. That's like saying secretly introducing Fluothane into a person's oxygen is a way to subliminally put someone to sleep.

The method would be subliminal, not the result.  Victims don't know they're being indoctrinated until it's too late.  If that happens, then it was subliminal.

And the codex does say that the Reapers gain control of the limbic system.  In addition, rapid indoctrination rapidly decays the brain... so they are definitely messing with it.

But to restate again, the codex is not the "end all" source on what's what in Mass Effect.  The codex never claims that Sovereign is a Reaper in the Sovereign profile.  So there's nothing against the notion that Indoctrination spans farther than what even the codex claims.  And the end goal of Indoctrination is always the same... control.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:39 .

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The method would be subliminal, not the result.  Victims don't know they're being indoctrinated until it's too late.  If that happens, then it was subliminal.

The term subliminal refers to "subliminal stimuli". The transformation of living tissue is not a stimulus, but a physical process. For instance, developing cancer or alzhiemers is not subliminal.

Now the nanotech could form devices that operate like other reaper artifacts, sending subliminal stimuli directly to the brain.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

And the codex does say that the Reapers gain control of the limbic system.  In addition, rapid indoctrination rapidly decays the brain... so they are definitely messing with it.

The gaining control of the limbic system would be gaining control of how they perceive things; what they fear, joy, how they feel about something, memory, etc. That doesn't mean they can literally control a person's motor functions as that is not what the limbic system is about.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

But to restate again, the codex is not the "end all" source on what's what in Mass Effect.  The codex never claims that Sovereign is a Reaper in the Sovereign profile.  So there's nothing against the notion that Indoctrination spans farther than what even the codex claims.  And the end goal of Indoctrination is always the same... control.

Indoctrination seeks control, but Indoctrination is a specific means of gaining control. Any means of attaining control over someone does not equal Indoctrination. Control and Indoctrination are not interchangeable words. Saren was not studying any implants on Virmire. He was studying the energy field eminating from Soveriegn and its effects on organics (i.e indoctnation).

[The Twilight God]

Smeelia wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Analogy Time:

Subliminally making someone walk cautiously across a field: Flash hidden images of land mines (indoctrination)

Doesn't this show that the subject could, using indoctrination, be made to do things without requiring that they accept the Reapers as their masters or be aware of indoctrination?  The thoughts aren't really theirs but they accept them because they seem to come from their own minds and are at least somewhat consistent with their current perception of reality (which could itself be altered with further indoctrination).

No one is aware of indoctrination. Kenson wasn't aware that her mind was being altered to view the reapers as saviors. On some level they have to accept the reaper's will as their own even if they don't know it's the reaper's will. Making people see them as gods, I assume, is a condition the reapers choose to inflict, but it's not inherent to the process of indoctrination.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...
The term subliminal refers to "subliminal stimuli". The transformation of living tissue is not a stimulus, but a physical process. For instance, developing cancer or alzhiemers is not subliminal.

Now the nanotech could form devices that operate like other reaper artifacts, sending subliminal stimuli directly to the brain.

The term subliminal is exclusvie to itself.  The term used in the codex is "subliminal methods," not "subliminal stimuli."

The gaining control of the limbic system would be gaining control of how they perceive things; what they fear, joy, how they feel about something, memory, etc. That doesn't mean they can literally control a person's motor functions as that is not what the limbic system is about.

Their control doesn't sacrifice the 'individualness' of the individual (until past a certain point)... that's why Indoctrinated people make for such effective deep cover agents.

Similar to how we never fully 'control' game characters, but we do drive their will during certain scenarios... which is close enough.  We don't control how they run, but we can make them run.  We don't control how they say something, but we do control what they say.

Additionally, given what happened with Saren after he died and Grayson while he was alive, The Reapers can take control of individuals if they so chose... a control that Benezia also demonstrated (to a lesser extent).

Indoctrination seeks control, but Indoctrination is a specific means of gaining control. Any means of attaining control over someone does not equal Indoctrination. Control and Indoctrination are not interchangeable words. Saren was not studying any implants on Virmire. He was studying the energy field eminating from Soveriegn and its effects on organics (i.e indoctnation).

On the other hand, Benezia was indoctrinated and had to fight being taken over.  When she was taken over, she acted like a different version of herself.  The implants that Saren recieved were a means to fortify indoctrination without a total takeover.  The codex also states that Indoctrination eventually tears down higher mental functions and results in an essentially mindless thrall (ie, can no longer truly think for themselves).

There's just different degrees to which their indoctrination works.  But they do take over an individual... just to different extremes (as evidenced by the events of the game and the codex).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 juillet 2011 - 11:07 .

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The term subliminal is exclusvie to itself.  The term used in the codex is "subliminal methods," not "subliminal stimuli."

So you believe cancer is subliminal? The word "subliminal", by definition, refers to stimuli regardless of what a codex says or doesn't say.  Otherwise, things like cancer, cell division, mucus production and anything happening outside your direct purview are "subliminal" and the word loses all meaning. 

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Additionally, given what happened with Saren after he died and Grayson while he was alive, The Reapers can take control of individuals if they so chose... a control that Benezia also demonstrated (to a lesser extent).

Grayson wasn't indoctrinated. Saren's corpse wasn't indoctrinated. In both cases, the reapers directly controlled the cybernetics.  So neither of those examples are relevent.

Benezia was not controlled like a puppet. She was performing the attacks. She wanted Shepard dead. The indoctrination is what made her want to attack.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

On the other hand, Benezia was indoctrinated and had to fight being taken over.  When she was taken over, she acted like a different version of herself. 

Benezia set up a subconscious trigger that would "awaken" her on the condition that she was ever in a position to help thwart Saren. She wasn't fighting being taken over by some outside entity, she was fighting her own conditioning as her mind was in a state of contradiction. She wanted to serve Saren, but the part she stored for a rainy day wanted to act against Saren. There were two individuals in one body. Like setting up a seperate partition on a harddrive.

The implants that Saren recieved were a means to fortify indoctrination without a total takeover.  The codex also states that Indoctrination eventually tears down higher mental functions and results in an essentially mindless thrall (ie, can no longer truly think for themselves).

The implants in Saren where to ensure Sovereign could take over if Saren's conscious got the best of him. They didn't increase his resolve as he was swayed even more easily on the Citadel. The lingering doubt won the battle and he was overcoming the effects of mild indoctrination. At that point Soveriegn started applying the heavy pressure via the implants as Saren had completed his mission and no longer needed to retain his higher functions.  Once implants come into play indoctrination isn;t relevent. They don't need to indoctrinate when they can simply force motor functions. TIm could have put a control chip in Shepard. That isn't indoctrination.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

There's just different degrees to which their indoctrination works.  But they do take over an individual... just to different extremes (as evidenced by the events of the game and the codex).

Different degrees/intensities, but one method. Indoctrination means something other than just "control". It defines a particular process to which said control is gained.

[Mabari Owns High Dragon]

I personally think they want Shepherd for something and intentionally indoctrinated Kelly specifically for that purpose. The thing is, nothing but pure hard fact could get Shepherd to trust her and follower her so what she was telling him the entire time was the truth. The Reapers were going to arrive there soon anyway so it really didn't matter what he knew. I was thinking either the Reapers were planning to kill him immediately when they get there and display him to spread mass panic, Indoctrinate him, or maybe other things. It seems like alot of the game showed the Reapers trying to "Catch" Shepherd multiple times, I think the Reapers want his genetics for something. Well I guess that was kinda obvious though because the Shadow Broker was gonna sell him to the Reapers as well.. So its pretty straightforward. The question is what are they gonna do with him when they get him?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...
So you believe cancer is subliminal? The word "subliminal", by definition, refers to stimuli regardless of what a codex says or doesn't say.  Otherwise, things like cancer, cell division, mucus production and anything happening outside your direct purview are "subliminal" and the word loses all meaning. 

Cancer cells maybe... but not cancer itself as a condition.  You can see it as stimuli if you want, it doesn't change what the Codex says or the meaning I was describing.  I was just telling you what the Codex stated.

Grayson wasn't indoctrinated. Saren's corpse wasn't indoctrinated. In both cases, the reapers directly controlled the cybernetics.  So neither of those examples are relevent.

Grayson was reprogrammed, you could argue that Saren wasn't but he was already indoctrinated at that point... just not totally (he could still fight back).  And we know it wasn't 'just' the implants because Benezia experienced the same thing and didn't have them (that isn't to say Saren wasn't feeling the effects of the implants... as they 'strengthened his resolve').

Benezia was not controlled like a puppet. She was performing the attacks. She wanted Shepard dead. The indoctrination is what made her want to attack.

She didn't want to fight Shepard... (yet alone kill him) the Indoctrination made her do it.

Benezia set up a subconscious trigger that would "awaken" her on the condition that she was ever in a position to help thwart Saren. She wasn't fighting being taken over by some outside entity, she was fighting her own conditioning as her mind was in a state of contradiction. She wanted to serve Saren, but the part she stored for a rainy day wanted to act against Saren. There were two individuals in one body. Like setting up a seperate partition on a harddrive.

She was indoctrinated and was fighting indoctrination... she even identified Sovereign as "the key" directly. 

Benezia:  "I can fight his impulsions briefly but the Indoctrination is strong"

The implants in Saren where to ensure Sovereign could take over if Saren's conscious got the best of him. They didn't increase his resolve as he was swayed even more easily on the Citadel. The lingering doubt won the battle and he was overcoming the effects of mild indoctrination. At that point Soveriegn started applying the heavy pressure via the implants as Saren had completed his mission and no longer needed to retain his higher functions.  Once implants come into play indoctrination isn;t relevent. They don't need to indoctrinate when they can simply force motor functions. TIm could have put a control chip in Shepard. That isn't indoctrination.

They strengthened his resolve... (he said as much)... just not enough to prevent Shepard from getting through to him.  Benezia had no such implants and suffered the same mind battle... so it was indoctrination.

Different degrees/intensities, but one method. Indoctrination means something other than just "control". It defines a particular process to which said control is gained.

The codex specifically states that there are multiple methods to achieve Indoctrination (it doesn't list them all)... and the end result is a reprogramming of the brain...causing its victims to serve the Reapers.  And as the codex states, the Reapers do take control of some things.  The full extent and the full scope of Indoctrination is not covered in the codex, but shown in the novels and games.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:33 .

[MCPOWill]

TheSt3alth wrote...

...going by the beacon on Eden prime, but remember this is a Reaper beacon.

Nope. The beacon was Prothean. Nice theory but Shepard isn't indoctrinated. Why would there be choice in ME3 then?