228 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@ DryIce: And sentience is relevant "why" exactly?

And just so long as you don't say that the Geth are "alive" - because they're not. Because, as you so aptly pointed out... they're not biological. Whether or not a non-biological "thing" can be alive is either philosophical or religious... not scientific.

[l DryIce l]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@ DryIce: And sentience is relevant "why" exactly?

And just so long as you don't say that the Geth are "alive" - because they're not. Because, as you so aptly pointed out... they're not biological. Whether or not a non-biological "thing" can be alive is either philosophical or religious... not scientific.

Because that's generally how humans have come to determine whether or not something has value. Bacteria are (and my understanding of Biology is very elementary) "alive", but they are not sentient. This is why we don't feel remorse if we kill bacteria. Sentience determines worth. Whether or not something is "alive" is what's irrelevant. 

[ThanesSniper]

l DryIce l wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

I'd just leave things as they are. It's been working out fine so far. Quarians in the Flotilla, and the Geth on the homeworld.

The quarians are slowly dying out.

Shouldn't have created the Geth then. Their fault. When have robots ever been a good idea?

Now that's taking it a bit too far. The fact that the Quarians made the Geth doesn't mean they deserve to die. It was a mistake to let them get this far, but I'd like to believe that they're smart enough to come up with an...ethical solution. 

Oh, I don't think they deserve to die. This dilemma was entirely their fault though. No other race needs robots, the Council banned AI, and they attacked the Geth out of fear without listening to them. I also think it's funny how some of them think they can attack the Geth and survive, or try and regain control of the Geth, completely forgetting their past mistakes. THeir only option is the Flotilla, or a new habitable planet.

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Now that's taking it a bit too far. The fact that the Quarians made the Geth doesn't mean they deserve to die. It was a mistake to let them get this far, but I'd like to believe that they're smart enough to come up with an...ethical solution. 

They did. Destroying the geth to save quarian lives is ethical.

Great argument. Ethical because? Geth are not sentient? They are. It's obvious from both games (moreso in the 2nd) that the Geth are capable of forming opinions and acting rationally. They aren't just running a program. The original Geth split up into 2 groups because of this. Hell, the Heretics worship the Reapers. 

[l DryIce l]

ThanesSniper wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

I'd just leave things as they are. It's been working out fine so far. Quarians in the Flotilla, and the Geth on the homeworld.

The quarians are slowly dying out.

Shouldn't have created the Geth then. Their fault. When have robots ever been a good idea?

Now that's taking it a bit too far. The fact that the Quarians made the Geth doesn't mean they deserve to die. It was a mistake to let them get this far, but I'd like to believe that they're smart enough to come up with an...ethical solution. 

Oh, I don't think they deserve to die. This dilemma was entirely their fault though. No other race needs robots, the Council banned AI, and they attacked the Geth out of fear without listening to them. I also think it's funny how some of them think they can attack the Geth and survive, or try and regain control of the Geth, completely forgetting their past mistakes. THeir only option is the Flotilla, or a new habitable planet.

Yeah...fair enough. I agree. Although the ideal solution would be absolute peace between both races. 

[Medhia Nox]

@DryIce - so then you won't mind if I destroy all the bacteria in your colon keeping you from dying of infection? After all, they have no value.

Or... if I curb stop your pet? After all - it's not sentient and has no value.

===

If a tree suddenly asked you to stop building houses out of its relatives.. would you suddenly say: "What we're doing to these trees is wrong.. they now have value!!!"

===

Sentience is a philosophical term, not a scientific one.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 29 juin 2011 - 10:23 .

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Second, Tali calls Xen "insane" after hearing Xen's hope to return the Geth to the control of their "rightful masters."

Yes, but she never says why. I'm asking why. What is insane about what Xen said? Her way is the most sane because it gets the quarians back their world, eliminates the threat, and saves quarian lives.

... if it works.

I'd point out that Rael's plan was radical but still much, much more conservative than Xen's.

Rael hoped to hack the Geth to give the Quarians a decisive edge in an attack on the Geth.

That's a far, far less ambitious goal than Xen's. She wants to subjugate the Geth — who must number in the millions of platforms by now — and control them.

That's not ambition. That's arrogance.

[l DryIce l]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@DryIce - so then you won't mind if I destroy all the bacteria in your colon keeping you from dying of infection? After all, they have no value.

Or... if I curb stop your pet? After all - it's not sentient and has no value.

===

If a tree suddenly asked you to stop building houses out of its relatives.. would you suddenly say: "What we're doing to these trees is wrong.. they now have value!!!"

===

Sentience is a philosophical term, not a scientific one.

Animals are sentient...derp. And when did I say if something isn't sentient, it has no value. Sentience isn't the only way to determine value; it's just one of many factors. 

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Great argument. Ethical because? Geth are not sentient? They are.

No they aren't.

They can think and reason. They are. You're willfully ignorant if you think otherwise. Should I buy you a dictionary?

[Ianamus]

If I could I would get the Geth and Quarians to make peace (they seem to be working alongside each other in the 'Reaper base' demo. If not then I'd get Daro'Xen to unleash the virus on the Geth. It is no different morally to rewriting the Heretic Geth.

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

They can think and reason. They are. You're willfully ignorant if you think otherwise. Should I buy you a dictionary?

They're just computer code that mimics sentience. Fascinating to study, but not alive, not reasoning beings. Not beings at all, actually.

Yes, just as I'm mimicking being a human. They form different opinions on the same subject. That is not mimicking sentience. "Alive" is irrelevant. Bacteria are alive. 

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

[Medhia Nox]

@DryIce - there are several definitions of sentience.. and while a handful of them include animals as sentient, there is no scientific proof that animals feel emotions (a prerequisite of sentience). There is no proof your dog "loves" you - or mourns your loss.

And if they are - I imagine you're a staunch vegetarian, since you believe that plants cannot feel emotion.

And, if I find you a philosophy of sentience that involves plants, then you're really screwed because.. how dare you kill sentient life.

====

And though I disagree with most of what Saphra says - I concur with him/her about bacteria. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 29 juin 2011 - 10:45 .

[DarthSliver]

l DryIce l wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

They can think and reason. They are. You're willfully ignorant if you think otherwise. Should I buy you a dictionary?

They're just computer code that mimics sentience. Fascinating to study, but not alive, not reasoning beings. Not beings at all, actually.

Yes, just as I'm mimicking being a human. They form different opinions on the same subject. That is not mimicking sentience. "Alive" is irrelevant. Bacteria are alive. 

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

And Saphra if you take the time to read both Geth and Quarian wiki page it clearly shows the Quarians choose their destruction over reasoning. They wanted to hide the fact they created a sentient AI and an AI altogether from the Council because they knew what they were doing. They filled the Geth with so many different programs over the time from them first being just worker bots that its no surprise that the Geth gain sentience. They even encouraged the Geth to think for themselves because they didnt wanna hasle with maintaining repairs to them. 

Just carefully read both Wiki pages and your see.

[PhantomSpectre]

Saphra Deden wrote...

PhantomSpectre wrote...

So, why they would want to control
Geth? Because of Daro Xen and her ideas? Her ideas are just insane and
she doesn't understood that it's not going to work.

How are her ideas insane and how come they won't work? Are you just parroting Tali here? I think you are.

Did you rewrite or blow up the Heretics?

I Rewrited them, so I obviously know that it's possible to force some ideas at Geth. But it was Reaper made virus, so its techonogically really advanced (if I remember right, Sovereign actually gave that specific Virus to Heretics, so it purposedly made it). Quarian have centuries tried to make method to control Geth and their best attempts had been just able to hack them for few seconds. So simply Quarians doesn't have that technology or I even expertise to create another virus or controlling means, like Reaper virus was. No matter that they actually created the Geth. Now could Xen and others who likes the idea would somehow managed to find a new way to make another virus or programming to control Geth? Yes, but it's highly unlikely, except if they would get some Reaper technology in their hands, it's going to be long and hard process and it could take decades. And they would have to test that Geth's would somehow overcome this new rewriting process, which would be the worst possible solution. Also by then it's possible for them to make this virus, it's already possible that majority of Quarians wouldn't want to use it against Geth. Because that's would just lead to another major and much worse problem than technological issues.

That problem is that Geth would never allow this rewriting to happen. We already know that even Heretics tried to stop the issue, but failed because they didn't know that someone was planning to use their own virus against them. However that's not going to happen with other Geth. Why? Because there is no way for Quarians to make this new control method in secret, especially if it takes decades or even just years to make. Sooner or later Geth would learn about it in some way.

Also Quarians had no real way of testing if their Virus or whatever would actually work. Yes, they could test with some random platform, but every test increases the chances of Geth learning about the test via those platform or just hearing about the tests. Especially those necessary long-term rewriting tests are dangerous part, because they also make the biggest expose risk. And then if this lack of testing chances is not enough problems, Quarians would need to find a way to send or infect this new virus to all Geth's at the same time and that's going to be difficult work, if not impossible. And to make things worse, they only have one real chance to do this, because after the attempt Geth's would know it. It have to work out at once or it's end of story for all Quarians.

Now why this whole control idea is so bad? Ultimately it's because Geth won't allow it to happen. We already know that Legion wanted to send the data, it found scanning Tali's omni-tool, back to Geth, so that they could prepare. Only Shep's intervension prevented another possible cause to full scale war. Now imagine, what would happen if Geth would actually find out that Quarians have a new method to kill them or a way to control them? Geth would make preemptive strike, which would most likely to lead once again to full- scale war. Or it's even possible that Geth would just simply decide to destroy Quarians once and for all, if danger is great enough. And I would say that method to kill or control them is reason enough for Geth.

And there is even another issue in here, which you need to think. Would Quarians even want to or allow Xen or people like her to study Geth further if they have got their homeworld back or that they are going to get it. Would they allow even their own to endanger their chances to get homeworld back, knowing that in worst case it would mean their own complete destruction. I doubt that. And if Quarians haven't got their homeworld back, then making this new virus weapon is never possible. Because you can't make it in secret in the fleet.

Anyway, long story short. Why I think that Xen's ideas are insane and not going to work? It's going to be total suicide. The end of Quarian race. Yes, it's technically and scientifically possible to make way to get control over the Geth, but Geth won't allow it and attempting it is just asking for your own destruction.

[Welsh Inferno]

Good job ignoring the entirety of his post.

[Images]

I say blow up the entire flotilla. Saphra said it first, the Quarians are dying out. Poor disease-catching wretches. Lets put them out of their misery. We can then negotiate with the Geth to take control of the cleaned up Quarian homeworld afterwards. Everybody wins and unlike the virus, success is certain. After all its not like the Quarians are sentient.

[l DryIce l]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@DryIce - there are several definitions of sentience.. and while a handful of them include animals as sentient, there is no scientific proof that animals feel emotions (a prerequisite of sentience). There is no proof your dog "loves" you - or mourns your loss.

And if they are - I imagine you're a staunch vegetarian, since you believe that plants cannot feel emotion.

And, if I find you a philosophy of sentience that involves plants, then you're really screwed because.. how dare you kill sentient life.

====

And though I disagree with most of what Saphra says - I concur with him/her about bacteria. 

I'm using this definition:
 - Having the power of perception
 - Characterized by sensation and consciousness. 

And anyways, the damn Codex claims the Geth are sentient beings. Emotions have nothing at all to do with sentience. 

Secondly, animals are no where near the level of the Geth. The Geth are capable of high levels of thought and communication. No evidence that this applies to any animals other than us. 

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Images wrote...

. We can then negotiate with the Geth to take control of the cleaned up Quarian homeworld afterwards.

That won't work. The geth aren't interested in talking to us.

That's just flat out wrong. The Geth talked directly to you in ME2. They have shown an interest in Shepard, at least.