21 réponses à ce sujet

[minormiracle]

Just having some fun with hypotheticals. Assuming Wilson's hacked mechs were able to irrevocably kill Shepard on Lazarus Station but that Miranda still shot Wilson and she and Jacob still escaped safely, how do you think the major plot points of ME2 would have turned out differently?

[Sebby]

It's likely Jacob would have ended up fulfilling the same role as Shepard did. It would have largely played out the same with some minor differences like Tali not joining the squad and Jacob and Co not going to the Council.

[xI extremist Ix]

Jacob isn't a leader. And Miranda isn't a leader. So, the human race would have ate it most likely.

[Missouri Tigers]

xI extremist Ix wrote...

Jacob isn't a leader. And Miranda isn't a leader. So, the human race would have ate it most likely.

But if they were smart enough to pick up Zaeed he could do it all on his own.

[xI extremist Ix]

Missouri Tigers wrote...

xI extremist Ix wrote...

Jacob isn't a leader. And Miranda isn't a leader. So, the human race would have ate it most likely.

But if they were smart enough to pick up Zaeed he could do it all on his own.

Nobody would come out of it alive though.

[Bogsnot1]

It would have been a very short game.

[xI extremist Ix]

Or just two more years or less for project lazarus II.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I'm more interested in what Wilson did to get him killed beyond working for the SB. He was complaining about money did he want to take the data of the Lproject and make a killing off of the discovery and that's why TIM had him killed or was it to cover up the fact he was ordered by TIM to put in the control chip and possibly the reaper tech w/o Miranda knowing so she would stay happy Cerberus princess?

[Lord Issa]

I'm pretty sure that without Shepard, everyone would have been screwed. The prejudice against Cerberus would have ensured that they would not have beed able to put together a team good enough to take the Collector Base and defeat the Human Terminator/Reaper.

[Robhuzz]

TIM would've had Miranda executed for failing to keep Shepard alive and wasting 4 billion credits in the process. Jacob would've gone to freedom's progress with a few cerberus troopers, half of them would've been killed by tali/prazza's squad, all Quarians (Yes Tali as well, sorry Tali fans) would've died as well. A few more would've been killed by the heavy mech. After somehow obtaining the information from Veetor, Jacob would've been killed trying to recruit Archangel.

~~Critical Mission Failure~~

[Notho]

Mass Effect 2 would be the shortest game in history. Also, the most disappointing...

[E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox]

The Reapers would have "arrived" already. End Game.

[Hepzi3]

Garrus would have taken up the reigns. Even without Shepard, the squad is still incredibly talented. Miranda isnt a leader? She was more than capable of leading the fireteam during SM.

[omgodzilla]

Shepard is overrated anyways. Screw him.

[raynbow]

everybody would have died...cerberus fail
oh snap

[xI extremist Ix]

Hepzi3 wrote...

Garrus would have taken up the reigns. Even without Shepard, the squad is still incredibly talented. Miranda isnt a leader? She was more than capable of leading the fireteam during SM.

With the team that Shepard recruited. And with the team whose loyalties lie with Shepard. Sure, TIM did the scouting.

Miranda wouldn't have gotten all of the squadmates and even fewer loyalties.

Critical Mission Failure.

[Osiris273]

Game over, man, game over!

[Raven4030]

Only reason Freedom's Progress doesn't end with Cerberus killing off the Quarian rescue party is because Shephard was there and Tali trusts Shephard. The only way it could end up differently is if the Quarians get to Veetor first and take him away before Miranda/Jacob ever learn of his presence, in which case they just continue bouncing from colony to colony looking for clues.

Assuming that they did get the Freedom's Progress data though, Mordin and Zaeed would join the team like normal.

Garrus might give Cerberus a shot, however it is contingent on two things:
1) Garrus doesn't pop Miranda's squad on their way to recruit him thinking they're just another couple of freelance mercs looking to claim the bounty on his head.

2) Whatever doctor replaces Chakwas is good enough to keep Garrus from dying as a result of half his face getting blown off. More than likely he dies of his injuries.

Even then, it is iffy, Garrus might be willing to just deal with Cerberus for the sake of the greater good but he'd never fully trust them. So if he does join the team, he would not have loyalty shield even if Miranda diverted to help him with his personal revenge mission (doubtful).

While the Warden of the Purgatory wouldn't turn on Miranda and Jacob, there is no way they'd be able to control Jack. Miranda is too much of a Cerberus stooge for Jack to willingly follow and the only possible outcome is one killing the other. Jacob maybe, but I honestly don't think he'd be willing to step up to replace Miranda for the sake of unit cohesion.

No reason to expect Grunt's recruitment mission to go differently. However, it's hard to believe Miranda would take the chance of opening the tank, so he'd just be a big ol' paperweight that would eventually be handed over to Cerberus science teams for study.

Thane, Samara, and Kasumi would all be recruited as normal.

Horizon would have been abducted, only reason Shephard manages to save anybody is because he was alive and the Collectors were trying to get to him, so TIM had some bait in the form of the VS to dangle, allowing him to predict the attack. Otherwise, the collector ship mission wouldn't have happened and the Horizon mission wouldn't have happened, would have gone straight to collecting the Reaper IFF.

The IFF mission might succeed, but Legion would either be sent to Cerberus or jettisoned out the airlock instead of joining the team.

As far as loyalty goes: Miranda would probably divert for her sister, and for Jacob's thing. Mordin's would be completed as a genophage cure represents a major security risk worthy of taking time out for. Zaeed and Kasumi's mission because, well, I wouldn't trust a hired gun to do their job unless I fulfill the deal they had made. Thane and Samara's missions however just aren't important enough to divert for.

So, we come to the suicide mission, and the team basically consists of Miranda, Jacob, Mordin, Zaeed, Thane (disloyal), Samara (disloyal), and Kasumi. Maybe Garrus (disloyal). Let's run down the suicide mission assuming Garrus is there though and everything plays out the same as it would in game:

Armor and Main Gun upgrades would be available but not the shield upgrade, so Kasumi dies. In the collector base Miranda goes down the main path, no matter who she picks to be tech expert (let's say Jacob since he volunteers), that person will die either due to a lack of a loyal fireteam leader or simple lack of tech expert. Nobody goes back with the crew because, hell, they just don't have the manpower to spare. Crew dies. For the long walk Samara is disloyal and so cannot maintain the bubble, this means one of Miranda's team dies. Lack of loyal fireteam leader means fireteam leader dies.

So, we started out with 8 people, we've lost four people. So that means four left including Miranda and one person cannot hold the line alone and survive. So... yah, you know how this probably ends: hold the line team dies, after taking down the human reaper Miranda's team probably dies (unless it contains two loyal squad members, which is possible depending on who all died so far). So, mission accomplished but everybody dies.

Of course, this is assuming that Miranda is capable enough of a leader to accomplish all the same things Shephard managed to accomplish in the Collector base with a smaller team.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Depends on how the Illusive Man and the Shadow Broker would play their cards. The former would probably still end up with an army of geth at his control, whereas the latter might get the opportunity to royally screw over the Collectors.

Then take into account the Klendagon Weapon and the Broker's foreshadowing research into the Protheans and... I think we would've been fine anyway. All Shepard's really doing is holding the line.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll start by pointing out I believe Jacob would have been made the nominal leader of the mission. While Miranda would be XO/primary 'nudge' factor, Jacob's distintly non-typtical Cerberus attitude, and his general balanced personality, would make him better working with others.

Raven4030 wrote...

Only reason Freedom's Progress doesn't end with Cerberus killing off the Quarian rescue party is because Shephard was there and Tali trusts Shephard. The only way it could end up differently is if the Quarians get to Veetor first and take him away before Miranda/Jacob ever learn of his presence, in which case they just continue bouncing from colony to colony looking for clues.

Assuming that they did get the Freedom's Progress data though, Mordin and Zaeed would join the team like normal.

Agreed, by and large. I'd also argue that the mechs would still have held the Quarians long enough.

You could also posit that Tali would, to save her people/get Veetor first and not simply be shot, feign cooperation. No initial shootout, but then Quarians rush to Veetor and try and slow Cerberus with more mechs... but get overwhelmed themselves.

Garrus might give Cerberus a shot, however it is contingent on two things:
1) Garrus doesn't pop Miranda's squad on their way to recruit him thinking they're just another couple of freelance mercs looking to claim the bounty on his head.

2) Whatever doctor replaces Chakwas is good enough to keep Garrus from dying as a result of half his face getting blown off. More than likely he dies of his injuries.

Even then, it is iffy, Garrus might be willing to just deal with Cerberus for the sake of the greater good but he'd never fully trust them. So if he does join the team, he would not have loyalty shield even if Miranda diverted to help him with his personal revenge mission (doubtful).

Disagreed with the likelyhood, if not the principal concern.

For (1), the obvious betrayal/shooting in the back would be literary basis enough for Garrus to at least hear them out, or save them for last long enough for them to talk.

For (2), Chakwas was following Joker, and Joker didn't even know about the new Normandy (or necessarily Shepard's successful revival) before joining Cerberus. Even without her, though, it shouldn't be unreasonable for Cerberus to have an equally capable doctor on board.


For loyalty, I'd disagree. 'Loyalty' was never about liking, it was a handle for 'not distracted'. Garrus's lack of focus was primarily on Sidonis, while he was pretty much chill about Cerberus even without Shepard's suggestions. With team-builder Jacob as the central aspect of the mission, he may not trust Cerberus but he can still be focused on the mission (and on avenging Shepard's death at the hands of the Collectors).

While the Warden of the Purgatory wouldn't turn on Miranda and Jacob, there is no way they'd be able to control Jack. Miranda is too much of a Cerberus stooge for Jack to willingly follow and the only possible outcome is one killing the other. Jacob maybe, but I honestly don't think he'd be willing to step up to replace Miranda for the sake of unit cohesion.

I don't think Miranda would ever have been put in charge because of unit cohesion. Jacob's stabilizing effect was (according to Shadow Broker) the biggest team asset of him. Why would Miranda become default leader to a team of aliens and people she would not be able to stabilize?

Jack's willingness to work with Cerberus was a quid-pro-quo. No mutual death required.

No reason to expect Grunt's recruitment mission to go differently. However, it's hard to believe Miranda would take the chance of opening the tank, so he'd just be a big ol' paperweight that would eventually be handed over to Cerberus science teams for study.

Possible. Depends who's in command.

Horizon would have been abducted, only reason Shephard manages to save anybody is because he was alive and the Collectors were trying to get to him, so TIM had some bait in the form of the VS to dangle, allowing him to predict the attack. Otherwise, the collector ship mission wouldn't have happened and the Horizon mission wouldn't have happened, would have gone straight to collecting the Reaper IFF.

Disagreement. Horizon wasn't targetted by the Collectors because they thought Shepard would show up, but the Virmire Surivor alone. They'd still want the Virmire survivor, so they'd still have the basis to attack and be intercepted: Shepard's presence was a surprise, not their own intent.

I'd say that more of the colony ends up getting abducted (say, 3/4 instead of 1/2) to reflect a general 'not as good without Shepard.'

The IFF mission might succeed, but Legion would either be sent to Cerberus or jettisoned out the airlock instead of joining the team.

Agreed. Lean more to the consensus about send to Cerberus, for timeline similarities.

As far as loyalty goes: Miranda would probably divert for her sister, and for Jacob's thing. Mordin's would be completed as a genophage cure represents a major security risk worthy of taking time out for. Zaeed and Kasumi's mission because, well, I wouldn't trust a hired gun to do their job unless I fulfill the deal they had made. Thane and Samara's missions however just aren't important enough to divert for.

So, we come to the suicide mission, and the team basically consists of Miranda, Jacob, Mordin, Zaeed, Thane (disloyal), Samara (disloyal), and Kasumi. Maybe Garrus (disloyal). Let's run down the suicide mission assuming Garrus is there though and everything plays out the same as it would in game:

Why would even Miranda deliberatly avoid doing loyalty missions for the other team, when everyone knows that everyone won't be focused if their concerns aren't addressed?

Armor and Main Gun upgrades would be available but not the shield upgrade, so Kasumi dies. In the collector base Miranda goes down the main path, no matter who she picks to be tech expert (let's say Jacob since he volunteers), that person will die either due to a lack of a loyal fireteam leader or simple lack of tech expert. Nobody goes back with the crew because, hell, they just don't have the manpower to spare. Crew dies. For the long walk Samara is disloyal and so cannot maintain the bubble, this means one of Miranda's team dies. Lack of loyal fireteam leader means fireteam leader dies.

Ship upgrades are also obtainable before the Loyalty Mission prompt, so no necessary lacking there. Miranda is the first voice to object to Jacob going down the tech path, so her avoiding her own advice is a little strange.

Already quibbled about loyalty parameters.

So, we started out with 8 people, we've lost four people. So that means four left including Miranda and one person cannot hold the line alone and survive. So... yah, you know how this probably ends: hold the line team dies, after taking down the human reaper Miranda's team probably dies (unless it contains two loyal squad members, which is possible depending on who all died so far). So, mission accomplished but everybody dies.

The 'you must have two surviving squad members' really is a game mechanic: one person to pull her up would be enough.

(Or, alternatively, you could argue that Joker, not willing to risk for a not-Shepard, just abandons whoever fought the Human reaper.)

Of course, this is assuming that Miranda is capable enough of a leader to accomplish all the same things Shephard managed to accomplish in the Collector base with a smaller team.

Not necessarily that much smaller.

Of course, I'd dispute Miranda being the leader in the first place.

[Smeelia]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll start by pointing out I believe Jacob would have been made the nominal leader of the mission. While Miranda would be XO/primary 'nudge' factor, Jacob's distintly non-typtical Cerberus attitude, and his general balanced personality, would make him better working with others.

I'd think they could find someone else for the job really, it's at least implied that Jacob only goes along because he's someone Shepard knows and could learn to trust (or at least that he provides an Alliance-like outlook on things, most of the crew seem to have been selected because they support humanity rather than Cerberus specifically).

Still, of the people in the game there are only really two Cerberus operatives likely to take charge of the mission and I agree that Jacob would probably be a better choice (especially given the other personnel already selected).  Miranda would struggle to convince anyone that working with Cerberus is a good idea but Jacob might manage since he's more down-to-earth and open-minded.  I do wonder if he'd struggle with the responsibility of actually being a leader but he'd most likely improve if he does his own loyalty mission (he may not want to but Miranda could probably convince him).

Modifié par Smeelia, 01 juillet 2011 - 02:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Smeelia wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll start by pointing out I believe Jacob would have been made the nominal leader of the mission. While Miranda would be XO/primary 'nudge' factor, Jacob's distintly non-typtical Cerberus attitude, and his general balanced personality, would make him better working with others.

I'd think they could find someone else for the job really, it's at least implied that Jacob only goes along because he's someone Shepard knows and could learn to trust (or at least that he provides an Alliance-like outlook on things, most of the crew seem to have been selected because they support humanity rather than Cerberus specifically).

Still, of the people in the game there are only really two Cerberus operatives likely to take charge of the mission and I agree that Jacob would probably be a better choice (especially given the other personnel already selected).  Miranda would struggle to convince anyone that working with Cerberus is a good idea but Jacob might manage since he's more down-to-earth and open-minded.  I do wonder if he'd struggle with the responsibility of actually being a leader but he'd most likely improve if he does his own loyalty mission (he may not want to but Miranda could probably convince him).

Funnily enough, just a day before this thread I had the following PM conversation.


Dean said...

I have. In my mind, Jacob becomes the 'second-best replacement': someone TIM views as capable in his own right, but also with the idealism, and the leadership, to recruit and lead others regardless of race. Not as ideal as Commander Shepard, but then Shepard isn't an option. Miranda is his nominal second in command, but for a good while they are effective co-leaders.

Jacob then becomes a more-or-less Paragade Shepard who, as a distinction, never takes a persuasion option. He has neither the mindset or the reputation to force down vendor prices, to put the exceptional fear of Shepard, etc. By and large, he doesn't do interrupts either. While Jacob tends towards Paragon (and is balanced by Miranda's tend towards Renegade), as the story goes Jacob is 'hardened' as he really steps into the role of leader, and is more willing to make harder choices.

Jacob more or less recruits the team for the same reasons Shepard was able to: because nearly everyone's reasons for joining were irrelevant of Shepard. Garrus, Tali, and Legion are the only real exceptions: Garrus maintains his disguise as 'ArchAngel' and is willing to work with Cerberus for revenge (both against Sidonis and against the Collectors who brough about the attack). Tali is willing to join in both a naked, not even disguised attempt at investigating Cerberus, and to hit back at the Collectors who are tied to the Geth and who killed Shepard. Legion is never even woken up, but is sent to Cerberus for study (as by this time Jacob has 'hardened').


Generally the same in game and intent, but with a few key differences. Miranda, for example, dies midway through the game: in order to buy enough time for Jacob and the team to escape, she 'holds the line' and dies, right after she and Jacob reconciled and appeared to possibly re-enter their old relationship.

As a 'combat replacement' for Shepard, and to give Jacob's team an initial third person, Kai Leng also is sent to the team. He a more expected Cerberus figure: nationalist, racist, unsympathetic, but capable. He doesn't die, but is kicked off the ship by Jacob in a coming-of-age moment in which Jacob both gets over Miranda's death and finally truly steps into the shoes as 'Commander.' As Kai leaves, we get a private glimpse into a communication between him and the Illusive Man in which Kai Leng's antagonism was scripted in order to provoke Jacob, to spur Jacob's development as a leader and to earn Jacob the respect of everyone else on the crew who more or less hated Kai Leng (again, by design).



So Jacob leads through ME2, mission-for-mission for the most part. It isn't a perfect playthrough: no persuades, no unnecessary interrupts mean a lot of worse outcomes. But, through hook and contrivance, Jacob proves himself a leader and earns everyone's loyalty in the end: even Zaeed's, when Miranda split and took Zaeed for revenge while Jacob rescued the refinery workers. (And because Miranda dies, no Jack-Miranda loyalty spat to fail...).


I had a musing that Commander Shepard had since been used by the Collectors to form the Human Reaper avatar. Part final-boss, part Jacob stepping out of the Commander's shadow once and for all.

For the final choice, I think 'Hardened' Jacob would take it: as the successor to Shepard's quest to stop the Reapers, he doesn't have the luxury of turning down any ally, or any asset. But afterwards, he does a variation of 'I quit': Jacob isn't just going to wait and take orders from the Illusive Man, but he's going to take the Normandy out and look for ways to fight the Reapers... whether TIM gives him that permission or not.





Anonymous...


Hmm... I think that last decision would be a real pivotal one for Jacob. I guess I can see him going either way. You know, I like Jacob as a person. He's a nice guy, he's smart, and reliable and trustworthy. As a character though he is definitely a little boring. Bioware really should have played up his "let's spill drinks" side and given him more of a thirst for combat. Have him eager before each mission to get into the action, not crossing his arms and musing about their chances.

He definitely should have been a bit more relaxed and not so uptight. Though I never played his game so I don't know how in or out of character that would be.

Anyway...

I'm curious, how does Jacob handle the situation on Freedom's Progress? What stops Tali and the quarians from opening fire?

I've always thought that would have be a fascinating situation for anyone but Shepard. Imagine if you were playing as Jacob or some other Cerberus operative and when that moment came there was a Renegade interrupt to gun down the quarians before they could open fire on you?

Without Shepard's reputation, how does Jacob gain access to clan Urdnot? Does he wake up Grunt? Wreav at least seems unwilling to let any alien but Shepard set foot there.


Dean said...

Vis a vis Freedom's Progress, Kai Leng does. More specifically, Kai Leng, with his super N7 skills, hears Quarians present, flanks them from the other side of the building, and 'talking' starts when the Quarians realize they'd be shot from both sides. Jacob plays mediator, but it's far more tense.

For the Freedom's Progress choice, the open, outright, and unapologetic betrayal of Cerberus by the Quarians (by Tali) really leaves no question about Veetor... but Jacob allows Tali to accompany him into Cerberus custody. Tali goes, not having any Shepard to trust in, and her presence allows her to fix Veetor's suit and greatly reduce the trauma.


Access to Clan Urdnot becomes 'TIM pulls favors/does favors to allow access, but the Krogan make no promises about safety.' Wrex is the head honcho, and he's a bit more willing to be... tolerant.

Grunt is woken up. Jacob does a non-persuade recruitment, and doesn't take down the Thresher Maw.