228 réponses à ce sujet

[PhantomSpectre]

Thargorichiban wrote...

And why might they attack or threaten the Quarians if they enslaved the Geth? Maybe because the Council considers them to be weapons that they do not wish to be wielded with an independent species outside the pervue of Council Space.

Right, and why Quarians would want to control Geth in the first place? All I have ever seen or heard from any Quarians is that they either want to destroy them or then live in peace with them.

So, why they would want to control Geth? Because of Daro Xen and her ideas? Her ideas are just insane and she doesn't understood that it's not going to work. Even Overload project showed us that you can't possibly control Geth, not the way like you would want. It would either just backfire like it did and create rogue AI or it would just simply fail.

But excluding one insane person and her few possible supporters, Quarian doesn't even want to control Geth. So, there is no reason for any other races to take or even think of any action against Quarians.

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Raygereio wrote...

Are you serious? How about all of Tali's dialogue about the Geth-Quarian history in ME1?

Such as?

"Am I alive?" doesn't sound as radical to me as it does to you, clearly. The geth were designed to fulfill a variety of roles. The questions they asked can easily be interpreted as the program attempting to gain a clearer definition of quarian beliefs to better fulfill its role as an informative VI.

A VI is designed to give off the illusion of being alive, so this makes sense.

Ah, so when the Geth were asking questions about their own existence, they were really just trying to understand Quarian beliefs better, even though the Quarians built them for simple labor. Much more likely. /sarcasm

If they were trying to understand Quarian beliefs better, I'm sure a much more direct question would have been better. Such as, "We would like to know your beliefs" or "Do our creators have a soul". 

It would be hard justifying your "optimal" solution, if the Geth were sentient. I think it's pretty clear that they are. The "optimal" solution would be complete peace between the Quarians and the Geth. Is it possible? I have no idea, but it's optimal. 

[Someone With Mass]

Think of it as if your toaster or car suddenly started to ask you if they have souls and what their purposes in life are.

I think people would freak out a lot.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 29 juin 2011 - 09:30 .

[Raygereio]

Saphra Deden wrote...
No, as I said it was an oversight which allowed the programming to adapt and learn (which it was designed to do) until it reached a point that it would no longer recognize or obey the quarians input.
If I lose control of a car has it become sentient?
If a program on my computer has a glitch that prevents me from turning it off, forcing me to reboot my computer, is it alive?

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. We have arrived at the big question: "When is an artificial intelligence sentient?" That's a very tricky question and greater minds then mine haven't gotten anywhere near an answer to that, so I'm not even going to try.
I'll bow out of this tread because of that, but I will say your analogies there don't apply here at all. Allow me to adept them to the situation we're talking about:
If your car decides to completely ignore all of your inputs and decides to have fun racing on the highway - this without it having recieved any instructions to do so. Does this mean it's capable of independent thougt?
If a program on your computer has the ability to refuse your inputs and begins to preform tasks for which it wasn't programmed to do. Is it again capable of independent thought?

Modifié par Raygereio, 29 juin 2011 - 09:30 .

[Raygereio]

Saphra Deden wrote...
So let's save time and agree to disagree.

*nods head*

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Raygereio wrote...

Okay, so apparently the Quarians deliberatly programmed the Geth to no longer obey the commands of the Quarians? o_O

No, as I said it was an oversight which allowed the programming to adapt and learn (which it was designed to do) until it reached a point that it would no longer recognize or obey the quarians input.

If I lose control of a car has it become sentient?

If a program on my computer has a glitch that prevents me from turning it off, forcing me to reboot my computer, is it alive?

Now they were designed to adapt and learn? Maybe I'm ignorant, but I've never heard that. They were made to be simply tools to be used by the Quarians for labor and war. Nothing more. They were never supposed to "adapt and learn". And they never reached a point where they didn't "recognize" Quarian input. Quarian input was extremely clear: to wipe them out. They were just defending themselves.

Your analogies are flawed. There's nothing that suggests that the Geth malfunctioned. Sure, the Quarians never intended for them to gain sentience, but they did. A car doesn't choose to do anything that it's not intended to do. You input something into a computer, and it reacts appropriately. The Geth are clearly able to choose and think for themselves. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 29 juin 2011 - 09:39 .

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They don't trade because they don't trust the other party not to exterminate them as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

As for an optimal solution: Daro'Xen finishes Rael's work and uses his viral weapon to return all the geth to quarian control. This is the best outcome for everyone. It guarantees trust, protection, and efficiency.

.... if it works. If Rael couldn't do it, I have no confidence that  Daro' Xen could — and every confidence that a failed attempt would backfire spectacularly into full-scale war.

[Thompson family]

The key principle of this or any other discussion about allies in ME3 is simply this: It is in the best interest of ALL sentient species — or even high-functioning machines, if you insist that is all the Geth are — to fight the Reapers. The Reapers are not — repeat, not — going to leave any survivors capable of warning anyone about what's coming around in the next 50,000 years.

After all, it was high-functioning machines that warned Shep: A beacon and Vigil.

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

.... if it works. If Rael couldn't do it...

He could do it. His overconfidence in the face of such success is what lead him to disregard all caution. Same with with Dr. Archer in Overlord.

Xen is said to take fleet safety very seriously. She won't make the same mistake.

A fair point, SD, but there are a couple of quibbles.

First and least important, I'd argue that it was Dr. Archer's desperation that drove him, not overconfidence.

Second, Tali calls Xen "insane" after hearing Xen's hope to return the Geth to the control of their "rightful masters." Also, Xen's e-mail to Shep  saying that humans "will watch from a distance as the quarian people reclaim not just
their homeworld, but the largest synthetic army in the galaxy" shows exactly the type of arrogence we're talking about here.

[ThanesSniper]

I'd just leave things as they are. It's been working out fine so far. Quarians in the Flotilla, and the Geth on the homeworld.

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

There's nothing that suggests that the Geth malfunctioned.

You're right. Exterminating billions of quarians was what they were intended to do all along. It was a conspiracy.

Malfunction has nothing to do with Quarian intent. The purpose of any sentient species is to survive. That's what the Geth were trying to do. Exterminating the species that are trying to exterminate you is war. And if you were talking about Geth intent, I don't know why you would use the word "all along". The Geth formulate a consensus based on the current situation. There is no "all along" since the Geth evolved (for lack of a better word) past what they were intended to do. 

[Medhia Nox]

The Geth are not alive by the biological definition.

And discussing whether or not they are - is purely philosophical or religious in nature.

===

Even the Geth have a scientific view of this. They call the Reapers. "Old Machines" - because that's all they are. There's not a single thing special about the Reapers (in the Geth's eyes).

It's no more wrong than if I dropped my computer off a cliff. I would not wonder if I destroyed the computer's "soul" despite the fact that it could calculate and run programs. 

====

The most scientific solution would be to destroy the Geth entirely as they are not living - and any emotion ascribed to being terminated could be suspect as simple mimicry.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 29 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[Jeth Prime]

Not sure you can call any solution optimal. Until they're able to understand each other on a massive scale, not just Tali, then there will be a war, sooner or later....
It's hard to know who to side with, especially since Shepard finds out that everything he thought he knew about the geth is wrong.... Tali is thinking "what the Herat?" even more than he is....

[Jeth Prime]

Of course, if we knew what they should do, we'd have world piece, ourselves.... Let's move on.

[fenix612]

Id love seeing the Geth defending their creators from the Reapers.

[Dragoncloud]

Short version:
Peace would be possible if the quarians weren't all warlike vs the geth, the geth are more then willing to return the planet to their 'creators', the quarians however seem to think they have to take it by force.


Long version compiled when reading through the thread:


Actually iirc, the geth are just waiting for their 'creators' to come home, they're just cleaning the place up <<...

Its mostly the quarians (and the rest of the galaxy) that look upon the geth with mistrust, them being ai's & all, and them having defended themselves when the quarians tried to obliterate them.

And i'm fairly certain the geth don't mind moving, they're still working on how to develop the dyson sphere, so i doubt they really are that concerned about resources. (as machines they can go to a remote star with uninhabitable but rich in mineral worlds and strip mine those).


On people talking about major decisions not being able to happen, its the end of shepards story, who knows when the next game will come out, and if it will even be in a timeline thats close enough for our shepard to even be remembered. For all we know they could make the new game closer to first contact, or during the rachni wars, or centuries later.

@Saphra, when a object starts asking questions about souls & purpose of life, you can pretty much put it on the same level as an organic.

@ShadowLordXXX i'm fairly certain it was the quarians themselves who deployed WMD's and wrecked their own planet forcing them to leave it behind (and probably killing off a lot of their own species in the process).

@PhantomSpectre i kind of recall legion saying they are waiting for the creators to return (cleaning it up for when they do), a war is not necessary its just the quarians that think they have to fight to get their planet back.

@Raygereio If you talk to legion he'll let you hear a recording of when a geth questioned it existence and when the quarian he was talking to actually realised sentience was happening (apparently it had been asked before but just ignored, deleted, wiped out).

Theres a difference between having to just blow up a couple million quarians and fighting a race of ai's that (like in bsg) after their body gets destroyed can just hop back to a hub, share its experience and get a new body, not to mention the geth probably have a proper armada compared to the quarians that you can kill mostly by sending 2 dreadnought class ships on their live ships (sad part is that if that were to happen not many people in the galaxy would protest overly much).


On a side note: i blew up the heretics, rewriting them might or might not have worked, they might have reached the same conclusion again.

[l DryIce l]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Geth are not alive by the biological definition.

And discussing whether or not they are - is purely philosophical or religious in nature.

===

Even the Geth have a scientific view of this. They call the Reapers. "Old Machines" - because that's all they are. There's not a single thing special about the Reapers (in the Geth's eyes).

It's no more wrong than if I dropped my computer off a cliff. I would not wonder if I destroyed the computer's "soul" despite the fact that it could calculate and run programs. 

====

The most scientific solution would be to destroy the Geth entirely as they are not living - and any emotion ascribed to being terminated could be suspect as simple mimicry.

There's a clear definition of what sentience is. A computer cannot think and reason on its own. The Geth can. And whether or not something has a "soul" is irrelevant (and why you would use a biological definition of life and apply it to a synthetic organism is beyond me). If you're okay with destroying/enslaving a group that's able to think and reason on it's own, then more power to you. However, don't try to justify it by comparing the Geth to a computer (or a car). 

[ThanesSniper]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

I'd just leave things as they are. It's been working out fine so far. Quarians in the Flotilla, and the Geth on the homeworld.

The quarians are slowly dying out.

Shouldn't have created the Geth then. Their fault. When have robots ever been a good idea?

[l DryIce l]

ThanesSniper wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

I'd just leave things as they are. It's been working out fine so far. Quarians in the Flotilla, and the Geth on the homeworld.

The quarians are slowly dying out.

Shouldn't have created the Geth then. Their fault. When have robots ever been a good idea?

Now that's taking it a bit too far. The fact that the Quarians made the Geth doesn't mean they deserve to die. It was a mistake to let them get this far, but I'd like to believe that they're smart enough to come up with an...ethical solution.