145 réponses à ce sujet

[BFBHLC]

[quote]Reynen Starfyre wrote...

1: You don't want  competeting sites because you want to have to force people to register here so your marketing department can use all that information.  (Don't even try to lie to me about it, I know several people there.  It's the same kind of crap EA tried to pull when I attended the promo launch ceremony at CA for Ultima X Odessey with Origin.)  When I was speaking to the desiger of UO, he talked about a central system similiar to this for that game, and marketing director for EA at the time I spoke to also commented on the idea.

[/quote]

He's correct and his credentials, so far, check out.

[quote]Reynen Starfyre wrote...
2: Fix your registration bugs and perhaps more people WILL use this site.  I've got over 2,000 people at my site who ARE UNABLE TO REGISTER HERE because of EA/ Bioware registration bugs, one includes my staff member.  When you ignore these people where else do you expect them to go?  Unless of course they don't matter and you dont mind giving them the finger.
[/quote]

Astorax isn't anyone of importance and is only a moderator, not an official representative of EA or BioWare, although he should act as such, he didn't do very well in that post of his.
[/quote]

[quote]Reynen Starfyre wrote...
3: I know bioware and EA want to have total control over their games and all mods associated with it.  I don't exepct anything less as those who have power want more power.  However this site is rigged and mods don't get a fair shake here.  Honestly how many nude mods are going to allow here?  I think we both know the answer to that one. That means you will DISCRIMINATE against mods you don't like, or their creators.
[/quote]

Well, what do you expect? Everyone you worked for - Westwood, Origin, etc. has been utterly DESTROYED by EA. You expected BioWare to hold out forever? Anyways, it's good to see someone who has been around as long as I have. /salute :happy:

[BFBHLC]

[Insert Closed Topic Here]



^If I were moderator, I'd have closed this topic right here due to the hostilities involved.

[Astorax]

Giskard44, I'll take it kindly that you don't put words in my mouth.



I have not, nor will I ever say, don't use/visit 3rd party sites.



Ever.



I'm actually quite offended that you'd try to say that I did. Let me say it again, since you clearly missed it the first time.



I LIKE 3RD PARTY SITES.



You read it this time?



Seriously, selective comprehension ftw.



Your assertion that wikis are usually incorrect is also flawed...quite the contrary, most of the active wikis (note, the operative word there is active) are self correcting and maintain a relatively high level of accuracy. For a good example, as much as I hate to say it, go check out wowwiki.com. It's the comprehensive wiki for everything World of Warcraft related. It's HORRIFICALLY accurate to a huge extent (more lore than you ever wanted to know...ever). It's also one of the most actively edited wikis on the internet in the history of wikis.



My point again, is not to poopoo 3rd party sites for general useage, but instead, I'm arguing for a comprehensive, central location for tutorials and guides so that people have a solid place to learn from point a to b to c for what they want to be doing modding-wise.



That's it. No agenda, no "social site ftw" no, "3rd parties suck" none of that. I want one place to go to in order to discover what I need to in order to do what I need to do with the toolset and such to mod what I want.



A point was made (sorry I don't have in front of me who made the point) that innovation can come from discussion, particularly through PMs and forums that won't be found on a wiki. And I 100% agree...however, once that breakthrough is made, my argument is that it is then added to the wiki. That's it. Not that the wiki becomes the ONLY place where such things are discussed at all, but that once any discoveries are made, they're documented in one place. If it's the wiki, fantastic, if another site emerges as the clear central repository, that's fine too, but in the meantime, the wiki is already very fleshed out and has a LOT of good info there, so that's why I'm arguing to make that the place to go.

[Astorax]

BFBHLC wrote...

[Insert Closed Topic Here]

^If I were moderator, I'd have closed this topic right here due to the hostilities involved.

To be fair, a lot of the hostility was born from a poorly chosen word on my part, so I can hardly close the thread because I messed up.

Almost all the posts here have been very constructive, on topic, and good discourse.  People are passionate about this topic because there are a few folks that have put HUGE amounts of work into these projects.  I get that.  And I respect it enough to let the discussion go as long as people aren't slinging mud at each other.

[JJM152]

A point was made (sorry I don't have in front of me who made the point) that innovation can come from discussion, particularly through PMs and forums that won't be found on a wiki.

That's not even really 100% true. Every Wiki page has a discussion talk-back tab on it. Just go to the main page and click on "Discussion" and you'll see people talking about the page.



Now, if you could PM people by clicking on their name in the Discussion Thread (or have it link directly to their Social Site profile) that would be freaking sweet.



In any case, Astorax I agree with you in principle (and practice). Personally I think it's better to just close this thread now before it devolves any further. I don't feel that you've been particularly challenging to people, but I do see that a couple of guys have gotten their feathers ruffled over what they perceive as a Bioware supported challenge to their little nerd fiefdoms.

[Astorax]

Now now, no need to be antagonistic. That will devolve the discussion.

[Proleric]

The third-party site owners are doing a superb job of persuading serious contributors to stick with Bioware

That suits me fine. As a module author, I need clear-cut agreement upfront that building materials I download can be shared with players, which only this site's terms offer at present.

So, maybe I should just sit back and let this happen, but I'm disturbed by the continued repetition of implausible allegations in these threads, which is starting to feel like a misinformation campaign. Astorax is an extremist? Bioware is trying to stop other sites? Adult material isn't allowed here? Simply not supported by any known facts!

Now why do I get an uneasy feeling when I hear that "the people that get things done" are behind some of this?

[DarthParametric]

Astorax, I get where you are coming from with wanting to see a central repository for tutorials and misc modding info. It's a noble goal, but you are pissing into the wind on two fronts.

First off, the social site is utter crap. Bioware/EA seriously needs to clear out their IT department - all their recent website implementations have been terrible.

Second, there will always be a portion of any community that wants to take a more active role in controlling and shaping their own destiny. And that's only going to happen when you hold the reins - i.e. running your own site. That's doubly true when you sink an enormous amount of unpaid time and effort into figuring out the vagaries of an undocumented piece of software.

As a modder with absolutely zero aspirations of running my own site/community, I certainly agree that a central info repository would make my life easier. But if Bioware wanted that then Bioware should have written all the tutorials. Instead, they dumped the toolset onto the community and said "go figure it out yourselves". What exactly did they expect was going to happen?

[ladydesire]

giskard44 wrote...

ChewyGumball wrote...

Not my words  

Astorax has never said do not use DAmods or Nexus or any other site. He HAS said that posting tutorials on sites other than the wiki hurts the community rather than strengthens it. Again, you seem to be arguing a point that was made by no one but yourself.

I personally don't think posting ONLY on the wiki is the best option for the community, but PURPOSELY NOT posting on the wiki is the WORST option.

REALLY!!!!

Btw i run a modders support site that gets its visitors from the tutorials I write and host on my site. If those tutorials are everywhere, I get no visitors and my site closes and I lose out. Which is what you intend to try to do so this does kill off my site.

Thanks for the confirmation.

I think I'll stop supporting the wiki and stop supporting the social site, given what has been said, its not in my best interests to do so anymore.

How would linking to your site from the wiki (what was done for the Beyond Ferelden blog and tutorials, for example) harm your site? It might actually gain you more readers in the long run, because those of us that don't like hunting for tutorials would be able to find them from our preferred starting point.

[JJM152]

ladydesire wrote...

giskard44 wrote...

ChewyGumball wrote...

Not my words  

Astorax has never said do not use DAmods or Nexus or any other site. He HAS said that posting tutorials on sites other than the wiki hurts the community rather than strengthens it. Again, you seem to be arguing a point that was made by no one but yourself.

I personally don't think posting ONLY on the wiki is the best option for the community, but PURPOSELY NOT posting on the wiki is the WORST option.

REALLY!!!!

Btw i run a modders support site that gets its visitors from the tutorials I write and host on my site. If those tutorials are everywhere, I get no visitors and my site closes and I lose out. Which is what you intend to try to do so this does kill off my site.

Thanks for the confirmation.

I think I'll stop supporting the wiki and stop supporting the social site, given what has been said, its not in my best interests to do so anymore.

How would linking to your site from the wiki (what was done for the Beyond Ferelden blog and tutorials, for example) harm your site? It might actually gain you more readers in the long run, because those of us that don't like hunting for tutorials would be able to find them from our preferred starting point.

Logic has no place in a flame war young lady! -20 internets for you!

[ladydesire]

DarthParametric wrote...

As a modder with absolutely zero aspirations of running my own site/community, I certainly agree that a central info repository would make my life easier. But if Bioware wanted that then Bioware should have written all the tutorials. Instead, they dumped the toolset onto the community and said "go figure it out yourselves". What exactly did they expect was going to happen?

With respect, I understand why Bioware didn't do this; it takes time to write things out and test them fully to make sure that everything works. A lot of what was on the wiki to begin with was based more on either the production toolset (the version that Bioware used to build the game) or the close beta versions, which were quite different than the version we got in how they did things.

[tmp7704]

DarthParametric wrote...

As a modder with absolutely zero aspirations of running my own site/community, I certainly agree that a central info repository would make my life easier. But if Bioware wanted that then Bioware should have written all the tutorials.

That makes about much sense as a request a library should come with a bunch of dedicated writers and a printing press to fill its shelves...

[giskard44]

Astorax

I like you Astorax but not on this topic.

Also your clearly confusing me for somebody else, go back over my posts and find the place where I say you do not use third party sites, I think you find that was said by somebody else, not me.

I apologuise if you think I have been putting words in to your mouth but I have seen you say words to the effect "do not use this site" twice now, once in the nexus thread and once in this thread. Each time there was an uproar about it.  Given your position, this can be seen as a campaign against 3rd party sites. 

Whether you intended that or not makes no difference mate, that is how its percieved by some.

I think you should stop saying that in site announce threads in the future and promote your wiki ideas in their own threads. Your entitled to persue your plans just as much as anybody else, and I see no harm in you doing it from a thread of your own. Its a better way to organize things and get feedback anyway.

I will now continue this via pm, your campaign has taken a dangerous direction in my opinion and I want to have this out with you without starting a war of words and losing the point, so expect a pm from me soon mate.

PS I am not your enemy here, I just strongly disagree with your approach.

[DarthParametric]

tmp7704 wrote...

That makes about much sense as a request a library should come with a bunch of dedicated writers and a printing press to fill its shelves...

It makes no sense that a company that makes a piece of software should not also write the manual for it? And that when they don't they want to dictate the manner in which those that do write the manual distribute it?

I understand why Bioware didn't provide documentation, but you can't have it both ways. If you just chuck the toolset out into the wild then you have to expect that anything resulting from the community is going to be done in an extremely haphazard and fragmented manner.

[Challseus]

giskard44 wrote...

ChewyGumball wrote...

Not my words  

Astorax has never said do not use DAmods or Nexus or any other site. He HAS said that posting tutorials on sites other than the wiki hurts the community rather than strengthens it. Again, you seem to be arguing a point that was made by no one but yourself.

I personally don't think posting ONLY on the wiki is the best option for the community, but PURPOSELY NOT posting on the wiki is the WORST option.

REALLY!!!!

Btw i run a modders support site that gets its visitors from the tutorials I write and host on my site. If those tutorials are everywhere, I get no visitors and my site closes and I lose out. Which is what you intend to try to do so this does kill off my site.

Thanks for the confirmation.

I think I'll stop supporting the wiki and stop supporting the social site, given what has been said, its not in my best interests to do so anymore.

Now we're getting somewhere. Why didn't you say that in the first place?

With regards to Astorax's comments, yes, the END result could be that no one would go to your site. But you know damn well that wasn't what he meant with is initial comment. He was clearly talking about Nexus and DAMods, who do other things besides tutorials (hosting mods, forums, etc.). He even kept saying that over and over again.

So instead of twisting his words and his "intended" meaning, you should have come out and said this hours ago. Something like so:

Listen Astorax, I humbly disagree with your comments, because my personal site would be adversely affected. Tutorials are one of the main reasons people come here, and if they were gone, my site wouldn't be used as much. As such, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Then, there could have been more back and forths. But just saying over and over again that he is trying to kill off 3rd party sites (again, I *guess* that could be the end result for *some* sites) doesn't seem the optimal decision, in my opinion.

For the record, I sympathize with your feelings.

Modifié par Challseus, 13 décembre 2009 - 04:16 .

[tmp7704]

DarthParametric wrote...

It makes no sense that a company that makes a piece of software should not also write the manual for it?

It makes no sense to demand a single party --no matter how well experienced-- should do all the work for a site which works on basis of gathering contributions from multiple authors into a single, centralized spot.

[giskard44]

I have pm'd Astorax about this, explained it privately.

I think all of this was completely unnecessary and common sense solutions have existed here the whole time. I am speaking with Astorax about this privately and if we agree, I'll be supporting the wiki, if we dont, I wont.

Its as simple at that.

Modifié par giskard44, 13 décembre 2009 - 05:01 .

[TimelordDC]

Astorax's point is entirely valid. A central place for tutorials/how-tos is the way to go for the future. It wasn't possible before (eg: in NWN) since the community concept was just taking off at that time but with this game, it is possible with the social site.

giskard44 wrote...
...
Btw modders always have to search
for stuff, always have to dig deep for details, nothing is handed to us
on a plate as you seem to be demanding. Searching and research is part
of the journey and those who cannot do it or will not do it will NEVER
make any mods.
...

This is a flawed argument on so many fronts. It was like that before but there is no reason why it should continue to be do so. Having everything on the wiki or linked to from the wiki will make this easier on the modders -> not everyone has the time to dedicate 4 hours after work every day to modding...that doesn't mean they shouldn't aspire to create mods. You are just making the process tougher while Bioware is trying to consolidate all the information in one place to ensure it is easier for the modders to go about their work.

[DLAN_Immortality]

giskard: instead of PMing a mere moderator (sorry if it's sounding badly, Astorax) why don't you PM a Bioware representative? They'd have more to say about copyrights and whatnot, not to mention that their word is official. Astorax can only speak as a user, not as a Bioware representative (I think).

[giskard44]

DLAN_Immortality wrote...

giskard: instead of PMing a mere moderator (sorry if it's sounding badly, Astorax) why don't you PM a Bioware representative? They'd have more to say about copyrights and whatnot, not to mention that their word is official. Astorax can only speak as a user, not as a Bioware representative (I think).

Good question, mostly because Astorax cares deeply about this and whilst I disagree on his approach strongly. I do agree on many other things. Also he is activily trying to make this work (admittedly badly), where as others are not. So talking to Astorax first and ironing out the bumps, then letting him talk to bioware is a much better idea than going over his head.

[DarthParametric]

tmp7704 wrote...

It makes no sense to demand a single party --no matter how well experienced-- should do all the work for a site which works on basis of gathering contributions from multiple authors into a single, centralized spot.

I wasn't demanding anything. I was saying that Bioware choosing to leave it to the community to write the documentation will inevitably lead to said documentation being widely dispersed, fragmented and unorganised, and any expectation to the contrary on their part (or anyone else's) would be naïve. If they wanted to have a central repository then the only way to achieve that would be to do it themselves. Expecting their userbase of thousands of people of multiple cultures and creeds spread out across the planet to all band together into one harmonious group all working together towards a single goal of a unified wiki is wishful thinking. What you are going to end up with is exactly what we have the makings of now - various tidbits spread across multiple sites, doubling up, inaccuracies, contradictions, etc.

As I said, I'm all for a one-stop-shop. It's just never going to happen.

[Astorax]

As has been mentioned, I'm chatting with giskard44 via PMs, so I won't repond that here...



However, question to DarhParametric:



Why not? Why couldn't the wiki be the one place people need to go to in order to find out everything they need to know?

[ladydesire]

DarthParametric wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

That makes about much sense as a request a library should come with a bunch of dedicated writers and a printing press to fill its shelves...

It makes no sense that a company that makes a piece of software should not also write the manual for it? And that when they don't they want to dictate the manner in which those that do write the manual distribute it?

I understand why Bioware didn't provide documentation, but you can't have it both ways. If you just chuck the toolset out into the wild then you have to expect that anything resulting from the community is going to be done in an extremely haphazard and fragmented manner.

If they had stuck us with something like what the NWN2 toolset had, I would agree with you; however, Bioware took the time to create a site where the community could post what they had learned, or link to where someone had posted such information and made it available to the community from the toolset itself. Bioware has listened, and continues to listen to this community, though sometimes I think some members of the community want to believe that EA owning Bioware is affecting what Bioware does in a negative manner, even though there is no evidence that past EA practices are going to continue as they did.

[DarthParametric]

Astorax wrote...

Why not? Why couldn't the wiki be the one place people need to go to in order to find out everything they need to know?

It could. It's just completely unreasonable to assume that a diverse and disparate community will, of their own volition, band together to make that a reality.

[Astorax]

DarthParametric wrote...

Astorax wrote...

Why not? Why couldn't the wiki be the one place people need to go to in order to find out everything they need to know?

It could. It's just completely unreasonable to assume that a diverse and disparate community will, of their own volition, band together to make that a reality.

They already are...check out the contribution list of the wiki.