181 réponses à ce sujet

[Marduksdragon]

@LobselVith8

I hope so. Loghain is the man.

Again, I hope.

They may have found a way to secure their own lyrium, yes, thus freeing themselves. Or just become so sick of what they were ordered to do that they would rather face madness or die.

And that's what reinforced my belief that sending mages, angry, from these places right into society without some kind of segueway was a terrible idea. Furious magicians who feel justified in punishing the people who supported the regime that kept them opressed is not a fun idea to contemplate. There was no chance to say 'we need to regroup, and I need to speak with you all" after the mage ending-- to warn them that Orsino's raving was insane, and that no one needed to sacrifice the neighbors to fight anyone, unlike Orsino's actions would suggest.

He trusts, and cares for if his reaction at the end of Broken Circle is any judge, Irving very much.

Yes, but going into the decision I was left with Alistair's request. Save the city. Protect the people. Which I did the best way I discerned how.

It's not the blood magic, again, it's the fact that it's Merrill using it. Given her personality and behavior, I still maintain that she is insane and in no fit state to judge anything as useful or not.

You get a chance to ask him about that, and I forget where but it's in the midst of another conversation (maybe it's the romance dialogue-- I'll have to look), he excludes Hawke because he believes Hawke is different and poses no dire threat to others like Merrill and Anders.

If there are always casualties in war, and that's supposed to clear my conscience, then why blame the Templars for rushing in to slaughter the circle when the first mass murder of that evening -and the event that declared war- was comitted by a mage? Also, I addressed above why I believe it's a bad idea to release the mages on an unsuspecting populace just for the same reasons you mentioned.

The quest happened in mine in the lowtown marketplace. Some guy hawking fake Ashes of Andraste. I will send Genitivi home now though, and my main warden will continue to keep those papers she got from the archive.

So, instead of perhaps waiting a bit and gathering the lyrium, she had to do it right now, and resorted to demons? If the shard was dangerous and corrupting, she could have -again- buried it with a marker and come back for it later. The Dalish are excellent trackers, I doubt she'd have a problem finding it if she had a clan-member assist her. If she felt like her life might be threatened in the interim, she could record all she had learned already in a book for others to study and look at.

I let Avernus do his thing, but asked him to keep it down because of his new neighbors. His research is very important and -as a Warden- there is no way to justify not letting him do it without sounding extremely silly or hypocritical. Jowan I let go until I got the mod that allows you to recruit and conscript him after the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Now he comes with me and joins team Circle Tower with Carroll and Cullen and Surana. He and Cullen pretty much hate eachother, which becomes interesting as the mod goes on.

And since everything is dictated by that same crazy plot and we pull up other things that lay blame on people from it and accept those, I can't discount her behavior in the Fade.

No excuse. I could see him crying over Karl (and that was a horrible moment. When I finally got to kill Alrik I wish you could have dragged him out and impaled the body somewhere as a warning.)-- or even looking for sympathy-- but to make it about Aveline's dead husband, that he must know tried to help Hawke escape the Blight despite being a Templar and Hawke an apostate, is evil.

Anders speaks to her in Hawke's company. If he has so many copies of his Manifesto that would have been the time to pull one out and address Elthina. Instead he prefers to snark and be a jerk.

I think between the both of us, we just explained why Elthina is so ineffective and can't do anything. Her hands are literally tied no matter what she does. If she helps the mages and Templars, Kirkwall will be marched on. If she suggests that Meredith step down, Meredith complains she's under the influence of all the blood magic that flies around Kirkwall--- and the city is marched on. If she leaves, Kirkwall will be marched on. In fact, Kirkwall being marched on after the mess hits the fan might be the last straw for the Templars following Cullen (and thus viscount Hawke) which may lead others to rebel. Injustice on top of injustice. This would send Viscount Hawke out of Kirkwall to lead his/her rebels against the chantry (and make sure they got enough lyrium not to go mad) and thus make any DLC again come from the same point of view-- wandering with your chosen slave army.

It's a different eluvian. This one may have well been set for the color of madness. Also, I don't trust Merrill's extrapolations given that other crazy people extrapolate about other things to great lengths in DA2, and are still crazy and dangerous no matter how right they think they are.

It's a little wierd, I admit. Unless the Templars in Kirkwall, by virtue of kneeling to Hawke and giving fealty with that gesture, become an entirely seperate group-- taking on Hawke's defiance as their own. That would be pretty inspiring, even to the 'enemy'.

Armed and armored soldiers who will die or go crazy if they don't obey. Who stands for them, in your scenario? The Chantry? The Chantry is the one abusing them and keeping them in chains. I'm not going to kill them and feel justified in doing so when they can't refuse to obey orders without suffering excruciating pain and madness or dying. It's not like they derped up there as a group and went "lets kill us some mages, boy howdy" (not that some of the crazy ones might not have felt that way-- after you spare the mages that want nothing to do with Orsino, one Templar does turn on his brothers and you have to kill him. He may have represented Meredith's loyal cronies, the ones who did Derp there to enjoy slaughtering the mages)--- the unease they show if you side with the Templars is pretty telling. They do not want to be there carrying out these crazy orders and are quick to obey Cullen who, if Meredith survived, would have been hung or expelled for defying her if he hadn't killed her. It's not even a question.

Yes-- Al was still pouting at the time so Anora did grant the boon, but I'm glad to see he and Anora worked things out even if he still wants to kill her daddy. I really do like the Queen. Ooo... I need to do that and check. What I checked was the console command that lets you see your carried plotflags (Vault, I think it is) and the dalish were highlighted.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:07 .

[TheAwesomologist]

Reaction to Anders Death (First time): Thank god I finally got him to shut up! I'm going to have to replay and see if I can't avoid this mess.
Reaction to Anders Death (Second time): So this is completely unavoidable? *continues stabbing, aka awesome button, while pondering if something is just wrong with the game* Well maybe this time I can avoid the fight with Orsino...
Reaction to Anders Death (Third time): The game didn't get any better but at least this part is satisfying *continues stabbing*

[Marduksdragon]

@Rifneno

My entire family is military, to the exclusion of only a few. My father has been a soldier for most of his life and has seen combat from Vietnam onward. He is in active service in one of those places that shall not be named now. I understand both the necessity and the horrors of war, and I disagree with Anders.

The Templar training, which any Hawke can learn is well, is the most effective way of policing mages as it is specifically an anti-magic class. If the Templars are freed of the Chantry and allowed to purge their own Order of lunatics I don't see why they should be held responsible for being a slave army who were forced to behave in the manner they were by the Chantry (as discussed in other posts here)--- if people shouldn't judge all mages by Anders or the blood mages or insane mages that crop up-- then why them? Why is it different if the shoe is on the other foot?  (I liked the Cujo joke, I laughed. I think because I was imagining Varnell barking on a leash with Petrice pulling on it....)

Keran was held for weeks, according to the initiates.
Hugs all around-- don't worry about it. I do it too as you can see above.

It's a different viewpoint. I just don't think I'm standing where you are.

And what of the Templar slaves? Who stands for them? Who stops them from being hung, tortured and abused every time they try to stop the Chantry from doing evil? What happened to the men that defied Meredith-- they were executed. All it takes is one insane Knight-Commander to bring that sort of thing on--- and in the interests of Chantry control, who do you think they usually promote to positions like that? If the Grand Cleric is soft-hearted as the one in Denerim seems to be given Mother Boann's crusade to help the city elves and Bryant's championing of the people of Lothering, you get a kind and reasonable man like Greagoir who considers the first Enchanter his friend and frets over his mages as if they were his children. If you get an ineffectual woman like Elthina, you get a Meredith whom then proceeds to murder her way through her own ranks and the group of people she's supposed to protect. Forgive me if I think the mages are better served if I manage to free the Templars from the Chantry (thus taking away the manner in which to oppress the mages and freeing the other oppressed slaves that few people seem to care about at all). Genocide is a pretty, hot button word--- but killing the Templars is the mass murder of the poor, abused and orphaned. Many of them were never given a choice in being what they are-- much like mages-- and they can't leave due to the lyrium or a potential death sentence.

He's also drugged and brainwashed. It takes that last moment for him to be himself, and totally defy Meredith. Why didn't the mages decide that one innocent is too many earlier? No one has clean hands here. I'm very proud of Cullen on both endings and believe they both made sense in context of his character (as mentioned in another post).

I believe Vengeance is a demon because he is clearly evil. Dissent sealed the deal. Prior to that I was hoping to seperate Justice and Anders. After that, even when offered the option, I had little hope it was going to work.

Tyranny they also practice on the poor by offering the only way some of them could make money to survive, Keran, by offering positions as Templars and then drugging them so they may never leave. Samson is lucky-- according to him and DAO many people do not survive detox. They either go mad or die. Tyranny they practice on the abandoned infants in their care that they decide to flesh out the ranks of their slave army with once the children become of age--- no. There are no clean hands here. The Templars are as much subjugated as the mages, it's just not genetic. It's economic.

Karras is doped up on Lyrium. His crazy is evil crazy. And he never wasn't honest about his intentions. He was always a total D-bag. Grace actually sucked up to Thrask, who was willing to fight Meredith and possibly die for her and the other mages, and then killed him without thought for him or the other mages or the Templars (who end up executed except for Samson and Keran if you plead for them) who helped just to get her digs in on Hawke. I hate Karras, but I look at Grace's betrayal as worse.

Cullen does speak up, Hawke just allows him to finish his thought and then the Templars, hearing him, prefer to obey him than Meredith. We're never even given an opportunity to with the Mages is what I'm saying. If it were important to show the mages as reasonable, they would have been. Instead we get Orsino losing his mind and urging them to acts of depravity.

Most of the Templars' only crime was being born poor or orphaned. Once they were drugged, they would be introduced to the real horrors of the Order (so says Alistair) but by then, they could never leave. If they disobeyed, they die or the Lyrium was taken away which rendered them mad, dead, or wishing they were dead.

You too, eh? They have a new Witcher 2 board at the nexus with some nice mods.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

@LobselVith8

I hope so. Loghain is the man. [/quote]

I'm curious to see his response to the Orlesians who want to conquer Ferelden again. I suppose we'll see how the nations react to the schism between the Circles of Magi and the Order of Templars from Anders' actions.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Again, I hope.

They may have found a way to secure their own lyrium, yes, thus freeing themselves. Or just become so sick of what they were ordered to do that they would rather face madness or die. [/quote]

You seem to have gone the pro-templar route as Hawke. Does Cassandra accuse the Champion of "subversion against the Chantry" if you make pro-templar decisions in Act I? If she does, I wonder if it's supposed to reflect the reasoning behind the Order of Templars splitting from the Chantry with Viscount Hawke.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

And that's what reinforced my belief that sending mages, angry, from these places right into society without some kind of segueway was a terrible idea. Furious magicians who feel justified in punishing the people who supported the regime that kept them opressed is not a fun idea to contemplate. There was no chance to say 'we need to regroup, and I need to speak with you all" after the mage ending-- to warn them that Orsino's raving was insane, and that no one needed to sacrifice the neighbors to fight anyone, unlike Orsino's actions would suggest. [/quote]

Orsino tells them to go to the other Circles of Magi and let them know what happened at the Circle of Kirkwall. The First Enchanter doesn't tell the Circle mages to take vengeance on anyone. I think survival is more important to them than anything else.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

He trusts, and cares for if his reaction at the end of Broken Circle is any judge, Irving very much. [/quote]

Greagoir seemed to care about Irving, to the point that he would spare the entire Circle of Ferelden solely on Irving being alive.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Yes, but going into the decision I was left with Alistair's request. Save the city. Protect the people. Which I did the best way I discerned how. [/quote]

People simply need to make the best choices that they can with the information that they have - we simply disagree about what road to take. From my perspective, Aveline's guards are protecting the civilians, and Hawke can protect innocent enchanters, mages, and apprentices from Meredith's wraith.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

It's not the blood magic, again, it's the fact that it's Merrill using it. Given her personality and behavior, I still maintain that she is insane and in no fit state to judge anything as useful or not. [/quote]

I don't see how Merrill is insane for wanting to help her people. Hawke doesn't even understand elven history, the Eluvian, or the importance that restoring the past holds for the Dalish - who are a people devoted to restoring the forgotten history of their ancestors so they can one day teach their city brethern what they've forgotten.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

You get a chance to ask him about that, and I forget where but it's in the midst of another conversation (maybe it's the romance dialogue-- I'll have to look), he excludes Hawke because he believes Hawke is different and poses no dire threat to others like Merrill and Anders. [/quote]

When he mentioned the mages to my apostate Hawke, he simply said that he knew I had a soft spot for them when I told him to concentrate on his enemies in Starkhaven (in the conversation where he tells Aveline that Hawke needs to be the new Viscount). Maybe it's different in a romance.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

If there are always casualties in war, and that's supposed to clear my conscience, then why blame the Templars for rushing in to slaughter the circle when the first mass murder of that evening -and the event that declared war- was comitted by a mage? Also, I addressed above why I believe it's a bad idea to release the mages on an unsuspecting populace just for the same reasons you mentioned. [/quote]

I wasn't trying to change your mind, simply to address my own point of view. War is a terrible thing, and sometimes innocent people die. If I'm Hawke, and I'm given a choice between killing hundreds of innocent people on the word of a dictator, or doing everything in my power to protect every one of them I possibly could from a crime they are all innocent of committing, then I'm going to protect the people. I don't see any reason to condemn them simply because they are possibly socially maldroit.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The quest happened in mine in the lowtown marketplace. Some guy hawking fake Ashes of Andraste. I will send Genitivi home now though, and my main warden will continue to keep those papers she got from the archive. [/quote]

My Surana Warden sent Genitivi home, never spoke to him again, and I never got the quest.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

So, instead of perhaps waiting a bit and gathering the lyrium, she had to do it right now, and resorted to demons? If the shard was dangerous and corrupting, she could have -again- buried it with a marker and come back for it later. The Dalish are excellent trackers, I doubt she'd have a problem finding it if she had a clan-member assist her. If she felt like her life might be threatened in the interim, she could record all she had learned already in a book for others to study and look at. [/quote]

The templars and the Chantry have access to lyrium, and Merrill is an elven mage - the templars hunt the Dalish clans because of their mages, which is why the clans are nomads. It simply wasn't possible to access the sufficient amount of lyrium needed, so she used blood magic. It clearly worked since Merrill is healthly while the elves in Witch Hunt are corrupted from the remaining shards of the Eluvian.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

I let Avernus do his thing, but asked him to keep it down because of his new neighbors. His research is very important and -as a Warden- there is no way to justify not letting him do it without sounding extremely silly or hypocritical. Jowan I let go until I got the mod that allows you to recruit and conscript him after the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Now he comes with me and joins team Circle Tower with Carroll and Cullen and Surana. He and Cullen pretty much hate eachother, which becomes interesting as the mod goes on. [/quote]

My Surana Warden told him to continue his research - no limits. His research was, as you said, too important. He saw the world a bit more pragmatically than Alistair, although he still helped out where he could (giving the orphaned boy a silver at Lothering, saving the village of Redcliffe, aiding people through the Chantry Board, refusing the blood ritual with Caladrius). He still made pragmatic decisions, though - the Anvil of the Void and electing Bhelen as King.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

No excuse. I could see him crying over Karl (and that was a horrible moment. When I finally got to kill Alrik I wish you could have dragged him out and impaled the body somewhere as a warning.)-- or even looking for sympathy-- but to make it about Aveline's dead husband, that he must know tried to help Hawke escape the Blight despite being a Templar and Hawke an apostate, is evil. [/quote]

Impaling Ser Alrik...

Regarding Wesley, I give more credit to Aveline being pragmatic, since she talked her husband down from trying to battle Hawke with a broken arm (which I thought was foolish since he clearly couldn't fight). And Merrill makes a very interesting point that she bends the rules for Hawke - who commits illegal actions and is an open apostate, but she never turns him in.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Anders speaks to her in Hawke's company. If he has so many copies of his Manifesto that would have been the time to pull one out and address Elthina. Instead he prefers to snark and be a jerk.

I think between the both of us, we just explained why Elthina is so ineffective and can't do anything. Her hands are literally tied no matter what she does. If she helps the mages and Templars, Kirkwall will be marched on. If she suggests that Meredith step down, Meredith complains she's under the influence of all the blood magic that flies around Kirkwall--- and the city is marched on. If she leaves, Kirkwall will be marched on. In fact, Kirkwall being marched on after the mess hits the fan might be the last straw for the Templars following Cullen (and thus viscount Hawke) which may lead others to rebel. Injustice on top of injustice. This would send Viscount Hawke out of Kirkwall to lead his/her rebels against the chantry (and make sure they got enough lyrium not to go mad) and thus make any DLC again come from the same point of view-- wandering with your chosen slave army. [/quote]

That's what bothered me about the Grand Cleric. Elthina never does anything when Hawke addresses her. You might feel that Anders doesn't make a very compelling case to her (and despite talking about leading a revolution, he seems to regard Hawke as the leader the mages need if Hawke is pro-mage and an apostate), but he seems to delegate the responsibility to Hawke. When Hawke goes and speaks to her about people within her administration using her seal to kidnap Qunari, about what Ser Alrik did, about the plight of the mages, Elthina ultimately does nothing. It's within her power to do something, but she expects the Maker to step in - despite the fact that it actually goes against her religion, since the Chantry believes the Maker abandoned humanity and will not return when they converted everyone in Thedas to their religion.

As for the Chantry, the Order of Templars are their military arm. I don't think they have an army without the templars.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

It's a different eluvian. This one may have well been set for the color of madness. Also, I don't trust Merrill's extrapolations given that other crazy people extrapolate about other things to great lengths in DA2, and are still crazy and dangerous no matter how right they think they are. [/quote]

Merrill is building a new one using the lore she gathered and the shard she took from Ferelden. I trust Merrill's research about Marethari's baseless opinion.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Armed and armored soldiers who will die or go crazy if they don't obey. Who stands for them, in your scenario? The Chantry? The Chantry is the one abusing them and keeping them in chains. I'm not going to kill them and feel justified in doing so when they can't refuse to obey orders without suffering excruciating pain and madness or dying. It's not like they derped up there as a group and went "lets kill us some mages, boy howdy" (not that some of the crazy ones might not have felt that way-- after you spare the mages that want nothing to do with Orsino, one Templar does turn on his brothers and you have to kill him. He may have represented Meredith's loyal cronies, the ones who did Derp there to enjoy slaughtering the mages)--- the unease they show if you side with the Templars is pretty telling. They do not want to be there carrying out these crazy orders and are quick to obey Cullen who, if Meredith survived, would have been hung or expelled for defying her if he hadn't killed her. It's not even a question. [/quote]

If it's a choice between armed soldiers and the men, women, and children who will die at their hands, I'm going to protect the people. The templars made their choice the moment they wielded their swords of mercy, and my Hawke made his when he chose to protect the innocent. Could things have been different? I suppose Alrik held the most promise for that, but his compromise was lost with his death.

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

Yes-- Al was still pouting at the time so Anora did grant the boon, but I'm glad to see he and Anora worked things out even if he still wants to kill her daddy. I really do like the Queen. Ooo... I need to do that and check. What I checked was the console command that lets you see your carried plotflags (Vault, I think it is) and the dalish were highlighted.
[/quote]

It seems like King Alistair forgave the Hero of Ferelden. He doesn't seem to hold any resentment for sparing Loghain. Speaking of plotflags, I got Nathaniel to recognize that Anders didn't die at Vigil's Keep (upgraded) and that the Architect died with the laest patch. Has the patch fixed those issues for the PC?

[In Exile]

Ryzaki wrote..
Of course it applies for the Kirkwall Annullment? Did the whole "not a normal annullment" go over your head or something? Anullments are supposed to be called in scenarios like DAO's abominations everywhere, chaos, can't tell whose alive or dead. 

Right they might be bloodmages which is why Meredith gives the whole "are you willing to watch them and take the rap if you're wrong." speech to Cullen. That speech makes ZERO sense if they're gonna be made tranquil. They are no threat if they become tranquil and Cullen isn't watching them when they're taken away. 

They actually aren't related to abominations. In DA:O there were abominations, but the original reason there was a Rite was to justify a templar order killing all their mages because some of them were rebelious.

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...
They actually aren't related to abominations. In DA:O there were abominations, but the original reason there was a Rite was to justify a templar order killing all their mages because some of them were rebelious. 

 

Someone already corrected me on that. 

[Marduksdragon]

@LobselVith8

Me too.

Yes, she does. Although I also argued for clemency for the Mages every time it was feasible and was actively luring those Templars disposed to be kindly into subversion wtih me, despite supporting the Templars and settling runaways back in the Circle. Not sure if that makes a difference.

Orsino has no faith in rebel Hawke. He also says the mages will find sympathy nowhere but with other mages (even if Hawke isn't a mage). (I also hate Hawke's speech about rage and fear. How should the Templars feel after someone detonates a building with their fellows in it in front of them. Even normal human beings would be angry and terrified at that point. They're no more or less angry and afraid than the mages.)  Then there's that jab about 'drowning us as infants' I realize he says it in despair, but seriously. Orsino is no fool-- he helped a man murder Hawke's mother-- gave him books to support his evil magic (and while blood magic is not inherently evil, murdering women to make golems out of is) and knew that it was evil at the time. No matter how he justifies not telling Meredith, in the end he helped and he knew. Even if he wasn't going to turn Quentin in he could have refused to give him aid and told him he was a madman. (If we're being overly dramatic, Orsino, why doesn't the Chantry just strap lyrium bombs to the orphans and poor that become Templars and throw them into the Circle  at the infant mages and watch body parts fly? It would amount to the same thing in the end.) Then he goes on and on about there being "no other way" but through evil means (and he recognizes them as evil) to free the mages. Do you think no one paid attention to this? What he is suggesting is a nightmare scenario for everyone, including the mages that listen to him.

And Aveline has said over and over again that there aren't enough guards to stop crime anyway-- and now they're tasked with fighting angry mages and Templars and trying to keep order as well.

I don't think she's insane for wanting to help her people. I think she's insane because she's acts like she's insane-- I point to that profoundly idiotic thing with the warehouse guards and Hawke trying to BS his/her way past them as an excellent example. "There's no fire." No, Merril, there's no fire. Just you, being an idiot. She hasn't been living on an island by herself, she knows people lie-- even the Dalish lie-- and she was much more savvy in DAO. Let me put it this way, if she were just dangerous like Morrigan, but completely sane-- I'd let her fix her mirror. But she's not. She's crazy and no amount of rivaling helps. She's still crazy, she's just aware that she is and refuses to put the breaks on. I never said she should stop helping the Dalish, not once, but I did argue that she had no business meddling in blood magic because she is not a person equipped to handle it.

I think it is (during the romance). I'm almost certain when Hawke asks " what about me" he goes, "You... you're different. You aren't like them."

Not just maldroit, but malicious after Orsino's pre-granfaloon speech (and bless the mages that refused him). And again, I refuse to see the mages as any less important than the city people. There are more people in the total of Kirkwall than in the Gallows. A few hundred to spare thousands an exhaulted march, and then my inroads secure with the Templars and the people to change things for everyone?  And considering I got the arcane supporter on the same run I helped the Templars, I think it can be done.

That's reassuring.

I'm not denying it worked at all. Blood magic isn't the issue itself. It's congress with a spirit-- which would be dangerous under normal circumstances (good or evil spirits) but is insane for someone with Merrill's problems. Had she learned her spells from a book and a tutor (like Jowan) there would be less fear in my mind, then her contacting Audacity over and over to help her. The demon wants Merrill dependent on it because it wants to wear her like a meat suit. That is the higher demons' ultimate goal. We've heard it over and over again from their own mouths.

Bhelen as king all the way, but given I had more problems fighting with Branka than an entire load of golems, I destroyed the Anvil. If one Dwarven Paragon makes me sweat like that, we need more of those, not golems.

If you flatter Wesley "the wrath of the Templars is terrible indeed" he becomes friendly without Aveline having to step in much. It seems to me that he was as much afraid of Hawke and Bethany popping out of the Blightlands as they were of him.

You make a good point about the Maker. What Elthina sounds like, actually, is Leliana.

Yes, but not all the Templars are in Kirkwall and it may take longer for them to rebel given the conditions to do so are pretty dire.

So coercion has no place. These men and women are automatically guilty even though they're being forced to do these things by outside means under actual real pain of death or madness? Do you think the mages would prefer to die or lose their minds, if the situation were reversed, and they were poised to strike down the Templars under bad commands? Would any of them hesitate or defy their leader, like Cullen? Orsino condoned the murder of innocent women for the sake of research he admits he knew to be evil-- and he leads these mages. Not only that, but only a handful of mages outright refuse to help him after he goes all crazy-is-the-only-way! on everything. Maybe that handful would hesitate if they were on the other side and the Templars were quivering at their feet? I don't know, but I  have a hard time reconciling any of it as being any better than anything else. After Conner in Redcliffe I understand what angry mage children can do (living weapons) so they aren't exactly noncombatants-- but they are children and it's still very sad. If I take command of the Templars, I can take the Templars away from the Chantry-- if I do that, where is their army and mage oppression then? Are they going to fight me with the Inquisition-- the Seekers? I don't even have to fight, other than to get the mages to listen, if I go that route, plus I have a ready made army to hold off the what comes and protect the mages when I get to that point (because hopefully I've had the chance to talk the men into seeing who their real enemy is). Also, the Templars aren't fully allowed to participate in things or chat before they take final vows and the lyrium-- so many of them wouldn't know how bad it was until it was too late to turn back. Keran, as example. Alistair also says this-- he was poised to take his final vows when Duncan grabbed him. Actually kind of like the Wardens that way.

He's still saying the Architect was spared in mine when I killed him, so I'm hoping the next one gets it fixed (whatever is messing it up now). Then again I also had problems with Nate showing up in the Deep Roads. You could hear him, but not see him, and there was nothing to click on--- and had various problems with Merrill and a few other things not exactly working right. Merrill seems fixed as of the last patch, so I hope for the rest.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:55 .

[HTTP 404]

killing anders is the only right thing to do. I want to facepalm everytime he talks to my Hawke, his whining and vindictiveness is overly dramatic and one sided. Even when I pro mage, I feel like I should still kill Anders put him and the writing of Anders out of its misery. the fact that no one complains that he is dead just confirms that killing Anders is by far for the best.

I totally get the change of Anders from Awakening to Da2 with the merging of Justice, doesn't mean I have to still like him changed in Da2.

Also, my next playthrough will be an evil cruel blood Mage Hawke who will spare Anders...that is the only way I could spare him is if I am playing an evil character.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 04 juillet 2011 - 10:09 .

[ZCaitan]

Whats with all the hate for Anders? I agree he was far more likeable in DAA but I didnt kill him in three playthroughs thus far and I still think helping the mages is the right thing to do.
Not that I would have blown up the Chantry, and I tried my share of stopping it ingame, which sadly is not possible. But I also did not drop a single tear for the Grand Cleric and the priests. She was comfortable and warm in the big strong building towering the city and her self-rightous "the Maker will sort it out" sickend me pretty fast. She was the only one to have influence over Meredith and Orsino and instead of supporting compromise and being the voice of reason she does nothing but hide behind Chantry walls and hymns. So in a way the Maker DID sort it out. He punished those who stand by idle while the powerful prey on the oppressed, he also punished Orsino for being a Blood Mage (I killed him ofc) and Meredith for being obsessed with both her intolerant hate against mages and the idol (not her fault I guess). Also I personally I distrust overly zealous people like the Templars as much as I distrust Blood Mages and I killed a lot of both. I was quite happy with the game. ^.^
Edit: I played Roque and Mage btw.

[Rifneno]

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The Templar training, which any Hawke can learn is well, is the most effective way of policing mages as it is specifically an anti-magic class.[/quote]

We haven't seen any alternatives tried. We've seen a handful of mages like Irving that act as informants but we haven't seen any attempt at mages actually serving as a law enforcement against their own. Hmm... actually, I take that back. The Mage's Collective wasn't under the Chantry's boot heel and they said they police themselves. Those side quests weren't very in-depth but there was no evidence of real wrongdoing on the Collective's part. They did some minor crimes (bribery and such) to avoid Chantry wrath but there's never any indication the the Collective was responsible for any actual evil. They even had the Warden hunt down some blood mages who were killing people.

[quote]If the Templars are freed of the Chantry and allowed to purge their own Order of lunatics I don't see why they should be held responsible for being a slave army who were forced to behave in the manner they were by the Chantry (as discussed in other posts here)--- if people shouldn't judge all mages by Anders or the blood mages or insane mages that crop up-- then why them? Why is it different if the shoe is on the other foot?  (I liked the Cujo joke, I laughed. I think because I was imagining Varnell barking on a leash with Petrice pulling on it....)[/quote]

Most templars made a conscious decision to join the order. Perhaps even all; I was under the impression Alistair was forced into it but I can't recall anyone else or even him saying it specifically. Templars are willing soldiers by and large. Even if, like Alistair, someone was "owned" by the Chantry as a child I doubt they'd wind up a templar if they were vocally against the Chantry's methods. If for no other reason than they couldn't trust such a templar not to be helping mages escape behind the scenes. Mages, OTOH, are only there because they were born with a certain gene.

Lastly, I just think there's too many bad templars without good reason (Cullen had a good reason, the only problem is the Chantry being too stupid to recognize post-traumatic stress disorder and think maybe he shouldn't be on active duty). The mages have reasons for their evil: the shredded veil and the psychological damage caused by the templar's abuses. Why are there so many evil templars though?

[quote]It's a different viewpoint. I just don't think I'm standing where you are.[/quote]

As annoying as my line quoting is, the reason is without it replies like this leave one scratching their head wondering which part it's referencing.

[quote]And what of the Templar slaves? Who stands for them? Who stops them from being hung, tortured and abused every time they try to stop the Chantry from doing evil? What happened to the men that defied Meredith-- they were executed. All it takes is one insane Knight-Commander to bring that sort of thing on--- and in the interests of Chantry control, who do you think they usually promote to positions like that?[/quote]

The only ones executed were the ones involved in a big underground conspiracy. And that only happened because Meredith is Rosemary's baby while Elthina is an inspiration to sloth demons everywhere. Not the most common circumstances. At least, I'd hope. Templars who spoke out against her earlier became pariahs but they weren't even taken off active duty, let alone tortured and killed.

[quote]If the Grand Cleric is soft-hearted as the one in Denerim seems to be given Mother Boann's crusade to help the city elves and Bryant's championing of the people of Lothering, you get a kind and reasonable man like Greagoir who considers the first Enchanter his friend and frets over his mages as if they were his children.[/quote]

I still don't buy Gregior as being as awesome as people say. I would if not for one very important scene. Mage origin, if you inform Irving of Jowan's plans. Irving will tell you to go ahead with it and has you working as a spy on Jowan. Everything plays out the same but at the end Gregior dismisses Irving's insistence that you were working on his behalf and kept him apprised of the situation all the time. He still wants the mage Warden tranquil or executed even with the First Enchanter standing right there insisting you were only following orders. To hell with Gregior.

[quote]Genocide is a pretty, hot button word--- but killing the Templars is the mass murder of the poor, abused and orphaned.[/quote]

If by "poor, abused and orphaned" you mean "armed soldiers butchering helpless people including children," then yes.

[quote]Many of them were never given a choice in being what they are-- much like mages-- and they can't leave due to the lyrium or a potential death sentence.[/quote]

There is not one templar in DA2 that says they were forced into being a templar. And there's not one that says they'd leave if not for the lyrium. Even that piece of darkspawn crap Samson, if reinstated, says Meredith is "a ****" but that she's right about the mages during the RoA.

[quote]He's also drugged and brainwashed. It takes that last moment for him to be himself, and totally defy Meredith. Why didn't the mages decide that one innocent is too many earlier? No one has clean hands here. I'm very proud of Cullen on both endings and believe they both made sense in context of his character (as mentioned in another post).[/quote]

There is no evidence whatsoever that he was brainwashed or was "only himself" at that last moment. No one has their hands clean? Remind me what blood was on Bethany's hands. But back to Cullen... there's no hint of any of that in-game. You're just reaching for justification. Chances are the only reason he stands up to Meredith in the pro-mage ending is because as we know everything has to end up the same no matter what Hawke does (see: Orsino). There's also no indication that lyrium is impairing his decision making or any other part of his mind. Withdrawal leads to dementia, as does lifelong abuse at a ripe old age. But there's no indication anywhere that a young templar like Cullen isn't of sound mind because of lyrium.

[quote]I believe Vengeance is a demon because he is clearly evil. Dissent sealed the deal. Prior to that I was hoping to seperate Justice and Anders. After that, even when offered the option, I had little hope it was going to work.[/quote]

Dissent did not show he was evil, it showed Justice is dangerous yes but he didn't (almost) kill Ella because he thought it'd be fun or because it'd benefit him in some way. He did it because he lost the ability to tell friend from foe. That's almost literally the legal definition of insanity. In order to get off a charge by reason of insanity they must prove the defendant did not know right from wrong at the time of the crime. Insane is totally different from evil.

[quote]Karras is doped up on Lyrium. His crazy is evil crazy. And he never wasn't honest about his intentions. He was always a total D-bag. Grace actually sucked up to Thrask, who was willing to fight Meredith and possibly die for her and the other mages, and then killed him without thought for him or the other mages or the Templars (who end up executed except for Samson and Keran if you plead for them) who helped just to get her digs in on Hawke. I hate Karras, but I look at Grace's betrayal as worse.[/quote]

Again, there's no evidence the lyrium is affecting his thought process. As for the rest, when we're talking about mass murders and rapes I don't really think some deception matters.

[quote]Cullen does speak up, Hawke just allows him to finish his thought and then the Templars, hearing him, prefer to obey him than Meredith. We're never even given an opportunity to with the Mages is what I'm saying. If it were important to show the mages as reasonable, they would have been. Instead we get Orsino losing his mind and urging them to acts of depravity.[/quote]

I've been arguing this subject for months and you're the first person I've heard say they should've had a scene with mages taking prisoners. We got Orsino losing his mind a little while after he pleaded with Meredith to call off the RoA and stop the slaughter (after having just threw a templar like Superman, so he wasn't talking about just mages). Where was the templar's reasonability then?

Honestly, I wouldn't take prisoners if I were the mages. Every last templar attempting the RoA deserves to die without exception. An order from a psychopath is not justification for mass murdering down to children. Using that logic, we should excuse the **** soldiers because Hitler might've had them executed if they weren't making lampshades out of people.

[quote]You too, eh? They have a new Witcher 2 board at the nexus with some nice mods.[/quote]

Aye, a good site. I did see something I never thought I'd see there though. Modders always make nudity mods for female characters... they did the opposite over there, making a mod to cloth Triss. The Internet doing something anti-nudity... I think that's mentioned in the bible somewhere. The part with the sun turning black and the oceans boiling.   

[quote]HTTP 404 wrote...

I want to facepalm everytime he talks to my Hawke, his whining and vindictiveness is overly dramatic and one sided.[/quote]

I want to facepalm every time I see someone whine about a character whining because they went through things that would break most people like a twig. Yeah, how dare he complain because his people are brutally oppressed and abused and the tyrants stole his lover's soul just to make a point? That sissy. Happens every day, right? He didn't have to go through anything REALLY horrible, like hearing a video game character complain every now and again. THAT'S real hell right there.

[Marduksdragon]

@Rifneno

The mages collective were allied with the Templars in Redcliffe. Men you could actually turn in to the authorities if you felt the need.

Alistair says the Chantry rarely lets people (particularly Templars) get away from them. This is echoed by Wynne when she tells the story of her friend the priest. If you disagree, as a Templar, you're sent to Aeonar in Fereldan-- which is where they send the Templars who can't be trusted to take care of themselves any longer due to being addled as well (Godwin, I believe has the dialogue for this and he mentions Carroll as being particularly addled). It's quite rare that a family wants to take care of them or is allowed to, as is the case with the Templar locked in Howe's basement.

Because the Templars are abused as well. Meredith starts harming people in act one, long before she gets the sword. If you go back to Thrask and the others just before you hit the deep roads with everything completed, you can hear stirrings of it.

I don't generally quote lines because it makes it annoying for me to read. I prefer things to flow as I erase them going downwards rather than having to cut and paste and scroll.

She does kill them-- and she's killed and expelled others. It's mentioned by the others in dialogue and in ambient dialogue. One of the women tries to justify it, if you watch the progess of the initiates throughout the Chapters. The men in particular go through a rapid change from being confident before induction, to slowly becoming shadows of themselves with only the woman going "we have to believe in Meredith!".  Even more telling, one of the initiates dies and disappears from their group.

Then you didn't play the end of Broken Circle? He cares for Irving. He cares for the mages like his own children. He's angry at the end of the mage origin that Irving broke faith with him, you pick that up in notes later that describes how he and Irving control the tower between them. (Irving is a creepy man.) By not immediately telling Greagoir, to trap Lily and punish her for seducing Jowan, he broke faith. It's not about your Warden at all-- it's about the nature of the power balance between Greagoir and Irving. If Greagoir lets one of the young mages walk after Irving admits to going behind his back-- in front of Greagoir's Templars no less, not all of whom might be totally loyal to him and who don't really fear him-- it's going to create waves in the Tower. Waves he can't afford. If you accept his judgement and force Duncan to recruit you, then you meet a different Greagoir during Broken Circle. He's glad to see you, doesn't blame you for Jowan (quite a turn around if it was really supposed to be about that in the first place, eh?), is proud of what you're doing, etc. And any way you play it he is terrified that Irving and the rest are all corrupted... or worse dead. So terrified he can't even open the doors again to check.  

No, I mean the indications from DAO dialogues with various Templars that most Templars end up that way by being given to the Chantry as children (this is even carried through DA2 with mentions by Sebastian and others of having been given away-- although Sebastian was a nobleman and given to the priesthood and thus had something to walk away to), and then the poor represented by Keran, who join out of faith and desperate need of money. Of course the Templars are armored and armed-- Unarmed mage children can raise the dead and destroy entire cities (Redcliffe)-- it is sad to kill any child, but as I said earlier a mage child is hardly a non-combatant. If anything, the children would be more dangerous than the adults with their powers running wild and their emotions easy prey for demons.

Samson also doesn't believe that mage children need to be penned up-- as we saw earlier in Feynriel and Olivia's case (although he is charging money to feed his lyrium addiction). He doesn't start echoing Meredith at all until after the mages he's trying to help attempt to kill him. Like Cullen, I think you can chalk up his anger to PTSD. He was betrayed and watched Thrask die a horrible death trying to help the mages. He almost died himself and would have had the Champion not spoken out for him at least, or let him rejoin the Order.

Because in that last instant we saw Cullen from DAO step through the glass. The Cullen who hates evil and believes in compromise. And yes he is drugged. All Templars are drugged. And yes he is brainwashed, as all Templars are (Alistair conversation talking about lyrium and control of the Templars, and again more at the gates to the Denerim Chantry, and again with the guy in Howe's basement, and again with Ser Otto... probably more I'm forgetting.). The Chantry uses faith as succor and excuse for the wrongs done to these men-- and it is a form of brainwashing. They don't even know, from Alistair's dialogue, that they don't need lyrium to be Templars at all.

I was speaking of sides. No sides hands are clean between the mages and Templars. (Bethany and Carver in my games tend to end up being Grey Wardens, so let's say the Wardens are clean. Like rubber ducks in a bathtub-- what a change for a Warden.) Uh, did you forget Carroll? He's the same age to slightly younger than Cullen in DAO, he's stull using his lyrium regularly and he is definitely addled. Not only does he see things that aren't there, he's entirely inappropriate with everyone--- and this is all discussed by Godwin and people in the tower. (And you can talk to Carroll yourself and see that he's looney) I'm not reaching for anything. This is already well established. I just happened to pay close attention to the Templars in the last game because I felt horrible for them as each new piece of information was rolled out. I wanted then, to run back into the Circle Tower and ask Greagoir and the others if they knew they didn't have to destroy their minds to be Templars... among other things.

Vengeance thought he was perfectly justified because she called him a demon and criticized him. Anders believed it was evil, and can take back control and flee. (and Vengeance will kill her, if you don't have enough friendship or rivalry with Anders to give him the ability to wrest control from Vengeance-- which is a pretty big indicator that he's dangerous and evil) There are two people in that body-- rival him and it becomes increasingly apparent how much Vengeance is not Anders. What is left of Anders is being eaten by Vengeance and Anders feels it.

So--- leading an entire group of good mages and Templars to their deaths -- people who are risking their lives to make the world a better safer place for them all and for her as well--  for petty revenge isn't worse than always being a drug-addled d-bag that everyone can see coming? We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. And yes, the Chantry Templars are always drugged. Always. If they don't get their Lyrium they usually die or go insane. DAO, Samson dialogue in DA2. Samson and Cullen are two very strong men to be able to survive and not go mad without the stuff. Cullen was even sane enough to recognize what was going on even if he was raving when freed from his prison in DAO-- and we now know by DA2 dialogue that he was at least in there for several weeks without his lyrium.

The Templars can't just run like the mages. They have to have their lyrium and it is expensive and hard to obtain. For them to disobey Meredith without knowing she was going to die takes an immense act of will--- and willingness to accept what comes to them if they go against her orders. Pain, possibly madness and death. Given that-- I'm not surprised they didn't rebel until towards the end. When they were heartsick enough that the consequences to themselves no longer mattered as much as stopping Meredith, they did. Cullen led the "charge" because he's a good man.

You love throwing around Hitler, I've noticed. And these children can raze citiies, summon undead, etc. Connor from Redcliffe, as example. Or set people on fire-- Wynne's childhood. Or kill--- optional dialogue for Surana in mentioning the murder of Surana's mother. It's nice to imagine big eyed children with tears dripping down their faces being stabbed to death by burly men in armor, it makes it nice and neat-- it's harder to call them non-combatants when these children can summon demons, melt the faces off people or make their bowels explode in their bodies. These are children, and it's sad to kill them, but they're hardly defenseless. That's like saying a ten year old with an uzi is defenseless. Not to mention the man in care of these children chose to subject them to this rather than let the paranoid Knight-Commander search the tower. And why is that-- because his hands aren't clean-- he had copies of Quentin's research, research he KNEW was gotten through the murder of innocent women--- research he aided by providing materials-- he knew it was evil and he still kept it and in the end, he used it.  If Meredith had found them, she'd have at least executed Orsino--- if not nullified the Gallows anyway. The choice to kill the mages is a hard one, and based on what I believed would save thousands more lives in Kirkwall and possibly Fereldan by having Kirkwall as a ready ally when the time came, but I don't blame the Templars for following Orders as long as they did given their alternatives are so final. I am extremely proud of them for finally standing up to Meredith at the end.

There's actually a lot of add clothing mods for a lot of games. I de-sexified all the female armor in Oblivion (no more breast shape breast-plates. They have deflection points that will send oncoming blades into your liver or under your chin, making them pretty much instadeath.), for example, and put more clothes on Isabela in DA2, etc. I'm definitely generally in the 'add clothes' camp. In fact, the only person in DA2 that got a 'less clothes' mod is Merrill because I thought her chainmail looked sprayed on and silly. Now she's just in the green dress part with leather bracing and a pair of leather culottes.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 05 juillet 2011 - 05:58 .

[por favor]

DA:II Anders was the most obnoxious, whiny, spineless character I have ever had to endure. I enjoyed killing him in the end.

[fchopin]

The most disappointing was that we did not get a chance to chop of his head, the stab was not good.
If we had the chance to chop his head of it would have been more dramatic, as it was it was very predictable.

[Beerfish]

I didn't read the whole thread but the op brings up one good point regarding bioware games, they often let the companions voice opinions before a big decisions but then have nothing after the fact. (ME! Spoiler*** I just did the Rachni queen quest and each companion had a strong opinion about what should be done beforehand, after the fact neither had a thing to say.)

If they consider a decision big enough to talk to companions before hand they should follow up at least with comments immediately after the decision.

[sonoko]

I really don't understand all that Anders hate.

This man healed Hawke and his companions for many years, risked his life for them, in many playthroughs he saved life of Bethany/Carver in the Deep Roads (not to mention all those lives he saved in his free clinic).
Even if you believe that the crime he committed is that hideous, doesn't Anders deserve some mercy or at least pity for the sake of previous years or in return for the life of Hawke's only living sibling?

I understand those people who hated Anders from the start, sent him away after Ella's death and then stabbed him in the end. But how could one chat with a person and fight together in battles and use his help for years and then kill him in cold blood??

[FieryDove]

sonoko wrote...

I really don't understand all that Anders hate.

This man healed Hawke and his companions for many years, risked his life for them, in many playthroughs he saved life of Bethany/Carver in the Deep Roads (not to mention all those lives he saved in his free clinic).
Even if you believe that the crime he committed is that hideous, doesn't Anders deserve some mercy or at least pity for the sake of previous years or in return for the life of Hawke's only living sibling?

I understand those people who hated Anders from the start, sent him away after Ella's death and then stabbed him in the end. But how could one chat with a person and fight together in battles and use his help for years and then kill him in cold blood??

Perhaps because there was no way Hawke could stop it. Or maybe some Hawke's wanted to push the magic boom button but again were not allowed to. Then there is also many complaints that Anders hits on Hawke male or female early on.

Just a guess on some.

HTTP 404 wrote...

the fact that no one complains that he is dead just confirms that killing Anders is by far for the best.

No one complains if you let Anders live either. Well DLC but that doesn't count. imho

[Marduksdragon]

sonoko wrote...

I really don't understand all that Anders hate.

This man healed Hawke and his companions for many years, risked his life for them, in many playthroughs he saved life of Bethany/Carver in the Deep Roads (not to mention all those lives he saved in his free clinic).
Even if you believe that the crime he committed is that hideous, doesn't Anders deserve some mercy or at least pity for the sake of previous years or in return for the life of Hawke's only living sibling?

I understand those people who hated Anders from the start, sent him away after Ella's death and then stabbed him in the end. But how could one chat with a person and fight together in battles and use his help for years and then kill him in cold blood??

The blood I killed Anders in was very warm. Had Ygraine been able to embrace him as she stabbed him, she would have. I killed him so that he retained his dignity. I killed him because I cared about him and because I wasn't given the option to save him. He died as Anders, a good man, not left to be consumed by Vengeance. I feel it's one of those 'pull the plug' situations. He can only degrade from what Hawke knows at that point-- Because I cared for Anders, I could not let him continue to suffer simply because I didn't want to lose him.

[Addai]

sonoko wrote...
I understand those people who hated Anders from the start, sent him away after Ella's death and then stabbed him in the end. But how could one chat with a person and fight together in battles and use his help for years and then kill him in cold blood??

First of all, you're only assuming Anders had much to do with Hawke during those years.  If you never take him in your party, he gave you a map in exchange for killing some templars for him.

He also will ask for your help under false pretenses to commit a heinous act.  If you go along with this, it's certainly possible to say that Hawke is more than even.

Finally, killing him is not only about revenge.  He's a dangerous abomination who is only getting more dangerous.  Hawke can feel responsible to put an end to his vengeance for the sake of innocent people.

[Rifneno]

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

The mages collective were allied with the Templars in Redcliffe. Men you could actually turn in to the authorities if you felt the need.[/quote]

They were just bribing him to keep the Chantry off their backs.

[quote]Alistair says the Chantry rarely lets people (particularly Templars) get away from them. This is echoed by Wynne when she tells the story of her friend the priest. If you disagree, as a Templar, you're sent to Aeonar in Fereldan-- which is where they send the Templars who can't be trusted to take care of themselves any longer due to being addled as well (Godwin, I believe has the dialogue for this and he mentions Carroll as being particularly addled). It's quite rare that a family wants to take care of them or is allowed to, as is the case with the Templar locked in Howe's basement.[/quote]

- That templar is there because Howe kidnapped him so he couldn't catch Jowan, who was on a mission for Loghain. The fact he went into lyrium withdrawal and started talking to walls was effect, not cause.
- Lots of things are said in DAO. But the fact is, I haven't seen any actual templars complain that they wanted to leave but couldn't. While I'm sure there's some, it's not the significant number you're making it out to be. Certainly not enough to warrant not only letting a genocidal army live but actually assisting them.
- Simply untrue. They go to Val Royeaux, where the Chantry's main HQ is in Orlais. "Val Royeaux is also where aging templars retire to when they can no longer adequately perform their services due to mental deterioration caused by long-term lyrium dependency." - http://dragonage.wik...iki/Val_Royeaux In fact the only mention we have on Aeonar is Gregior sending Lily there, and the codex which only states the prisoners as being "accused maleficarum and apostates."

[quote]She does kill them-- and she's killed and expelled others. It's mentioned by the others in dialogue and in ambient dialogue. One of the women tries to justify it, if you watch the progess of the initiates throughout the Chapters. The men in particular go through a rapid change from being confident before induction, to slowly becoming shadows of themselves with only the woman going "we have to believe in Meredith!".  Even more telling, one of the initiates dies and disappears from their group.[/quote]

You don't have to convince me that Meredith is the devil. I've been drawing horns on her since concept art. The problem is, that doesn't make the case that this sort of thing is widespread. We don't know it's going on anywhere except Kirkwall as it's only going on there because the Knight Commander is pure concentrated evil and the Grand Cleric doesn't understand her job or what the word "neutral" means. And I might point out, you're making the case that the Chantry is abusing the templars... but in this scenario, it's not. Meredith is a templar herself. It's templars abusing templars.

Any sympathy I may have had for the Kirkwall Order disappeared as soon as they followed the Annulment order. That was the perfect opportunity for mutiny if they wished it. Instead even the "wonderful" Cullen followed the order to murder helpless innocents.

[quote]Then you didn't play the end of Broken Circle? He cares for Irving. He cares for the mages like his own children. He's angry at the end of the mage origin that Irving broke faith with him, you pick that up in notes later that describes how he and Irving control the tower between them. (Irving is a creepy man.) By not immediately telling Greagoir, to trap Lily and punish her for seducing Jowan, he broke faith. It's not about your Warden at all-- it's about the nature of the power balance between Greagoir and Irving. If Greagoir lets one of the young mages walk after Irving admits to going behind his back-- in front of Greagoir's Templars no less, not all of whom might be totally loyal to him and who don't really fear him-- it's going to create waves in the Tower. Waves he can't afford. If you accept his judgement and force Duncan to recruit you, then you meet a different Greagoir during Broken Circle. He's glad to see you, doesn't blame you for Jowan (quite a turn around if it was really supposed to be about that in the first place, eh?), is proud of what you're doing, etc. And any way you play it he is terrified that Irving and the rest are all corrupted... or worse dead. So terrified he can't even open the doors again to check.[/quote]

I did play to the end of it. I did not, however, force Duncan to conscript me. I don't see why anyone would. What you describe is... a little disturbing. I have to wonder if there's actually something more going on between those two. Oh GOD, don't picture it, DON'T PICTURE IT! NOOOOOOOO!

....

That still doesn't change the fact that Gregior was willing to execute the mage origin PC for no wrongdoing on his/her part. You don't get to murder someone over a spat with someone else and be called a good man. If that's how he cares for his children, I sure as hell hope he doesn't have any. Or rather, had. Because I'm sure he'd have hung them the first time he got upset at something.

[quote]Unarmed mage children can raise the dead and destroy entire cities (Redcliffe)-- it is sad to kill any child, but as I said earlier a mage child is hardly a non-combatant. If anything, the children would be more dangerous than the adults with their powers running wild and their emotions easy prey for demons.[/quote]

So mages get the pragmatic "but you're dangerous, it's okay to kill you" approach while templars get the "you might have been an orphan so I won't kill you to stop you from murdering a bunch of people" approach.  Nice.

[quote]He doesn't start echoing Meredith at all until after the mages he's trying to help attempt to kill him. Like Cullen, I think you can chalk up his anger to PTSD. He was betrayed and watched Thrask die a horrible death trying to help the mages. He almost died himself and would have had the Champion not spoken out for him at least, or let him rejoin the Order.[/quote]

No. Samson was never attacked by the mages. He walked out on his own in a hissy fit because they were using blood magic (how dare they use blood magic against knights that are only vulnerable to blood magic!). He never saw Thrask die and his life was never threatened.

[quote]Because in that last instant we saw Cullen from DAO step through the glass. The Cullen who hates evil and believes in compromise. And yes he is drugged. All Templars are drugged. And yes he is brainwashed, as all Templars are (Alistair conversation talking about lyrium and control of the Templars, and again more at the gates to the Denerim Chantry, and again with the guy in Howe's basement, and again with Ser Otto... probably more I'm forgetting.).[/quote]

Lyrium is not LSD. We know its affects when one goes into withdrawal or after a lifetime of systematic abuse. We do not know its affects in the usage of active templars. We have no evidence to assume that it hinders their thought process in any way. Even if we did have evidence that lyrium is used as a "high" by some, it's likely that such only occurs at high doses and the templars are at low ones. I'm on several highly addictive prescriptions right now and the only thing they do to my thought process is remind me to take more when they're out of my system.

Even if you were right about the lyrium effects, it only means the templars can't be saved. We know they're screwed if they go off lyrium and you're saying they're screwed if they're on it.

[quote]The Chantry uses faith as succor and excuse for the wrongs done to these men-- and it is a form of brainwashing. They don't even know, from Alistair's dialogue, that they don't need lyrium to be Templars at all.[/quote]

That's not brainwashing any more than a well made political commercial is. It prays upon some of the natural fears people have, but the person still makes a conscious decision of their own free will.

[quote]Vengeance thought he was perfectly justified because she called him a demon and criticized him.[/quote]

What do you think he meant, "Are you one of them that you would call me such?" Obviously he thought she was allied with the templars. He didn't say "I'll teach you to insult me!" he said "Are you one of them?" Like I said, he killed her because he couldn't separate friend from foe.

[quote]So--- leading an entire group of good mages and Templars to their deaths -- people who are risking their lives to make the world a better safer place for them all and for her as well--  for petty revenge isn't worse than always being a drug-addled d-bag that everyone can see coming? We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.[/quote]

I guess we are, because I don't really care how a monster is catching their victims, just that they are.

[quote]The Templars can't just run like the mages. They have to have their lyrium and it is expensive and hard to obtain. For them to disobey Meredith without knowing she was going to die takes an immense act of will--- and willingness to accept what comes to them if they go against her orders. Pain, possibly madness and death. Given that-- I'm not surprised they didn't rebel until towards the end. When they were heartsick enough that the consequences to themselves no longer mattered as much as stopping Meredith, they did. Cullen led the "charge" because he's a good man.[/quote]

Everyone says Cullen has a good heart. I aim to take it out and see for sure. The templars did NOT turn on Meredith, she turned on them. Big difference.

[quote]You love throwing around Hitler, I've noticed. And these children can raze citiies, summon undead, etc. Connor from Redcliffe, as example. Or set people on fire-- Wynne's childhood. Or kill--- optional dialogue for Surana in mentioning the murder of Surana's mother. It's nice to imagine big eyed children with tears dripping down their faces being stabbed to death by burly men in armor, it makes it nice and neat-- it's harder to call them non-combatants when these children can summon demons, melt the faces off people or make their bowels explode in their bodies.[/quote]

That would be a lot easier to swallow if you didn't give the templars carte blanche to kill anyone who looks at them funny because they might be orphans.

[quote]Not to mention the man in care of these children chose to subject them to this rather than let the paranoid Knight-Commander search the tower. And why is that-- because his hands aren't clean--[/quote]

Meh, don't feel like typing it all again. http://social.biowar...93571/2#7803523

[quote]I am extremely proud of them for finally standing up to Meredith at the end.[/quote]

Never happened.

[Marduksdragon]

@Rifneno

What is your definition of alliance, if not mutual help? Harrith accepted the bribe and it was in lyrium, not gold, likely meaning it is for things that might make the chantry cut off Templars for. They can now lose reports or decide to ignore the nice woman in the hedges that some backwater people are accusing of being a mage because the Chantry can no longer exert force on them by cutting off their drugs. And you can only turn him in to the Templars in Denerim, the option is not available with the others in Redcliffe. Since he's their Knight-Captain, the Redcliffe Templars are allied with the mages-- not just one Templar shuffling paperwork to hide them, but Harrith and all his men.

That the wiki says valroyeaux and it's mentioned that they go to Aeonar at least once in game does not surprise me at all. Many of the codex entries argue with each other and argue with events in games. The ones about Haven are probably the most obvious ones. On Haven I chose to believe the Guardian because I actually spoke with him. In this case, I prefer to believe the NPCs. No one wants to leave? How many Templars did you actually talk to in DAO? The sick Templar and his fellow brother at the doors of the Chantry in Denerim reference his lyrium addiction as the reason he wouldn't leave and the reason he continues taking it is so they won't put him away. The sick Templar is less coherent than Carroll.

A Templar that Elthina could remove, if she did her job. Either she won't, or she can't, but whatever it is-- she is culpable. As I said, I'm sure she would be fine if she was someone's mother making cookies and having her bouts of indecision but she sucks as a leader and everyone suffers. Meredith was set over these men by the Chantry-- promotions are not going to be granted to moderate people unless the Cleric appoints moderates. In Ferelden, they have what seems to be a fairly capable lady as Grand Cleric. Her people take it on themselves to try and make changes for the good and Greagoir rules the Templars with a stern but understanding hand. In Kirkwall it's a nightmare because Elthina is Elthina, I suppose.

Because the alternative is to go mad, or die if they don't get their lyrium, it being witheld because they refused to follow orders? Because Meredith WILL hang at least their leaders if they refuse? Yes. I understand it why it would take something that made them sick to the very depths of their souls to rebel. Duress and long-term conditioning are horrible things. Remember how Fenris reacted to his master's orders to kill the people who'd helped him? And afterwards that's what it took to make him want freedom?

I championed Jowan and then accepted my Surana's fate because I realized the confrontation wasn't about the Warden at all and a selfish act would make it harder on everyone left in the tower.--- Greagoir, as much as he cares for his men and the mages, can't trust everyone because the way the Chantry system works. If he were to let Irving get the upper hand in public and someone report that with sufficient embellishment, they could replace him as Knight-Commander (and unlike Elthina, the Grand Cleric in Denerim appears to be doing her job). Worse yet, they could punish Irving (whom Greagoir obviously cares for). And then where would his men and the mages be? If Irving had any sense at all he would have taken Greagoir aside and spoken to him in his office, where they argue like friends without fear of being chastized. But Irving wanted no way for Lily to be pardoned. If he had to lose Jowan because of his blood-magic, he wanted to stick it to Greagoir and make him lose Lily-- he will even admit to this if you question him while turning Jowan in. In his own way Irving set the Warden up. I disagree. I think Greagoir would make a very good father, if a stern one, though I doubt he's ever had children as he frowns on his Templars having relationships.

I never said it was okay to kill them. I feel bad for doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that the mage children aren't noncombatants as proven by Connor (and others). I just want people to realize that the Templars are slaves. They aren't ****s. They aren't monsters. They are abused, manipulated, slaves set to watch and contain other slaves. One side is populated by the abandoned and the poor, they are given swords and told to watch the people who are there by chance genetic accident, and drugged into compliance with the whims of their Orlesian overlords. It is a terrible thing that they came to killing each other when Thrask had been so close to uniting them.

He's running when you first encounter him, true, but he comes with you if asked---  when the confrontation happened in my game he came up right after the fight was over because Cullen starts talking right after the fight and asks you what to do about him and the others. Samson saw Thrask die.

Yes we do. It 'enhances' their ability to see into the Fade which is one way they hunt magic users. This is adressed with Carroll and with Ser Otto (who is blind, but can still move around because he can "see" things with his Templar abilities). With lyrium exposure they gradually lose their grip on what is real and what isn't-- so yes, they are in a sense hallucinating. Save them? I want to free them so they can save themselves if possible, or at least train people to use their abilities without being slaves. They can't even make an informed decision as it stands because they're forced into submission. Thing is, we know from Alistair that anyone can be trained to see into the Fade because he has all the Templar skills-- you don't even have to be a mage. This is why Alistair is convinced the lyrium is nothing but a leash.

So reward conditioning (with the lyrium) and all the other things the Chantry justifies by preying on the faith of these men is as innocent as an  infomercial? I must disagree. That's like saying playing on the fear of mages they've sown among the common folk is innocent. In both cases it's evil. The Orlesian Chantry is evil.

She QUESTIONED him. She didn't even attack him. And she was just being attacked by Alrik and his creeps  enmasse who were after her to tranquil and rape her--- kind of funny for an ally. No. Again, I must disagree. Vengeance proves again and again with rivaled Hawke that he tolerates no questions to his plans, and Anders, realizing it, becomes more and more frightened (and Vengeance threatens Hawke and accuses Hawke of sloth. I wish the comeback to accuse Vengeance of pride were available.).

Cullen asks for Mercy for the pleading mages. Cullen challenges Meredith's desire to kill Hawke. In neither case was a Templar threatened unless they disobeyed-- and yet both times, what do we see? The Templars follow Cullen into disobeying. No. They turned on her (which she chalks up to blood magic)-- and, if you side with them, give a gesture of fealty afterwards to Hawke.

I didn't give them carte blanche to do anything. I want to remind people that they are also tortured slaves and living beings, not just some faceless enemy army you can handwave into villainry. That the sad eyed little children they killed were just as dangerous as if they'd been armed with automatic weapons and a lot of hate. I chose to support them because I didn't think the mages were less important than the citizens and didn't feel a need to draw lines by genetics. The mages are just as important as the mundanes--- the elves, humans and dwarves are all important--- the ability to fight back against Orlais, the Qunari and possibly Flemeth is important because a lot more people are going to die If Hawke is running around the countryside screaming "let my people go" instead of standing fast and saying "All these people are my people and I'll do what's necessary to see them all free!" Because they were of equal importance it came down to numbers--- if I let Meredith kill the mages, that's a couple hundred people versus thousands that will die if the Divine sets an Exhaulted March on Kirkwall. Not only that, but the king of Fereldan just mentioned having problems with Orlais already and asked Hawke to protect the city. And Flemeth borderline threatened Hawke. I had always intended to kill Meredith if the game allowed me to-- and finally it did. If I manage, through Cullen and the Templars that have already sworn fealty to me in gesture, to wrest the rest of the Templars out of the Chantry's hands (and we know at game start that the Templars have rebelled)-- how the heck are they going to hunt mages (which has fallen to the Seekers by game start, so Varric says) or march on Ferelden? They couldn't even exhaultedly march on the Divine's back yard. The trick is it get them free (and I'm lucky there are huge lyrium deposits under Kirkwall). Cullen's Templars listen to Hawke and my Hawke, throughout the game despite supporting them managed to get the arcane supporter achievement because I was also influencing them towards moderation and leniency with the mages. Heck, Cassandra even still says Hawke is a subversive apostate in the interlude.

He was totally aware of what Quentin was doing and gave him aid (read the note). This is totally different than Orsino just ignoring him and hoping Meredith didn't notice. Karl was tranquiled by Alrik (as part of his 'solution'), who by that time is dead. Samson was thrown out and left to die, true, but he's a Templar and the mages hardly care what happens to them by and large outside of Thrask's movement.  If he consented to the search and she found the papers, Orsino was the one in primary danger, and Meredith doesn't really believe in tranquiling. In chapter 1 when it's left up to her, according to Thrask after the Starkhaven mages are returned, she just kills a few to make a point (like most evil cackling villains) to the ones left.

I watched it happen, several times, through every runthrough.

edit:

With the Templar in the basement, I was referring to his sister wanting to take care of him and not knowing if she'd be allowed to--- AND his assurance that he wanted to die there (thus giving you his ring) rather than be collected by the Chantry despite being raving bonkers. What would drive a man to want to die rather than get his hit of lyrium or return to the 'loving' arms of the chantry? Maybe because hallucinating and dying in that cell was preferrable?

Did you not notice that Lily isn't a malificar or an apostate? She's Chantry clergy.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 07 juillet 2011 - 02:30 .

[FieryDove]

Rifneno wrote...

Vengeance thought he was perfectly justified because she called him a demon and criticized him.

What do you think he meant, "Are you one of them that you would call me such?" Obviously he thought she was allied with the templars. He didn't say "I'll teach you to insult me!" he said "Are you one of them?" Like I said, he killed her because he couldn't separate friend from foe.

If that is true why didn't he kill Hawke and the other companions everytime Anders lit up like a christmas tree?

I've always wondered about that, from the short story that was written before the game came out as character intro's, why didn't Justice kill everything in the room as well? It couldn't have been Anders holding Justice back because Anders is gone when this is going on, he loses all control when its time to glow.

[Midz]

simple answer happy now please let me kill Sebastian

[Dragonella1]

Mages are obviously enslaved by the Chantry, as Mardukgraon argues Templars are also slaves of the same Chantry so in fact Anders attacked the right enemy. The only complain that comes to mind is that he should blow out the Grand Cathedral with the Divine inside instead of Kirkwall Chantry.

[maxernst]

Dragonella1 wrote...

Mages are obviously enslaved by the Chantry, as Mardukgraon argues Templars are also slaves of the same Chantry so in fact Anders attacked the right enemy. The only complain that comes to mind is that he should blow out the Grand Cathedral with the Divine inside instead of Kirkwall Chantry.

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and forced to work.

Templars are arguably slaves, since lyrium addiction is used to force them to labor.  It's not classical chattel slavery, but it's forced labor.

Mages are prisoners of the Chantry, not slaves.  So far as I can tell, they're not required to work for the Chantry.  Nor are they bought and sold as property. 

[Marduksdragon]

maxernst wrote...

Dragonella1 wrote...

Mages are obviously enslaved by the Chantry, as Mardukgraon argues Templars are also slaves of the same Chantry so in fact Anders attacked the right enemy. The only complain that comes to mind is that he should blow out the Grand Cathedral with the Divine inside instead of Kirkwall Chantry.

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and forced to work.

Templars are arguably slaves, since lyrium addiction is used to force them to labor.  It's not classical chattel slavery, but it's forced labor.

Mages are prisoners of the Chantry, not slaves.  So far as I can tell, they're not required to work for the Chantry.  Nor are they bought and sold as property. 

The mages actually are slaves as well. They produce goods and services on the Chantry's whim. They even had a store (Wonders of Thedas) in DAO.