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[Blessed Silence]

SurelyForth wrote...

Anders has probably saved more lives over the course of his time in Kirkwall than were lost in the Chantry explosion. Not that it's a zero-sum game, but he's not a mindless killer by any stretch of the imagination and he probably contributes to the well-being of Kirkwall more than anyone in your party, outside of Aveline.

Anyway, not a defense of Anders thread. The same thing happened in DAO. You could kill off Leliana. Wynne, Shale and Alistair and nobody mentions them dying. Hell, Alistair cab sacrifice himself to save the world and the only person the Warden can even talk about it with is Wynne, and then it's just a passing and move on.

Mindless no, but a murderer yes.  He killed the Grand Cleric because she was neutral and wouldn't take sides.  Anders even said "There would never be peace" and he killed the one piece that could make peace by blowing up the Chantry and everyone inside.

Heck he PLANNED it for a long time even tricking you into helping him.

He's more a cold, calculating killer at best.  Heck he even wants you to kill people in a whim sometimes if it is brought up in conversation.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

@LobselVith8

Since 'betraying' Cailan wasn't the Teyrn's plan to begin with, just getting him out of Eamon's control, I doubt it went much further than Loghain having a conversation with Uldred about how the mages could better serve in Fereldan's army. Uldred's eagerness to help could either be as you suggested (of his own motivations) or just an honest desire to prove mages useful. This depends on the question of his personality prior to being possessed. I still applaud him asking. [/quote]

Gaider said that Loghain didn't plan on abandoning Cailan until that very moment, but that it was a contingency plan. Apparently, he was trying to isolate Eamon to keep Cailan from getting the Orlesians involved in the battle against the darkspawn.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

But yet you ask me to champion the mages who are what they are through an accident of birth, and decimate the Templars with a clear heart-- many of whom are what they are due to poverty or abandoment, and kept shackled by lyrium. [/quote]

I'm not asking you to champion anyone. I simply disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles, and apparently do so some of the characters, like the new ruler of Ferelden, First Enchanter Irving, and the Hero of Ferelden who asks for the Magi boon. If the templars are going to decimate the lives of hundreds of men, women, and children, then I see every reason to oppose them, especially when Kirkwall's Right of Annulment was invoked for an act that an apostate was responsible for.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Further-- if siding with the mages, I do not get a chance to offer fallen Templars mercy-- but I do with the Templars facing the mages. [/quote]

Three mages out of hundreds of men, women, and children, and it's likely those three mages will be made tranquil. Given that the Right of Annulment was monstrous enough to inspire the mages across the continent to rebel against the millennia old rule of the Chantry, I'd say it had to be worse than the last several Rights of Annulment were.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Both groups have suffered at the hands of the Chantry. The Templars are a disposable slave army and the mages disposable weapons. There are good and evil people on both sides, the middle road is the only one that best offers a future for everyone. (as I side note, I love Otto dearly. I think he's one of my favorite NPCs and it makes me spectacularly sad that I managed to save him from his scripted death once, only to be caught in an endless loop of fighting that demon and never being able to leave that room...) [/quote]

It's a shame Ser Otto died, he was an interesting character. I did find it odd that he never commented on my character being a mage, though. Then again, no one comments on my elven mage Warden carrying around a staff when elves aren't legally permitted to carry weapons, but I suppose The Warden is simply that intimidating.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I also hated that retconn. I like Ser Bryant (and his statement about houses still holds true to this situation even if I was mistaken in remembering the prompt earlier-- while the mages and Templars fight, everyone else is free to do what they want while resources are being wasted). [/quote]

I like to think Ser Bryant, at the very least, stayed behind to protect the people of Lothering. I can't see him simply abandoning them to their fate. (And he was voiced by the same actor who voices male Hawke and Xenon the Antiquarian).

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The Chantry of Orlais. The Chantry of Andraste only existed before it was perverted in Haven. [/quote]

Actually, the Cult of Andraste in Haven - the Disciples of Andraste - is simply one of many Cults of Andraste that had existed roughly 900 years ago. Emperor Drakon I established the Chantry of Andraste, the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars, and the Orlesian Empire as a member of one of the many Cults of Andraste, and he lead a number of Exalted Marches to spread the faith and turn his city-state into an empire. The main change in Haven was that it was an ancestor of Kolgrim that made everyone believe that Andraste was reincarnated into a High Dragon, and killed the people who refused to convert.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

It was a direct line of faith back to the beginning. And suprise surpsrise, mages lived side by side with everyone else. It's not the religion that's at fault, it's the evil empire using that faith as a cover. I mentioned much earlier in another post about remarks made by the Guardian at the shrine with his scepticism about the Imperium actually being 'weaker'. The gauntlet of Andraste has been my guide through many things in the DA setting (including arguing with Wynne and sparing Loghain). I feel even more confident about my decision to side with the Templars now reflecting that mercy is only granted to the opposing side in siding with them. Far as magic being accepted in other places-- the Chasind certainly do not welcome witches-- see below. [/quote]

The Chasind celebrate the story of Flemeth, since they believe she taught the original shamans how to wield magic. Gentiivi's codex on the Chasind addresses this part of their culture.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

And keep them safe from the people of the village. Don't forget the Chasind guy that threw a fit realizing that Morrigan was a witch. And even among the Dalish, Merrill was unwanted because of her proclivities for playing with things she shouldn't. Just because magic is accepted to some extent in these other communities doesn't mean all magic is. There are still standards and controls. They just aren't embodied by the same mechanics as the Templars. But the Templars are very efficient at what they do and better police. [/quote]

The Chasind didn't realize Morrigan was a daughter of Flemeth, only that she was an apostate. It's interesting to note that both the Chasind and the Dalish seem to revere Flemeth was a person of importance. And Merrill was made an outcast because Keeper Marethari opposed what Merrill was doing, despite the fact that the Dalish are supposed to restore the past of their ancestors.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

They can marry, though it happens only rarely and some authorities hold that right back as a reward for particular mages. You are right about the freedom though. [/quote]

Only some Circles of Magi permit marriage, as others forbid relationships entirely.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I didn't ask what your Hawke did. I asked you. Can you disagree that they are living weapons? And they are people. Recognizing them as living weapons does not make them any less people--- and I nudged Cullen in that direction. That's like saying that recognizing that someone is deaf or has perfect pitch makes them less than people. [/quote]

I addressed what Hawke can say because I follow the same train of thought - mages are people, not weapons. Treating them as such is why the world is on the brink of war between the templars and the mages.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Anders used a magical bomb set off by his own magic. The fact that he needed Sandal and mentioned Tevinter experiments and rituals to Hawke even after admitting there was no potion points that it was definitely magic. [/quote]

The explosion was activated by magic, but it was possible because of the ingredients that Hawke found (or Anders, if Hawke refuses to help him).

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

And the Chantry in Tevinter, also worshipping Andraste, does not and the situation there is no better. It just changes who is opressing whom. Not all Andrastians view magic as a sin just as not all Templars believe mages to be evil. This is why it has to change at the base. All this idiotic fighting has to stop and people have to speak like rational beings and point the blame where it really belongs. [/quote]

Most Andrastians view it as a sin because it's what the Chantry preaches. And a better solution isn't likely to happen because it's impossible for one person to convince an entire continent not to go to war - it's ridiculous that Cassandra thinks Hawke can stop the war between the templars and the mages.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The Mages Collective lives in tiny pockets scattered everywhere. Many times in the letters they reference living in out of the way places-- like the man who believed blood mages had moved into his area near the Brecillian Forest and wanted someone to go check it out. The Mages Collective also aids like minded Templars by getting them the lyrium they crave outside the grip of the Chantry-- so they can defy them in small ways that help the free mages without fear of having their supply cut off to make them behave. Enchanter Godwin is doing something similar-- albeit for the money and the influence. Apostate Hawke also has Templars close at hand if they're needed-- or even a brother that is one. Same with Lothering-- there were scads of Templars there. Far as Anders... I don't think he can be reasonably considered in the equation because he's an abomination. [/quote]

Anders was willing to see if Grand Cleric Elthina could be reasoned with, he recognized Thrask as a good man, and even when he planted the ingredients in the Chantry he gave the Grand Cleric one final chance to do something about her subordinate Meredith and the plight of the mages.

And I don't see Carver being any help as a templar - personally, I prefer him as a Grey Warden, where he gains some character development and becomes part of something greater than himself.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Even the properly trained outside the circles are dangerous to themselves and others. Look at Merrill. She is properly trained and chose to do a series of increasingly ridiculous things when all signs pointed to them being terrible ideas. Even rivaled, at the end, knowing that what she is doing is wrong her last quest she undertakes only because of all the time she's invested--- not because she actually thinks she's doing the right thing. Now that is an extreme writing failure but it makes it no less what happened. And didn't you just bring up that not everyone in Thedas operates the way the Orlesian Chantry does? Magic is a problem (and a solution, actually, to some things). It is never not going to be a problem, but it can be lived with comfortably by everyone if they're willing to give a little from all sides. [/quote]

I don't agree that Merrill's ideas are terrible - she is taking a risk that may benefit her people. It's no different than the risks taken by The Warden and Hawke, and it's better than doing nothing at all.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

When does Varric say the Templars specifically broke away to hunt the mages? [/quote]

Varric says this at the end of the storyline, after the Right of Annulment. Varric tells Cassandra, "Didn't the templars rebel as well? I thought you left the Chantry to hunt the mages."

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

He says the Seekers left the chantry, he says they lost control of their Templars. He also never mentions that specifically as the reason in the foreward. Viscount hawke has the opportunity during the fight to call for mercy for surrendering mages-- which Cullen grants immediately over Meredith's objections. [/quote]

Again, three mages over hundreds, who may be made tranquil. If this incident caused every Circle of Magi to rise up, it had to be as bad - if not worse - than the prior Rights of Annulment to cause a rebellion among the mages.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Rebel Hawke has no such gesture of mercy to the opposing side. If anything it should give Viscount Hawke something to recall in negotiations later. "The King of Fereldan asked me to keep the city from falling because worse things were afoot, so I did. I had no love for Meredith and when Knight- Captain Cullen expressed a desire for clemency for surrendering mages, I granted it immediately. When the opportunity came to kill Meredith for her crimes against Kirkwall-- against us all, I did it." etc etc. [/quote]

Apostate Hawke is more concerned about protecting as many of the hundreds of men, women, and children as he can from the templars trying to murder them, and not slaughtering them like the future Viscount Hawke does simply to spare three men out of an entire population of people.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Cullen has misgivings about Meredith already if you continue to talk to him, prior to the last straw. He thinks she's lost her mind towards the end of the 3rd chapter. She hung all the Templars that dared help the Starkhaven mages aside Keran if you plead for his life and Samson's and it disgusted him. Cullen stands up for the Champion's arrest because he knows what Meredith did was wrong, despite the champion having murdered his fellow Templars in the process. Cullen not siding against Meredith is what wouldn't make sense, given what we know about the character. He supports her to a point because of training, brainwashing if you want, and then can no longer sustain it. He must be who he is and strike her down because she is evil and Cullen hates evil. [/quote]

So despite the fact that the pro-mage apostate Hawke shows no inclination towards surrendering and has killed every templar in his path to protect his people, Cullen is going to side with the Champion of Kirkwall over Meredith? It's not as though she even revealed the Soul Calibur sword, she simply sought to kill a man who was killing her own people. If anything, why didn't the Right of Annulment convince Cullen to stop her, rather than a man who was killing templars left and right?

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Merrill's own justification for her insanity rings about as hollow as Meredith's-- who also believes she is doing the right thing for her people. Merrill is sweet, of that there is no doubt, but it does not mean she isn't dangerously crazy. Her keeper allowed a dirty Shem to keep a sacred relic of the Dalish as a paperweight rather than let it fall into the girl's hands. I would say that's a pretty big endorsement for crazy right from the Dalish themselves. [/quote]

Meredith commits genocide against an entire population of people who are innocent of what Anders did, while Merrill wants to end the plight of her people. It's not even remotely similar.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Far as Alistair (or Anora, or Alistair and Anora)-- it's something I've considered from the first game after his comments about the Templars being an enemy army in Fereldan and Loghain's fears about the same. I hope it happens.
[/quote]

I'd imagine Ferelden may be the most stable nation when the Circles of Magi rise up because the new ruler endorsed the Magi boon (at least Queen Anora did for my Surana Warden) and (her husband) King Alistair is even protecting apostates from the templars.

[Marduksdragon]

@LobselVith8

This is true, because he rightly suspected the Orlesians in a plot against Fereldan. That was pretty much supported by the discovery at Return to Ostagar and the fact that Eamon was trying to get rid of Anora to marry Cailan to Celine.

I disagree with Chantry controlled anything but Chantries (which should be abundantly clear). My whole argument is that the Circles and the Templars need to be secular and work in concert. And what about the Templars' families-- you think the mages aren't going to hit those men and women where they live? How many thousands die then? No one will have clean hands. The first strike was taken by a mage in the name of suffered injustice. The second by a Templar in the name of fear. Everything else is reactionary. I might add that Grace waited years to turn on a man who was trying to protect her and make a new way and overthrow her opressors just so she could strike at the Champion and didn't give hot snot if Thrask was kind or cared about her safety. She didn't even care what happened to her fellow mages so long as she got her digs in. I would make it a fair bet she's not the only mage to feel this way--- the Templars will suffer just as much as the mages and instead of genocide (which is a pretty word that makes things sound very dire) it will just be mass murder of the poor and disadvantaged on a grand scale. It's not any better, but the mages don't even offer quarter to the Templars, but the Templars do... and that helps me feel better about that decision --- Greagoir also disagrees with the chantry-- play a blood mage through Broken Circle and he and Irving should come to your Warden's defense against Wynne and say some very interesting things. ----It's not just the right of annulment we have to figure in here-- we have to look at the entirity of Kirkwall, all it's people and what it represents in the Freemarches. I didn't go into that decision going "WOOT KILL MAGES! YUS!" I was playing a mage and I could not go back on my promise to the King, was wary of Flemeth's warning, and hurting over the loss of Anders (whom I like very much, but realized that he was afraid and wanted to die. Because I wasn't given the option to go into the fade and whip the tar out of Vengeance, I chose to help him with a knife while Anders was still himself-- before the thing inside him made him do anything else awful in the name of "justice"), I also needed to secure Starkhaven's help for Fereldan if I could which meant that Anders had to die anyway -regardless of how I personally felt- (Starkhaven will not always be floundering and I took Sebastian's threat seriously- even if Prince Waffles doesn't lead the charge himself he has proven adept at paying other people to do it for him-- like any monarch), and I was thinking that as a mage the only way I would get the Templars to listen to me later was to get their attention now. I'd tried that all along and made friends with the kindly Templars-- Samson, Thrask, Cullen, Keran-- trying to win their approval and support to help the mages (it's very telling I got the mystical supporter achievement in the same runthrough I first sided with the Templars). I said aloud "bless you" to Cullen when he spoke up about the surrendering mages (of which we only see three, but that doesn't mean there aren't more-- we hardly see the 'hundreds' you mention in the dead) and then to Meredith during the final confrontation. And it still comes back to the city. Thedas needs something to fight back with when Flemeth's mess hits the fan. If everyone is still at war over this then she'll mow over everything in her path uncontested. Is it a Loghain level decision- yes. Yes it is. And I stand by it even though it hurts.

What inspired them was that it was totally unjustified. As far as your hundreds-- those three may represent many more who, inspired by the fact that the Templars weren't all heartless monsters, decided they'd rather just call truce and see what happened rather than become part of Orsino's mad granfaloon (I refuse to call that wimpy thing a Harvester).

I thought it was odd myself, but figured it was because my Wardens traveled in the company of a Templar. Later in the company of several Templars, with mods. Carroll, Cullen and Alistair.

(Cool to know) I do agree there. Bryant may also have been killed in a skirmish we aren't privy to and his men lost their nerve and fled. If that's the case, rest in peace, good Ser.

The Guardian of Andraste said he was part of the honor guard that carried her into the mountains-- he also said that the people of Haven were also descendants of all the remains of Andraste's most loyal defenders. I believe him because I talked to him, over the Codex, in this case. Brother Genetivi never met the Guardian. Haven wasn't even on the Chantry maps or Genetivi wouldn't have had such a difficult time finding it. He also said himself that the decorations in Haven predated anything the the Chantry was privy to.

The Irish celebrated Crom Cruag as a notable spirit in their native pantheon, but that didn't mean they wanted the people who worshipped him actively around. They persecuted them themselves even before Christianity became the "it" thing. Further-- the spirit called Pazuzu was celebrated by the ancient peoples of the Fertile Crescent, but it was considered dangerous to do anything with him other than ask him to take his wife (a manifestation of Lilith) home because she ate babies.--- Celebrating something does not mean accepting it or finding it good, especially in ancient societies. They often gave respect to power alone and tried to curry favor with entities they believed governed dangerous elements to avoid being harmed. I will point out that Merrill herself says that usually meetings with "ashabellanar" end up with people hanging from the trees in little pieces.

Actually, Morrigan says that he identified her as a witch of the wilds-- thus a Daughter of Flemeth. She opposed what Merrill was doing because the Eluvian was tainted in a manner that could not be fixed saved by communion with an evil spirit. Communion with any spirit is dangerous (look at Anders and what became of poor Justice-- turned into a slavering wild creature ready to strike down even defenseless mage girls who dare question his vision), but doubly so when one is painfully naïve and in search of importance-- something a demon will seize on quickly and manipulate. To fan her pride and make her think that only her, only THIS eluvian could save her people. Merrill had no business being a blood mage. Ever. 

This is true, but it's also true of Templars. Not all Templars are allowed to marry either. Greagoir, for one, frowned on even allowing his men relationships--- so says Carroll.

Treating them as slaves and disposable is what brought the mess to a head. Not as living weapons. Weapons are accorded respect, and care--- living weapons, by obvious virtue of being alive and being persons, even more so.

Given the manner in which the building exploded, it looks like a giant crushing prison spell shaping the charge. Given the fact that it's red, like Kirkwall's strange corrupted Lyrium, I would say it's some sort of enchantment rather than just an explosion.

And you know them all? (teasing, but it needed to be said) I think the common people are going to play a large role in what does or does not happen in later games. Winning their favor is going to be the deciding factor in how successful Hawke and the Warden are against what's coming down the road.

Anders, without having known Wesley at all, says horrible vile sexual things to his widow simply because that man was a Templar. Aveline showed remarkable restraint in not killing him on the spot. It takes him awhile to admit Thrask is a decent human being. He is blinded by Vengeance's fixation on Templars as the source of all evil against mages, instead of rightly laying it at the Chantry's feet. --- and Anders refused to talk to Elthina. I brought him to the Chantry on several occasions in quiet times and whenever I suggested he talk with her he flew off the handle and said something stupid or he refused. Elthina, via conversation with Sebastian, has little real power over Meredith. She's simply left to try and prevent the Divine from exhaultedly marching on Kirkwall and getting the whole city involved. It's not a great place to be, as far as decision making is concerned. Kind of like the decisions at the end of the game.

I prefer him as a Warden too. I adore Carver. I'm also quite fond of Uncle Gamlen, despite him being onery and sour. It felt good to send Charade to meet him.

The difference is that Merrill's back isn't up against the wall like the Warden or Hawke's. She is obsessed with this one eluvian being the key to her people's past and that she is the only one who can fix it (she never even offers to bury it and mark it to come back for later after the Dalish have had a grand court together so she can talk to other Keepers and see what they think about it). No. It has to be her. Right now. And that is what makes her no different than Meredith.

It's ambiguous. I think he means the Seekers because he says "You" to Cassandra. I'm not saying the Templars aren't fighting the mages, I just don't think they left the Order specifically to do it. Particularly not when the Chantry would already support that kind of thing in it's infinite corruption.

Three mages that we see. There might well have been many more. Also-- Cullen says they'll be watched, not Tranquiled.

My apostate viscount cared for everyone and didn't draw lines in the same place Anders demanded they be drawn. It hurt her just as much to think of the mages slaughtering the Templars as the Templars doing the reverse--- but she'd been asked to fulfill a duty to the people of Kirkwall and to Fereldan and possibly all of Thedas. It's not a great thing. If she'd had the opportunity, at that moment, to let someone else do it-- she probably would have. But the point is there is no one else. No one could save either side. No one could save her. No one could save Anders.

Yes. Because by that point he knew the time had come. This was his only chance to catch Meredith at her most vulnerable and the men were with him because they'd grown sick of what Meredith made them do (Templar side at least he knew this). Have you ever read about what happened to guards that were forced to shoot waves of people at concentration camps? Eventually they refused and their superiors had to turn to gas because the men became so heartsick that they were helping people escape. Human nature is to first see the other person as a human being-- eventually all beliefs are stripped away under enough stress and all you see is another person-- someone who desperately needs your help. Why didn't the mages rebel a long time ago-- under that same logic? Why did it have to be right then, that one injustice? Cullen had had his fill, just like those mages, and this was the time to make it stop -- and he needed to have the men behind him. The cry for mercy is proof that the men will follow him-- with that in mind he can successfully know that they will support him against Meredith in the final battle.  In the rebel run I'd say he was even more brave though it took longer to gather his courage, because he had no idea if the men would support him against her.

See way above in the same post.

Boy, I hope so. I actually gave land to the Dalish with my main Mage Warden because I figured Greagoir was an okay guy and Irving and he had a good thing going at Fereldan's tower once they got it all settled back in but the Dalish needed some place to start building that future of theirs. I am pleased that the King and Queen take such a good view of mages in general though. Especially since Alistair knows the tragedy of the Templars from the inside and can speak to both sides equally.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:04 .

[sphinxess]

Ryzaki wrote...

DG's quote doesn't actually apply to the Kirkwall Annullment since nothing about that anullment was normal. The fact that Hawke could spare the mages was already unorthodox and wouldn't have usually been allowed.

Not to mention why would the tranquil need to be watched for bloodmagic? The conversation makes no sense if they were gonna be tranquiled afterwards.  

Of course it applys to the Kirkwall Annulment - otherwise its a bunch of templars deciding to murder a bunch of mages over a mad grey warden mages destruction of the chantry. Even Meredith understands she can't just run in and murder a bunch of mages without invoking a reason.

The ones that surrender might be bloodmages - the sentence for a known bloodmage is death by chantry law. A mage that is only suspected of being a bloodmage is made Tranquil - its the same reason they decide to make Jowan tranquel - they suspect he might be a bloodmage but since they have no proof they won't kill him.

[Ryzaki]

sphinxess wrote...
Of course it applys to the Kirkwall Annulment - otherwise its a bunch of templars deciding to murder a bunch of mages over a mad grey warden mages destruction of the chantry. Even Meredith understands she can't just run in and murder a bunch of mages without invoking a reason. 

The ones that surrender might be bloodmages - the sentence for a known bloodmage is death by chantry law. A mage that is only suspected of being a bloodmage is made Tranquil - its the same reason they decide to make Jowan tranquel - they suspect he might be a bloodmage but since they have no proof they won't kill him.

Of course it applies for the Kirkwall Annullment? Did the whole "not a normal annullment" go over your head or something? Anullments are supposed to be called in scenarios like DAO's abominations everywhere, chaos, can't tell whose alive or dead. 

Right they might be bloodmages which is why Meredith gives the whole "are you willing to watch them and take the rap if you're wrong." speech to Cullen. That speech makes ZERO sense if they're gonna be made tranquil. They are no threat if they become tranquil and Cullen isn't watching them when they're taken away. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:14 .

[sphinxess]

Ryzaki wrote...

sphinxess wrote...
Of course it applys to the Kirkwall Annulment - otherwise its a bunch of templars deciding to murder a bunch of mages over a mad grey warden mages destruction of the chantry. Even Meredith understands she can't just run in and murder a bunch of mages without invoking a reason. 

The ones that surrender might be bloodmages - the sentence for a known bloodmage is death by chantry law. A mage that is only suspected of being a bloodmage is made Tranquil - its the same reason they decide to make Jowan tranquel - they suspect he might be a bloodmage but since they have no proof they won't kill him.

Of course it applies for the Kirkwall Annullment? Did the whole "not a normal annullment" go over your head or something?

Right they might be bloodmages which is why Meredith gives the whole "are you willing to watch them and take the rap if you're wrong." speech to Cullen. That speech makes ZERO sense if they're gonna be made tranquil. 

Your going to have to explain where chantry law allows for partial annulments or something - it is a all or nothing thing.

[Ryzaki]

sphinxess wrote...
Your going to have to explain where chantry law allows for partial annulments or something - it is a all or nothing thing.

 

Very few things are all or nothing in reality. I doubt the DA world is any different. 

It might be expected for them to be made tranquil but if Cullen is then KC who is really gonna question his orders? The Chantry certainly didn't do squat when the law was being broken to illegally tranquil mages. As long as the mages don't become a danger to civilians or are running around free I doubt the Chantry really cares enough to get involved. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:17 .

[sphinxess]

Ryzaki wrote...

sphinxess wrote...
Your going to have to explain where chantry law allows for partial annulments or something - it is a all or nothing thing.

 

Nothing is all or nothing in reality. I doubt the DA world is any different. 

It might be expected for them to be made tranquil but if Cullen is then KC who is really gonna question his orders? The Chantry certainly didn't do squat when the law was being broken to illegally tranquil mages. As long as the mages don't become a danger to civilians or are running around free I doubt the Chantry really cares enough to get involved. 

In DA:O Wynne behind her protective barrier even understands that once the Annument authorization and templar reinforcements arrive all the mages will be killed - see what she says to the warden.

Well yes thats obvious - meta-gaming no one knows Meredith will go bug crazy and get killed. Cullen has the authority to call off the annulment as acting KC.

[Ryzaki]

So...for some strange reason Meredith assumes automatically the mages are gonna need to be watched *despite* being made tranquil?

Really? 

Not to mention it's illegal to turn a hallowed mage tranquil. Meredith mayhave no problem breaking chantry law but it IS Chantry law. (Thus making that whole mages who are saved during the rite are turned tranquil an eyebrow raiser because it contradicts other chantry law). It is not protocol to break the law. If those mages were apprentices then maybe...but I dont think they were. 

And if they were mages it is illegal to turn them tranquil last I checked. 

So yeah that doesn't make much sense. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:33 .

[TEWR]

sphinxess wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

sphinxess wrote...
Your going to have to explain where chantry law allows for partial annulments or something - it is a all or nothing thing.

 

Nothing is all or nothing in reality. I doubt the DA world is any different. 

It might be expected for them to be made tranquil but if Cullen is then KC who is really gonna question his orders? The Chantry certainly didn't do squat when the law was being broken to illegally tranquil mages. As long as the mages don't become a danger to civilians or are running around free I doubt the Chantry really cares enough to get involved. 

In DA:O Wynne behind her protective barrier even understands that once the Annument authorization and templar reinforcements arrive all the mages will be killed - see what she says to the warden.

Well yes thats obvious - meta-gaming no one knows Meredith will go bug crazy and get killed. Cullen has the authority to call off the annulment as acting KC.

I knew. I saw the red glowing lyrium sword on her back in the opening segments of Act 3 and I knew what was going to happen.

[Plaintiff]

Ryzaki wrote...

sphinxess wrote...
Of course it applys to the Kirkwall Annulment - otherwise its a bunch of templars deciding to murder a bunch of mages over a mad grey warden mages destruction of the chantry. Even Meredith understands she can't just run in and murder a bunch of mages without invoking a reason. 

The ones that surrender might be bloodmages - the sentence for a known bloodmage is death by chantry law. A mage that is only suspected of being a bloodmage is made Tranquil - its the same reason they decide to make Jowan tranquel - they suspect he might be a bloodmage but since they have no proof they won't kill him.

Of course it applies for the Kirkwall Annullment? Did the whole "not a normal annullment" go over your head or something? Anullments are supposed to be called in scenarios like DAO's abominations everywhere, chaos, can't tell whose alive or dead. 

Right they might be bloodmages which is why Meredith gives the whole "are you willing to watch them and take the rap if you're wrong." speech to Cullen. That speech makes ZERO sense if they're gonna be made tranquil. They are no threat if they become tranquil and Cullen isn't watching them when they're taken away. 

Actually, the Right of Annulment was instituted as a response to a mage rebellion:

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Right_of_Annulment

In the incident the codex describes, there was only one abomination and it escaped into the countryside. The mages remaining in the Nevarran Circle were very much not possessed, and were rebelling of their own free will. But Divine Galatea went ahead and granted all Grand Clerics the power to "purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable".

There is no guideline for what 'irredeemable' means, leaving it entirely up to interpretation, and given the circumstances of the first Annulment, it is probable, if not likely that of the seventeen Annulments in history, most were called as a response to rebellion, rather than demonic infestation.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:38 .

[Ryzaki]

Plaintiff wrote...
Actually, the Right of Annulment was instituted as a response to a mage rebellion: 

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Right_of_Annulment

In the incident the codex describes, there was only one abomination and it escaped into the countryside. The mages remaining in the Nevarran Circle were very much not possessed, and were rebelling of their own free will. But Divine Galatea went ahead and granted all Grand Clerics the power to "power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable".

There is no guideline for what 'irredeemable' means, leaving it entirely up to interpretation, and given the circumstances of the first Annulment, it is probable, if not likely that of the seventeen Annulments in history, most were called as a response to rebellion, rather than demonic infestation.

Ah. 

...That's...very evil empire stuff. Awesome. 

Then why did Elthina reject the annullment plea? Kirkwall certainly fit the bill after the Thrask incident. 

Still the turning them tranquil bit still doesn't make much sense when you look at Chantry law regarding tranquility in the first place as well as how Meredith and Cullen spoke about it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:40 .

[blind black]

Modifié par blind black, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:40 .

[Plaintiff]

Ryzaki wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Actually, the Right of Annulment was instituted as a response to a mage rebellion: 

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Right_of_Annulment

In the incident the codex describes, there was only one abomination and it escaped into the countryside. The mages remaining in the Nevarran Circle were very much not possessed, and were rebelling of their own free will. But Divine Galatea went ahead and granted all Grand Clerics the power to "power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable".

There is no guideline for what 'irredeemable' means, leaving it entirely up to interpretation, and given the circumstances of the first Annulment, it is probable, if not likely that of the seventeen Annulments in history, most were called as a response to rebellion, rather than demonic infestation.

Ah. 

...That's...very evil empire stuff. 

Then why did Elthina reject the annullment plea? Kirkwall certainly fit the bill after the Thrask incident. 

Well we don't know when she rejected it. Meredith probably petitioned her just prior to the very beginning of Act 3, before the **** had really hit the fan. We could also chalk it up as Elthina's general unwillingness to do pretty much anything that could be considered as taking a stand. She probably thought she could slap a bandaid on a tumor and nobody would notice.

[Ryzaki]

Plaintiff wrote...Well we don't know when she rejected it. Meredith probably petitioned her just prior to the very beginning of Act 3, before the **** had really hit the fan. We could also chalk it up as Elthina's general unwillingness to do pretty much anything that could be considered as taking a stand. She probably thought she could slap a bandaid on a tumor and nobody would notice.

 

Ah true. 

I wish she wasn't so darn nice and neutral. It's maddening. 

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

@LobselVith8

This is true, because he rightly expected the Orlesians in a plot against Fereldan. That was pretty much supported by the discovery at Return to Ostagar and the fact that Eamon was trying to get rid of Anora to marry Cailan to Celine. [/quote]

Which is pretty much confirmed by what King Alistair and Bann Tegan tell Hawke in "King Alistair," since some of the Orlesians want to conquer Ferelden once again.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I disagree with Chantry controlled anything but Chantries (which should be abundantly clear). My whole argument is that the Circles and the Templars need to be secular and work in concert. And what about the Templars' families-- you think the mages aren't going to hit those men and women where they live? How many thousands die then? No one will have clean hands. The first strike was taken by a mage in the name of suffered injustice. The second by a Templar in the name of fear. Everything else is reactionary. [/quote]

The problem is, do you see the upcoming war between the mages and the templars leading to the two factions working together? As I said before, that could have worked with Hawke aiding Ser Thrask and his templar and mage initiative, but the Champion was denied the opportunity to make it a reality. Instead, the world is on the brink of war, and I don't see a compromise being possible.

Again, I think your proposal is an ideal situation, and I don't disagree that it could have worked - primarily with Hawke working with Ser Thrask, if "Best Served Cold" wasn't written by space monkeys who didn't understand that a pro-mage Hawke shouldn't be attacked by mages and templars who want to oust Meredith, especially after publicly attacking her dictatorship.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I might add that Grace waited years to turn on a man who was trying to protect her and make a new way and overthrow her opressors just so she could strike at the Champion and didn't give hot snot if Thrask was kind or cared about her safety. [/quote]

Grace was another insane mage from Starkhaven's Circle of Magi who was insane simply to be insane - we already had Decimus and serial killer Quentin (as Gascard was looking for him in Starkhaven's Circle of Magi), did we really need another?

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Greagoir also disagrees with the chantry-- play a blood mage through Broken Circle and he and Irving should come to your Warden's defense against Wynne and say some very interesting things. [/quote]

Only as long as The Warden claims that he's using "Grey Warden magic." I will give Greagoir credit for being willing to arrest a blood mage when he's legally supposed to kill one on sight, though.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

It's not just the right of annulment we have to figure in here-- we have to look at the entirity of Kirkwall, all it's people and what it represents in the Freemarches. I didn't go into that decision going "WOOT KILL MAGES! YUS!" I was playing a mage and I could not go back on my promise to the King, was wary of Flemeth's warning, and hurting over the loss of Anders (whom I like very much, but realized that he was afraid and wanted to die. Because I wasn't given the option to go into the fade and whip the tar out of Vengeance, I chose to help him with a knife while Anders was still himself-- before the thing inside him made him do anything else awful in the name of "justice"), [/quote]

My apostate Hawke took King Alistair's warning about Meredith seriously, too, which is why he sided with the mages against a tyrant. Killing the Circle mages for an act that they didn't commit isn't something that I condoned, especially when Meredith makes it clear she wants their executions for what Anders did.

As for Anders, I find him to be an interesting character. My Hawke was willing to accept Anders' aid; it did mean losing Sebastian, but he was pro-Chantry all the way. The Prince spoke to Fenris about handing over all the apostates in the group to the templars. If I thought Sebastian would actually help the mages as Prince of Starkhaven, I might have been willing to make a different decision, but I didn't see Sebastian using his city-state to aid the mages if it meant opposing the Chantry. He seems only willing to go so far in the pro-mage scenerio because he views it as putting the templars back in line on behalf of the Chantry.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I also needed to secure Starkhaven's help for Fereldan if I could which meant that Anders had to die anyway -regardless of how I personally felt- (Starkhaven will not always be floundering and I took Sebastian's threat seriously- even if Prince Waffles doesn't lead the charge himself he has proven adept at paying other people to do it for him-- like any monarch), and I was thinking that as a mage the only way I would get the Templars to listen to me later was to get their attention now. [/quote]

Prince Waffles?

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I'd tried that all along and made friends with the kindly Templars-- Samson, Thrask, Cullen, Keran-- trying to win their approval and support to help the mages (it's very telling I got the mystical supporter achievement in the same runthrough I first sided with the Templars). I said aloud "bless you" to Cullen when he spoke up about the surrendering mages (of which we only see three, but that doesn't mean there aren't more-- we hardly see the 'hundreds' you mention in the dead) and then to Meredith during the final confrontation. And it still comes back to the city. Thedas needs something to fight back with when Flemeth's mess hits the fan. If everyone is still at war over this then she'll mow over everything in her path uncontested. Is it a Loghain level decision- yes. Yes it is. And I stand by it even though it hurts. [/quote]

My apostate Hawke aided Keran, Thrask, and Cullen, too, but sparing three mages who will likely be watched during the Right of Annulment and then made tranquil after everything settled doesn't make up for the hundreds who will be slaughtered. The position of Viscount isn't worth the lives of the men, women, and children that Hawke can save when he opposes Meredith's Right of Annulment.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

What inspired them was that it was totally unjustified. As far as your hundreds-- those three may represent many more who, inspired by the fact that the Templars weren't all heartless monsters, decided they'd rather just call truce and see what happened rather than become part of Orsino's mad granfaloon (I refuse to call that wimpy thing a Harvester). [/quote]

Pro-templar Hawke is seen as a symbol of oppression by the mages - I doubt he'd be viewed as such if he was a moderate who ended up saving lives rather than destroying them. And if it was less horrific than the prior Rights of Annulment, I doubt the Circles of Magi would have risen up to emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. After all, I doubt it's the first time the Right of Annulment was called into question for its legitimacy.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I thought it was odd myself, but figured it was because my Wardens traveled in the company of a Templar. Later in the company of several Templars, with mods. Carroll, Cullen and Alistair. [/quote]

I'd like to think my Surana Warden simply told him he was a Grey Warden, and that Otto heard the stories.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

(Cool to know) I do agree there. Bryant may also have been killed in a skirmish we aren't privy to and his men lost their nerve and fled. If that's the case, rest in peace, good Ser. [/quote]

I suppose that makes sense. Maybe he took down some darkspawn before he took his last breath, Duncan style.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The Guardian of Andraste said he was part of the honor guard that carried her into the mountains-- he also said that the people of Haven were also descendants of all the remains of Andraste's most loyal defenders. I believe him because I talked to him, over the Codex, in this case. Brother Genetivi never met the Guardian. Haven wasn't even on the Chantry maps or Genetivi wouldn't have had such a difficult time finding it. He also said himself that the decorations in Haven predated anything the the Chantry was privy to. [/quote]

I know the Guardian mentions this if The Warden has high cunning. I agree about how interesting it is that they allow mages to live alongside non-mages in their society. I have to wonder what becomes of the people once Kolgrim was killed and the High Dragon defeated.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The Irish celebrated Crom Cruag as a notable spirit in their native pantheon, but that didn't mean they wanted the people who worshipped him actively around. They persecuted them themselves even before Christianity became the "it" thing. Further-- the spirit called Pazuzu was celebrated by the ancient peoples of the Fertile Crescent, but it was considered dangerous to do anything with him other than ask him to take his wife (a manifestation of Lilith) home because she ate babies.--- Celebrating something does not mean accepting it or finding it good, especially in ancient societies. They often gave respect to power alone and tried to curry favor with entities they believed governed dangerous elements to avoid being harmed. I will point out that Merrill herself says that usually meetings with "ashabellanar" end up with people hanging from the trees in little pieces. [/quote]

That's a possibility about the Chasind and their view on Flemeth. It's hard to know their perspective since we know so little about them, except that the Chasind believe the early shamans were taught magic by Flemeth, who they regard as "the greatest witch of the wilds."

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

She opposed what Merrill was doing because the Eluvian was tainted in a manner that could not be fixed saved by communion with an evil spirit. Communion with any spirit is dangerous (look at Anders and what became of poor Justice-- turned into a slavering wild creature ready to strike down even defenseless mage girls who dare question his vision), but doubly so when one is painfully naïve and in search of importance-- something a demon will seize on quickly and manipulate. To fan her pride and make her think that only her, only THIS eluvian could save her people. Merrill had no business being a blood mage. Ever.  [/quote]

Merrill fixed the corruption in the shard, which is why she wasn't tainted while the corrupted elves in the Elven Ruins were because of the shards of the Eluvian that remained (in Witch Hunt).

We're going to have to disagree about blood magic - The Joining can be viewed as blood magic, the Grey Wardens have mages who use blood magic, Gaider said the phylacteries could be viewed as blood magic at PAX, Finn used blood magic, and personally speaking, my Surana Warden used blood magic along with my apostate Hawke, so it would be hypocritical of me to say people shouldn't use blood magic when there are good people who use it. Merrill certainly doesn't abuse her blood magic abilities.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Given the manner in which the building exploded, it looks like a giant crushing prison spell shaping the charge. Given the fact that it's red, like Kirkwall's strange corrupted Lyrium, I would say it's some sort of enchantment rather than just an explosion. [/quote]

It seemed to be a combination of magic and the ingredients, but both were instrumental in the destruction.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

And you know them all? (teasing, but it needed to be said) I think the common people are going to play a large role in what does or does not happen in later games. Winning their favor is going to be the deciding factor in how successful Hawke and the Warden are against what's coming down the road. [/quote]

The common people have been indocturinated for centuries to view magic and mages with distrust and disdain. The Circle of Magi was the greatest advantage that the Chantry led forces had against the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches, so I believe the mages stand a chance to maintain their independence. I think, if Hawke is truly the leader that the mages have been waiting for (as Anders repeatedly told my apostate Hawke), the revolution for the mages could be won.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Anders, without having known Wesley at all, says horrible vile sexual things to his widow simply because that man was a Templar. [/quote]

This is in the wake of Anders' first love being turned tranquil, and Anders mercy killing him so he wouldn't live out his days as a "templar puppet."

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Aveline showed remarkable restraint in not killing him on the spot. It takes him awhile to admit Thrask is a decent human being. He is blinded by Vengeance's fixation on Templars as the source of all evil against mages, instead of rightly laying it at the Chantry's feet. [/quote]

The templars are the military arm of the Chantry, though.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Anders refused to talk to Elthina. I brought him to the Chantry on several occasions in quiet times and whenever I suggested he talk with her he flew off the handle and said something stupid or he refused. [/quote]

When Hawke went to see Grand Cleric Elthina, she never did her job, never did anything about the people within her administration trying to incite a war with the Qunari, never did anything about Ser Alrik's actions against the mages, and ignored what was going on despite being the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall (and, as her codex entry notes, Meredith's superior).

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Elthina, via conversation with Sebastian, has little real power over Meredith. She's simply left to try and prevent the Divine from exhaultedly marching on Kirkwall and getting the whole city involved. It's not a great place to be, as far as decision making is concerned. Kind of like the decisions at the end of the game. [/quote]

Elthina simply does nothing about Meredith. We see how easily the templars defer to her authority in the opening of Act III, and even Meredith is immediately shut down when she wants to put Orsino in chains. However, she doesn't act on the fact that the Knight-Commander has become a dictator, or that the commoners, the nobles, the mages, and even some of the templars could want to see Meredith ousted from power.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I prefer him as a Warden too. I adore Carver. I'm also quite fond of Uncle Gamlen, despite him being onery and sour. It felt good to send Charade to meet him. [/quote]

I agree.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The difference is that Merrill's back isn't up against the wall like the Warden or Hawke's. She is obsessed with this one eluvian being the key to her people's past and that she is the only one who can fix it (she never even offers to bury it and mark it to come back for later after the Dalish have had a grand court together so she can talk to other Keepers and see what they think about it). No. It has to be her. Right now. And that is what makes her no different than Meredith. [/quote]

The clans are always on the move because the templars hunt down their mages, so it's not possible to get together all the Keepers of the clans on a whim. Merrill wants to change the plight of her people, which has lasted for centuries. A chance that may irrevocably improve their lives is better than no chance at all, and Hawke discovers that templars tortured a child hunter in Act II (which the templars admitted to doing to get Feynriel) and the Dalish mention that the Chantry is trying to force them to convert to the Chant of Light with threats.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote... 

It's ambiguous. I think he means the Seekers because he says "You" to Cassandra. I'm not saying the Templars aren't fighting the mages, I just don't think they left the Order specifically to do it. Particularly not when the Chantry would already support that kind of thing in it's infinite corruption. [/quote]

But Varric states that "the templars rebelled as well." I don't know why, as I'd assume the Chantry would want the templars to hunt down the mages. Apparently, Gaider's novel is supposed to address the mage and templar rebellion. Why I need to purchase a novel to understanding the ending of a game I purchased months ago...

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

My apostate viscount cared for everyone and didn't draw lines in the same place Anders demanded they be drawn. It hurt her just as much to think of the mages slaughtering the Templars as the Templars doing the reverse--- but she'd been asked to fulfill a duty to the people of Kirkwall and to Fereldan and possibly all of Thedas. It's not a great thing. If she'd had the opportunity, at that moment, to let someone else do it-- she probably would have. But the point is there is no one else. No one could save either side. No one could save her. No one could save Anders. [/quote]

Except the templars were following orders; the mages were defending their lives against their attackers.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Boy, I hope so. I actually gave land to the Dalish with my main Mage Warden because I figured Greagoir was an okay guy and Irving and he had a good thing going at Fereldan's tower once they got it all settled back in but the Dalish needed some place to start building that future of theirs. I am pleased that the King and Queen take such a good view of mages in general though. Especially since Alistair knows the tragedy of the Templars from the inside and can speak to both sides equally. [/quote]

Did you mod the game to make your Dalish Warden a mage? And King Alistair seems to be protecting apostates from the templars, and arguing for the Magi boon several years after the Chantry said no.

[Marduksdragon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...Well we don't know when she rejected it. Meredith probably petitioned her just prior to the very beginning of Act 3, before the **** had really hit the fan. We could also chalk it up as Elthina's general unwillingness to do pretty much anything that could be considered as taking a stand. She probably thought she could slap a bandaid on a tumor and nobody would notice.

 

Ah true. 

I wish she wasn't so darn nice and neutral. It's maddening. 

THIS. If she'd just done something, anything, (heck, pay Zevran to off Meredith AND Orsino in their sleep and start over) Hawke wouldn't have had to put up with half the BS that went on. I would like Elthina just fine as a person to know, but as a leader she sucks. She gets people hurt with her indecisions even as she tries to make that work in a protective manner (stopping an Exhaulted March).

[dgcatanisiri]

Ryzaki wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...Well we don't know when she rejected it. Meredith probably petitioned her just prior to the very beginning of Act 3, before the **** had really hit the fan. We could also chalk it up as Elthina's general unwillingness to do pretty much anything that could be considered as taking a stand. She probably thought she could slap a bandaid on a tumor and nobody would notice.

 

Ah true. 

I wish she wasn't so darn nice and neutral. It's maddening. 

"What makes a good man go neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"

Modifié par dgcatanisiri, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:28 .

[TEWR]

I know the Guardian mentions this if The Warden has high cunning. I agree about how interesting it is that they allow mages to live alongside non-mages in their society. I have to wonder what becomes of the people once Kolgrim was killed and the High Dragon defeated.

I wonder if the Disciples of Andraste living alongside mages is proof that Andraste was a mage and/or her words "Magic must serve man, not rule over him." were said with an entirely different thought process than the Chantry thinks.

I'd like to think both, because I truly believe the Chantry twisted those words around. What's interesting is that the Chantry established Circles because of the incident with the Cathedral, but how did mages live prior to that incident?

[Marduksdragon]

@LobselVith8

*high five with imaginary Loghain who just looks slightly offended*

I think with the introduction Cassandra, her growing compassion and her bid for peace, it might be. I hold out hope. In the meantime I will offer peace to the mages that want it, and have words with or kill anyone I have to to ensure that the moderate vision goes forward (and since it's moderate, not Anders style blowing up buildings eh? But I'd certainly knife the new grand cleric... or my poor new Knight-Commander Cullen... or even Sebastian). I would hate to lose Cullen, but even he's on the chopping block if necessary. I will have freedom for the slaves-- but all the slaves. Differentiating because the Templars are made to obey by brainwashing and addiction (and murder, with all the hangings) instead of just threat of force does no one any credit. What do you think would happen if all the Templars refused? Where would all the lyrium they need to stay sane come from? Not everyone has the internal fortitude of Samson-- a lot of people die during withdrawel or go completely mad (as seen in DAO). Bottom line they are all slaves fighting each other while the Chantry watches. Makes me think the Divine sitting on her little embroidered couch in Orlais with popcorn screaming "let them eat cake" as she watches them suffer and die.

Yes, I sat through that entire quest going "what?" and "Are you kidding me?" repeatedly. When Grace sacrificed Thrask I swore at her.

Unfortunately if we can't handwave the rest of it, we can't wave Grace's madness away either.

Greagoir is awesome. That handwave he does as long as the words aren't said indicates to me he knows the real score, the man's been hunting blood mages for years, he just doesn't believe it's all bad (and neither does Irving).

See, I'd always planned to kill Meredith. I would have killed her sooner if I'd been able to. I figured, going in there, that this was it and if it was anything like DAO I would get my chance to turn on her.

I hate to say this, but I would have turned Anders and Merrill over to the Templars myself even as an apostate. Merrill scares the pants off me and I feel terrible for Anders but after Dissent he proves himself as dangerously unstable, and rivaled he nearly takes Hawke's face off in Vengeance mode before Last Straw. I turned him in for that one-- told Cullen all about his plans.

Yes, Sebastian is a wishy-washy idiot sometimes but I hope by rival-romancing him as a mage I can make him see reason. He's not a bad person at all, and has a very kind heart. He loathes Meredith and Elthina herself cautioned him about trusting the Chantry blindly. Even she doesn't do that. I need time to work on him and since we'll probably be getting Starkhaven DLC I hope I'll get it. Be interesting to see what comes of it. Besides, I didn't want him to help the Mages specifically-- I wanted him to help Fereldan. Fereldan is more important than which set of slaves have suffered the most. The point is they're both suffering (and now, unfortuantely, killing each other).

What about the lives of the men, women and children who'll die by championing the mages? Are their lives any less valuable? Are you actually saying that no mage is going to go crazy (when the game already sets us up with an alarming number mages having a prediliction for madness) with freedom and just start slaughtering anyone who looks at them funny? Or hunting down Templars and their families? Or heck, anyone whose even been friendly with one-- digging through a dead Templar's things, find a letter, go kill the person that was addressed to, because hey-- we're justified, they supported our oppressors. I see it as a chain reaction of death and since the mages can just rest until they recharge their mana, they don't even have to worry about their weapons breaking. Now-- not all mages will be like this, but how long before someone gets the bright idea to blood magic the others into obeying them and take control of the movement? Even with Hawke in the lead that's going to be a nightmare.

That's the ending of that particular story. Hawke hasn't had a chance to respond, yet. As the DLC goes along the ending may be just another beginning.

-- I'm sorry, but the image of that is too funny. Otto believes the Warden has sufficient street cred to be legit.

It's a nice thought. I'd like for him to have an epic sendoff.

Since there are a few survivors, and Andraste was proven to be merely a Dragon, they may re-evaluate the direction of the cult. It is possible, if anyone has the balls to talk to the Guardian, that it may change. I'm actually considering a playthrough where I kill Genetivi (even though I like him) to keep the Urn out of the main Chantry's hands and protect the remaining survivors in Haven.

Truth. I lament the excised Chasind origin from the first game. That would have been mad fun to play.

She fixed it with the help of a Demon.

:lol:I don't hate blood magic (when did I say I did?) and I agree with most of what you said. I just don't support Merrill being a blood mage just because she can and thinks she should be. As I said, she scares me. I can't even romance her because I find her incredibly disturbing. I do support Avernus, and Jowan, and that little blond girl that turns on the others in the Circle Tower. They have proven, in times of stress, that they will resist demons. Avernus did for hundreds of years. Merrill can't even make it through someone else's dreams--- which even Jowan manages.

And that's another reason I think peace can be had from the other side. The mages can't stand against the Qunari alone either.

And that gives him free reign to blurt out hateful things at Aveline? She wasn't even speaking to him.

The templars are the military arm of the Chantry,  who are abused, drug-addicted slaves that get executed on their Knight-Commander's whim and when they go so crazy they are useless they're killed or put in places like Aeonar.

This is true, but Anders never approached her calmly either. He immediately started being a jerk. If he can't contain himself how can he expect Elthina to seriously consider anything he says. He didn't even bring his manifesto.

Elthina only has power over Meredith in public, as far as I can see. In private she seems to have little or none either because she's just that ineffectual (which is possible) or because Meredith interprets her orders 'creatively' -- in this case I believe that Meredith is trying to preserve her ideal that she's doing what's best for the people. So, of course, if she's chastized in public she'll submit. The thing is if that's the case, Elthina could have taken her down into the market and dressed her down for every wrong she committed... but then what of Orlais. They're already watching-- they sent Leliana. If she openly derided her Knight-Commander, championing the mages and the templars who supported them, what would happen to Kirkwall? Elthina believes that the Divine would order it occupied-- or destroyed-- and says as much to Sebastian.

But they do have regular meetings to trade members to keep bloodlines from becoming inbred. I don't see a problem with Merrill doing a consult with other Keepers during that period. You keep bringing this up, but the point is that the same behaviors have been going on for centuries. If Merrill really wants to stop it, she has to first take steps not to make it worse. What if she opened that mirror and whatever was on the other side killed every elf in Thedas? It's the remnant of a time she does not understand and while it's a communciation device, it might be set for the color of madness or something. She didn't even speculate about that. Just about what it might do to her. That is dangerously irresponsible, especially when everyone including the Keeper is warning her not to do it.

The Templars rebel, likely, because they're tired of being slaves too. If the mages can be free, why can't they? Oh yes... I'm getting quite tired of the tie-in novels. Especially if they contradict things we've seen in a game we've already paid for.

And I say the Templars were defending their own lives as well--- considering they're executed by hanging if they disobey-- or have the lyrium taken away which either destroys their minds or kills them (except in rare cases like Samson). There are no winners in this scenario. No matter which side you pick.

As a Surana I got the glitch that sometimes allows you to pick other endings. It carried over. He protects them even without the boon-- because Al is a considerate human being. I wish Hawke had been able to steer Best Served Cold in the appropriate direction, she would have been able to express her love and consideration as well. Unfortunately it's a Loghain/King Bhelen situation where I think the best path isn't the nice friendly one.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 04 juillet 2011 - 01:59 .

[Marduksdragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I know the Guardian mentions this if The Warden has high cunning. I agree about how interesting it is that they allow mages to live alongside non-mages in their society. I have to wonder what becomes of the people once Kolgrim was killed and the High Dragon defeated.

I wonder if the Disciples of Andraste living alongside mages is proof that Andraste was a mage and/or her words "Magic must serve man, not rule over him." were said with an entirely different thought process than the Chantry thinks.

I'd like to think both, because I truly believe the Chantry twisted those words around. What's interesting is that the Chantry established Circles because of the incident with the Cathedral, but how did mages live prior to that incident?

I've often thought Andraste might have been a blood mage, the way they describe her music enthralling others. She might have been a 'holy' blood mage though-- using her magic in service of her god. If it can be used to step into his Golden City-- why not to carry songs of love and penitance to him?

[TEWR]

Marduksdragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I know the Guardian mentions this if The Warden has high cunning. I agree about how interesting it is that they allow mages to live alongside non-mages in their society. I have to wonder what becomes of the people once Kolgrim was killed and the High Dragon defeated.

I wonder if the Disciples of Andraste living alongside mages is proof that Andraste was a mage and/or her words "Magic must serve man, not rule over him." were said with an entirely different thought process than the Chantry thinks.

I'd like to think both, because I truly believe the Chantry twisted those words around. What's interesting is that the Chantry established Circles because of the incident with the Cathedral, but how did mages live prior to that incident?

I've often thought Andraste might have been a blood mage, the way they describe her music enthralling others. She might have been a 'holy' blood mage though-- using her magic in service of her god. If it can be used to step into his Golden City-- why not to carry songs of love and penitance to him?

What I don't get is, if spirits recreate things in the Fade, how do we know what we see as the Golden City (now the Black City) wasn't a creation of the spirits?


As for Andraste being a blood mage, that would be interesting. Because then she's acknowledging blood magic isn't inherently evil. Though I doubt she enthralled many people, if any as it takes a lot of willpower to enthrall people. Personally, I subscribe to the theory that she's the Dumat OGB, who is in turn Flemeth.


Right now I'm researching Andraste and Dumat, to see if it adds up even more.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:42 .

[Ryzaki]

 

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...Well we don't know when she rejected it. Meredith probably petitioned her just prior to the very beginning of Act 3, before the **** had really hit the fan. We could also chalk it up as Elthina's general unwillingness to do pretty much anything that could be considered as taking a stand. She probably thought she could slap a bandaid on a tumor and nobody would notice.

 

Ah true. 

I wish she wasn't so darn nice and neutral. It's maddening. 

"What makes a good man go neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"

 I love Futurama. 

[LobselVith8]

[quote]dgcatanisiri wrote...

"What makes a good man go neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"
[/quote]

All we need now is an Antivan robot.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

@LobselVith8

*high five with imaginary Loghain who just looks slightly offended* [/quote]

If DA3 takes place in Orlais, I wonder if Grey Warden Loghain will make an appearance. King Alistair mentions that he's still alive in "King Alistair."

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I think with the introduction Cassandra, her growing compassion and her bid for peace, it might be. I hold out hope. In the meantime I will offer peace to the mages that want it, and have words with or kill anyone I have to to ensure that the moderate vision goes forward (and since it's moderate, not Anders style blowing up buildings eh? But I'd certainly knife the new grand cleric... or my poor new Knight-Commander... or even Sebastian). [/quote]

Cassandra's view of Hawke seems to change - from thinking that he was an apostate spreading subversion against the Chantry to looking almost enamored when hearing that he fought the Arishok in single combat. Whether that will make any difference remains to be seen, since it seems that the disappearance of The Warden and Hawke is tied to another event.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I would hate to lose Cullen, but even he's on the chopping block if necessary. I will have freedom for the slaves-- but all the slaves. Differentiating because the Templars are made to obey by brainwashing and addiction (and murder, with all the hangings) instead of just threat of force does no one any credit. What do you think would happen if all the Templars refused? Where would all the lyrium they need to stay sane come from? Not everyone has the internal fortitude of Samson-- a lot of people die during withdrawel or go completely mad (as seen in DAO). Bottom line they are all slaves fighting each other while the Chantry watches. Makes me think the Divine sitting on her little embroidered couch in Orlais with popcorn screaming "let them eat cake" as she watches them suffer and die. [/quote]

It seems like all the templars did refuse in rebelling against the Chantry. I'd have to wonder how the templars rebelled in the first place from the Chantry, considering their lyrium addiction. Did they commander control of the lyrium trade, or are they going forward without lyrium at all?

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Yes, I sat through that entire quest going "what?" and "Are you kidding me?" repeatedly. When Grace sacrificed Thrask I swore at her.

Unfortunately if we can't handwave the rest of it, we can't wave Grace's madness away either. [/quote]

It seems to be a trademark of the Starkhaven Circle - she's insane along with Starkhaven's Decimus and Quentin. It only cemented my view that the abolition of the Circles of Magi needed to happen, especially considering Quentin's murder of Leandra.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Greagoir is awesome. That handwave he does as long as the words aren't said indicates to me he knows the real score, the man's been hunting blood mages for years, he just doesn't believe it's all bad (and neither does Irving). [/quote]

I give him credit for not trying to kill The Warden immediately upon learning he's a blood mage, and for basically accepting The Warden's "Grey Warden magic" explanation even though it seems like Irving is basically pulling his additional explanation from his rear.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

See, I'd always planned to kill Meredith. I would have killed her sooner if I'd been able to. I figured, going in there, that this was it and if it was anything like DAO I would get my chance to turn on her. [/quote]

I prefer the alternative - Hawke is so reactive throughout the storyline that helping the mages seemed like the one meaningful choice that the protagonist could make (for me). Although it's pretty much identical to pro-templar Hawke, since both "disappear" in three years, and the mages emancipate themselves and the templars rebel, so there isn't much difference except for who sees Hawke as a hero and who sees him as a villain.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I hate to say this, but I would have turned Anders and Merrill over to the Templars myself even as an apostate. Merrill scares the pants off me and I feel terrible for Anders but after Dissent he proves himself as dangerously unstable, and rivaled he nearly takes Hawke's face off in Vengeance mode before Last Straw. I turned him in for that one-- told Cullen all about his plans. [/quote]

I would have advised Anders to seek out the seers in the Kingdom of Rivain - I'd like to imagine my apostate Hawke does so after Meredith becomes a lyrium statute. As for Merrill, my Hawke was a blood mage, too, so I didn't have a problem with her using it. As for the Eluvian, Merrill studied it, while Marethari had some speculation about what her ancestors would have wanted.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Yes, Sebastian is a wishy-washy idiot sometimes but I hope by rival-romancing him as a mage I can make him see reason. He's not a bad person at all, and has a very kind heart. He loathes Meredith and Elthina herself cautioned him about trusting the Chantry blindly. Even she doesn't do that. I need time to work on him and since we'll probably be getting Starkhaven DLC I hope I'll get it. Be interesting to see what comes of it. Besides, I didn't want him to help the Mages specifically-- I wanted him to help Fereldan. Fereldan is more important than which set of slaves have suffered the most. The point is they're both suffering (and now, unfortuantely, killing each other). [/quote]

Sebastian does talk about a "political alliance" as Prince of Starkhaven with the Viscount of Kirkwall, if romanced. Interestingly, he said my apostate Hawke should have become Viscount of Kirkwall, but that wasn't an option with templars controlling eastern Thedas and the Prince's desire to put down the mages. I always found it odd that he never mentions that Hawke is an apostate - even Fenris mentions it. Even his dialogue with Fenris about handing apostates over excludes Hawke if he's an illegal mage.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

What about the lives of the men, women and children who'll die by championing the mages? Are their lives any less valuable? Are you actually saying that no mage is going to go crazy (when the game already sets us up with an alarming number mages having a prediliction for madness) with freedom and just start slaughtering anyone who looks at them funny? Or hunting down Templars and their families? Or heck, anyone whose even been friendly with one-- digging through a dead Templar's things, find a letter, go kill the person that was addressed to, because hey-- we're justified, they supported our oppressors. I see it as a chain reaction of death and since the mages can just rest until they recharge their mana, they don't even have to worry about their weapons breaking. Now-- not all mages will be like this, but how long before someone gets the bright idea to blood magic the others into obeying them and take control of the movement? Even with Hawke in the lead that's going to be a nightmare. [/quote]

There are always casualties in war, and there's certainly going to be a war between the mages and the templars. A number of mages - including Leandra's murderer - come from the Chantry controlled Circles. For nearly a millennia the mages have lived under subjugation to the Chantry and its templars. And given how many times Anders said that Hawke was the leader that the mages have been waiting for, I'd imagine Hawke would be a leader of the movement.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Since there are a few survivors, and Andraste was proven to be merely a Dragon, they may re-evaluate the direction of the cult. It is possible, if anyone has the balls to talk to the Guardian, that it may change. I'm actually considering a playthrough where I kill Genetivi (even though I like him) to keep the Urn out of the main Chantry's hands and protect the remaining survivors in Haven. [/quote]

You don't even need to kill Genitivi - I had him head off to Denerim immediately, but never spoke to him again, and Dragon Age 2 doesn't acknowledge the Urn of Sacred Ashes being found (since the quest pertaining to its discovery never happens). I guess without any confirmation, he couldn't lead his expedition to the Frostback Mountains.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

She fixed it with the help of a Demon. [/quote]

Merrill needed to cleanse the shard, and didn't have the sufficient amount of lyrium to do it. She needed to use blood magic instead, and learned it from Audacity.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I don't hate blood magic (when did I say I did?) and I agree with most of what you said. I just don't support Merrill being one just because she can and thinks she should be. As I said, she scares me. I can't even romance her because I find her incredibly disturbing. I do support Avernus, and Jowan, and that little blond girl that turns on the others in the Circle Tower. They have proven, in times of stress, that they will resist demons. Avernus did for hundreds of years. Merrill can't even make it through someone else's dreams--- which even Jowan manages. [/quote]

My Surana Warden was pragmatic and told Avernus to continue his research - given the seriousness of the Blight, the darkspawn need to be stopped, no matter the cost. He did spare Jowan and let him go - I suppose to become Master Levyn and protect refugees.

As for Merrill, "Night Terrors" railroads everyone into betrayal. I have trouble blaming Merrill for a quest that forces every companion to try to murder Hawke because the Plot Dictates.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

And that's another reason I think peace can be had from the other side. The mages can't stand against the Qunari alone either.

And that gives him free reign to blurt out hateful things at Aveline? She wasn't even speaking to him. [/quote]

I'm just addressing that Aveline's not the only person who lost someone - Anders also had to kill the person that he loved, and recently.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The templars are the military arm of the Chantry,  who are abused, drug-addicted slaves that get executed on their Knight-Commander's whim and when they go so crazy they are useless they're killed or put in places like Aeonar.

This is true, but Anders never approached her calmly either. He immediately started being a jerk. If he can't contain himself how can he expect Elthina to seriously consider anything he says. He didn't even bring his manifesto. [/quote]

Hawke is the one who approached her, and every time (whether it was about Petrice, the Qunari, or the mages) she did nothing.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Elthina only has power over Meredith in public, as far as I can see. In private she seems to have little or none either because she's just that ineffectual (which is possible) or because Meredith interprets her orders 'creatively' -- in this case I believe that Meredith is trying to preserve her ideal that she's doing what's best for the people. So, of course, if she's chastized in public she'll submit. The thing is if that's the case, Elthina could have taken her down into the market and dressed her down for every wrong she committed... but then what of Orlais. They're already watching-- they sent Leliana. If she openly derided her Knight-Commander, championing the mages and the templars who supported them, what would happen to Kirkwall? Elthina believes that the Divine would order it occupied-- or destroyed-- and says as much to Sebastian. [/quote]

Elthina does have power - she's the one who turns down Meredith's demand to put Orsino in chains and tells her to be a "good girl." Elthina is loved by the people and is a popular Grand Cleric, which is likely why the inept Sister Nightingale wanted her to go to Orlais - it's doubtful the people would have looked kindly on an Exalted March of Kirkwall with Elthina remaining in the city-state, given her popularity. All Elthina would need to do is to tell Meredith to stand down as the de facto Viscount and to look into the cases of mage abuse at the hands of the templars, but she doesn't do anything.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

But they do have regular meetings to trade members to keep bloodlines from becoming inbred. I don't see a problem with Merrill doing a consult with other Keepers during that period. You keep bringing this up, but the point is that the same behaviors have been going on for centuries. If Merrill really wants to stop it, she has to first take steps not to make it worse. What if she opened that mirror and whatever was on the other side killed every elf in Thedas? It's the remnant of a time she does not understand and while it's a communciation device, it might be set for the color of madness or something. She didn't even speculate about that. Just about what it might do to her. That is dangerously irresponsible, especially when everyone including the Keeper is warning her not to do it. [/quote]

That's every ten years, if they can manage it. Merrill also, according to Gaider, studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard. Merrill was more informed about the Eluvian than anyone else in the storyline, and we have seen that it leads to a place "beyond this world, and beyond the Fade" in Witch Hunt. Since Ariane's clan was aware of what happened to Marethari's clan, it's likely the two encountered one another, which means Merrill might have read the same book about the Eluvians that Morrigan did, unless the elven mage who escaped from the Circle encountered Ariane's clan some time later.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The Templars rebel, likely, because they're tired of being slaves too. If the mages can be free, why can't they? Oh yes... I'm getting quite tired of the tie-in novels. Especially if they contradict things we've seen in a game we've already paid for. [/quote]

I wish the ending of Dragon Age 2 actually explained why they rebelled as well. I dislike the idea that I need to buy a novel to understand the ending that I saw. Mages rebelled even in the pro-templar ending, and the explanation that's given doesn't really make any sense - how does a pro-templar Hawke show the mages that the templars can be defied when he leads them to victory? It bothers me that some elements of the pro-mage scenerio only make sense for the pro-templar scenerio, and vice versa.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

And I say the Templars were defending their own lives as well--- considering they're executed by hanging if they disobey-- or have the lyrium taken away which either destroys their minds or kills them (except in rare cases like Samson). There are no winners in this scenario. No matter which side you pick. [/quote]

If you mean the Right of Annulment, it's still armed and armored soldiers attacking hundreds of men, women, and children because "they were following orders." I feel like apostate Hawke should be coming out of the Gallows pulling a Magneto and saying: "my people have been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again."

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

As a Surana I got the glitch that sometimes allows you to pick other endings. It carried over. He protects them even without the boon-- because Al is a considerate human being. I wish Hawke had been able to steer Best Served Cold in the appropriate direction, she would have been able to express her love and consideration as well. Unfortunately it's a Loghain/King Bhelen situation where I think the best path isn't the nice friendly one. [/quote]

Did you bring Merrill with you in "King Alistair"? Because she's supposed to ask about the Dalish boon if you do. I know King Alistair providing the boon can get bugged for some of the royal boons, although there are mods avaliable that fix the bad flags in DA:O. I'm guessing since you spared Loghain that Queen Anora provided the boon for your Warden, though. I did the same thing with my Surana Warden.

[Rifneno]

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

@Rifneno

Same respect back to you. I think we're having a lovely conversation, despite disagreeing.[/quote]

Good to hear.

[quote]Do you imagine war to be only a neatly as you describe?[/quote]

Huh? Only a neatly? Missed a word there? To answer best as I can, I'm a firm believer in the "war is hell" cliche. I used to have a friend that was on disability because he was on the frontlines in... somewhere the elicits stupid political responses when named. But suffice to say, he was in the front lines on enemy soil and it totally screwed him up. His unit killed a lot of people, many of them civilians. And even still, he's the first one to say it was the right call. None of them would have made it out if they didn't do what they had to do. That's what war is. It's ugly, it's horrible, and you simply cannot expect to apply everyday ethics to it. Innocent people are going to be killed by both sides. That's why war should always be a last resort. But one it has come to war, you best be ready to spill gallons of blood if it means stopping lakes of blood from being spilled later by someone else.

This isn't to say civilian life should be completely disregarded. That's just monstrous. It should be minimized whenever possible. Anders' actions should be viewed as the whole, not just the here and now. What I mean by that is, the benefits need to be weighed against the damage. He sparked a war, but it's likely that war will result in the mages' oppression coming to an end. When we consider that said oppression has been going on for nearly a thousand years across multiple nations, I find it difficult to condemn the man. He probably prevented far more death and suffering than he caused.

[quote]Hardliner? I hate the Chantry in Orlais with the same kind of blinding ire that I reserve for the Orlesians in general. Supporting the Templars and what they do as a function (protect mages and the general population from them) is entirely seperate than thinking the Divine has a right to come in and stomp on things because she's in a tiff over how uppity the mages have gotten.[/quote]

True enough. But almost no one suggests that there shouldn't be someone policing mages. I've only seen a couple of posts advocate that in months of debating the subject. And hell, they might've been sarcasm I missed, tone carries poorly over text as we all know. So it's not really pro-templar to believe in some policing of mages and/or mandatory training. Virtually everyone agrees on that. The dispute is in how it's handled and who handles it. Many of us (myself included) feel the Chantry simply cannot be trusted with such a responsibility. You clearly know a great deal about the crusades and likely a lot of similar history so I doubt I have to tell you religious organizations with military power rarely ends well. I'm tempted to get into psychobabble theories on the why but I'm afraid of provoking the wrath of a different higher power: the moderators. Suffice to say, most of the pro-mage group simply feels that the templar order itself is too corrupt or too set in its ways to be salvaged into a fair and just watchdog rather than its current incarnation: Cujo.

[quote]Mages can't police themselves effectively because of what we've seen in Uldred's case--- Possessed mages can implant demons in other Mages even if they're only made willing by torture (thus unleashing more abominations) or sleep--- not genuine interest in whatever "gift" the spirit wishes to bestow. To do this to a Templar requires days more work with several mages working together.[/quote]

How do you figure? We really weren't given much information on either. We didn't get much information on how long either the mages in the Ferelden Circle or Kirkwall's templar apprentices were "persuaded" to merge. We know Keran was missing for a few days at least but not sure if it was all in that... whatever he was in when Hawke finds him. And he may've just been an exceptionally strong-willed person. It was implied Uldred had been trying to convert Irving for quite a while too.

I think mages would police themselves fairly well actually. If for no other reason than because they'd know how precious their new freedom is and it hinges on their kind proving themselves worthy of the trust. I don't, however, think they should be their sole law enforcement. They should be a significant part of it but there definitely should be normal people using lyrium for magic resistance as well.

[quote]This means the Templars are necessary. I just think they should be secular and regulated like the Guard. It doesn't mean they have to be any less religious themselves if they choose to be, just that they don't need to be commanded by a religious leader who does not have their best interests in mind - let alone the best interests of their charges. And they already choose not to be, by game's end titles.[/quote]

And this is why one should read an entire message before starting a reply. To save oneself all the typing I just did to longwindedly explain something it turns out I didn't need to hehe.

[quote]The difference is that Al Qaeda was always a terrorist organization, one the American CIA funded during the cold war to bedevil the communists- (unlike the Templars you lump them in with, who had the unpleasant main task of fighting off bandits trying to accost people on the road, and keeping the smaller unwalled villages clear of criminals.) it was specifically formed to "annoy the neighbors" in various ways.[/quote]

I didn't mean they were equal in regards to how dark their methods and goals are, just in that they're both a religious military forcing their beliefs on everyone they can. It's certainly not a perfect analogy, but I do think it's a lot more apt than comparing the Chantry to American churches.

[quote]Anders, who is starting this 'glorious revolution' is the one blowing up buildings full of innocent people. Granted there were Templars in there too, but Vengeance hardly checked for the serving staff, that guy with the pox who is always praying in there, etc... And the fallout from the building is going to do a great deal of harm to a lot of innocent people- none of which Vengeance cares about at all. (I'd kill anyone in this city to see mages free) He cares about only his ideals-- much like Meredith (who is also crazy).[/quote]

First, innocent people die in any war with bombs. I'm sure a whole lot of civilians were killed by bombs dropped on Germany in WWII. (And for the peanut gallery, it's not Godwin's Law because I didn't make a comparison to Hitler, I used WWII because it's the last war we've been in that won't lead to "We shouldn't have been there anyway omg!" responses.) Second, there's no basis for saying he doesn't care about life. He waited for more than half a decade before attacking and showed sorrow for doing it. He just felt it had to be done. Yes, he says he'd kill anyone in the city to see mages free. What of it? Do you really think a few innocent lives is more important than a multinational oppression of an entire minority? He's doing what a strong and responsible person often must in war: sacrificing the few to save the many. It sucks to see them being sacrificed, but that's not the whole picture. We don't see the alternative, hundreds of years more of countless mages across multiple countries being murdered, raped, and abused. We get three acts of Elthina's "nice old lady" bit, but we don't see the sweet little farmer's daughter 50 years later develop magic and wind up hanging herself because she can't take any more of the templar rapes. Not just because it's happening in the future; because Anders prevents it from happening.

[quote]Compared to Cullen, who will stand up to Meredith to protect the mages when push comes to shove -- who will differentiate even during a fight between combatants as 'enemies' or 'innocents',[/quote]

He complained a little bit during a genocide. Not what I'd call standing up to her. The only time he stands up is when Meredith tries to kill Hawke, which made about as much sense as Orsino's stunt minutes earlier. The actual annulment, he helped participate in. Where is the "one innocent is too many" mentality for Cullen?

[quote]Vengeance is more clearly the type of terrorist you describe with the "Al Qaeda" label. But i don't put that label on Anders. What he really reminds me of is Guy Fawkes and Herostratus (the man who burned the Temple of Artemis to make a point and 'be remembered forever' although most people do not, in fact, know his name)- only the demon he's ridden by isn't faith or pride-- it's a literal Demon.[/quote]

Quite ironic, since the magistrate ruled his name be stricken from the records. It really should have been lost, I can't imagine what the criminal who recorded his name for history was thinking. As for Anders/Justice, I wish people would stop referring to Justice as a demon. They left it an open-ended question as to whether he's truly a demon now. Too many people and wiki trolls seem to think it's simply fact. If anything, I'm inclined to think he's technically a demon now, as the official reason he can't be separated from Anders as Connor was separated from his demon is that spirit merges are a different thing altogether.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wynne is the one who seems to make the comments you described about Uldred, and in Amaranthine, Ines mentions that Wynne nagged Uldred about his duties and probably drove him insane.[/quote]

Oh lord. That explains so much. Wynne can drive anyone to madness with her non-stop, constant, unending self-righteous preaching. I thought about feeding her to a shark, but I figure she'd just lecture its teeth until they shattered. I couldn't do it to the poor shark. Seriously, I've wanted to go the annulment route before just to kill Wynne.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Killing Meredith won't do ****. Elthina will just wring her hands and go "Oh deary me", like she has been for the better part of the decade. Meredith's paranoid bull**** will appear justified in the eyes of the templars and the general populace regardless. Word will reach the Divine, who will call an Exalted March on Kirkwall and the Templars will likely annul the Circle anyway, only without the extravagant explosion to serve as a rallying signal, the mages will continue moping around about how hopeless their situation is, right up until they get beheaded.

In any case, Elthina is just as responsible for Meredith's abuse of power as Meredith herself is. She knows exactly what the **** is up and refuses to do anything about it, even though she outranks Meredith in the Chantry chain of command. It is ridiculous to ignore Elthina and the Chantry's culpability in this. The Chantry is not a neutral party by any means, and it is not a hope for compromise. It is the root of all mage abuse. Meredith is just a symptom of the festering cancer that is Andrastism.[/quote]

*applauds*

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall the conversation between Fenris and Sebastian where the Prince tries to convince him that they should turn in all the apostates in Hawke's group.[/quote]

Seriously, any new DLC involving Sebastian better have an option to kill him. Painfully.

[quote]Blessed Silence wrote...

Mindless no, but a murderer yes.  He killed the Grand Cleric because she was neutral and wouldn't take sides. Anders even said "There would never be peace" and he killed the one piece that could make peace by blowing up the Chantry and everyone inside.[/quote]

Elthina was NOT neutral. She was charged with enforcing Chantry law over Meredith. By "not taking a side," she's taking Meredith's side. That's all there is to it. If a cop sits back and reads the newspaper while someone is being murdered in full view, he's not "neutral." I hope there's an afterlife in Thedas, and I hope Elthina's involves lots of lava.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The first strike was taken by a mage in the name of suffered injustice.[/quote]

The first strike was taken by the Chantry. I call it "hundreds of years of brutal tyranny."

[quote]I might add that Grace waited years to turn on a man who was trying to protect her and make a new way and overthrow her opressors just so she could strike at the Champion and didn't give hot snot if Thrask was kind or cared about her safety. She didn't even care what happened to her fellow mages so long as she got her digs in. I would make it a fair bet she's not the only mage to feel this way--- the Templars will suffer just as much as the mages and instead of genocide (which is a pretty word that makes things sound very dire) it will just be mass murder of the poor and disadvantaged on a grand scale. It's not any better, but the mages don't even offer quarter to the Templars, but the Templars do... and that helps me feel better about that decision ---[/quote]

Grace gets a lot of screen time, but Karras doesn't get any? You remember him, the templar who adamantly refused to offer any mage any quarter, even if they were surrendering after Hawke killed the truly bad ones? Who raped Alain repeatedly? Who implies he wants to rape Hawke in one dialogue? Who attacked his fellow templar, Thrask, just to "get his digs in?" Who refers to the Right of Annulment as "those robes getting what's coming to them?" He's as good a representative for the templars as Grace is for the mages. Much better actually, as Grace was possessed by a demon and Karras was just an evil son of a ****.

The templars don't offer quarter. Hawke does. Cullen may have complained, but Meredith gives the orders. Without Hawke, those mages were dead make no mistake. And exactly when were the mages supposed to offer quarter? When did a templar surrender? The templars bust in and just start killing and despite the fact we never see a templar trying to surrender you chide the mages for not offering quarter? Sorry but that's just an extremely poor justification.

[quote]It hurt her just as much to think of the mages slaughtering the Templars as the Templars doing the reverse[/quote]

To say there's a difference between soldiers mass murdering people whose only crime is being born wrong, and self-defense against a soldier trying to kill you (and pretty much everyone else you know and care about)... well, that's an understatement. Because they're not even worlds apart, they're galaxies apart.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

I wish she wasn't so darn nice and neutral. It's maddening.
[/quote]

Well you got your wish. That **** was never nice or neutral.

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More I wanted to reply to, but this post is already half a terabyte and I want to get back to Witcher 2.