181 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Templars were required to report on Evelina's children to the Chantry or help them out in some way.

Proof of this?

Unless one of those children were mages I've seen nothing to suggest that the Chantry goes out seeking orphans and has a duty to protect them. Things don't seem to work that way in Thedas. The Chantry isn't required to take in children but they do. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 juin 2011 - 10:37 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Wulfram wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

And Anders does care about them, but they were already doomed

Sorry, no.  He destroys the chantry so that there "can be no turning back".  He "removed the chance of compromise because there is no compromise", because for him "There can be no peace"

He blew up the Chantry because he was afraid Elthina might stop the Circle's destruction - might find a compromise which would allow the system he detests to continue functioning - and because he considers living under the Chantry's control worse than death, and holds Orsino in contempt for thinking otherwise.

I disagree on one key point in this: he isn't worried that there will be a compromise that will maintain the system. He's become aware that every 'compromise' that has happened in the last seven years has meant things getting WORSE for mages.

When he says "there is no compromise" he means that mages never gain anything in a compromise, and always lose something, all the 'so called' compromises we've seen so far are illusions. Seven years of "compromise" hasn't just lead to the system maintaining a uniform level of badness, it's lead to steadily increasing badness. The problem is a combination of the false middle problem and the frog in the pot of boiling water problem: the templars say "let's turn the temperature up two degrees," the mages say "no! don't turn it up at all!" and Elthina says "compromise, we'll turn it up one degree."  Then everyone pats each other on the back because they've achieved compromise, but, at the end of the day, the mages are going to end up cooked.

Unless you're arguing that things didn't get any worse in Kirkwall for mages between Act 1 and Act 3, in which case... I just don't see what you see.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 juin 2011 - 10:35 .

[Collider]

Killing innocents like that was not in any way justified.

[TEWR]

dude in Redcliffe? You mean Ser Perth? He's a knight of Redcliffe, not a Templar.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dude in Redcliffe? You mean Ser Perth? He's a knight of Redcliffe, not a Templar.

Oooh. My bad then. 

...Why the hell was he wearing templar armor?  ..Maybe it's one of my mods. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 juin 2011 - 10:49 .

[TEWR]

He wasn't. his armor scales with the player's level. It's actually Chevalier's armor.





You were talking about Ser Perth right?

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
I think he was wearing a silver-colored version of Cailan's armor model, was he not?

 

Yeah it's one of my mods. I'm not sure which one..but it's one of them. My bad peeps.  

@Winter: Yeah I meant Ser Perth. I've been playing DAO with mods so long that I forgot hat they were wearing originally. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 juin 2011 - 10:51 .

[Vit246]

Wulfram wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

And Anders does care about them, but they were already doomed

Sorry, no.  He destroys the chantry so that there "can be no turning back".  He "removed the chance of compromise because there is no compromise", because for him "There can be no peace"

He blew up the Chantry because he was afraid Elthina might stop the Circle's destruction - might find a compromise which would allow the system he detests to continue functioning - and because he considers living under the Chantry's control worse than death, and holds Orsino in contempt for thinking otherwise.

Wrong. Anders actually wanted some form of compromise. That's why he gave Elthina the benefit of the doubt when he heard how she rejected Alrik's proposal of the tranquil solution. That's why he waited years after Act 2 for Elthina to do something. He tried giving her one last chance to reconsider her naive pretense of neutrality before planting his explosive, but she just didn't want to do anything about the conflict. Let the Maker solve everything. He blew up the Chantry because Elthina was doing nothing that resembled advocating compromise. He blew up the Chantry so that the Circle would be forced to fight and free themselves from the Chantry and their Templar militant arm.

Things were geting progressively worse in the seven years that Hawke spends in Kirkwall. By Act 3, the Templars were abusing and raping and tranquiling even harrowed mages for the slightest of perceived crimes. They were cracking down on the families of mages. Elthina herself said she kenw of Meredith's methods, but did nothing about it.  Where is there suppose to be a chance of "compromise"?

Modifié par Vit246, 30 juin 2011 - 11:13 .

[Wulfram]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I disagree on one key point in this: he isn't worried that there will be a compromise that will maintain the system. He's become aware that every 'compromise' that has happened in the last seven years has meant things getting WORSE for mages.

When he says "there is no compromise" he means that mages never gain anything in a compromise, and always lose something, all the 'so called' compromises we've seen so far are illusions. Seven years of "compromise" hasn't just lead to the system maintaining a uniform level of badness, it's lead to steadily increasing badness. The problem is a combination of the false middle problem and the frog in the pot of boiling water problem: the templars say "let's turn the temperature up two degrees," the mages say "no! don't turn it up at all!" and Elthina says "compromise, we'll turn it up one degree."  Then everyone pats each other on the back because they've achieved compromise, but, at the end of the day, the mages are going to end up cooked.

Unless you're arguing that things didn't get any worse in Kirkwall for mages between Act 1 and Act 3, in which case... I just don't see what you see.

I agree things have got worse for Mages in Kirkwall.  But I question how much that is relevant to Anders' actions.

If he was acting on behalf of the oppressed Mages of Kirkwall, he wouldn't have picked a course which he knew would result in their near complete annihilation.  He was acting on behalf of Mages outside of Kirkwall - of whom we have no indications of a deterioration in conditions - and because of an unyielding principle of Justice which could not tolerate the mages making a choice that slavery was preferable to death.

If - hypothetically, I'm not saying this is what would necessarily have happened if Anders hadn't intervened - Elthina somehow brokered a compromise whereby Meredith was removed and the Kirkwall circle was to be run of the same lines as Greagoir and Irving ran the Fereldan circle, do you really think that would have been acceptable to either Anders or Justice?

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Templars were required to report on Evelina's children to the Chantry or help them out in some way.

Proof of this?

Unless one of those children were mages I've seen nothing to suggest that the Chantry goes out seeking orphans and has a duty to protect them. Things don't seem to work that way in Thedas. The Chantry isn't required to take in children but they do. 

It's simple chain of command. Templar reports to Cullen, who reports to Meredith, who should've reported to Elthina who should've taken care of the situation. Or something akin to that depending on who Evelina talked to.


But Meredith is an incompetent, biased idiot so that's where it fails.


Nevertheless, the Templars are required to do this.


Or at least they should be, as a chain of command does need to be present where these things are placed in reports. I do know Meredith receives reports, as Hawke's name turned up in her reports a lot.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 juin 2011 - 11:03 .

[Wulfram]

And after the Templars report this, what are the Chantry supposed to do? Prioritise these particular urchins over all the others in Kirkwall. Or just spontaneously come up with a solution to child poverty?

[TEWR]

They should make the effort to take care of these orphans at some point. I doubt that Kirkwall is up to their necks with orphans for 6 years. Evelina fled the Blight from the Ferelden Circle and promptly turned herself in to Kirkwall's Circle.

[Hurbster]

My mage Hawke thought all the other mages were crazy bloodmagic using idiots. Consequently he had no problems killing Anders the terrorist.

BUT, if I may drag this back onto the original topic somewhat, I too was surprised at the companions lack of reaction to his death, or even to what he had done.

[SurelyForth]

Wulfram wrote...

I agree things have got worse for Mages in Kirkwall.  But I question how much that is relevant to Anders' actions.

If he was acting on behalf of the oppressed Mages of Kirkwall, he wouldn't have picked a course which he knew would result in their near complete annihilation.  He was acting on behalf of Mages outside of Kirkwall - of whom we have no indications of a deterioration in conditions - and because of an unyielding principle of Justice which could not tolerate the mages making a choice that slavery was preferable to death.

If - hypothetically, I'm not saying this is what would necessarily have happened if Anders hadn't intervened - Elthina somehow brokered a compromise whereby Meredith was removed and the Kirkwall circle was to be run of the same lines as Greagoir and Irving ran the Fereldan circle, do you really think that would have been acceptable to either Anders or Justice?

If he knows that Meredith is calling for the Right of Annulment, which seems reasonable because he's fairly up on mage/templar gossip, then their annihilation is inevitable no matter what he does. 

If he also knows that Justinia is considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall, then (see point a). 

And I think, from the fact that Anders is willing to speak with Elthina because he considers her denial of Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution to show sense, yes. If anything was being done to alleviate the sitiation in Kirkwall, if he knew that Meredith was being censured and the mages were not under threat of Annulment, chances are he wouldn't have felt his action was necessary. 

[Wulfram]

I'm sure Hawke and friends create no end of orphans to keep the Chantry busy.

[TEWR]

@Wulfram: when I was typing my comment that same joke popped into my head.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 juin 2011 - 11:20 .

[Wulfram]

SurelyForth wrote...

If he knows that Meredith is calling for the Right of Annulment, which seems reasonable because he's fairly up on mage/templar gossip, then their annihilation is inevitable no matter what he does.

If he also knows that Justinia is considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall, then (see point a).

If he knows that Meredith is calling for the Right of Annulment, then he also knows that Elthina has said no, and that therefore their annihilation is not inevitable.

Also, and fundamentally, if he knew that the Annulment was inevitable then his actions would be total idiocy.  All he would be achieving is giving people yet another reason to hate and fear mages.  He's removed the chance for their mages to start the war with the moral highground unequivocally their's

And I think, from the fact that Anders is willing to speak with Elthina because he considers her denial of Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution to show sense, yes. If anything was being done to alleviate the sitiation in Kirkwall, if he knew that Meredith was being censured and the mages were not under threat of Annulment, chances are he wouldn't have felt his action was necessary. 

If Anders is at all interested in compromise, why did he "remove the chance of compromise"?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Wulfram wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
And I think, from the fact that Anders is willing to speak with Elthina because he considers her denial of Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution to show sense, yes. If anything was being done to alleviate the sitiation in Kirkwall, if he knew that Meredith was being censured and the mages were not under threat of Annulment, chances are he wouldn't have felt his action was necessary. 

If Anders is at all interested in compromise, why did he "remove the chance of compromise"?

I'll get back to my earlier post in a second, but it requires a bit more explanation, and this is easy to respond to.

Anders is willing to compromise throughout Act 1 and Act 2. It's just at the end of act 3 that he knows that Meredith is calling for annulment, the Divine is considering a march, and things are just getting worse. So effectively he gave it six years of truly and desperately wishing for compromise, and finally realizes it isn't going to happen. Like I explained above: he kept waiting for someone to compromise in a way that made things better, he wanted that more than anything, and just... no dice.

Repeating the same action over and over again (seeking compromise from an entity that has shown that it will do nothing that ever benefits your side) and expecting a different result... that's insanity.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 juin 2011 - 11:37 .

[Wulfram]

[quote]CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

[quote]If Anders is at all interested in compromise, why did he "remove the chance of compromise"?
[/quote]

I'll get back to my earlier post in a second, but it requires a bit more explanation, and this is easy to respond to. [/quote]

Anders is willing to compromise throughout Act 1 and Act 2. [/quote]

Yes.  In Act 1 and Act 2, he is not completely under the thrall of his demon.

[quote]It's just at the end of act 3 that he knows that Meredith is calling for annulment, the Divine is considering a march, and things are just getting worse. So effectively he gave it six years of truly and desperately wishing for compromise, and finally realizes it isn't going to happen. Like I explained above: he kept waiting for someone to compromise in a way that made things better, he wanted that more than anything, and just... no dice.

Repeating the same action over and over again (seeking compromise from an entity that has shown that it will do nothing that ever benefits your side) and expecting a different result... that's insanity.
[/quote]

6 years isn't very long, considering the enormity of his demands.

Plus, if you've a friendly mage Hawke Champion, then there has in fact been pretty significant progress, which is tossed into the bin because the spirit which was once Justice can't handle the real world.

Modifié par Wulfram, 30 juin 2011 - 11:50 .

[River5]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Repeating the same action over and over again (seeking compromise from an entity that has shown that it will do nothing that ever benefits your side) and expecting a different result... that's insanity.

Just

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They should make the effort to take care of these orphans at some point. I doubt that Kirkwall is up to their necks with orphans for 6 years. Evelina fled the Blight from the Ferelden Circle and promptly turned herself in to Kirkwall's Circle.

 

Damn my post never got through. 

It would've been nice of them too but that doesn't make it their job. Just like it would be nice if a firefighter brought some orphan kids to a shelter, it's not his job though. 

[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...

If he knows that Meredith is calling for the Right of Annulment, then he also knows that Elthina has said no, and that therefore their annihilation is not inevitable.

Meredith had sent a petition over Elthina's head to the Divine, whom had already expressed interest in setting an Exalted March upon Kirkwall. Anders has very good reason to believe that she will get what she wants, so he made sure it would happen in a situation that will reflect most poorly upon her.

[Demx]

I enjoyed killing him and forcing him to help the templars.

[R0vena]

Oh, come on.
Sebastian is not demanding Anders' death for blowing up the Chantry. He demands it because of Elthina - who was like a second mother to him. Honestly, if you mother would die in the explosion some guy set up would you care that he did it for the greater good? Or would you rather take out the gun and shoot the bastard on spot (or at least seriously think about it)?

On the subject: I spared him and I killed him equal amount of times depending on the character of Hawke I played. I didn't find the companion's reaction that shocking - there are bigger problems at hand at the moment than getting all emotional over the guy most of them haven't even been friendly with.

Modifié par R0vena, 01 juillet 2011 - 02:32 .