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[Thargorichiban]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

By your logic displayed in this thread the Geth have never been sentient and have only done what they have been programmed to do.

Wow, you get it. I'm impressed.

Thargorichiban wrote...

If you follow through that logic like a certain Turian Councillor you might deduce that since the Geth attacked the Council it was directly the Quarians fault for creating the Geth in the first place!

No, you couldn't. Though you could hold the quarians responsible for the geth's actions, you couldn't really punish them now could you? They already aren't recognized as an associate member of the Council.

To get back to the other topic:

The geth actually invaded and attacked the galaxy and the other races were still unwilling to do anything about it except defend themselves. They weren't interested in taking the fight to the geth.

Not true. After the events of Mass Effect 1 and addressed in the beginning of Mass Effect 2 the Council and the Alliance were focused on eliminating the last remnants of the Geth outside the Perseus Veil. They were even sending Shepard against them.

[Smeelia]

Thargorichiban wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The geth actually invaded and attacked the galaxy and the other races were still unwilling to do anything about it except defend themselves. They weren't interested in taking the fight to the geth.

Not true. After the events of Mass Effect 1 and addressed in the beginning of Mass Effect 2 the Council and the Alliance were focused on eliminating the last remnants of the Geth outside the Perseus Veil. They were even sending Shepard against them.

There was also Project Overlord and other anti-geth programmes such as the Quarian one, the purpose of which being to find a defence against the Geth and/or make them useable.

[Smeelia]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Smeelia wrote...

There was also Project Overlord and other anti-geth programmes such as the Quarian one, the purpose of which being to find a defence against the Geth and/or make them useable.

Your point being?

Why would they stop? They'd have even more reason to go ahead if the Quarians proved the Geth were able to be controlled and used (they'd also have potential shortcut options available, a dream for the STG, Cerberus and similar).

Modifié par Smeelia, 29 juin 2011 - 08:48 .

[Thargorichiban]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

By your logic displayed in this thread the Geth have never been sentient and have only done what they have been programmed to do.

Wow, you get it. I'm impressed.

Thargorichiban wrote...

If you follow through that logic like a certain Turian Councillor you might deduce that since the Geth attacked the Council it was directly the Quarians fault for creating the Geth in the first place!

No, you couldn't. Though you could hold the quarians responsible for the geth's actions, you couldn't really punish them now could you? They already aren't recognized as an associate member of the Council.

Just to take this apart: you don't need to be an associate member of the Council for them to declare war on you and threaten you. Or send in waves of Spectres to deal with Quarian plans to get their hands on weapons of mass destruction (the Geth).

[nitrog100]

It doesn't make any sense at all why that idea wouldn't work. The whole situation with the Quarians and the Geth is pretty confusing.

[Raygereio]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...
By your logic displayed in this thread the Geth have never been sentient and have only done what they have been programmed to do.

Wow, you get it. I'm impressed.

There're two problems with that position though:
1: Everything we've been told about the history of the Geth contradicts this. Mind you; I accept that the possibillity exists that the Quarians lied for some weird reason about this and the Geth simply don't know the difference between self-determination and executing a program.
However:
2. Why would the Quarians lie about this? What could they have hoped to gain with that lie and what do they hope they gain with maintaining it? Also if the Quarians lied about this then the Quarians that made the Geth are so incredibly incompetent and stupid that it defies imagination.

[PhantomSpectre]

Thargorichiban wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
It's not genocide if it's a machine :innocent:

Can you think of a better word for it?  Or is this one of those things where just because something isn't made of meat it can't really be anything outside of wires and computer programs?

Maybe not a word, but a phrase: "Correcting a mistake."

So is that what Reapers are doing then? "Correcting the mistake of organic life?"

Well Sovereign does say that organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. And that Reapers are pinnacle of evolution and existence.

So, you could say that Reapers are correcting than mistake every 50k years. And it's even better if they could benefit form it.

[Smeelia]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Smeelia wrote...

Why would they stop?

They wouldn't. I never said they would. I don't even know where you got that idea from.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Smeelia wrote...

They're not going to just ignore the Geth now that the Quarians control them,

Why? They were content to ignore the geth for centuries when the quarians didn't control them.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Projects like Overlord would be as relevant as they are now. There will not be any new incentive to destroy or control the geth.

Agreed, that's pretty much what I said.

Modifié par Smeelia, 29 juin 2011 - 08:59 .

[Thargorichiban]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

Just to take this apart: you don't need to be an associate member of the Council for them to declare war on you and threaten you.

Why would the quarians threaten anybody? They'd be far more concerned with protecting hteir single world.

Once again, NIMRODS, if the Council wasn't willing to declare war on humanity or the batarians or the geth or any other race that built up its military then they won't declare war on the quarians just becuase the quarians suddenly grew some teeth.

Name calling again? A bit uncalled for in a civil discussion.

Since you took my quotation out of context, let me put it back in: you had agreed given my previous argument that the Quarians could have been held responsible for the Geth's actions. This would have also included the attack on the Citadel.

Saphra Deden wrote...

No,
you couldn't. Though you could hold the quarians responsible for the
geth's actions, you couldn't really punish them now could you? They
already aren't recognized as an associate member of the Council.

Your argument had been that since they weren't a recognized member of the Council they couldn't be punished. My response was to this statement which I had addressed.

And why might they attack or threaten the Quarians if they enslaved the Geth? Maybe because the Council considers them to be weapons that they do not wish to be wielded with an independent species outside the pervue of Council Space.

[Raygereio]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Such as?

Are you serious? How about all of Tali's dialogue about the Geth-Quarian history in ME1? 
A Geth ask it's creator "Am I alive?": this indicated sentience and independent thought, why would a machine with no thought but the ones programmed into it ask such a question? 
Now we can infer this was not a preprogrammed behavious because the Quarians freaked the hell out. We can also infer it wasn't simply a prank from one Quarian on another because Legion states this question was asked on several seperate occasions.

[Raygereio]

Saphra Deden wrote...
"Am I alive?" doesn't sound as radical to me as it does to you, clearly.

Any indication that your creation is not only learning, but is showing attempts to understand itself ought to be a really big deal.
But let me you ask you something: why then in dear Ao's name did the Quarians collectively shat enough bricks to build the great wall of China when their artificial workforce was working as intended?

Modifié par Raygereio, 29 juin 2011 - 09:14 .

[RolandX9]

Wow. The flame war that has erupted from my question about a simple, logical solution has almost convinced me that there can never be peace between the geth and the quarians -- if we've got people on a forum with no actual skin in the game unable to accept a fictional peaceful solution, how in Athame's name can the geth and the quarians?

Well, except there's that almost. And it's named Shepard. S/He can convince a krogan demigod to help him destroy a genophage "cure," talk a hardcore quarian patriot and a geth platform into playing nice, get a Cerberus apologist and a woman tortured by Cerberus for her entire childhood to not kill each other, and break a super-soldier cyborg's conditioning long enough to get him to self-terminate. Would the geth and the quarians ever make peace on their own? No way. Could Shepard pull it off? As a side mission.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Raygereio wrote...

1: Everything we've been told about the history of the Geth contradicts this....

Such as?

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 29 juin 2011 - 09:15 .

[Thompson family]

RolandX9 wrote...

The geth want to live in space. The quarians want to live planetside.

...why don't they just trade?

Obviously, the actual answer is "three hundred years of war and death," but with the Reapers going nuts and Shepard there to hand them a clue, why couldn't this be technically feasible? It seems like the only real obstacle would be politics -- a huge one to be sure, but not an insurmountable one.

Yes. Trust is the issue. The Geth would have to trust the Quarians enough to let the huge
Migrant Fleet go there in the first place to drop the Quarian
non-combatants there.Then the Quarians would have to trust the Geth not to attack those non-combatants on a planet surrounded by Geth space stations while the fleet follows Shep into the counter attack.

It's a nerve-wracking situation for both sides. To cite Clausewitz to the best of my memory: "In war, everything is simple but the simplest thing is difficult."

Legion, who is inhabited by so many Geth, couldn't reach consensus on whether to brainwash or kill Heretics. It should surprise no one if the Geth split on this issue too -- hence the presense of some Geth defending the Reaper in the pit, as we've seen in cutscenes, while Legion is on Shep's side.

And the Quarians are split already, although the Reaper threat should wake them up. My guess is that the Admiralty Board will have to take one of those drastic votes they can take and then have to resign before this is all over.

I'll read the rest of this thread before posting further.

[Raygereio]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Raygereio wrote...
But let me you ask you something: why then in dear Ao's name did the Quarians collectively shat enough bricks to build the great wall of China when their artificial workforce was working as intended?

When they realized that their ability control their constructs was waning.

Okay, so what happened? Did the Quarians deliberatly program the Geth to no longer obey the commands of the Quarians? How does that make any sense?

Modifié par Raygereio, 29 juin 2011 - 09:19 .