105 réponses à ce sujet

[Eshaye]

The Twilight God wrote...

Raven4030 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

If you are talking about Paul Grayson, he was NOT being indoctrinated. He was becoming a prisoner in his own body due to the reapers directly manipulating the cybernetics. He was more like a living husk than an indoctrinated servant. At no point did Grayson accept reaper domination and give in to their will.  They didn't need his cooperation. They were gaining direct control of the vessel. Grayson was just along for the ride. He could scream and shout all he wanted in his own mind, but he could only watch helplessly as his huskified body did the reaper's will. 

...


...


You're just trolling now, aren't you?

Ah, the old "You disagree with me and I have no counter argument; therefore, I'll call you a troll" defense? Personally, I'd have used the Chewbacca defense.

I accept your acknowledgment of defeat.

No, you are completely wrong actually. Grayson was quite OBVIOUSLY indoctrinated. Really the descrition could NOT possibly be ANY clearer. That's why Raven couldn't believe you'd actually say he wasn't. Yes the Reapers directly controlled his body AS WELL but they also manipulated how his body and brain functioned to get to do what they wanted. Making him believe going towards someone was a good idea while his first idea was going away.. 

There is no way around that one sorry. 

The Reapers will reprogram your brain the way they want to by any technology they've developped, I'm not clear on how it is they are able to latch on to any Reaper tech but it seems pretty obvious there's something inherent in all of it that directly connects the tech to the Reaper 'mind'. 

Also the ME lore is quite clear on what Indoctrination is and no amount of you disecting it and trying to say you're right and everyone else is wrong about the terminology and what it actually means is going to change it. 

Modifié par Eshaye, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:18 .

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Cancer cells maybe... but not cancer itself as a condition.  You can see it as stimuli if you want, it doesn't change what the Codex says or the meaning I was describing.  I was just telling you what the Codex stated.

I'm telling you the codex doesn't say that and that you are redefining the definition on "subliminal" to fit your desired outcome. If you truly believe the formation of cancer cells are "sublliminal" then you have clearly made a conscious choice to be wrong. In which case there is no point in continuing this line of discussion as you do not care about the truth. 

Grayson was reprogrammed, you could argue that Saren wasn't but he was already indoctrinated at that point... just not totally (he could still fight back).  And we know it wasn't 'just' the implants because Benezia experienced the same thing and didn't have them (that isn't to say Saren wasn't feeling the effects of the implants... as they 'strengthened his resolve').

Saren and Benezia weren't exactly on the same boat. Benezia was under the full sway of indoctrination. Unlike Saren her primary consciousness was completely under their sway. And it's not for me or you to state that she and Saren experienced the exact same thing. One was mildly indoctrinated fighting implants and the other fully indoctrinated, her "rain day" subsciousness fighting her own conscious programming; two split personalities fighting for dominance. And there is no way to know if she had an implant or not. I assume she had none.

Grayson would be akin to Shepard in Cerberus Armor that TIM could take control of remotely. Shepard, in this scenario, would be trapped in the suit helplessly watching as TIM controlled it. That is not an example of TIM indoctrinating Shepard. Grayson's body was transformed into a cybernetic husk. Technically, it was no longer his organic body at the end. It was their cybernetic robot. Therefore, there was no need to reprogram the man himself (i.e indoctrinate him). They only needed the body which they acquired

Do you believe husks are indoctrinated? What about remote control race cars?

She didn't want to fight Shepard... (yet alone kill him) the Indoctrination made her do it.

Her hidden subconscious personality didn't want to kill Shepard. Her primary consciousness, which was indoctrinated, did.

The indoctrination is what makes her want to kill him. Indoctrination reprograms an individual. Even her hidden subconscious personality says this when it surfaces. Therefore, she wanted to kill Shepard. Similarly, if I impart to you a desire for chocolate cake it is still a desire you feel, something you want. It's no less a genuine desire than one originating within your own psyche. You wouldn't be able to differeniate.

She was indoctrinated and was fighting indoctrination... she even identified Sovereign as "the key" directly. 

Benezia:  "I can fight his impulsions briefly but the Indoctrination is strong"

No, she claimed it was Saren's impulsions.  The "impulsions", or programming, are already there, set into her consciousness.  This does not mean that an alien consciousness was actively in the process of invading her mind at that very moment. You erroneously decided to take that to mean Soverieign was literally in her head actively fighting her. Now, this is a possibility if...

A.) You stating for the record that the reapers are not AIs and are in fact spiritual entities that exist everywhere at once? In this case, indoctrination merely opens the mind up to the spirit realm from where the reapers can possess people. 

B.) She WAS implanted and Soveriegn was using a quantum entanglement technology similar to how Harbinger controls collectors.

Otherwise, your conclusion is invalid.

They strengthened his resolve... (he said as much)...

It doesn't matter what he said. Saren isn't in a position to know what the implants were for.  He only knows what Sovereign told him they were for.  I'm willing to bet he didn't expect them to turn his body into a remote control robot for Soveriegn's personal use. If they strengthened his resolve there would be no option for suicide. The conversation on Virmire weakened his resolve and the conversation on the Citadel dissolved it entirely. He didn't question himself right then and there on Virmire, yet you're telling me that in a situation were he would rather die than help the reapers complete their plans it was an example of an increased resolve???

The only way his resolve would increase is through a deeper state of indoctrination.

The codex specifically states that there are multiple methods to achieve Indoctrination (it doesn't list them all)... and the end result is a reprogramming of the brain...causing its victims to serve the Reapers.  And as the codex states, the Reapers do take control of some things.  The full extent and the full scope of Indoctrination is not covered in the codex, but shown in the novels and games.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Indoctrination is a subliminal mind altering process. That is the one method I am referring to: subliminal mind alteration. Rather it be ultrasonics, images, electromagnetic fields, etc., it's subliminal. The reapers employ all these methods simultaneously. The totality of these methods define the process of indoctrination.

What you are doing is picking the method part and claiming each part of the total process is distinct and individually reaches the same goal. For instance, I say there is a process for baking a cake and present a recipe. You seperate the step where a icing is applied from the step where the eggs are mixed into the batter. Then you say simply applying icing to something is one method of making a cake. Adding eggs to something is another completely distinct method of making a cake.  

Nowhere in the codex does it say indoctrination involves taking direct control of a subject. The collector general phenomenon is not indoctrination. The creation of husks are not indoctrination. Paul Grayson's body being huskified with him being still alive and becoming trapped in his own body is not indoctrination. Just because reaper do something in regard to another being does not make it indoctrination. Indoctrination is one of many tools at their disposal.

[The Twilight God]

Eshaye wrote...

No, you are completely wrong actually. Grayson was quite OBVIOUSLY indoctrinated. Really the descrition could NOT possibly be ANY clearer. That's why Raven couldn't believe you'd actually say he wasn't. Yes the Reapers directly controlled his body AS WELL but they also manipulated how his body and brain functioned to get to do what they wanted. Making him believe going towards someone was a good idea while his first idea was going away.. 

There is no way around that one sorry. 

When a person is indoctrinated, the reapers do not need to actively work against them. The person has his programming and can operate without direct supervision. Were the reapers trying to indoctrinate him (key word: trying)? Maybe. Highly doubtfully, but maybe. However, Grayson was never indoctrinated. 

Indoctrination is a process that renders a mind vulnerable to the reapers' suggestion.

The indoctrinated are vulnerable to suggestion and the suggestions are already in effect. No further effort is needed on the part of the reapers. The job is done. Hence they don't need implants nor do they have to be in direct proximity to a reaper and will still perform their bidding with devotion.

Grayson was being monitored via implants. The reapers starting effecting his hormones and brain chemistry for the very fact that he wasn't indoctrinated. The reapers started sublimnally effecting him via hormones on the fly after Grayson was adapting to their overt methods. At the time the cybernetics were not widely spread enough for direct control.  Again, anyone can affect a human being with hormones and chemicals. We have equipment right now that can monitor the brain. That is not indoctrination. In fact, at the end Grayson's body was no different than a collector possessed by Harbinger. The reapers themselves were talking directly through his body. It was no longer Grayson at all (Retirbution, page 324-326). Even then Grayson was still inside, still acting against the reapers when the opportunity arised. Again, that is NOT the actions of an indoctrinated person.  If Grayson was indoctrinated he would not be struggling against the reapers.

Sorry, but classifiying everything the reapers do in regard to a victim as indoctrination is erroneous. Next thing you'll tell me, the people being liquified and pumped into the human reaper were being indoctrinated, the creation of husks is indoctrination,  Saren's dead body was indoctrinated, Sovereign's thanix canons were indoctrinating the Alliance fleet, Sovereigns main goal was to indoctrinate the Citadel, the IFF virus indoctrinated the Normandy, etc.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:58 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...
I'm telling you the codex doesn't say that and that you are redefining the definition on "subliminal" to fit your desired outcome. If you truly believe the formation of cancer cells are "sublliminal" then you have clearly made a conscious choice to be wrong. In which case there is no point in continuing this line of discussion as you do not care about the truth. 

Incorrect.  The codex says "subliminal methods"... not "subliminal stimuli."  And the definition of "subliminal" is the same one I'm using... I'm not making it up:

Definition:  "existing or operating below the threshold of consciousness"

Cancer cells would fit that definition...  If you care about the truth, then I'm right on this one.

Saren and Benezia weren't exactly on the same boat. Benezia was under the full sway of indoctrination. Unlike Saren her primary consciousness was completely under their sway. And it's not for me or you to state that she and Saren experienced the exact same thing. One was mildly indoctrinated fighting implants and the other fully indoctrinated, her "rain day" subsciousness fighting her own conscious programming; two split personalities fighting for dominance. And there is no way to know if she had an implant or not. I assume she had none.

It was too late for either of them to be saved because of the Indoctrination.  Both of them were able to hold it off long enough to do the right thing.  They were both suffering from Indoctrination... different methods, but the same result.  And whether Benezia is implanted or not, she says the 'Indoctrination is strong.'  So regardless, we're still talking about Indoctrination.

Grayson would be akin to Shepard in Cerberus Armor that TIM could take control of remotely. Shepard, in this scenario, would be trapped in the suit helplessly watching as TIM controlled it. That is not an example of TIM indoctrinating Shepard. Grayson's body was transformed into a cybernetic husk. Technically, it was no longer his organic body at the end. It was their cybernetic robot. Therefore, there was no need to reprogram the man himself (i.e indoctrinate him). They only needed the body which they acquired

Do you believe husks are indoctrinated? What about remote control race cars?

You need to think about how the body works... and how such a takeover would be possible.  Grayson was reprogrammed, there's no getting around that.  Grayson also became an open book (the Reapers were able to search his memories and trick Grayson etc.).

Her hidden subconscious personality didn't want to kill Shepard. Her primary consciousness, which was indoctrinated, did.

ie)  Benezia didn't want to kill Shepard... the Indoctrination made her do it.  That's how Indoctrination works.

The indoctrination is what makes her want to kill him. Indoctrination reprograms an individual. Even her hidden subconscious personality says this when it surfaces. Therefore, she wanted to kill Shepard. Similarly, if I impart to you a desire for chocolate cake it is still a desire you feel, something you want. It's no less a genuine desire than one originating within your own psyche. You wouldn't be able to differeniate.

Thank you... yes, the Indoctrination is what made Benezia want to kill Shepard.

No, she claimed it was Saren's impulsions.  The "impulsions", or programming, are already there, set into her consciousness.  This does not mean that an alien consciousness was actively in the process of invading her mind at that very moment. You erroneously decided to take that to mean Soverieign was literally in her head actively fighting her. Now, this is a possibility if...

I never said she didn't claim it was Saren's "impulsions"... read the rest of her quote.  Additionally, she specifically says that the key was Sovereign.  The Indoctrination Benezia recieved made her subservent to Saren... that doesn't make it any less Indoctrination.

A.) You stating for the record that the reapers are not AIs and are in fact spiritual entities that exist everywhere at once? In this case, indoctrination merely opens the mind up to the spirit realm from where the reapers can possess people. 

B.) She WAS implanted and Soveriegn was using a quantum entanglement technology similar to how Harbinger controls collectors.

Otherwise, your conclusion is invalid.

Don't presuppose, take what I actually say.  Lets not make this into another debate where one party fabricates what the other says.

It doesn't matter what he said. Saren isn't in a position to know what the implants were for.  He only knows what Sovereign told him they were for.  I'm willing to bet he didn't expect them to turn his body into a remote control robot for Soveriegn's personal use. If they strengthened his resolve there would be no option for suicide. The conversation on Virmire weakened his resolve and the conversation on the Citadel dissolved it entirely. He didn't question himself right then and there on Virmire, yet you're telling me that in a situation were he would rather die than help the reapers complete their plans it was an example of an increased resolve???

The only way his resolve would increase is through a deeper state of indoctrination.

It does matter... and he did know what the implants were for.  He said specifically that he began having doubts and Sovereign noticed it and gave him the implants as a solution to his growing doubts...  You say deeper state of indoctrination?  Make of that what you will... he still wasn't consciously aware that he was being indoctrinated.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Indoctrination is a subliminal mind altering process. That is the one method I am referring to: subliminal mind alteration. Rather it be ultrasonics, images, electromagnetic fields, etc., it's subliminal. The reapers employ all these methods simultaneously. The totality of these methods define the process of indoctrination.

Yes... if the victim is not actively aware that it's happening, it's subliminal.  And there are various methods that the victim would not be aware of as they happen.

What you are doing is picking the method part and claiming each part of the total process is distinct and individually reaches the same goal. For instance, I say there is a process for baking a cake and present a recipe. You seperate the step where a icing is applied from the step where the eggs are mixed into the batter. Then you say simply applying icing to something is one method of making a cake. Adding eggs to something is another completely distinct method of making a cake.  

Nowhere in the codex does it say indoctrination involves taking direct control of a subject. The collector general phenomenon is not indoctrination. The creation of husks are not indoctrination. Paul Grayson's body being huskified with him being still alive and becoming trapped in his own body is not indoctrination. Just because reaper do something in regard to another being does not make it indoctrination. Indoctrination is one of many tools at their disposal.

The codex on Sovereign also does not say Sovereign is a Reaper (or sentient)... it's just referred to as a ship.  The point being... that the codex is not conclusive and does not cover the full extent of its subjects.  The "goal" is different from any "common method." 

Saren was made to follow Sovereign due to Indoctrination.  Benezia was made to follow Saren due also to Indoctrination.  What happened to Paul Grayson is also attributed to Indoctrination.

Quote from the Mass Effect wiki on Paul Grayson:
"As the indoctrination grew more powerful, he felt a prisoner in his own body. The indoctrinated Grayson eventually made it to Jon Grissom Academy, as the Reapers were interested in the biotic potential of its students"

In addition, the novel (Retribution) illustrates Grayson suffering from the same voices in the mind that is stipulated by the codex concerning Indoctrination.

The goal of Indoctrination is control over its victims to varying capacities... but usually not to the point where they can't be deep cover agents. 

EDIT:  Additional tidbit... quote from the back of the book (Mass Effect: Retribution)
"The insidious whispers grow ever stronger in his head, threatening to take over his very identity and unleash the Reapers on an unsuspecting galaxy."

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 04 juillet 2011 - 07:17 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Also note that in the codex, "suggestions" is written in quotations... implying an indirect meaning... and suggesting that it's not a suggestion... but an ultimately overriding force (as demonstrated in the games).

[Mr. Gogeta34]

"The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders."

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


Incorrect.  The codex says "subliminal methods"... not "subliminal stimuli."  And the definition of "subliminal" is the same one I'm using... I'm not making it up:

Definition:  "existing or operating below the threshold of consciousness"

Cancer cells would fit that definition...  If you care about the truth, then I'm right on this one.

Thank you for proving my point.

Here is the FULL AND COMPLETE definition as opposed to a phrase pulled out of a defintion, which out of context fits your desired meaning.



sub·lim·i·nal

[suhb-lim-uh-nl]

–adjective Psychology .


1. Existing or operating below the threshold of consciousness; being or employing stimuli insufficiently intense to produce a discrete sensation but often being or designed to be intense enough to influence the mental processes or the behavior of the individual: a subliminal stimulus; subliminal advertising.

Here is another:

adj. Psychology

• Below the threshold of conscious perception. Used of stimuli.
• Inadequate to produce conscious awareness but able to evoke a response: subliminal propaganda.

The very word implies stimuli. Spiking someone's drink, for instance is not "subliminal" nor a "subliminal method".

It was too late for either of them to be saved because of the Indoctrination.  Both of them were able to hold it off long enough to do the right thing.  They were both suffering from Indoctrination... different methods, but the same result.  And whether Benezia is implanted or not, she says the 'Indoctrination is strong.'  So regardless, we're still talking about Indoctrination.

Saren could have overcome indoctrination without the implants because he wasn't a complete thrall.  He was swayed by suggestion. Saren was brought to a certain conclusion through indoctrination. In his final scene he says the implants are too strong, not indoctrination. He was implanted because Soveriegn did not feel mild indoctrination was enough, he wanted Saren competent, but he also wanted a plan B.

Benezia's primary conscious self was a fanatical raving loon for Soveriegn. Benezia's primary consciousness was remade entirely in a deeper indoctrination. Big difference.

You need to think about how the body works... and how such a takeover would be possible.  Grayson was reprogrammed, there's no getting around that.  Grayson also became an open book (the Reapers were able to search his memories and trick Grayson etc.).

The books says otherwise. Read it. The reapers were directly controlling the body against his will. As I said to another poster, "indoctrinating" and "indictrinated" are two different things. Grayson was not swayed or reprogrammed. He was used. (Example: Retribution pag 263-264)

What I'm saying is fact. I'm not going to argue back and forth like this is up for debate, no more than I'm going to argue with you that water is wet. It's wet. I'm right. You're wrong. End of story. 

ie)  Benezia didn't want to kill Shepard... the Indoctrination made her do it.  That's how Indoctrination works.

Wrong.

Apparent;y, you have the erroneous idea that indoctrination is a word Bioware made up and is subject to your opinion.
in·doc·tri·nate
play_w2("I0111500")
(n-dktr-nt)
tr.v. in·doc·tri·nat·ed, in·doc·tri·nat·ing, in·doc·tri·nates
1. To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.
2. To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view

If Benezia did not want to kill Shepard then she was not indoctrinated. By definition, a person has to believe in the ideological view they were indoctrinated into. Otherwise, it's defined as coercion.

Thank you... yes, the Indoctrination is what made Benezia want to kill Shepard.

And she wanted to kill him all the same. You just claimed she didn't want to kill him... even though she attempts to kill Shepard in that very scene.

 

The Twilight God wrote...

A.) You stating for the record that the reapers are not AIs and are in fact spiritual entities that exist everywhere at once? In this case, indoctrination merely opens the mind up to the spirit realm from where the reapers can possess people. 

B.) She WAS implanted and Soveriegn was using a quantum entanglement technology similar to how Harbinger controls collectors.

Otherwise, your conclusion is invalid.

Don't presuppose, take what I actually say. 

I took what you said it is was invalid.

Hence, you believe either A,  B or your conclusion is invalid. There is no way around it.

Saren was made to follow Sovereign due to Indoctrination.  Benezia was made to follow Saren due also to Indoctrination.  What happened to Paul Grayson is also attributed to Indoctrination.

Let's make this simple. Quote Retribution where it says he was indoctrinated.

Quote from the Mass Effect wiki on Paul Grayson:
"As the indoctrination grew more powerful, he felt a prisoner in his own body. The indoctrinated Grayson eventually made it to Jon Grissom Academy, as the Reapers were interested in the biotic potential of its students"

Wiki authors' are people like you and me. You could have written that. I can go in and edit that to reflect my take on Grayson.

Again, present a quote from Retribution stating that Grayson was indoctrinated. You do that and I'll have to admit you're right. Don't and you admit you were wrong. Deal?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...

Thank you for proving my point.

Here is the FULL AND COMPLETE definition as opposed to a phrase pulled out of a defintion, which out of context fits your desired meaning.

sub·lim·i·nal

[suhb-lim-uh-nl]

–adjective Psychology .

1. Existing or operating below the threshold of consciousness; being or employing stimuli insufficiently intense to produce a discrete sensation but often being or designed to be intense enough to influence the mental processes or the behavior of the individual: a subliminal stimulus; subliminal advertising.

Here is another:

adj. Psychology

• Below the threshold of conscious perception. Used of stimuli.
  
  
  
  
• Inadequate to produce conscious awareness but able to evoke a response: subliminal propaganda.

The very word implies stimuli. Spiking someone's drink, for instance is not "subliminal" nor a "subliminal method".

Unfortunately, it was not your point that is proven by this.  I'm glad that you looked at the definition though and realize that I did not make that up.

Those definitions go against nothing I've stated.  We can also look at what "stimuli" means:

n. pl. stim·u·li (-l)
1. Something causing or regarded as causing a response.
2. An agent, action, or condition that elicits or accelerates a physiological or psychological activity or response.
3. Something that incites or rouses to action; an incentive:

Saren could have overcome indoctrination without the implants because he wasn't a complete thrall.  He was swayed by suggestion. Saren was brought to a certain conclusion through indoctrination. In his final scene he says the implants are too strong, not indoctrination. He was implanted because Soveriegn did not feel mild indoctrination was enough, he wanted Saren competent, but he also wanted a plan B.

Benezia's primary conscious self was a fanatical raving loon for Soveriegn. Benezia's primary consciousness was remade entirely in a deeper indoctrination. Big difference.

Saren could fight against indoctrination... but not forever.  Grayson was likewise able to fight against what was happening to him until it got stronger... same for Benezia.  The longer (or more concentrated) the exposure, the less control a victim has.

Benezia was not herself when she wanted to kill Shepard and her daughter... it was the indoctrination.  Not sure there's anything left to say on the matter.  Her will was not to kill them, it was the will of the Reapers... the Indoctrination.

The books says otherwise. Read it. The reapers were directly controlling the body against his will. As I said to another poster, "indoctrinating" and "indictrinated" are two different things. Grayson was not swayed or reprogrammed. He was used. (Example: Retribution pag 263-264)

What I'm saying is fact. I'm not going to argue back and forth like this is up for debate, no more than I'm going to argue with you that water is wet. It's wet. I'm right. You're wrong. End of story. 

While the Reapers did eventually gain control of Grayson against his will, the book does not "say otherwise."  The book specifically describes how Grayson has changed along with that his body had literally become "repurposed" by the Reapers.  Now I'd also request that you be aware of what reprogramming means.

Apparent;y, you have the erroneous idea that indoctrination is a word Bioware made up and is subject to your opinion.
in·doc·tri·nate
play_w2("I0111500")
(n-dktr-nt)
tr.v. in·doc·tri·nat·ed, in·doc·tri·nat·ing, in·doc·tri·nates
1. To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.
2. To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view

If Benezia did not want to kill Shepard then she was not indoctrinated. By definition, a person has to believe in the ideological view they were indoctrinated into. Otherwise, it's defined as coercion.

Apparently you missed the part where Benezia herself said that "the Indoctrination is strong".. and that she was talking about herself.  Lets seriously not even try to debate whether Benezia was indoctrinated or not... she was Indoctrinated, nothing else to discuss here.

And if someone does the will of the Reapers, they are imbued with the Reaper's idealogical point of view... their will and orders.
 

And she wanted to kill him all the same. You just claimed she didn't want to kill him... even though she attempts to kill Shepard in that very scene.

lol because she was Indoctrinated... she broke Indoctrination in the middle of the fight (long enough to help Shepard stop Saren)... but couldn't maintain control for long.  Grayson also breaks control of his takeover... but not for long.  She was not herself... Grayson was not himself.

 I took what you said it is was invalid.

Hence, you believe either A,  B or your conclusion is invalid. There is no way around it.

Incorrect, just because you don't see other alternatives doesn't mean they aren't there.  Again, take what I actually say and don't presuppose.

Let's make this simple. Quote Retribution where it says he was indoctrinated.
 
Wiki authors' are people like you and me. You could have written that. I can go in and edit that to reflect my take on Grayson.

Again, present a quote from Retribution stating that Grayson was indoctrinated. You do that and I'll have to admit you're right. Don't and you admit you were wrong. Deal?

"He's resisting," the Illusive Man said appreciatively.  "Fighting the Reapers."

-"Our testing shows narcotics have no impact on the Reaper biotechnology.  And it could weaken his focus.  Make him more succeptible to the Indoctrination."

"Do it," the Illusive Man ordered. 

Deal.  Was nice debating with you and I enjoyed this dicussion.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:08 .

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Unfortunately, it was not your point that is proven by this.  I'm glad that you looked at the definition though and realize that I did not make that up.

Trolling?: ignoring.

If you wish to agree to disagree that is fine, but the entirety of yout post is just you ignoring everything I say and insisting on an opposing view. You never offer any evidence to support your claims. When I refute your claims you don't state why my arguments are incorrect. You simply regurgitate what I just refuted as if you didn't read my post at all.Maybe you are not intentionally trolling, but that is what it seesm like. Since the followung challenge is more straightforward I'll simply defer to that.

The Twilight God wrote....

Again, present a quote from Retribution stating that Grayson was indoctrinatED. You do that and I'll have to admit you're right. Don't and you admit you were wrong. Deal?

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

"He's resisting," the Illusive Man said appreciatively.  "Fighting the Reapers."

-"Our testing shows narcotics have no impact on the Reaper biotechnology.  And it could weaken his focus.  Make him more succeptible to the Indoctrination."

"Do it," the Illusive Man ordered. 

Deal.  Was nice debating with you and I enjoyed this dicussion.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself.

I don't see anything in that quote confirming that Grayson was indoctrinated. TIM performing an experiment for the purpose of studying indoctrination does not mean he was indoctrinated nor that any process of indoctrination occured or would necessarily occur. Furthermore, that was at the beginning of the book before the physical transformation really started to kick in so he couldn't have been indoctrinated even if indoctrination was occuring.

Also, please post the page number(s) you get quotes from. I remember that part off the top of my head so I know it's a real quote, but other quotes may not be so recognizable.

Let me make this clear if you didn't understand the first time. I asked: Where does the book say Grayson was indoctrinatED?
 
NOT, "Where does a character from the book make a comment about the process of indoctrinatION?"

If you need more time, let me know.




P.S. anyone is welcome to help Mr. Gogeta34 out and prove me wrong with a quote. Any Bioare writters care to chime in?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 07 juillet 2011 - 02:42 .

[JamieCOTC]

It would be interesting to think that the Reapers or the indoctrinated doctor and her staff did something to Shepard while she was lying on the table for two days. Unfortunately, the cynic in me believes it was a weak plot device just to make two days pass by quickly.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...
Trolling?: ignoring.

If you wish to agree to disagree that is fine, but the entirety of yout post is just you ignoring everything I say and insisting on an opposing view. You never offer any evidence to support your claims. When I refute your claims you don't state why my arguments are incorrect. You simply regurgitate what I just refuted as if you didn't read my post at all.Maybe you are not intentionally trolling, but that is what it seesm like. Since the followung challenge is more straightforward I'll simply defer to that.

All you did was post the "full and complete" definition.  I didn't ignore it... it just didn't make a difference... as I stated but you left that part out of your quote.  Make sure to read all of what I say if you're going to respond to it conclusively... I'm not telling you anything without a reason... not trolling either.

The Twilight God wrote....
I think you're getting ahead of yourself.

I don't see anything in that quote confirming that Grayson was indoctrinated. TIM performing an experiment for the purpose of studying indoctrination does not mean he was indoctrinated nor that any process of indoctrination occured or would necessarily occur. Furthermore, that was at the beginning of the book before the physical transformation really started to kick in so he couldn't have been indoctrinated even if indoctrination was occuring.

Also, please post the page number(s) you get quotes from. I remember that part off the top of my head so I know it's a real quote, but other quotes may not be so recognizable.

Let me make this clear if you didn't understand the first time. I asked: Where does the book say Grayson was indoctrinatED?
 
NOT, "Where does a character from the book make a comment about the process of indoctrinatION?"

If you need more time, let me know.

lol seriously, Grayson was fighting the Indoctrination... that's what the passage was saying... you can't fight it if you don't have it.  The red sand was to weaken Grayson's focus so he wouldn't fight it as much.  It was already in him... that's why they were mentioning that the drug didn't affect the Reaper biotech.  You need to connect the dots on this more... don't be too dense in your thinking. 

Saren and Benezia both resisted the Indoctrination... that doesn't mean they weren't indoctrinated.

Additionally, after the red sand injection, he did become more succeptible to the Reapers. 

Time to stay true to your word.  As further incentive:

"The Reapers made another slight alteration to Grayson's thought pattern.  Instead of his rational, conscious mind doing what was morally right, he momentarily succombed to his primal, subconscious yearnings and desires."

That sounds like some reprogramming going on to me... and you should know by now that the Reapers do more than "suggest" things when someone is Indoctrinated.  It's nowhere near democratic in nature... at this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.  You can either respond with game facts instead of your own opinions and notions or we can put this discussion to rest... given the evidence presented thusfar. 

That's all the time I need for now.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 juillet 2011 - 04:11 .

[The Twilight God]

[quote]Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

lol seriously, Grayson was fighting the Indoctrination... that's what the passage was saying... you can't fight it if you don't have it.  The red sand was to weaken Grayson's focus so he wouldn't fight it as much.  It was already in him... that's why they were mentioning that the drug didn't affect the Reaper biotech.  You need to connect the dots on this more... don't be too dense in your thinking.  [/quote]

First, we can do without the personal attacks.

Second, how would TIM know if indoctrination was taking place?  Yes, he wanted to study indoctrination. But what he wanted to get out of the experiment does not automatically equate to what he did get out of the experiment. In that particular quote he refers to the spread of the cybernetics. TIM has no clue whatsoever as to that state of Grayson's allegiance toward the Reapers.

Agree or disagree?

If disagree, why?

[/quote]Time to stay true to your word.  As further incentive:[/quote]

You can't just make statements, extrapolate your own meaning and expect me to agree with you "just because". You have yet to provide a single quote stating that Grayson was indoctrinated. The burden of proof is on you.

[quote]Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

That sounds like some reprogramming going on to me... and you should know by now that the Reapers do more than "suggest" things when someone is Indoctrinated.  It's nowhere near democratic in nature... at this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.  You can either respond with game facts instead of your own opinions and notions or we can put this discussion to rest... given the evidence presented thusfar. 

That's all the time I need for now.[/quote]

Reprogramming implies that Grayson is fundamentally changed. In otherwords, even without the reapers' direct manipulation he would still do their bidding. That is not the case. They had direct access to his brain via implants. When he dies he feels them leave and is glad that it is just him again. If he was reprogrammed it would not matter if they were in his head or not. He'd be their thrall regardless.

Agree or disagree?

If disagree, why?



Are you giving up on looking for a quote which states he was indoctrinated or do you need more time?

[Raven4030]

The Twilight God wrote...

You can't just make statements, extrapolate your own meaning and expect me to agree with you "just because". You have yet to provide a single quote stating that Grayson was indoctrinated. The burden of proof is on you.

Um, maybe it's because I haven't been reading the right ones but among the 50 or so novels I've read in my lifetime (note that most of those novels were of admittedly little intellectual substance or required reading for school), when a character says something and is wrong about it the author usually clarifies why that character is wrong at a moment the plot permits, otherwise the character's statement can be taken as accurate. The only exception is when the book is told from a first-person perspective, but that book was told from the perspective of an omnipotent third-person. Basically, the quote is valid, exactly what you asked for, and at this point you're back-pedaling.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...
First, we can do without the personal attacks.

There are no personal attacks there.  Don't fabricate.

Second, how would TIM know if indoctrination was taking place?  Yes, he wanted to study indoctrination. But what he wanted to get out of the experiment does not automatically equate to what he did get out of the experiment. In that particular quote he refers to the spread of the cybernetics. TIM has no clue whatsoever as to that state of Grayson's allegiance toward the Reapers.

Agree or disagree?

If disagree, why?

Incorrect.  TIM was talking with his team of scientists about Grayson's resistance to the Reapers.  Again, resisting the Indoctrination doesn't mean the Indoctrination isn't there... as it is there (has to be in order to be resisted)... and was there before this scene began.

You're supposing something that simply is not the case... they wouldn't be talking about the Indoctrination if they didn't know it was there.

Time to wrap this up.  The book says Indoctrination and TIM approves the use of Red Sand to break down Grayson's resistence to it (which later on becomes successful).  Grayson had the voices in his head before that happened. 

What else is there to talk about besides how you're just arguing for the sake of it and not acknowledging the facts presented?  Come on now, be honorable and stay true to your word.

You can't just make statements, extrapolate your own meaning and expect me to agree with you "just because". You have yet to provide a single quote stating that Grayson was indoctrinated. The burden of proof is on you.

Lol that wasn't my statement... that was a quote from the actual book  Time to look at what "reprogramming" means... put this together:

Definition:  to program anew; especially : to revise or write a new program for (as a computer).

An "alteration to Grayson's thought pattern" fits "reprogramming the brain" perfectly.  It happened... and the codex attributes this to Indoctrination.  The scientists say it's indoctrination and TIM approves of a method to speed up the process of Indoctrination.  What else is there to talk about?

Reprogramming implies that Grayson is fundamentally changed. In otherwords, even without the reapers' direct manipulation he would still do their bidding. That is not the case. They had direct access to his brain via implants. When he dies he feels them leave and is glad that it is just him again. If he was reprogrammed it would not matter if they were in his head or not. He'd be their thrall regardless.

Agree or disagree?

If disagree, why?

Are you giving up on looking for a quote which states he was indoctrinated or do you need more time?

The quote that I provided proves reprogramming without question. 

Also refer again to Benezia, how Saren's voice was in her head and his "fingers" were on her 'spine.'  You're misunderstanding Indoctrination... something new is there when Indoctrination happens.  The Reapers come and go from consciousness at will.

Indoctrinated Dr. Kenson (Arrival DLC):  "You've ruined everything!  I can't hear the whispers anymore."

Lets go back to what's on the back of the Retribution book:

"The insidious whispers grow ever stronger in his [Grayson's] head, threatening to take over his very identity and unleash the Reapers on an unsuspecting galaxy."

In light of all the facts, what we're looking at is pretty self-evident.  The point has been proven... all that's left is your acceptance.

[adawg828]

i have a simple answer to this... Shepard is strong minded... Saren gave in to the Reapers which then he got indoctrinated... then Dr. Kenson i believed was indoctrinated because her eyes glowed massive bright yellow/pale and she was definitely not as strong mined and strong willed as Shepard...

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

There are no personal attacks there.  Don't fabricate.

Sorry, I misread your last sentence.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Twilight God...

Agree or disagree?

If disagree, why?

Incorrect. 

How am I incorrect? I asked you why you disagreed with my statement. Not, provide an alternate interpretation while leaving my statement unrefuted. I understand you think a certain way, but if we just keep restating our views back and forth we just run in circles.
 
I'm unconcerned with rather indoctrination took place or not. I've already stated that an attempt at indoctrination may have taken place. I don't think it did because given the amount of time, Grayson should have been indoctrinated by the conclusion. Neither of us are in a position to say that indoctrination occured or didn't occur. It's irrelevent in that respect. The issue is rather or not Grayson was indoctrinated (ie willingly working for the reapers).

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

You're supposing something that simply is not the case... they wouldn't be talking about the Indoctrination if they didn't know it was there.

They were studying reaper technology and it is logic to assume that indoctrination would occur.  Indoctrination is well documented side effect of being in proximity to reaper devices. I'm not even saying that the reapers did not possess the means, via the cybernetics, to indoctrinate Grayson. What I am saying is that they had no need to and clearly did not indoctrinate him because he was fighting against the reapers the entire book.

If we accept that indoctrination is subliminal we must accept that Grayson was not battling indoctrination on the Cerberus station due to the following:

1. The reapers were using a brute force attack to take command of Grayson's physical body. He was fully aware of the alien presense he was fighting against. You can clearly see from Grayson's personal account that the red sand prevented him from focusing. This allowed the reapers to directly control the body unchallenged while Grayson's mind remained unchanged, but cut of from motor control by the reapers. If TIM interpreted this as "fighthing indoctrination" that was his mistake. When the author tells the story from Grayson's perspective it is clear that no subliminal change to Grayson's character took place. It was not necessary. (pg 123-127)

2. It was not until he had escaped his captors, was alone on a ship, the effects of the red sand dissapated and Grayson proved resilient to brute force that the reapers started using subliminal methods. You can clearly see that even the subliminal attacks were physical attacks. Using the cyberbetics that physically altered his hormone levels and physically introduced electrical impulses to force his emotional state at that point in time. Ergo, he was not reprogrammed. This was not a permanent change to his personality. This type of manipulation can be done using modern day chemicals. (pg 200-201)

If indoctrination indoctrinates we must assume an indoctrinated Grayson would not need real-time reaper supervsion to function as their agent.

3. The husk body, formerly Grayson's body, was a literal avatar for the reapers. TIM makes this prediction early on (pg 127). The reapers themselves were walking and talking directly through his body. (pg 324-326) The author constantly says, "the reapers made Grayson's arm do this...", "the reapers made Grayson's hand do that..." Grayson being helpless to do anything but watch in anguish.

4. In the end we see that his personality was not changed. He was not indoctrinated. Given the amount of time that elapsed they could have easily pushed the heavy indoctrination, reduced him to a vegetable state and then taken direct control of the body without any opposition. This did not happen. This tells me that the cybernetics did not possess the ability to indoctrinate the host (perhaps due to the way it interfaces with the host) even though it does start indoctrinating Kahlee Sanders (pg 326). Upon irreparable damage to the body the reapers disconnected and Grayson was alone and happy. He was not indoctrinated. If he was indoctrinated he would be filled with the reapers' doctrine and think in a manner consistent with the reapers' plans. (pg 332)

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

What else is there to talk about besides how you're just arguing for the sake of it and not acknowledging the facts presented?  Come on now, be honorable and stay true to your word.

You have not presented anything to prove your case. I have refuted all your claims. You can stump your feet and pout all you want, but simply making claims and expecting me to just accept them because you say so isn't going to cut it. Sorry.

If you need more time to find a quote that actually states Grayson was indoctrinated, let me know. If not... well, the burden of proof is yours. I can't be expected to prove a negative. I've read the book and recall not a single sentence stating Grayson was indoctrinated. TIM thinking indoctrination was occuring is not the same as the author stating as a narrator that indoctrination is occuring. And the occurence of the process of indoctrination does not necessarily equate to the subject actual ending up indoctrinated.

I will repeat my challenge in case you have forgotten:

Post a single quote stating that Paul Grayson was indoctrinated.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote....

Reprogramming implies that Grayson is fundamentally changed. In otherwords, even without the reapers' direct manipulation he would still do their bidding. That is not the case. They had direct access to his brain via implants. When he dies he feels them leave and is glad that it is just him again. If he was reprogrammed it would not matter if they were in his head or not. He'd be their thrall regardless.

Agree or disagree?

If disagree, why?

<tangent remarks ignored>

Why do you disagree with what I posted? I am not interested in any comment other than your response to my question. Until you tell me why I am wrong I have no reason to change my mind.

Let's try this again.

Why do you disagree with me? What do you find wrong with my statement?
 

Modifié par The Twilight God, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:56 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Prepare for the long post, lol...

The Twilight God wrote...
Sorry, I misread your last sentence.

np

How am I incorrect? I asked you why you disagreed with my statement. Not, provide an alternate interpretation while leaving my statement unrefuted. I understand you think a certain way, but if we just keep restating our views back and forth we just run in circles.

I disagreed because you were incorrect in your assertion that TIM didn't know the state of the Reapers against Grayson (everything about Grayson was being monitored.. his brain patterns, heart rate, everything) or your implication that they weren't talking about indoctrination.  The book clearly stated (by TIM himself) that Grayson was fighting the Reapers at that time.  I've quoted this.

Additionally, Indoctrination was specifically talked about regarding Grayson and that's what the Red Sand was theorized to further along.  This was approved by TIM in the novel. 
 

I'm unconcerned with rather indoctrination took place or not. I've already stated that an attempt at indoctrination may have taken place. I don't think it did because given the amount of time, Grayson should have been indoctrinated by the conclusion. Neither of us are in a position to say that indoctrination occured or didn't occur. It's irrelevent in that respect. The issue is rather or not Grayson was indoctrinated (ie willingly working for the reapers).

As has been stated before, Indoctrination serves various purposes to the end goal of serving the Reaper's will and even those who are Indoctrinated (Benezia, Kenson, Saren, and Grayson) were all able to resist at times.  No one who's Indoctrinated willingly works for the Reapers (even if they seem like they are).  They are put into a position where they do serve... they become different people... even if their higher mental faculties are always against the idea, eventually even that breaks down.

Saren was Indoctrinated but kept his sense of free will... he felt like he was in control and was fooled.  Grayson was never "completely" taken over 24/7, he always had times where he could fight back and regain control... but as more time passed, the harder it was for him to do so.

Also remember the "whispers" and what happened to Grayson before and after the Red Sand injection.  Grayson succombed to the whispers after the Red Sand injection.  The same term is used by Kenson, who was clearly indoctrinated... and the same phenominon is mentioned in the codex... referring to... Indoctrination.  Those voices in Grayson's head didn't leave after the Red Sand... it got worse.

They were studying reaper technology and it is logic to assume that indoctrination would occur.  Indoctrination is well documented side effect of being in proximity to reaper devices. I'm not even saying that the reapers did not possess the means, via the cybernetics, to indoctrinate Grayson. What I am saying is that they had no need to and clearly did not indoctrinate him because he was fighting against the reapers the entire book.

While I understand the arguement, what's needed and what's done are two different things.  The reprogramming of the brain, the voices in the mind, the subliminal method of micro technology... they all fit Indoctrination.  If you want to seperate Indoctrination from his body's physical repurposing, that's up to you.  But the Reapers did make Grayson subject to their "suggestions" via Indoctrination.

1. The reapers were using a brute force attack to take command of Grayson's physical body. He was fully aware of the alien presense he was fighting against. You can clearly see from Grayson's personal account that the red sand prevented him from focusing. This allowed the reapers to directly control the body unchallenged while Grayson's mind remained unchanged, but cut of from motor control by the reapers. If TIM interpreted this as "fighthing indoctrination" that was his mistake. When the author tells the story from Grayson's perspective it is clear that no subliminal change to Grayson's character took place. It was not necessary. (pg 123-127)

Just because a victim looks like they mean it (Grayson looked sincere when he did the things he did as well)... it doesn't mean they aren't Indoctrinated... and certainly doesn't mean they aren't using force to make them do what the Reapers will.  Every known indoctrinated person that tried to fight it stand as perfect examples of this.

Also don't confuse the method with the result:

The method was through micro technology... and such a method is indeed subliminal (Grayson didn't know it was there anymore once he regained consciousness...)

The result was the ability to alter and eventually take over Grayson's mind and body... though his higher/intellectual functions persisted (which doesn't contradict the codex... which says that eventually decays).

Additionally, TIM didn't say Grayson was fighting Indoctrination, the Doctors were saying the Red Sand would make it easier for him to succomb to the Indoctrination.

You have not presented anything to prove your case. I have refuted all your claims. You can stump your feet and pout all you want, but simply making claims and expecting me to just accept them because you say so isn't going to cut it. Sorry.

If you need more time to find a quote that actually states Grayson was indoctrinated, let me know. If not... well, the burden of proof is yours. I can't be expected to prove a negative. I've read the book and recall not a single sentence stating Grayson was indoctrinated. TIM thinking indoctrination was occuring is not the same as the author stating as a narrator that indoctrination is occuring. And the occurence of the process of indoctrination does not necessarily equate to the subject actual ending up indoctrinated.

You're always going to feel I've not presented anything if you don't read what I say.  Read what I say so I can take your statement regarding not presenting something more seriously...

Put it together:
 
1.  We have Indoctrination being discussed for Grayson... and Red Sand given the go-ahead to allow the Indoctrination to work without Grayson's resistence.  After the Red Sand injection, Grayson does not resist (what do you think would logically happen in such a scenario?).

2.  We have the whispers (which the Indoctrinated Kenson also had and is referenced under Indoctrination in the Codex)... that happened before TIM mentioned Grayson's resistence and got worse after the Red Sand was injected.

3.  We have a reprogramming of Grayson's brain (also mentioned in the codex as part of Indoctrination)

4.  We have Grayson manipulated into wanting what the Reapers want him to want (also in the Codex and explained in another example below).  He also refused to kill himself when he had the chance (and was about to do it) because he felt it was the coward's way out.

5.  We have Grayson inadvertently betraying friends (Grayson was made to want to see Kahlee whom he personally felt he should stay away from).  The book claims he was completely unaware that the Reapers had done this.

6.   The Reapers never had complete and total control.. Grayson could fight it and regain control of his body during certain times... but time made such a fight harder to do (like it does to all Indoctrinated victims).

7.  Benezia, Saren... they both were able to resist the Reapers at times the Reapers would not want such a thing to happen.  Saren in particular was also able to kill himself and does (pending your playthrough) while Grayson refused to do so (even though he had the same opportunity).  Indoctrination does not always equal complete and utter control..  To say Grayson was not Indoctrinated just because he wasn't always willing to do what the Reapers wanted flies in the face of other Indoctrinated victims.

I will repeat my challenge in case you have forgotten:

Post a single quote stating that Paul Grayson was indoctrinated.

Why do you disagree with what I posted? I am not interested in any comment other than your response to my question. Until you tell me why I am wrong I have no reason to change my mind.

Let's try this again.

Why do you disagree with me? What do you find wrong with my statement?
 

I disagree that you feel Grayson's brain wasn't reprogrammed (in this case, you are simply incorrect).  I also disagree that Grayson wasn't Indoctrinated.  Read what I said instead of skipping this time and you'll see that I not only defined what "Reprogramming" meant... but I also quoted a passage from the book saying exactly where some mind reprogramming is mentioned.

I also quoted symptoms that other Indoctrinated people possessed and how that tied in with both the books... and the games... and the codex.

If your claim cannot match the behavior of known Indoctrinated people (and they haven't).. then you'll need to rethink how you view Indoctrination (and you do).

More Incentive for you to think about:

Shepard:  "You're afraid Sovereign is influencing you.  You're afraid he's controlling your thoughts."

Saren:  "I've studied the effects of Indoctrination.  The more control Sovereign exerts, the less capable the subject becomes."

As for your "Challenge"... if you're just looking for a sentence to be worded verbatum in a certain manner (I have no idea what specific quote you're looking for), then you've gone off topic to this discussion.  Stay on topic.

Time to wrap this up.

Another quote from the book (Before Indoctrination was mentioned and before TIM mentioned that Grayson was resisting the Reapers):

"With each passing hour Grayson could feel the whispers growing stronger.  More insistent.  Yet even though Cerberus had implanted him with this horrific alien technology, his will was still his own.  For now, he was still able to resist them.  And he intended to hold them at bay for as long as possible."

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juillet 2011 - 06:41 .

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I disagreed because you were incorrect in your assertion that TIM didn't know the state of the Reapers against Grayson (everything about Grayson was being monitored.. his brain patterns, heart rate, everything) or your implication that they weren't talking about indoctrination.  The book clearly stated (by TIM himself) that Grayson was fighting the Reapers at that time.  I've quoted this.

So was TIM's plan to study indoctrination or test confirmed data? Because if his plan was to study indoctrination all the monitoring devices in the world would not confirm that indoctrination was taking place. Any data recevied would be new and up to interpretation. 

For instance, I decide to study the effects of alcohol on the human body for the first time without any prior knowledge of how its effects will manifest. The subject's body temperature rises to 108 degrees, he starts urinating frequently, he is releasing alot of water from his rectum, he has the shakes, he is lathargic, weak, feels cold and is sensitive to light. These are symptoms I would initially associated with alcohol consumption. However, perhaps the data is actually an allergic reaction to the alcohol. Or, maybe there was a bacteria is the alcohol and he has an infection. Or he was already infected  and his current symptoms are just a coincidence.  Perhaps something he consummed earlier or an undeclared medication interacted with the alcohol negatively. 

Now I might make a comment like, "His immune system is reacting to the alcohol". Does that now mean that a common symptom when consuming alcoholic beverages is a 108 degree fever? Of course not. I would be mistaken. I did not have all the data. The experiment isn't even complete nor have I reproduced the test on other subjects.

My point is, as the pioneer of an new field of scientific study TIM is not in the position to state with absolute authority what the physical signs of indoctrination are.

Do you now see my point of view? Yes or No?

If no, what is wrong with my analogy/thinking?

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Additionally, Indoctrination was specifically talked about regarding Grayson and that's what the Red Sand was theorized to further along. This was approved by TIM in the novel.

And although Grayson was fighting the reapers, "fighting reapers" does not equal "fighting indoctrination". What you seem to be doing is taking anything the reapers do and classifiying it as indoctrination. As if indoctrination is the only tool they have to use against organics. Grayson's situation was physiologically akin to a collector or husk. The difference being that unlike husks, which are a dead bodies without any competing consciousness or a collector, who is indoctrinated and will not resist "direct control", Grayson was his own person.

So of course Grayson is going to resist an alien presense imposing itself on his body. That resistance however is not against indoctrination. He isn't fighting to hold on to his identity, his values or his beliefs. He is fighting to prevent his physical body from doing things outside his will.  His will is still intact. The reaper never indoctrinated it into their will. I'll say it again, Harbinger's posession of a collector is not indoctrinaion. Ergo, Grayson was not indoctrinated.   
 
Agree or disagree?

If disagree, why?

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

As has been stated before, Indoctrination serves various purposes to the end goal of serving the Reaper's will and even those who are Indoctrinated (Benezia, Kenson, Saren, and Grayson) were all able to resist at times. 

I'm going to partially say this in HDD terms. Benezia did not overcome indoctrination. Her situation is unique. She set up a seperate unindoctrinated partition of consciousness within her mind. While her primary consciousness, that which was open to stimuli, succumbed to the indoctrination, that seperate partition was uneffected. It was set with a subconscious trigger to manifest under a certain condition. This separated partition did not overcome indoctrination, it was never indoctrinated to begin with. Upon remerger with the indoctrinated consciousness there was a conflict of interest as the primary mind (or new one) began to meld with the previously partitioned mind (piece of the orignal Benezia).

Saren was mildly indoctrinated. Sovereign needed a top SPECTRE, not a mindless drone. This is explained in-game. However, even with mid indoctrination Saren was brought to willingly see the merits of the reaper's plan. By the end he was toting the superiority of oragnic-synthetic union, claiming it was a step in the right direction and was the future of all organics. Furthermore, Saren never resists of his own accord. Shepard had to question him, make him think about and analyze the sitaution. Shepard: Hey, they can't win without you. They need you. So why are you acting like there is no hope?"  Saren: Umm?... hmph? Well, I... I was... !!!!

Kenson never overcame indoctrination. She was indoctrinated to her last breath.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

No one who's Indoctrinated willingly works for the Reapers (even if they seem like they are).  They are put into a position where they do serve... they become different people... even if their higher mental faculties are always against the idea, eventually even that breaks down.

You keep talking about what pruposes indoctrination serves. What the repaers might do with an indoctrinated person is irrelevent. Before I can continue forward in this regard there is something that needs to set straight.

The question: What is indoctrination and what does it entail?

This is what I'd like to know from you, to set the record straight. Because right now, as I see it, you've given indoctrination such a wide meaning that it could literally be almost ANYTHING.  Modern day chemicals used in interrogations, AI hacking, deception, subterfuge, mind control chips, reanimating a dead corpse, hacking into armor and forcing movements out of the wearer, sound frequncies, a DO NOT ENTER sign, etc. etc.  

Furthermore, I would like know WHERE are you getting this idea that indcotrination IS anything other than subverting a person's will to that of the reapers' will?

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Saren was Indoctrinated but kept his sense of free will... he felt like he was in control and was fooled.  Grayson was never "completely" taken over 24/7, he always had times where he could fight back and regain control... but as more time passed, the harder it was for him to do so.

Saren was mildly indoctrinated. Sovereign needed a top SPECTRE, not a mindless drone. This is explained in-game. However, even with mid indoctrination Saren was brought to willingly see the merits of the reaper's plan. By the end he was toting the superiority of oragnic-synthetic union, claiming it was a step in the right direction and was the future of all organics.

Grayson never had the option to believe the reapers and then be convinced otherwise. His situation was completely different. His body was physically taken from him. During the times when he was not able to resist the reapers, he wasn't in agreement with them and he wasn't resisting mind alteration (Note: you can't resist subliminal stimuli. If you can resist it , it is on a conscious level that you can identify and is not subliminal). He was simply trapped in his own body (not resisting) or fighting for motor control (resisting). Have you ever experienced sleep paralysis? Well, I have. Imagine being conscious and not able to move your body. Now take that same situation and imagine if your body started moving around and doing things without your consent. That was Grayson's predicament. No indoctrination necessary.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Also remember the "whispers" and what happened to Grayson before and after the Red Sand injection.  Grayson succombed to the whispers after the Red Sand injection.  The same term is used by Kenson, who was clearly indoctrinated... and the same phenominon is mentioned in the codex... referring to... Indoctrination.  Those voices in Grayson's head didn't leave after the Red Sand... it got worse.

Red Sand weakens Grayson's concentration and focus. So of course the drugs made it easier for the reapers to win a battle of wills. I don't see how that helps your case. 

The reapers were in his head via quantum intanglement (or similar) technology. The voices were literally the reapers connecting to Grayson's mind. Granted, I strongly believe Kenson had implants installed. I say this because her eyes were glowing yellow like a collector under Harbinger's direct control. Even her dialog while sporting the yellow glowing eyes seemed to be coming from Harbinger directly. Notice the voice alteration and that she says, "We want Shepard alive." Also, assuming my theory is correct, note the difference when the reapers left indoctrinated Kenson (despair) vs when the reapers left unindoctrinated Grayson (relief).

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

While I understand the arguement, what's needed and what's done are two different things.  The reprogramming of the brain, the voices in the mind, the subliminal method of micro technology... they all fit Indoctrination.  If you want to seperate Indoctrination from his body's physical repurposing, that's up to you.  But the Reapers did make Grayson subject to their "suggestions" via Indoctrination.

You're nitpicking words. Indoctrination wasn't necessary and did not happen. Grayson was never reprogrammed. Me coercing you into drinking a bottle of vodka and then manipulating you into streaking naked on the front lawn is not me regrogramming you. You were effected by something temporarily. Under normal conditions you still would never run around naked in public.

You can't indoctrinate someone for 5 minutes. Indoctrination is a permanent change to a person's fundamental personality traits. Grayson's mind was never altered. He remained the same man he was before TIM ever caught him. He died, having never performed a single task on behalf of the reapers.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I disagree that you feel Grayson's brain wasn't reprogrammed (in this case, you are simply incorrect).  I also disagree that Grayson wasn't Indoctrinated.  Read what I said instead of skipping this time and you'll see that I not only defined what "Reprogramming" meant... but I also quoted a passage from the book saying exactly where some mind reprogramming is mentioned.

I read your entire post. I ignored it in that I did not respond to it. And I'm telling you, you have NOT provided anything to prove your case. I assume you believe you have based on the fact that you posted it. Fine. But don't think that because you think something is evidence, that that something is evidence. I have refuted your claims. It's up to you to defend your claims (i.e refute my refutation).

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

]As for your "Challenge"... if you're just looking for a sentence to be worded verbatum in a certain manner (I have no idea what specific quote you're looking for), then you've gone off topic to this discussion.  Stay on topic.

I'm quite on topic. This topic belongs to you and me. It's our debate. And no, it does not have to be verbatum. My request is simple: Provide a quote from Retribution stating that Paul Grayson was indoctrinated. 

I didn't make that challenge because I thought there was any chance you could produce anything stating Grayson was indoctrinated. Why do you think I made it?  It's a win/win situation for me as the burden of proof is yours.

You can extrapolate all you want, but your personal opinion about the meaning of certain paragraphs is far from objective proof. I'll save you some time and give you a hint: Nowhere in that book does it ever state Grayson was indoctrinated.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 09 juillet 2011 - 10:03 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Twilight God wrote...
So was TIM's plan to study indoctrination or test confirmed data? Because if his plan was to study indoctrination all the monitoring devices in the world would not confirm that indoctrination was taking place. Any data recevied would be new and up to interpretation. 

TIM's plan was to use Red Sand to make the Indoctrination run more smoothly by lowering Grayson's resistence.

For instance, I decide to study the effects of alcohol on the human body for the first time without any prior knowledge of how its effects will manifest. The subject's body temperature rises to 108 degrees, he starts urinating frequently, he is releasing alot of water from his rectum, he has the shakes, he is lathargic, weak, feels cold and is sensitive to light. These are symptoms I would initially associated with alcohol consumption. However, perhaps the data is actually an allergic reaction to the alcohol. Or, maybe there was a bacteria is the alcohol and he has an infection. Or he was already infected  and his current symptoms are just a coincidence.  Perhaps something he consummed earlier or an undeclared medication interacted with the alcohol negatively.

Lol, TIM is not new to the subject of Indoctrination... if they were they wouldn't even be able to use the word.  Put it together. 

Now I might make a comment like, "His immune system is reacting to the alcohol". Does that now mean that a common symptom when consuming alcoholic beverages is a 108 degree fever? Of course not. I would be mistaken. I did not have all the data. The experiment isn't even complete nor have I reproduced the test on other subjects.

If his immune system is "reacting to the alchohol" then that means the alchohol is there for his immune system to react to.  In Grayson's case, they were saying Indoctrination... time to wrap this up.

My point is, as the pioneer of an new field of scientific study TIM is not in the position to state with absolute authority what the physical signs of indoctrination are.

Do you now see my point of view? Yes or No?

If no, what is wrong with my analogy/thinking?

I've always seen your point of view, I just disagree with it.  TIM is not new to the subject of Indoctrination... he (and his team) may well know more about the subject than anyone.

And although Grayson was fighting the reapers, "fighting reapers" does not equal "fighting indoctrination". What you seem to be doing is taking anything the reapers do and classifiying it as indoctrination. As if indoctrination is the only tool they have to use against organics. Grayson's situation was physiologically akin to a collector or husk. The difference being that unlike husks, which are a dead bodies without any competing consciousness or a collector, who is indoctrinated and will not resist "direct control", Grayson was his own person.

So of course Grayson is going to resist an alien presense imposing itself on his body. That resistance however is not against indoctrination. He isn't fighting to hold on to his identity, his values or his beliefs. He is fighting to prevent his physical body from doing things outside his will.  His will is still intact. The reaper never indoctrinated it into their will. I'll say it again, Harbinger's posession of a collector is not indoctrinaion. Ergo, Grayson was not indoctrinated.   
 
Agree or disagree?

If disagree, why?

Again, put it together... they said Indoctrination... they said Red Sand would ultmately lower Grayson's resistence to it... the book goes on to show that this is true... result... Indoctrination.

This shouldn't be hard.

I'm going to partially say this in HDD terms. Benezia did not overcome indoctrination. Her situation is unique. She set up a seperate unindoctrinated partition of consciousness within her mind. While her primary consciousness, that which was open to stimuli, succumbed to the indoctrination, that seperate partition was uneffected. It was set with a subconscious trigger to manifest under a certain condition. This separated partition did not overcome indoctrination, it was never indoctrinated to begin with. Upon remerger with the indoctrinated consciousness there was a conflict of interest as the primary mind (or new one) began to meld with the previously partitioned mind (piece of the orignal Benezia).

No one overcame Indoctrination (unless they're controlled by something else).  Even Saren could not overcome Indoctrination... he literally said it was too late for him and that Sovereign was too strong.  There has been no cure for Indoctrination even if there were defenses.

Saren was mildly indoctrinated. Sovereign needed a top SPECTRE, not a mindless drone. This is explained in-game. However, even with mid indoctrination Saren was brought to willingly see the merits of the reaper's plan. By the end he was toting the superiority of oragnic-synthetic union, claiming it was a step in the right direction and was the future of all organics. Furthermore, Saren never resists of his own accord. Shepard had to question him, make him think about and analyze the sitaution. Shepard: Hey, they can't win without you. They need you. So why are you acting like there is no hope?"  Saren: Umm?... hmph? Well, I... I was... !!!!

Kenson never overcame indoctrination. She was indoctrinated to her last breath.

Fighting Indoctrination is not overcoming it.  Saren was Indoctrinated and made to think he was right in his new course of action.   All Indoctrinated people feel this way.  The notion of "control" is mentioned by Saren regarding Indoctrination... further proof that it's not just a "suggestion" or "willing allegiance."

I understand your train of thought, but you've got to add up the facts... all of the facts presented here void your theory.

You keep talking about what pruposes indoctrination serves. What the repaers might do with an indoctrinated person is irrelevent. Before I can continue forward in this regard there is something that needs to set straight.

The question: What is indoctrination and what does it entail?

This is what I'd like to know from you, to set the record straight. Because right now, as I see it, you've given indoctrination such a wide meaning that it could literally be almost ANYTHING.  Modern day chemicals used in interrogations, AI hacking, deception, subterfuge, mind control chips, reanimating a dead corpse, hacking into armor and forcing movements out of the wearer, sound frequncies, a DO NOT ENTER sign, etc. etc.  

Furthermore, I would like know WHERE are you getting this idea that indcotrination IS anything other than subverting a person's will to that of the reapers' will?

I've been telling you where this information has been coming from.  The books, the games' narrative, and the codex.  And the subverting of a person's will to that of the Reaper's will is exactly what happened to Grayson... I posted direct examples of that as well.

If you do not read them... then you'll always be in denial.

Saren was mildly indoctrinated. Sovereign needed a top SPECTRE, not a mindless drone. This is explained in-game. However, even with mid indoctrination Saren was brought to willingly see the merits of the reaper's plan. By the end he was toting the superiority of oragnic-synthetic union, claiming it was a step in the right direction and was the future of all organics.

Grayson never had the option to believe the reapers and then be convinced otherwise. His situation was completely different. His body was physically taken from him. During the times when he was not able to resist the reapers, he wasn't in agreement with them and he wasn't resisting mind alteration (Note: you can't resist subliminal stimuli. If you can resist it , it is on a conscious level that you can identify and is not subliminal). He was simply trapped in his own body (not resisting) or fighting for motor control (resisting). Have you ever experienced sleep paralysis? Well, I have. Imagine being conscious and not able to move your body. Now take that same situation and imagine if your body started moving around and doing things without your consent. That was Grayson's predicament. No indoctrination necessary.

Incorrect, Grayson's mind was altered, the book literally says this... he was made to want what the Reapers wanted him to want.  Please read what I've been saying and showing you... I'm quoting direct from the source.

Red Sand weakens Grayson's concentration and focus. So of course the drugs made it easier for the reapers to win a battle of wills. I don't see how that helps your case. 

Take the rest of what that passage says... I'm quite sure the word Indoctrination comes up somewhere.  If you don't resist Indoctrination, you get Indoctrinated... there's nothing else to talk about here.  Not to mention that the symptoms of Indoctrination (as listed in the codex and experienced by the victims in the games) are manifested in Grayson (to varying extremes).

Lets not be redundant... I've been posting new information from the source... all proof... now it's your turn.

The burden of proof was mine, and that proof has been presented.  Now it's on you to disprove it.  If you cannot, then lets put this to rest.

Counter with game facts.. or nothing at all.  You can't disagree because "You don't believe it's supposed to be that way."  Let the games and novels be the judge... not you... and you'll see that the point has been proven long ago.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

P.S. If you're no longer talking about the subject... but instead a specific arrangement of words... then you are off topic. Stay on topic.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 12:29 .

[ZLurps]

It's interesting debate that's going on here.

My take on this is that we don't really know enough about how the Reaper nanides work to reach to reach any solid conclusions yet. It might be that BioWare has just decided to leave what they exactly mean with indoctrination very open because that makes game lore easier to manage for them. Frankly, even we get bits and pieces about indoctrination and husks from games and novels, it's still a one big mess.

Before I go to Grayson, below is how I think indoctrination works.

I think indoctrination is multi-phase process. I think first phase is to get subjects fascinated by using subliminal methods to keep the subject in the area of influence.
Once indoctrination has reached the first level of reprogramming, that subject won't really care about other things, sleeping, eating, seeing and hearing things (we read data logs about this happening in plot and side missions) second phase of indoctrination kicks in.

In second phase subjects body starts producing Reaper nanides. There can be major physical modifications, turning subject to husk or nanides can remain in their host in more passive role, serving as remote control.
Remember Nanides communicate by using QEC, that would explain how Benezia could hear Sovereign's signal and demand to eliminate Shepard.

It's mentioned in games that indoctrination is subtle from subjects point of view. I think it's first more like a suggestion than demand.
Say, a scientist who is really interested about some relic from the start and is motivated to find out more about it start to think like. "This is just too fascinating... and I stayed awake all night long when I was in the university, I maybe old but not that old... I can do that again because this is going to lead in breakthrough..."

Then if there weren't indoctrination working there scientist would have different kind of approach: "I'll be damned if this doesn't lead in to some sort of breakthrough, but I must keep myself in shape, eat, rest and keep documenting everything I learn."
Well, maybe that isn't really that great example, but I wish you get what I mean, subject can't tell his/her own thoughts from others.


That said, what happened to Grayson has bothered me as well. It doesn't match with information we got in ME about indoctrination very well and I also think that the process Grayson went through made him more like a husk than anything like Saren, Benezia or Keyson. Then, if husks can perform such difficult tasks like Grayson did after TIM pumped nanides in him, why weren't Keyson's science team in Arrival DLC huskified?

My fan ****** is, that maybe Grayson become some sort of agent / husk hybrid, perhaps because of unusual way he got nanides in his body and technology TIM used is likely to be very crude in comparison to what Reaper have.

Modifié par ZLurps, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:14 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Eshaye wrote...

No, you are completely wrong actually. Grayson was quite OBVIOUSLY indoctrinated. Really the descrition could NOT possibly be ANY clearer. That's why Raven couldn't believe you'd actually say he wasn't. Yes the Reapers directly controlled his body AS WELL but they also manipulated how his body and brain functioned to get to do what they wanted. Making him believe going towards someone was a good idea while his first idea was going away.. 

There is no way around that one sorry. 

The Reapers will reprogram your brain the way they want to by any technology they've developped, I'm not clear on how it is they are able to latch on to any Reaper tech but it seems pretty obvious there's something inherent in all of it that directly connects the tech to the Reaper 'mind'. 

Also the ME lore is quite clear on what Indoctrination is and no amount of you disecting it and trying to say you're right and everyone else is wrong about the terminology and what it actually means is going to change it. 

I'd have to agree with this.

@ZLurps, given what we know about Indoctrination, it's the only fit.  The Reapers used Grayson as more than just a tool... just like they used Saren as more than just a tool.  Neither were brain-wiped or had their mind completely taken over... but they both did have their mind altered to suit the Reaper's purposes.  And the trademark "whispers" are unmistakable.

We also can surmise that when Indoctrination is at its highest point, the victim's 'will' becomes completely gone... as Saren assured Shepard that his will was still his own at that point (because he was aware of what Indoctrination could lead to)... just like Grayson initially felt that his will was still his own... this changes as time goes on... that's how Indoctrination works.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 06:22 .

[ZLurps]

@Mr. Gogeta34
I think The Twilight God have many good points in his posts. It's just that what we know about indoctrination is bit's and pieces all over the place and making solid conclusions is very difficult.

I think debate might be more fruitful if we can agree about if there are different methods and also different reasons for indoctrination. Say, for example how much sense it makes that Cerberus science team was huskified but team on asteroid on Arrival DLC weren't (ok Keyson makes a good agent but how in the world wouldn't member of Cerberus science team wouldn't).

I have some fan ****** reasons for these things, like the derelict Reaper was brain dead and nanides locked to just it's signal, but in the end, we can't really know.


Edit: I don't agree that Saren and Benezia weren't indoctrinated. I actually think they kinda present extreme examples (as they were exceptional characters) of indoctrination and fighting it. In Benezia's case there was real "lights out, nanides take over" effect, like in the case of Grayson, and in Saren's case, he was able to pull of that last trick he did (at least in paragon ending of ME) before that.

Modifié par ZLurps, 10 juillet 2011 - 08:08 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Codex clearly states that there are different methods and the Indoctrinated people (Benezia, Saren, and Kenson) all show different reasons and manipulations for Indoctrination.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 08:29 .

[The Twilight God]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

For instance, I decide to study the effects of alcohol on the human body for the first time without any prior knowledge of how its effects will manifest. The subject's body temperature rises to 108 degrees, he starts urinating frequently, he is releasing alot of water from his rectum, he has the shakes, he is lathargic, weak, feels cold and is sensitive to light. These are symptoms I would initially associated with alcohol consumption. However, perhaps the data is actually an allergic reaction to the alcohol. Or, maybe there was a bacteria is the alcohol and he has an infection. Or he was already infected and his current symptoms are just a coincidence. Perhaps something he consummed earlier or an undeclared medication interacted with the alcohol negatively.

Lol, TIM is not new to the subject of Indoctrination... if they were they wouldn't even be able to use the word.  Put it together. 

Put it together? Let me "put it together" for you.

This as a first time experiement. You'll note that Dr. Nuri says, "We have no baselines. No data to extrapolate from. It's all theoretical. Nobody's ever tried anything even remotely close to this kind of procedure before!" (pg 90)

TIM explains what they are doing is studying how the Reapers controlled the Collectors. He goes over quantum entanglement technology, how the nanites were recovered from collector bodies, how he expected Grayson to transform physically and how the purpose of the experiment was to study the huskification process in order to counter it. You'll also note that TIM and the scientist refer to estimates, not hard data. Read pages 86-91.

So now, go back to my previous post I've left in quotes above. How is TIM or any scientist participating the experiement in any position to state authoritatively that indoctrination was taking place? I agree, it's a reasonable assumption given the fact that they are dealing with reaper technology. But an assumption is not the same as a reality.

"The timeline was only an estimate. Our research strongly suggests indoctrination and repurposing varies greatly depending on the strength of the subject."(pg 115)

Their research "suggests". Note, their reasearch did not conclude anything. The exact details of this research is unknown, but the fact that they rely of theoretical estimations instead of hard data is revealing. It is obvious that they are doing alot of guess work.

Grayson's body was repurposed. Yes.

Indoctrinated. No.

Everything that happened to Grayson while in that cell was overt. The reapers applied no subliminal tactics. Grayson was aware of their presense and their brute force control of his body (which I quote further down). Indoctrination did not take place. Even if you make the case that the process of indoctrination started after he escaped, the fact that Grayson never gave in and was himself throughout the entire novel proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was not indoctrinated.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I've always seen your point of view, I just disagree with it.  TIM is not new to the subject of Indoctrination... he (and his team) may well know more about the subject than anyone.

You base this on what exactly?

Actual quotes please. No making claims that the book says this, or the games show that, while not offering any actual proof of said claim. You're real good at making wild unsubstantiated claims.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Again, put it together... they said Indoctrination... they said Red Sand would ultmately lower Grayson's resistence to it... the book goes on to show that this is true... result... Indoctrination.

Read pgs 123-127

Those pages detail how the reapers were only effecting his body while on the Cerberus station, not his mind. From Grayson's first hand account, the red sand put him into a narcotic bliss that keep him from concentrating.

Here are some samples:

"When Grayson woke up, he was horrified to discover he was a prisoner in his own body. He could see and hear everything around him, but it seemed surreal, almost as if he was watching a projection on a vid screen[...]" (pg 123)

"He rolled over in the cot, spun to put his feet on the floor, stood up, and began to pace restlessly about the cell--but none of these actions came from his own volition. His body refused to respond to his commands; he was powerless to control his own actions. He had become a meat puppet, and instrument of the Reaper will."(pg 123)

"The hit of red sand was wearing off, allowing him to regain his focus and concentration, his most valuable weapons against the aliens inside his head." (pg 125-126)

Unlike you, I actually base what I say on the book. I don't just make stuff up and falsely claim it's in the book or game.

It is never stated that Grayson was indoctrinated. Period. You have no basis to claim that TIM's assumption that indoctrination was taking place means indoctrination was actually taking place. You have no basis whatsoever to claim that TIM is an indoctrination expert who has studied it on other test subjects. You are making things up as you go along because you are too proud to admit when you are wrong. 

You can make all the snide immature comments you like. Your guise of petulant arrogance does not hide your frustration over the fact that you have nothing. You were challenged to provide a single quote stating Grayson was indoctrinated. You failed. And you know it.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:26 .