53 réponses à ce sujet

[GamerJ]

hey guys i have heard that udina was the best to pick as councillor, some people sayed it has been confirmed by bioware is this true? that would be kinda lame after everything anderson did for u<_< in both my paragon saves i picked anderson.

[tobynator89]

anderson resigns from all his diplomatic duties regardless of your choices. Plus side is he wipes out half of cerberus.

[AngelicMachinery]

Udina is a politician, he knows how to grease the wheels, knows when to pitch a fit... and knows that sometimes a cigar isn't just a cigar. Anderson is a warrior, he has good intentions... but when it comes to the game of politics he's not exactly experienced.

[slimshedim]

I even picked him in renegade saves and can't imagine why Udina should be a better pick.

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Udina is a politician, he knows
how to grease the wheels, knows when to pitch a fit... and knows that
sometimes a cigar isn't just a cigar. Anderson is a warrior, he has
good intentions... but when it comes to the game of politics he's not
exactly experienced.

So what? He can adapt and learn. Udina is just a selfish snake, the stereotype of the unlikeable politician jerk, he actually is.

Modifié par slimshedim, 29 juin 2011 - 06:00 .

[Travie]

I always thought that the Udina pick would pay off in the end, just because he seemed to be a better politician.

Time will tell, however... It certainly didn't in 2.

[nhsk]

There is no canon, and the only real difference between Udina and Anderson so far is that you don't get your Spectre status reinstated in ME2 with a dead council and Udina as ambassador.

[tobynator89]

nhsk wrote...

There is no canon, and the only real difference between Udina and Anderson so far is that you don't get your Spectre status reinstated in ME2 with a dead council and Udina as ambassador.

Anderson's resignation as a councillor/advisor to udina is indeed canon, whether udina replaces him as a councillor or not is the question we should be asking ourselves.

[Chewin]

In games where you have to make a choice -like Udina/Anderson one- most guys choses the one that gives you the biggest smile.

[AngelicMachinery]

slimshedim wrote...

I even picked him in renegade saves and can't imagine why Udina should be a better pick.

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Udina is a politician, he knows
how to grease the wheels, knows when to pitch a fit... and knows that
sometimes a cigar isn't just a cigar. Anderson is a warrior, he has
good intentions... but when it comes to the game of politics he's not
exactly experienced.

So what? He can adapt and learn. Udina is just a selfish snake, the stereotype of the unlikeable politician jerk, he actually is.

Of course he can adapt and learn,  I'm not saying that Anderson is the wrong choice.  I'm just saying that Udina would technically make a better politician because well...  he is.  Anderson does offer other benifits but,  Udina will constantly fight for whats best for humanity while Anderson will be more prone to compromise...  both of these methods offer a pay off of course...  but,  I don't think you should dismiss Udina's political capabilities just because he stabbed Shepard in the back.

[Dean_the_Young]

GamerJ wrote...

hey guys i have heard that udina was the best to pick as councillor, some people sayed it has been confirmed by bioware is this true? that would be kinda lame after everything anderson did for u<_< in both my paragon saves i picked anderson.

Here's the deal:

In side-material, specifically the book Retribution, the writers made a call for a default decision that Udina was chosen as Councilor by Shepard. And... that's it. In no other medium, interview, writer deliberation, or any other form of showing intent has Bioware ever implied that, if you chose Anderson, Udina will be Counselor anyway in ME3. Drew (the writer of Retribution) has refuted the idea of a 'canon' in terms of Shepard's choices, and said that calling Udina the Counselor made it easier to write the book with Anderson as the main character, in so much that Anderson wouldn't be clearly weighed down by obligations (if he was the Counsilor).

Anderson didn't resign as Councilor in the book: he was never Councilor at all.

Now, what does that mean? What does that change? Absolutely nothing by necessity.

Retribution, nearly plot point for plot point, could have occured the same had Anderson been Councilor, the main difference being that instead of Admiral Anderson cooperating with the Turians without higher authorization, Counselor Anderson did so instead. Pretty much everything could have occured the same: Aria's mercs still attacking the Turians and taking Anderson prisoner, Anderson breaking out with Kai Leng's help, and a rush to stop the Reaper Avatar while Anderson can't, for whatever reasons, use his powers as Counselor to replace kickass commando skills.

Come ME3? Councilor Anderson could shuck Alliance responsibilities to lead the Resistance on Earth, as opposed to Admiral Anderson shucking Alliance responsibilities to lead the resistance on Earth. Ambassador Udina, as opposed to Councilor Udina, trying to draw things together without him.

Could be. Can be.

Only ME3 will show whether Udina has been auto-made to Councilor yet. Nothing else has claimed retcon of the games decisions. Nowhere has anyone at Bioware claimed Udina was the right choice, or the best choice, or the only choice.

All that has been done, for some side material, is the presumption that Udina was the choice... in a context in which the choice wouldn't make much of a difference at all.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 juin 2011 - 06:13 .

[Legion_Geth]

Chewin3 wrote...

In games where you have to make a choice -like Udina/Anderson one- most guys choses the one that gives you the biggest smile.

Yup, pretty much this.

[Medhia Nox]

I chose Anderson, but I admit that it's based on "who I like" and not who I think would make the better politician.

I don't mind the change - and I don't feel hated by Bioware for having them exchange Anderson for Udina.

[Han Shot First]

Bioware decided to render your choice for councillor largely irrelevant, since apparently Anderson will resign anyway in one of the books and Udina replaces him. The only thing that differs is that if you choose Anderson, he'll reinstate your Spectre status in ME2. But that only matters as far as the story goes, as far as gameplay in ME2 it doesn't have any effect. No confrontations are resolved differently depending on whether or not your Spectre status was reinstated.

But even so, I'd still pick Anderson. It's nice to get the Spectre status back in ME2, and Udina just seems like a poor choice even if you are a full on renegade. He spends most of ME1 trying to stonewall you, and gives you the "Ah yes, Reapers" treatment. Even if you agree with his views on humanity's role in the galaxy, why would you vote for a man who is likely to throw obstacles in your path to stopping the Reapers? Like the Turian councillor, he doesn't believe in them either. Anderson is the only person you can trust in government, when it comes to the Reapers. Every one else thinks you've lost your marbles.

[GamerJ]

but udina never listen to shepard and always fork him over to the council when he got the change to get better himself with it =-\\ so i think its kinda lame that he would be the best chooise becuse i bet 80% of the people playing mass effect choose anderson as councillor

[Dean_the_Young]

slimshedim wrote...

I even picked him in renegade saves and can't imagine why Udina should be a better pick.

Work on that imagination. And perhaps a wider history of the capability of even well-meaning military officials being placed in positions of high political power.

Hint: the successes are the exceptional, not the norm.

So what? He can adapt and learn. Udina is just a selfish snake, the stereotype of the unlikeable politician jerk, he actually is.

He's also, not to take Anderson's own admissions out of context, damn good at his job.

Which is to be a politician.

[Travie]

I went with Udina in my Renegade choices, just because of the line "I'm tired of this antihuman bull****!"

Made me laugh.

[nhsk]

tobynator89 wrote...

nhsk wrote...

There is no canon, and the only real difference between Udina and Anderson so far is that you don't get your Spectre status reinstated in ME2 with a dead council and Udina as ambassador.

Anderson's resignation as a councillor/advisor to udina is indeed canon, whether udina replaces him as a councillor or not is the question we should be asking ourselves.

Either way he is ambassador (presumably) in ME3.

But that still doesn't making the choice of Anderson non-canon.

[tobynator89]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GamerJ wrote...

hey guys i have heard that udina was the best to pick as councillor, some people sayed it has been confirmed by bioware is this true? that would be kinda lame after everything anderson did for u<_< in both my paragon saves i picked anderson.

Here's the deal:

In side-material, specifically the book Retribution, the writers made a call for a default decision that Udina was chosen as Councilor by Shepard. And... that's it. In no other medium, interview, writer deliberation, or any other form of showing intent has Bioware ever implied that, if you chose Anderson, Udina will be Counselor anyway in ME3. Drew (the writer of Retribution) has refuted the idea of a 'canon' in terms of Shepard's choices, and said that calling Udina the Counselor made it easier to write the book with Anderson as the main character, in so much that Anderson wouldn't be clearly weighed down by obligations (if he was the Counsilor).

Now, what does that mean? What does that change? Absolutely nothing by necessity.

Retribution, nearly plot point for plot point, could have occured the same had Anderson been Councilor, the main difference being that instead of Admiral Anderson cooperating with the Turians without higher authorization, Counselor Anderson did so instead. Pretty much everything could have occured the same: Aria's mercs still attacking the Turians and taking Anderson prisoner, Anderson breaking out with Kai Leng's help, and a rush to stop the Reaper Avatar while Anderson can't, for whatever reasons, use his powers as Counselor to replace kickass commando skills.

Come ME3? Councilor Anderson could shuck Alliance responsibilities to lead the Resistance on Earth, as opposed to Admiral Anderson shucking Alliance responsibilities to lead the resistance on Earth. Ambassador Udina, as opposed to Councilor Udina, trying to draw things together without him.

Could be. Can be.

Only ME3 will show whether Udina has been auto-made to Councilor yet. Nothing else has claimed retcon of the games decisions. Nowhere has anyone at Bioware claimed Udina was the right choice, or the best choice, or the only choice.

All that has been done, for some side material, is the presumption that Udina was the choice... in a context in which the choice wouldn't make much of a difference at all.

It was never stated in the book whether or not he was a councillor or advisor. merely that he had a diplomatic position. I interpreted it that the writers wanted to make any info regarding the choices you made in the game as ambigous as possible, telling the story in such a way as to make the events in the book canon regardless of the choices shepard made.

[PhantomSpectre]

Nervermind.

Modifié par PhantomSpectre, 29 juin 2011 - 06:17 .

[GarrusV4karian]

Legion_Geth wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

In games where you have to make a choice -like Udina/Anderson one- most guys choses the one that gives you the biggest smile.

Yup, pretty much this.

Seconded. This same debat is going on in the DA:O thread about Bhelen and Harrowant,, and eveyone chose Harrowent because he was a "nicer" person than Bhelen<_<

[Dean_the_Young]

tobynator89 wrote...

It was never stated in the book whether or not he was a councillor or advisor. merely that he had a diplomatic position. I interpreted it that the writers wanted to make any info regarding the choices you made in the game as ambigous as possible, telling the story in such a way as to make the events in the book canon regardless of the choices shepard made.

Drew was asked about this very matter. He clarified: Shepard chose Udina (in the context of the books).

Yes, Anderson and Udina's exact roles were largely ignored, because they weren't very important to the story of the book. In using Anderson at all, they had to make a decision about which was which (because otherwise the total vagueness would lead to 'plot hole!'), and they chose to say Udina was Councilor.

The only other alternative, of course, would have been to make Anderson Councilor, and a few particular lines to that respect... which would leave us with the same delimma in reverse.



What's important isn't who was what: what's important that nowhere in Retribution is it made 'canon' that Councilor Anderson ever resigned from the position, or that Udina is the canon Councilor going into ME3.

Now, they may do just that in ME3, and make Udina Councilor, but it is not required by the standing lore.

[Han Shot First]

GarrusV4karian wrote...

Legion_Geth wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

In games where you have to make a choice -like Udina/Anderson one- most guys choses the one that gives you the biggest smile.

Yup, pretty much this.

Seconded. This same debat is going on in the DA:O thread about Bhelen and Harrowant,, and eveyone chose Harrowent because he was a "nicer" person than Bhelen<_<

I chose Bhelen, and my character was more of white knight sort. He clearly had the better vision for his nation, even if he was morally bankrupt.

But with Mass Effect it is a little different in that while Udina may be the better politician, unlike Anderson he doesn't take the Reapers seriously. He gives you the "Ah yes, Reapers" treatment.

[slimshedim]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

slimshedim wrote...

I even picked him in renegade saves and can't imagine why Udina should be a better pick.

Work on that imagination. And perhaps a wider history of the capability of even well-meaning military officials being placed in positions of high political power.

Hint: the successes are the exceptional, not the norm.

So what? He can adapt and learn. Udina is just a selfish snake, the stereotype of the unlikeable politician jerk, he actually is.

He's also, not to take Anderson's own admissions out of context, damn good at his job.

Which is to be a politician.

So, even in computergames we want to be ruled by corrupt, selfish, false, backstabbing, powerhungry douches?

Modifié par slimshedim, 29 juin 2011 - 06:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

True as that is, Han, it's a shame: Udina would have been far better in ME2 had he, in an assholish way, explained why they don't admit the Reapers openly. Udina, like Anderson, felt like he believed, but like Anderson more or less smothered by the Council's own disbelief.

And since Udina doesn't like going against the political winds...


I think both Council's missed a chance for justifying a better military buildup in ME2. Even the Paragon Council could have been, with some pushing by Anderson/Udina, 'Reapers? We dismiss them. But we still got to build up against the Geth still behind the Veil.' So a buildup, not against the Reapers, but still against a race of sentient machines w/ star ships. Would also fit into their 'Sovereign was a Geth ship' belief.


The Renegade Council, in my mind, should believe in the Reapers... but not be believed by the former Council Races. The other Council Races call it Human propoganda to justify their crew, and so while the Human Council actually does try and concentrate against the Reapers, it faces the problem of having to drag the Asari/Turians/Salarians along.


Unless inequality is a point in and of itself, both Councils could have been justified in both being seen as preparing with non-ideal effects: the Paragon Council is focusing on a different, much lesser enemy. The Renegade Council is focused on the right enemy, but isn't believed by most.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 juin 2011 - 06:30 .

[slimshedim]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

True as that is, Han, it's a shame: Udina would have been far better in ME2 had he, in an assholish way, explained why they don't admit the Reapers openly. Udina, like Anderson, felt like he believed, but like Anderson more or less smothered by the Council's own disbelief.

And since Udina doesn't like going against the political winds...


I think both Council's missed a chance for justifying a better military buildup in ME2. Even the Paragon Council could have been, with some pushing by Anderson/Udina, 'Reapers? We dismiss them. But we still got to build up against the Geth still behind the Veil.' So a buildup, not against the Reapers, but still against a race of sentient machines w/ star ships. Would also fit into their 'Sovereign was a Geth ship' belief.


The Renegade Council, in my mind, should believe in the Reapers... but not be believed by the former Council Races. The other Council Races call it Human propoganda to justify their crew, and so while the Human Council actually does try and concentrate against the Reapers, it faces the problem of having to drag the Asari/Turians/Salarians along.


Unless inequality is a point in and of itself, both Councils could have been justified in both being seen as preparing with non-ideal effects: the Paragon Council is focusing on a different, much lesser enemy. The Renegade Council is focused on the right enemy, but isn't believed by most.

Good points.