145 réponses à ce sujet

[ChewyGumball]

which is exactly why he has responded to this topic as he has, he is trying to steer the community onto a better path which would not be taken otherwise.

[tmp7704]

DarthParametric wrote...

It could. It's just completely unreasonable to assume that a diverse and disparate community will, of their own volition, band together to make that a reality.

Unreasonable as you may find it, Wikipedia does exist and it's a result of contributions from much more diverse and disparate communities. If the modders for a single game can't be bothered to stick together just the same even though in comparison they're far more homogenous group then frankly, they deserve all the mess they'll get instead.

[JJM152]

tmp7704 wrote...

DarthParametric wrote...

It could. It's just completely unreasonable to assume that a diverse and disparate community will, of their own volition, band together to make that a reality.

Unreasonable as you may find it, Wikipedia does exist and it's a result of contributions from much more diverse and disparate communities. If the modders for a single game can't be bothered to stick together just the same even though in comparison they're far more homogenous group then frankly, they deserve all the mess they'll get instead.

This thread actually inspired me to contribute to the wiki!

[R3v3r3nD420]

Man it seems I see more and more mod authors that think they have a sense of entitlement because of what they offered the community. You know what? Nobody asked you to do it. Nobody made you do it. You CHOSE to. Stop acting like you're all entitled to fame and glory for something you CHOSE to do. You will get fame and glory if the users CHOOSE to give it to you. This goes for everyone, not just active members of this discussion.

Giskaard44, here is the reason why tutorials on your site, while beneficial and not a bad idea, fail over-all. I looked at your site. I looked at the 2 tutorials I found there on DA. They are riddled with numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes (I understand english may not be your native language, but you wrote it in english). I cant correct them on your site. I could if they were on the wiki. I didnt actually do the tutorials so there may be other mistakes I did not see yet, but again, if there are I cannot fix them while on your site.

<Edit>
While glancing back through those 2 tutorials, I found it hard to skim through and find the actual useful information thats mixed in with talk of such things as "BioWare Aliens", Global Warming, and seemingly self justifiable delusions. To take a quote: "2 weeks learning this stuff makes you write silly things, what else can I say"

My contstructive criticism: Leave the banter out of it and stick to the useful information. While mildly amusing, it detracts from the work.
</Edit>


I swear if I see another person *****ing and moaning because of a 3rd partys site traffic, that persons site and mods will be on my banned list. If you care more about a 3rd party sites traffic (your own or not), then you obviously dont really care about the community as a whole, and therefore I will not support you. Before I get flamed for this, just look back a couple pages where Giskaard threatened the same with the wiki. Its a 2-way street Giskaard.

I on the other hand care solely for the community. Any mods I make, or tutorials I may write, will be completely in the free domain, for anyone to use, repost, modify, or host whenever/wherever they want. The only thing I ever ask is that my original readmes for my mods be included with any modified versions so users can get support from the original author if they choose. I am not going to hold any of my projects to any kind exclusivity, nor will I expect any fame or glory from the community that they dont give freely of their own will.

If only everyone could care about the greater good rather than their e-go.

Modifié par R3v3r3nD420, 13 décembre 2009 - 11:59 .

[dunniteowl]

Wow!

You know, I'll be the first to offer that there are times when feathers get ruffled and responses come off poorly.  Guilty myself from time to time.

However, the Objective of having the tools and tutorials for learning how to do things in the toolset being one of centralized access is how it ought to be.  Recognize that I say Access, not depository.

The argument that wikis are not always accurate or are subject to 'misinformation' as a good reason to avoid them is putting the cat out after it's gone tinkle.  This is really an absurd angle to come from.  If you have accurate information and can link it in the wiki, or rewrite the information so it is accurate, isn't that better than tightly hugging your own "More Correct Manuscript" and saying, "They won't get their filthy hands on my purity, they have to come to ME!"  I mean come on.

Sure, you got Google.  Sure there are always going to be 3rd party (I like to call them fansites, myself) sites.  Not an issue.  The issue is, do you make folks in the Community register to see and download your stuff?  You can, sure.  There's really nothing wrong with it.  Just because that's the way it's been doesn't mean that's the way it should be or has to be.  You have a more advantageous choice that involves sharing.  Isn't that a good thing?  Or is the opinion of some here that the poor unwashed and uninformed masses don't deserve to have some things?

However, if you're going to claim to be a 'doer' and an active Community member, then doesn't it behoove you to act in the interests of the Community -- even when doing so might be counter to the interests of your own personal site or ego?  And, honestly, when you act in the interest of a Community that's growing, you don't throw rash accusations at other members and claim you're the reason things get done.  Wow. 

All that aside.  Having a wiki and a social site, in this context, attempting to come up to speed at the same time as the Community is provided with the game and the toolset is a much better proposition than the completely fragmented and disjointed way NWN got off to a start.  It's better than the entirely Community sponsored methods that were sort of put in place pre-release to NWN2.

The trick here is that, you can't disregard the changes in the way things are being done and then casually dismiss the idea of bringing things together out of fear your site might die off.  Your site (and that's a general you, not a specific you) might die off anyway.  For every surviving site out there in the next two years, I am willing to bet there will (or would have been if this social site wasn't here at startup) be at least a dozen or so that start, halt and die off.

Projects are going to start, then drop off the face of the earth.  Sites are going to get started, blogging will happen, excitement will be generated.  And most of that will wane, fade and disappear completely.  That, too, is part of the internet.

However, the wiki concept, if used by the Community to aid the Community in finding, using, linking and correcting information whenever possible can act as the glue that assists in unifying that Community.

Oh, and just to be clear here.  I do run a third party site.  It's called the NeverWinter Citadel Project.  I do moderate over there and on the NWN2 Official Forums.  I participate in several other forums that I feel exemplify Community minded service.  I've been doing this sort of thing in the NWN/2 Community for the last 4 years.  Before that I had a pretty decent stint on the AOL forums for the first NeverWinter Nights MMO as well as for Mechwarrior 2.

If my site were to dry up and blow away due to lack of interest, would I blame those 'idiots' out there who don't appreciate what I do?  Hell no.  I would sit back and attempt to objectively analyze what mistakes this idiot made that ended the site's life.  Because, if people don't come, there's something wrong with the site and the most glaring issue with any site is the way it's managed.  So, having links to the wiki, cross linking to other complimentary sites, helping out others whenever possible and MAKING INFORMATION openly available, no strings attached, is the best way to engender a long lived site with a Community Minded attitude.

Anything that prevents a Community member, registered or not, from getting access to information about how to better themselves in the modding portion of the game, or providing them with player tips, etc, is in the best interest of the Community as a whole, no matter where it comes from.  And the less hoops the Community member has to jump through the better.

So what about this.  Your site, call it Site X, has a set of building tutorials that are the shizzle.  You have to be  a member of that site to access the tutorials.  You don't post the tutorials on the wiki or even cross link them.  Is this the act of a doer?  Is this the action of a Community member who gets things done?  Sure, it could be.  But it's not very civic minded.  So how about just adding a link to the information with the proviso that you have to register to download the tutorial?  If people really don't like that, you'll know soon enough.

Hey, its your site, so do what you wish.  But -- don't blame the Community if folks complain about it.  It's a valid point.  It's no more or less valid than holding onto the information to keep it accurate and pristine.  If holding onto it in this fashion is what you deem in the best interests of the site, then by all means, go ahead.  And if folks don't like it and say so, you have to bear the brunt of that discontent as a recourse of the choice you made.  Your best bet is to smile calmly and say, "Thank you for your opinion."

This thread is a good example of how to and how not to conduct your online discourse.  This is a medium where we can stop and take a breath.  We don't have to respond immediately to things that make our hackles rise or our blood boil.  We can, but we don't have to.  And, if you deem your public image as important to you as your efforts in the Community, then stopping a moment to be dispassionate about someone else's comments, and recognizing it's entirely possible they may have been off kilter or poorly prepared, could mean the difference between this near flame fest and a more polite and civil discussion about the merits of 3rd party sites, joining in a centralized effort to make the Community stronger, or the plusses and minuses of making the effort of getting started to make modules or modifcations to the game's tools and play easier by cooperative and open source ideals versus the closed shop point of view in that Community.

I read this thread the whole way through and I have to honestly say, some of the responses in here by supposed Able Bodied Community Members, leave me feeling as if I just stepped outside during a Blue Norther.  Leaders don't rule through fear and live long.  They don't make threats and tell others they are idiots and hypocrites for disliking how others express their sentiments.  Bad, bad form.

I expect better than that from folks who either consider themselve Community leaders or members of merit in a Community.  It's not much of a game if, when the chips are down, you'll just take your bat and ball and go home.

To those who aspire to leadership, either by design, effort or works of merit:  You can act however you wish.  Just don't take it too badly, or as everyone else's fault, if no-one wishes to play with you when you belittle and demean anyone who doesn't agree with you or your actions.

best regards,
dunniteowl

[Proleric]

The nice thing about a wiki is that it fosters a community of peers. Who needs leaders?

[dvn4774]

What people need to realise is that the Wiki is potentially the best place for tutorials and such. However, when the people who want to make tutorials are putting them up all over the place, that is just so much wasted effort. Too much scope for errors and redundancy. On top of that, it is more difficult to find the right information. If, instead, all those helpful people just update the wiki,  they build on each other's efforts. This makes the wiki as it should be.

This does not hold for mods. Generally, the more places hosting mods the better, especially when most mods are on most of them. People then get to use whichever suits them best. On top of that, you are not reliant on one place to get mods, so if your favourite site dies, there are others. There are plenty more advantages to it, and not many significant disadvantages. Anyone really interested in finding a particular mod will go to all available sources, not stick to one.

[giskard44]

R3v3r3nD420:



Actually mate its not a two way street, its a one way street, we do all the work, you reap all the benefits.

[FollowTheGourd]

So why do any of the work if you get nothing out of it? Nobody's God's gift to modding and other people are capable of figuring out things themselves, too.

What's the point if you feel hostility towards players? Yes, some will "leech", be demanding, or commit other capital offences - but who cares? Either you mod for your own enjoyment or it's for some portfolio and after putting in the requisite time it'll hopefully all soon be over... and then you can complain about your coworkers and how your boss doesn't show any appreciation.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 14 décembre 2009 - 02:59 .

[tmp7704]

giskard44 wrote...

Actually mate its not a two way street, its a one way street, we do all the work, you reap all the benefits.

By sharing the knowledge you make it possible for other people to create content you might wind up using. And don't tell me you never found anything useful in contributions made by the others?

Your "us" and "them" division just doesn't work; the modders do 'reap benefits' from work of other modders just like the end users do.

[giskard44]

I have finished my chat with Astorax.

Whilst we agree on a lot of things and learned a lot about each of our views. Bur he will not compromise and owners of modding sites like mine cannot afford too.

So I'll be leaving you all to it.
Expect to see me kicking around as forum user but not doing a lot else around here.

What next......

I know most of you are sounding off and will do absolutely nothing to help Astorax with his end goal. I know those who complained about not wanting to mod for  4 hours after work will never make a single mod and I know those who do not like spending 2 seconds on google finding things will never like spending 2 hours searching for things on the wiki.

But some of you with brains will understand the mountain others have laid before you and will have been serious about helping on the wiki. You will know it is a lot easier climbing that mountain if you can come to the guild for help.

Well you can, this is not about what do you with our tutorials, its about what others demand we third party sites owners do with ours. So if you want my help, just drop by and ask.

If i or my site users know the answer, will help you.
That ends my interest in this thread.

Merry Christmas

Modifié par giskard44, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[tmp7704]

giskard44 wrote...

If i or my site users know the answer, will help you.

Just a note, but it appears your site is not accessible at the moment (traceroute reports permanent timeout somewhere past London)  Which makes the whole thing rather ironic since the net effect of this argument is, some of the information is simply not available to people, thanks to misguided perception it's some sort of a "competition".

[Astorax]

It's not a competition at all.



It's all about making information available easily. Period.



He feels his site offers that better than the wiki ever can or will. I respect his opinion and efforts even as I respectfully disagree with it. That's where we came to.



I encourage people to move past this and work towards building the community the best way we can by trying to get the information out there. Bioware has set the bar for modders VERY high with this toolset. It's not easy to understand and it's definitely not intuitive how to set it up properly to create your work.



The more collaboration we can foster, the better, and the more information we can get out there, the better.



I encourage anyone that's already dug deep into the inner workings of the toolset to make the effort to get that information out there, via the forums here and the wiki.



Fansite owners will do the same in their own way.

[Ainiana]

giskard44 wrote...

I have finished my chat with Astorax.

Whilst we agree on a lot of things and learned a lot about each of our views. Bur he will not compromise and owners of modding sites like mine cannot afford too.

So I'll be leaving you all to it.
Expect to see me kicking around as forum user but not doing a lot else around here.

What next......

I know most of you are sounding off and will do absolutely nothing to help Astorax with his end goal. I know those who complained about not wanting to mod for  4 hours after work will never make a single mod and I know those who do not like spending 2 seconds on google finding things will never like spending 2 hours searching for things on the wiki.

But some of you with brains will understand the mountain others have laid before you and will have been serious about helping on the wiki. You will know it is a lot easier climbing that mountain if you can come to the guild for help.

Well you can, this is not about what do you with our tutorials, its about what others demand we third party sites owners do with ours. So if you want my help, just drop by and ask.

If i or my site users know the answer, will help you.
That ends my interest in this thread.

Merry Christmas

Bolded the 2 points i plan to comment on.

Firstly i do not believe it is fair to publicly put 'fault' on Astorax following a 'private' conversation that none else but you and Astorax was witness to. All we know on this situation is that you have chosen to 'bow out' of the social site community as a contributor, following Astorax and yourself not agreeing to terms you have laid out. We do not know what the terms are, how far you/he was willing to compromise etc. Due to not knowing the details and the lack of evidence you have to call on (with it all being a private conversation) i would recommend not publically blaming the other party

Second Bolded point...
I think most people use this site and will continue to as it improves, it is the largest community and source of information for the game and the toolset, those like myself will likely use multiple sources of information anyway, but my first call if i run into a hitch with my mod-in-progress would be the wiki, then toolset forums here due to the number of people that call this home. The site/forums are by no means perfect, but they do work well for many.

I am sorry that they do not work for you, but i do think its a bit bad form to try and persuade others to abandon a site that works well, based on your personal opinions.

With that said, you do have a nice site and i wish you well with your projects

[Astorax]

Ainiana, it wasn't so much (at least, my interpretation of what was going on) trying to find a compromise, so much as discussion of the different mediums for getting information out.



We have fundamentally different ideas on what the best way to disseminate the information is. His belief is that google and distributed information is more efficient than having a central, community-organized repository.



There wasn't going to ever be a compromise when the fundamental belief is so disparate. It is what it is, I honestly do wish him well and hope he's successful in his ventures.

[tmp7704]

Astorax wrote...

It's not a competition at all.

That's how i see it personally, but giskard appears to view it as one or at least chooses to word it in such manner: http://social.biowar...254790/2#431077 "I know this because I have been a competitor of his before and it appears I am a competitor now."

If that's what tickle's one's fancy then it's fine, i was just pointing out the drawback to it. Though i have no illusion it's going to change anyone's mind regarding this matter.

[ladydesire]

I still fail to see how linking to externally hosted tutorials will kill the sites that host them...

[FollowTheGourd]

Beats me, but here's what I've been able to piece together out of this when people aren't being accused of trolling and other serious crimes against humanity: They want their communities to thrive - I don't think anybody would begrudge them that (let's not rehash that old debate now). I believe the thinking behind it is that exclusive content - tutorials being the hot ticket item - brings in visitors to their site and if they were to instead support the social site and wiki, then they'd lose their exclusivity even if their community forums were linked to from their articles put on the wiki instead.

Well... that's their prerogative, but if it's going to be *that* black and white, then I think it is being selfish on some level in that there's nothing stopping one from keeping popular exclusive content on one's site while still contributing factual information elsewhere. Besides, some of the things you write elsewhere could serve as effective advertizements for your site - with people wanting more of what you have to offer.

Say you write tutorials for a specific audience in mind or in a certain understandable style... Maybe it would just be clutter on the wiki to have ten different tutorials going over the same thing; that might be better suited to a specific author's site. But why not take the salient facts from it and help contribute to a central body of knowledge, even if it's in dry wiki-manual form? People would still flock to your site for your take on it. Without it being plagiarism, people will read and understand the exclusive content from your site and perhaps take the kernel from it and hopefully use what they've learned to teach others and write their own tutorials or wiki-updates anyway. Plus if wikis are so hard to find information on, what's the worry then?

It doesn't *have* to be at the social site, although I don't know of another Dragon Age wiki for the toolset off-hand... I'm not here to promote some BW/EA agenda, but at the same time why not use the resources available? And that includes the developers and other knowledgeable people here.

Also, one of the things that I've actually liked about the BioBoards is that the mods here appear to be human and have their own opinions and foibles like the rest of us. What they say doubtlessly carries more weight behind it because of their position, but I haven't seen them abuse that... maybe others can say they have, but that's neither here nor there to this thread. I don't recall Astorax giving ultimatums to anybody about this. It could be like other sites where the only time you see a "mod icon" in a forum thread is when the thread is locked or somebody got banned. Maybe the mods there post under other accounts to avoid things blowing out of proportion, but personally I find it ultimately friendlier that they actively participate.

Partly, this has seemed like an excuse for some to pick up their ball and go home. Apparently there was nothing overly wrong with using the site or wiki before this "conspiracy" unravelled... but now there are nebulous demands for concessions from BioWare/EA, of which the only thing I've gleaned is the desire for a forum sticky with a page of links to third-party sites .

If that's what it is, why not come out into the open and say so? If there's more to it... why not explain that too? It would beat posting one-sided blog entries that seem more like something to drag up years from now as ammunition against perceived attackers.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 15 décembre 2009 - 01:26 .

[Proleric]

The heart of the matter is that the Bioware site is a sharing community. The other sites foster exclusive behaviour based on individual ownership.

It's an irreconcilable difference in philosophy, which comes across at every level, from simple concepts like the wiki, to the protection offered to authors by the terms of service.

The Bioware community is like working for a large, friendly corporation in which we help one another in a common enterprise. Exclusive communities are like a loose assocation of smallholders in a dog-in-the-manager, dog-eat-dog world where no one makes money (except maybe the host).

Or, if you prefer, the Bioware community is like a public park which is for everyone to have fun in, whereas the exclusive communities are like a neighbourhood of suburban lawns where we keep off the grass unless we're invited to a barbeque.

A space can be public or private, but it can't easily be both - we have to choose.

It's a pity that some have elected to set up exclusive sites instead of contributing to the hard-working, sharing community here, but we are where we are. I'm sure their decision to stay away from this forum is for the best.

[Dark0ne-]

The heart of the matter is that the Bioware site is a sharing community. The other sites foster exclusive behaviour based on individual ownership.

It's an irreconcilable difference in philosophy, which comes across at every level, from simple concepts like the wiki, to the protection offered to authors by the terms of service.

The Bioware community is like working for a large, friendly corporation in which we help one another in a common enterprise. Exclusive communities are like a loose assocation of smallholders in a dog-in-the-manager, dog-eat-dog world where no one makes money (except maybe the host).

Or, if you prefer, the Bioware community is like a public park which is for everyone to have fun in, whereas the exclusive communities are like a neighbourhood of suburban lawns where we keep off the grass unless we're invited to a barbeque.

A space can be public or private, but it can't easily be both - we have to choose.

It's a pity that some have elected to set up exclusive sites instead of contributing to the hard-working, sharing community here, but we are where we are. I'm sure their decision to stay away from this forum is for the best.

/facepalm

BioWare Propaganda corps, representing

Modifié par Dark0ne-, 15 décembre 2009 - 12:06 .

[Proleric]

Dark0ne- wrote...

BioWare Propaganda corps, representing

 I'm certainly not speaking for Bioware. They're generally wary of any edgy discussion.

For what it's worth, you strike me as a decent guy. I appreciate that Nexus is in a cleft stick, having adopted an exclusive ownership model long ago. However, if you'll forgive me, it strikes me that you came into the Dragon Age game without researching the market. What you've done, unintentionally, is to drive a coach-and-horses through our most cherished community values. Don't be surprised if there is loyalty to a well-loved and respected way of doing things.

Modifié par Proleric1, 15 décembre 2009 - 12:31 .

[DarthParametric]

Proleric1 wrote...

[...] our most cherished community values.

And how deeply cherished they must be indeed, having been fostered in the vast expanse of weeks since DA was released.

[Ainiana]

DarthParametric wrote...

Proleric1 wrote...

[...] our most cherished community values.

And how deeply cherished they must be indeed, having been fostered in the vast expanse of weeks since DA was released.

Some people have been playing/following bioware games considerably longer than DA )

[DarthParametric]

As I have myself. That has nothing to do with DA modders as a group however.